This is not meant to slam anyone.

[Atticus]

In the last week or so, we have lost Ed McMahon, Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett. Since I am a boomer, all of these people were a part of my life, so to speak, for decades. But, just "so to speak". I did not actually know them. By no stretch of the imagination were any of them friends. I enjoyed each of them as entertainers, and, certainly, Michael's music and moves were mighty fine.

That said, some of us reserve what we call "grief" for people who were a part of our REAL lives, not just pleasant people who occasionally brightened our spirits or lightened our load. We are blessed to have family and friends---friends we actually eat and drink and laugh and cry with---in our lives that, if they pass before we do, will cause us to grieve and cry and mourn. There deaths will cause us real pain. We will suffer irreparable loss at their leaving us.

I am sorry that these well-known folks died. All of us have lost something at their passing. But, if I "mourn" their passing, if I gnash my teeth and tear my hair and sob at the though of their deaths, what do I do when someone who touched my core, not just my surface, dies?

[havocmom]

1. There is too much melodrama because there is too little real

IMHO

edited for typo

[Skip Intro]

85. "Too little real," he yelled, into the virtual expanse...n/t

[havocmom]

94. Hey, I don't confuse online with in person

In person, I have less patience with melodrama.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. +1 K&R

:thumbsup:

[sandnsea]

3. But do grieve for Neda, right?

I can't even begin to comprehend the contradictory thinking that goes on in people's minds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Nobody is grieving for her, except her family

she became a symbol... and because she was in the wrong place at the right time.

I am sure those close to her, rather she be alive... call it a feeling

[JI7]

21. many people grieve for her

the feeling may not be the same as her family and others who knew her feel. but that doesn't mean others can't feel the sadness of someone losing their life the way they did.

[sandnsea]

24. Thank you

Because I was dumb-founded at that statement. I've met people who were completely emotionless when it came to people they don't know, I just didn't know there were so dang many of them - or that they'd all found their way to DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Being affected, to the point of grieving by a perfect stranger's death

is not a healthy response

Feeling sad over somebody's passing might be.

Perhaps you do not understand, but there is a difference between the grieving process... and sadness

Learn the difference.

I know I am not grieving for MJ, for Neda, for anybody... I know the difference between the grieving process and perhaps feeling a twinge of somebody died today.

Perhaps I know the difference and why this public display of grieve, I don't get

Maybe I should join you in the sackcloth and tearing my clothes off department then

[JI7]

42. how do you know how others are "grieving" ?

most of the people i saw were just remembering him by showing their favorite performances by him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I'll take their words for it

we have had people tell us here that they are grieving MJ death.

Now if they were relatives, or good friends, by all means, please do.

They are not.

Perhaps they are confusing the process with mere sadness, but I am nobody to deny it is happening.

[sandnsea]

52. A twinge?

Wow. You looked at that poor girl losing her 16 year old life with her blood flowing on the streets - and felt a "twinge"?

I know the grief process too. And I see it at play, denial, anger, bargaining... seen it all on this board. Don't expect to see any depression, acceptance will come by Monday. It isn't the same as the death of a family member. But there is some need to deny the attachment that I don't understand. These people brought us joy, I don't get how you don't grieve the loss of that joy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Believe it or not I knew EXACTLY what I was looking at

a young person lose her life.

Her passing wasn't hard in coming, but perhaps, I have seen that enough that it does not make me feel more than just some sadness

It was inhumanity of one person towards another.

Ever been to a war zone?

Ever debriefed survivors of a war zone? Or survivors of torture? Or taken care off patients who have suffered greatly and you still have to remain a professional? I dare say that was probably the first time you saw that. No thank to American TV but the intertubes.

Now if you need to honest to goodness grief, go for it. Just don't expect some of us to do it.

But i can tell you right now. The people grieving for her are her family. WHo incidentally have not been allowed to get the body back and kicked out of their house. Now that is something that any rational person should realize is a human right violation, just as the killing itself. But grief, for a stranger, no.

And if you think I have ice running in my veins, perhaps... imagine why?

These days I allow deep emotion for those I love, those CLOSE to me.

If you need to join the circus that is this grieving process, mostly pushed by your lovely MSM, go on, be happy, go for it. Nobody is stopping you. I just don't get it, and it ain't healthy, unless it is displaced grief.

[sandnsea]

63. If you're proud of what you wrote

Read it again. And again. Until you call somebody.

cya.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. What that is the truth?

And I can make a distinction between sadness and grief.

Apparently you can't

[HughMoran]

73. Well, there you go

She's clearly a superior person to you as she can distinguish between sadness and grief and you're incapable - inferior if you will.

:eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. No Hugh, that is the way we have been raised in this country

afraid of death, afraid of mortality and able to PUBLICLY grieve only when given permission

Think about it.

Even to grief people need permission.

I think a sociologist could write a couple papers on this.

And sadly many folks here don't get it either

But this is not about superiority or inferiority, ok. UNLESS YOU THINK IT IS

[HughMoran]

82. Your theory is all wet.

I really don't know what you're talking about - Keith is my generation as is Obama - it doesn't surprise me when people have similar reactions to events in this country. Perhaps you're just not getting it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. No I am missing it and I am your generation too

Perhaps I chose not to get involved in the drama that is the deaths of people I don't know from shinola

If that bothers you, so be it, obviously it does

[HughMoran]

93. Doesn't bother me at all

You're the one obsessing about this - over and over and over again you attack those who are simply not enraged about the coverage.

:freak:

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Media control and others have noticed as well

predictably later in the cycle

Same fucking thing happened when Russert died.

That said, at least MSNBC had a need to do that... and a right... just that they pushed it over the envelope in my view

And it is happening again. I am almost betting people who were stunned by his death, 50 IS young these days,, started "grieving" after a couple hours of this, or even a day. And that is the problem.

I also wonder if the family is getting the time alone THEY NEED to grieve and arrange for a funeral

Now if you have no problem with media control please do ignore me, because I will continue to point to it, whether it is the death of a celeb or how they report the, ahem news. They are connected.

[HughMoran]

What does "media control" have to do with this?

I mean really - what overarching message are they trying to implant in our heads? What "control" are they exerting over us by showing boring music videos from the 1980's? Please don't conflate the normal political ass-kissing that the media does with this predictable period of "remembrance" when a person who's been a public persona for 40 years dies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. What are they NOT showing you?

connect some dots.

[HughMoran]

102. Perhaps they can figure out how to show me "everything" in the future

I can't believe you really care what the fucking corporate media is showing - I only watch Keith and Rachel - occasionally Ed. Why anybody would watch that crap is beyond me. If anything, this MJ phenomenon is a nice break from the normal shoveling of BS.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Because what the corporate media chooses to show you

and not show you creates the attitudes of most americans.

Even now. In fact this little exercise is a good exercise in the rewriting of history.

I watch KO, RM and the occasional Ed... so your point?

I am aware of media manipulation EVEN IN THOSE PROGRAMS.

and that is the point.

George Orwell had it right...

And it seems to me the Murican people just love it... here is a song for you, listen to it carefully...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFowNFvmUxw

And what is says about how the President and the rest is sold to us... he is making the same point as Orwell did

[HughMoran]

106. I watched a comedy skit last night and when the comedian said "as if Fox News ever told the truth"

(paraphrased cause I can't remember exactly), the entire audience cheered in agreement.

People aren't as stupid as you think - though it doesn't hurt having paranoid watchdogs among us, I couldn't be you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. It is not paranoia, it is knowledge of history

Fox is too obvious... and you are right the American people are not that stupid, but people in general are easy to maninpulate

Why the fuck do you think Marketing works? Not just in the US incidentally.

Have a good life, thinking that you never fall pray to it, and that some media has no bias and other has bias

Thankfully I know better.

And yes, I have fallen pray to manipulation, we all have. I'm just that naive as you are.

[HughMoran]

112. Oh, I have been fooled a time or two

...and I spend a significant amount of time "deprogramming" my parents from BS they've had pumped into their heads by the MSM.

OTOH, this MJ thing is anything but worrisome to me - I don't understand why you've lost it over this particular episode - this was entirely predictable based on his history in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. It is not this particular episode

it is A PATTERN

They see money they go for it.

Tim Russert and this are but the latest national fixations.

[HughMoran]

117. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then

I'll admit that I was annoyed at the Russert coverage as I didn't care for him, nor did I think he was neutral, but as with anything in this country, some people's 15 minutes of fame lasts for a week, but ultimately this country moves on and has serious ADD.

[JI7]

68. do you think what you are doing is healthy ?

some need to prove something about yourself maybe as compared to others ? nobody is demanding you grieve or even be upset. but you almost seem defensive on this.

you have posted many threads and posts expressing your distaste for this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. You mean for the manipulation of the media of people's emotions?

I find it disgusting quite honestly.

[JI7]

78. i know people who don't watch TV that are more upset by it Jackson's death than i was

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. really? I wish I was a sociologist to write a paper on tis

a real research paper on this.

I've seen this so many times IN THE US it is not even funny anymore.

It is an artform, and predictable too

[JI7]

90. many people outside the United States are mourning Jackson's death

[HughMoran]

96. Maybe more than in the US

His comeback tour wasn't even in the US.

[JI7]

100. i totally agree with that

i said somewhere else that people outside of america LOVED Michael. even before his death when many americans would joke about him. but outside of america they thought Michael was being treated badly when people here made fun of him.

and for those who grew up outside america or in a different culture, Michael Jackson was their first taste of American culture.

i really don't think many people realize how big Jackson was for people around the world. they think it's just an american event. below are some examples. he was front page around the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. The coverage is NOT as intensive

and he was larger outside the US, especially the UK

And if they want to do whatever they want to do, go for it, but part of this is media driven and that is MY POINT

I don't know how clearer this has to be. MEDIA DRIVEN

[HughMoran]

69. Reading your posts on this topic is making me feel uncomfortable

I think your obsession with how others deal with the death of a celebrity is unhealthy. Why do you care - or more so, why does it bother you so?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. The media manipulation and how people fall for it

predictably every time.

This is pure media manipulation

They've become experts

And the same folks who go CNN FAIL, and will do this again next week, are falling for it

They sell us the president the same way, or our heroes

Think about it

[HughMoran]

76. But I was rivited to the TV the first 2 nights

Now, I choose to not watch anymore as I never watch news on the weekend anyway.

Why can't you

CHANGE THE FUCKING CHANNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. So you know the TV has been OFF for a few days now

it goes on, they are still on it, it goes off

The first night I watched plenty of movies. What about you?

Oh you were riveted by it.

Sorry.

[HughMoran]

89. Borat

That scene with the etiquette people was really uncomfortable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Good, F-911 Control Room

Will probably put in the Lord of the Rings later on, as there is NOTHING on the TV right now...

And Control Room is quite apropo right now

[BuelahWitch]

109. Or better yet, go read a book...

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. I'd recommend 1984 but that is just me

:-)

[Atticus]

115. Or "Catch 22".

But, that's just me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Ah another good one

yep...

[Mythsaje]

139. I'd recommend "Tales from the Magitech Lounge," myself, but that's just me...

I don't watch news programs for the most part, so I have no idea what they're trying to shovel down everyone's throat. Don't care, really.

[emilyg]

119. +1

[Dorian Gray]

133. I agree...

a lot of people grieve for her. I was most shocked by her death, and she's the face of a movement for that reason.

It seems to have been usurped by Jackson's death, but that's here in the US.

[Atticus]

121. Grieve? No.

Feel sad about? Absolutely. Regret? Of course. Want justice for? Damn straight.

But, "grieve"? No. But, you are certainly entitled to if that's what you feel.

[sandnsea]

122. That's grieving

But if you prefer to call it something else, you are certainly entitled.

[1]

125. so beautiful...

[Cherchez la Femme]

140. What goes on in yours

that you can't distinguish between grief and sadness in the majority of people?

that you can't see the difference between the expectation of death of those who are drug addicted or older --and all extremely ill-- meeting their deaths and the needless, chance murder of a young innocent who had not near begun to live her life?

that you need to publicly measure and adjudge certain deaths against others as being unworthy of someone else's personal sadness and arbitrarily proclaim it as abject grief, and then to top it off you invalidate their emotions as "contradictory thinking"?


The mind boggles.

[Number23]

142. There was a story about a 2-year old girl who was beaten to death by her mother and her boyfriend

During her beating, she looked at her mother, touched her leg and said "I love you."

I have never met that little girl, can't remember where she lived and can't even remember what her name is now. But when I read that story, I cried for that child for two straight days. Two STRAIGHT days. Even now, more than a month later, I still feel weak thinking about that baby.

Anyone whose compassion is only confined to people that they know has none to begin with.

[canetoad]

What indeed. k&r

[BlooInBloo]

4. I just don't understand why they can't all be grieved for. Why do you people think it's a contest?

[canetoad]

9. Bit emo dontcha think?

Not everything has to be full on, all the time. Even grieving.

[BlooInBloo]

12. If I had said it had to be full-on all the time, then yes, that would be emo....

Thankfully, I didn't, so it isn't.

[patrice]

59. Right, you're referring to the ability to feel, the potential, not necessarily the actual. nt

[havocmom]

10. "you people"? "contest"?

OP is a good read.

[BlooInBloo]

13. Do you prefer "you jackasses"?

[sandnsea]

18. Well I do

But I'm sure everybody already knew that.

:rofl:

Oh Noes - I'm laughing, where does that leave the hair tearing and gnashing storyline?

[havocmom]

45. ah yes, all who refuse to walk your party line

hate America are inferior.

I have observed this tactic before... where was that? Oh yeah, now I remember. The newt taught it.

[emilyg]

36. I don't have the energy to grieve for everyone. I grieved

for my Mom, my Dad, my twin granddaughters.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

41. Oh, dear ........

I am so sorry, emilyg. Twin granddaughters. Oh, my.

I am so sorry........

:hug:

[emilyg]

123. Thank you.

[sandnsea]

43. Who asked you to grieve for everyone?

And is there not any public figure that you would be sad to see their life end, especially suddenly and before their time? Further, the thing I do not get, is What Is It To You, What Do You Care? Leave People ALONE.

[emilyg]

118. What crawled up your a**?

I may feel sorry when a public figure passes. Grief I reserve for family.

[emilyg]

120. I just noticed your

Leave People Alone - would you like to elaborate.

[Liberal_in_LA]

49. Bloo says something intelligent!

[patrice]

58. Me too. How is it possible to grieve for one person and not for all?

Or the converse: If you can't grieve for - any - one, how can you grieve for someone?

[Pacifist Patriot]

138. The mistake is assuming that grief is something static and monolithic.

In reality, grief is highly individual. Not just that one person's death will affect different people to varying degrees and in different ways, but that one person will respond to a variety of people's deaths to varying degrees and in different ways.

The grief I felt for my grandfather passing away unexpectedly was far different from the grief I felt when my grandmother passed away after suffering cruelly from renal failure for years.

The grief I felt when I learned about Princess Diana's death was far different from what my best friend in England felt.

So yes, it is possible to feel grief for one person and not someone (or anyone else).

I think a lot of people also confuse grief with sympathy. I feel no grief at all with Ed, Farrah's or Michael's passing, but I have a deep sense of sympathy for their families and those who are grieving.

The hardest part about grief counseling is helping people understand that their feelings are valid regardless of what they are. Primarily because people usually don't experience grief the way they've been conditioned to feel that they should be experiencing grief. A crier wonders if she's been crying too long. A stoic wonders why she isn't crying at all.

6 billion people on this planet, countless resulting relationships, infinite ways of feeling and exhibiting grief.

[Greyhound]

146,000 people die every day. Some good, some bad, most are some of each.

I've never understood the reaction so many have to the deaths of the famous.

Of greater concern to me is that about 350,000 are born every day (hardly any of which will be famous) and all of those will have a direct effect on those of us already here.

Neither giving birth or dying is even a minor accomplishment, so what's the big deal?

[Pacifist Patriot]

137. Not to be ghoulish, but...

I am an advocate of ZPG...well, actually I'd like to see the birth rate decline for negative population growth. And before anyone accuses me of favoring genocide or something equally heinous, ZPG is NOT about killing people off. It's about not having as many births relative to a natural death rate. There shouldn't be 6 billion homo sapiens on this planet at the current rate of consumption of resources.

Nobody lives forever, celebrities included. Death is going to happen whether we want it or not. Frankly, I'm not much in favor of tottering around at 128 years of age. My body's betraying me enough at 40 as it is!

[Greyhound]

141. I generally agree, there are far too many bald monkeys on this planet already

and that surplus suits the parasites purposes.

But try telling some new parent-to-be that they have done nothing special and you will be outcast forever. It's like telling your friend that their new mate is a disaster waiting to ruin their life, there just isn't any upside.

[Pacifist Patriot]

136. In my case, it's not a matter of being a contest.

I completely understand what the OP is saying. I am of the generation that should be most affected by the recent celebrity deaths and my response was an "oh, how sad for those who knew them well," with virtually no personally emotional impact whatsoever.

To witness the outpouring of public grief is frankly puzzling to me. And yes, a bit irritating when I cannot get news of other topics because it is drowned in a flood of celebrity retrospectives...heck, I couldn't even listen to BBC World Service Radio for much of the past few days. When I admitted that to someone who is a personal acquaintance, she treated me like I was some kind of sociopathic monster.

It doesn't bother me if others are deeply grieved and mourn these icons' deaths. It does bother me when I am considered somehow sub-emotionally human because their deaths just don't have that much of an impact on me.

I might as well add my honest $.02 on Ed, Farrah and Michael's death and people can say of me what they will.

Death is sad. My sympathies to their friends and families and those who feel personally touched by their passing. My life goes on. For now anyway. There will come a day when I will follow in their footsteps. I hope when that happens the people who knew me will have kind words to say about my memory.

[Mz Pip]

6. I have a real life

that is not connected to celebrities. I like Michael Jackson's music and I do feel bad that he had such a screwed up life, but I just cannot relate to all of this public display of grief. It's just weird to me.

[RufusTFirefly]

7. Amen. I believe that the military has a fitting term for what is needed

"a proportional response"

[truedelphi]

8. Sometimes people who have been touched to the core

By a close friend or family member, lose that family member at a time when there is no chance to grieve. Could be their parents or guardians wouldn't allow it. Could be that there was too much grief at one time.

So for the rest of one's short time here on earth, there are these "substitute" grief moments.

I am speaking strictly for myself and what I have noticed about some others.

[havocmom]

19. Interesting point.

I have long wondered about the response when a famous person dies and throngs get so wrapped up in the grief when they didn't have any relationship with the deceased. Sort thought there was some displaced response going on for personal stuff that, for whatever reason, never got completely explored or expressed.

You are not alone in your observation.

[truedelphi]

30. Doing hospice work with one client in his nineties - his kid sister had

Died in the nineteen teens - and the day after she was dead, her body was gone, and he was told not to talk about her - ever.

This from an upper crust, very Victorian type of family.

But even in more modern families, children who have a family member die might sense that their parents need them to be strong and supprotive. Look at Caroline Kennedy - she told a Life reporter "I only cried twice!" re: her father's death. Several accounts of the JFK funeral describe her being strong for her mother.

But when Jackie died, she cried like there was no tomorrow. All I could think was "Good for you, Caroline, sweetie. Get it all out now that you can."

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. And this one makes sense, but does not explain the whole reaction

I mean there are people out there actually grieving who have not had that happen to them.

Then again in the US public displays of grieve are frowned upon usually... so perhaps this explains this

[havocmom]

38. that and what Tahiti Nut suggested (n/t)

[willing dwarf]

11. Well grief and mortality can come as a surprise.

I think for a lot of people the loss of celebrity they identified triggers past pain about other losses. Also, there's the matter of facing one's own mortality. "If so and so who I identified with as a teen, or so and so who I idolize can die inspite of their fame then what is the meaning and significance of my life, and the fact of my own mortality?"

I figure there's no making sense of other people's grief. All I can do is be compassionate with the suffering they are feeling or are vicariously feeling through the feelings of others. It's got to be natural because it's such a pervasive response to this stuff.

[Kaleko]

47. Good points.

Another point following from that is that brow-beating people for expressing what they feel, whether it's devotion or disgust, smacks of authoritarianism.

[orpupilofnature57]

14. MSM knows only celebrity grief ,a form of entertainment.

A loss of a Loved one is anything but entertaining.

[PSzymeczek]

15. This is one of the sanest things I have read in the past three days.

n/t

[11 Bravo]

16. I never met JFK, RFK, or MLK, yet I was devastated by each of their deaths.

I'm not trying to equate Michael Jackson with any of those individuals, but you appear to be positing that we should only weep for the passing of those with whom we are personally acquainted.

[JI7]

22. i was born years after they all died, but watching RFK tell people that MLK had died

brings tears.

i really don't get the OP.

[Atticus]

26. Not at all---

but, are your really equating Jacko with JFK, Bobby or Martin?

[11 Bravo]

31. Ummm ... I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

[Atticus]

33. My bad! nt

[patrice]

66. Don't let it bother you. There's lots of that going around!

:hi:

[orpupilofnature57]

29. Put in context, your list is made up of Victims.

[starroute]

51. Those three deaths were experienced more like 9/11

They were felt as attacks on the nation, they deprived us of current leaders, and things changed permanently for the worse as a result of them.

My husband suggested the death of Princess Di as something more equivalent to what is going on now. But she was at least regarded as some kind of national symbol, and was still very much in the public eye when she died, so that people might have legitimately felt that English had suffered a national loss.

I can't even begin to imagine what Michael Jackson might be seen as symbolizing -- or to whom -- that would account for all of this. Would there be the same three-day grief-fest if Madonna died? To me they always seemed very equivalent as pioneers of rock video with more style than content.

[JI7]

55. Music is a big part of people's lives , people can hear a song and a memory from years ago

when that song also played can come back.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. Well, Atticus,

you don't post very often, but when you do, you appear to hit it out of the park.

Yes, the boomers are entering that time when - I noticed this in my parents, and then I found myself doing it - you buy sympathy cards by the box. One card at a time no longer does the trick. Better to have them on hand.

I'm sure the families of these celebrities are heartbroken and grief-stricken, no matter how well-prepared they thought they were. And that is sad, but it is a part of life.

JFK famously noted that "the world will always break your heart."

I think the people who are actively grieving and experiencing the kind of emotions that you and I would reserve for our loved ones might be yearning to feel a part of something larger, to have that connection. Perhaps they transfer a lot of what they wish onto the celebrity and live through that person?

I don't know. I don't understand it.

What is striking is that no one has expressed the kind of vociferous and sometimes quite angry sentiments that have accompanied the death of Jackson about the passing of Farrah Fawcett and Ed McMahon. A lot of men have said "I had her poster" and I'm sure there have been quite a few smiling recollections about that, and Ed's passing makes us remember the Johnny Carson show, and how sad it is that that kind of TV brilliance is gone.

But Jacko's fans have taken on a kind of collective hysteria at his passing. Perhaps it was the suddenness, since he was relatively young. Yet, as my daughter pointed out today, "Once you reach the age where prostate exams are a yearly thing, you better be prepared for anything."

I'm just glad I and my loved ones are still here. That makes today good. There is always tomorrow, and therein lies the eternal potential for heartbreak ...............................

[havocmom]

34. Thinkin on the MJ hysteria and I have an additional theory

Lots of the people so overwrought about it are young enough that this might be the first 'hit' they have taken so it seems to be the hardest hit. They don't have the perspective yet to deal with the waves of feelings that swamp their boats. Trying to extend some empathy so I can understand what the overreaction and deification is all about, but it is mind boggling how demanding and hostile to other opinions some are. It is a hysteria. And I have a fatal character flaw that only allows me so much patience before I try to slow the 'awful-izing' that snowballs and carries people over the edge of reason.

Trying to think back to a time I might have been similarly devastated. Can't find a matching moment to compare it with. Guess I have always been a fatalist and never could afford delusions?

[TahitiNut]

20. Since my grief is deeper than your grief, I'm a better person.

:sarcasm: ... but not by much.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

50. And if you're not experiencing any grief,

you are a heartless monster.............

(That sarcasm thing was superfluous, I think............)

[TahitiNut]

75. 50-cent's gonna get you, suckah

[Tangerine LaBamba]

87. ::: gulp :::

[Greyhound]

95. His survival is a testament to poor marksmanship. n/t

[Raine]

23. I'm not grieving but I feel bad,

for one thing these people dying makes fresh the pain I had last year when my father died. Sometimes the death of someone you didn't know releases fresh pain over loss for someone in your own life and you relive the whole thing. I also lost my cousin a few days ago and was at the funeral Thursday when both FF and MJ death's happened, it's been a difficult week. :-(

[Atticus]

28. I can understand that.

Though I don't know you, please accept my sympathy for your losses.

[Raine]

53. Thanks nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

57. These things sometimes come in clusters,

and they're even harder to handle.

I am sorry for your loss.

It will get better, I can tell you that. It will never be the same, but it will be a new kind of all right for you ..................

[Raine]

127. Thanks that helps

:pals:

[ProSense]

25. To each his/her own.

Someone dies and this place enters a parallel dimension with freeperville.

Are people's lives so pathetic they can't allow people to grieve when someone they admire dies?

Why does that bother someone so much so that they have to hurl obscenities in objection? Why not just ignore the threads (even if there are two dozen)?

[liberalhistorian]

27. Amen. My nearly lifelong best friend died several months

ago as a result of a horrible medical mistake and subsequent negligence in correcting it, and suffered for months before dying. The grief was and remains horrendous, as it was and is for my brother's death twenty years ago. It in no way compares one iota to whatever I may feel when a favored celebrity/author/artist, etc., dies, and it cheapens grief to even consider comparing the two.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. My sympathies

and as a historian you KNOW in the US death is feared... to the point that public displays of grief (outside situations like this) are frowned upon

We have even removed it from the home and we all try (well not me) to remain young and deny that this will happen.

I wonder if this is a national release. Somebody made a good point above, misplaced grief.

Oh and by the way, I fully agree with you. People are now confusing sadness with a full grieving process.

[sandnsea]

54. Well Obviously

And just because YOU are conflating the two, doesn't mean other people are. I don't understand why you think it does.

Do you think every tear shed comes from the same level of pain?

[Dappleganger]

62. I'm sorry for your loss.

There are different kinds of grief, however--it is not all the same.
Your friend was blessed to have you.

[Control-Z]

37. They will be missed by many,

and many will '"mourn" their passing'. And in a few days, or weeks, the feelings will pass. When someone who has touched your core dies, the pain will go on, and on. They will be missed day after day, even hour after hour, or minute after minute, for a long time.

Often when a stranger passes, it serves to remind us of someone we have already lost, or someone we don't want to lose. We all have our own way of dealing with the shock and sadness of such a loss.

If you don't feel the way others do, consider yourself lucky perhaps?

[radiclib]

39. I only have one rule in my life

I will never tell anyone who, what or how to grieve.

[KittyWampus]

40. Most people are mourning their lost youth. Oh, and your REAL life? People we know via tv

or the internet are recognized by our subconscious as real.

What the fuck ever. Some people always feel a desperate need to feel superior.

[LWolf]

46. I'd like to suggest

that much of the grief you've been observing is not about the deceased.

Some of it...yes.

But the larger part is the loss of part of the fabric of our lives, rather than the individual, and part of facing and dealing with change, and our own inevitable death.

I believe that every generation, as it ages, grieves in some way, large and small, for the way the world evolves beyond us. The things that moved us, that drove us, are now history. Newer generations don't remember, don't understand, and don't value the people and events that helped shape our world.

So the grief is partly for us.

It's not the same kind of grief suffered when someone close is lost.

[UTUSN]

56. Keith hosted a MJ producer who said the same thing, taking it further, saying

he didn't understand the "celebrity" syndrome, of people abandoning their own selfhood for the ostensible goal of worshipping another human.

Sometimes, even here among our own "Democratic" fellow beings, we forget ourselves and do some worshipping of England's royals (how UNdemocratic) or these celebrity creations.

MJ and OJ are analagous, mixing actual accomplishments with depredations. And Princess Di and Anna Nicole lack the personal accomplishments. Yet 3 of the 4 are hullabalooed.

It's these tsunamis of celebrity that renew the worn down meaning of sound-and-fury-signifying-nothing.


What I resent very specifically is how GD in DU became the dumping ground for the tsunami. Understandably, LBN stayed true to its specialized character, but mysteriously, even the Lounge managed to escape much MJ intrusion.


What's funny is that Sunday, Howard KURTZ will do what he always does, EXTEND the media overdose by re-playing long segments of it from last week, WHILE "asking" whether everybody WENT OVERBOARD (doing it himself).

[orpupilofnature57]

64. Man made weather.

[robdogbucky]

67. Huh?

"...And Princess Di and Anna Nicole lack the personal accomplishments..."

Okay, I'll agree on Smith, but Diana?

To wit:

Starting in the mid- to late 1980s, the Princess of Wales became increasingly known for her support of numerous charities. This stemmed naturally from her role as Princess of Wales—she was expected to visit hospitals and other state agencies in the 20th century model of royal patronage. Diana, however, developed an interest in serious illnesses and health-related matters outside the purview of traditional royal involvement, including AIDS and leprosy. In addition, the Princess patronised charities and organisations working with the homeless, youth, drug addicts and the elderly.

Diana was most famously, in the last year of her life, the most visible supporter of the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, a campaign that went on to win the Nobel Peace Prize in 1997 after her death, which many believed was a posthumus tribute to the Princess.<18>

AIDS awareness
In April 1987, the Princess of Wales was one of the first public figures to be photographed touching a person infected with HIV. She contributed to changing the public opinion of AIDS sufferers during the subsequent years, as her involvement with a variety of AIDS charities, not only in the United Kingdom but in North America, Africa and Asia as well, was a consistent public role she embraced.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales


Just my dos centavos

robdogbucky

[UTUSN]

81. I had started to explain, but deleted so as to stay with my point.

I didn't want to go off into a separate discussion about relative merits, along the lines of what somebody posted above "my grief is better/deeper than yours."

First, Diana is part of the UN-Democratic royals establishment, which by definition ought to be foreign to Democratic practitioners like us. Next, she, personally, started by living out an immature fantasy life, then "rebelled" out of pique at being treated like the fluff of her fantasy. The good works she did were heavily supported by vast resources and infrastructure: Staff making appointments and photo ops, while she stood in the spotlight and wore clothes. You know, Paris HILTON said SHE was going to do some kind of humongous humanitarian thing, but is back at the clubs. I suspect Diana was basically acting out emotional revenge scenarios on her in-laws with everything she did after being dumped. She met and posed in pictures with "Mother" Teresa: Both of them got their own slice of this "celebrityhood" thing in this thread's o.p. Was there ANYTHING actually "spiritual" in it for either of them? If the Kate half of the John&Kate people (whoever they are) had met Mom Teresa, whom she said she wanted to be like, I submit it would have the same value as Diana's meeting.

Bill and Melinda use their own money, for starters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. Well the media is manipulating people's emotion

and he is right, the producer is.

I fear the family is not getting the privacy they need either.

[Dappleganger]

60. I think we need to stop judging people about who they grieve over

I've lost several people very close to me over the past two years, my daughter lost a close friend just over a week ago. We know what real grieving is like. There are some awful things happening all over the world right now and many of us are horrified. The celebs who are passing may or may not mean anything to anyone here, but they may have some kind of special meaning to any one of us so I will not condemn anyone feeling sorry for their passing. Hell, there are pets who die every day and those people are entitled as well. Let's leave the judgmental attitude to the repukes, ok?

[Atticus]

84. First, my sympathy for your losses.

My intent in posting was to voice an alternative reaction to the loss of these celebrities, and I don't think what I wrote can fairly be read to imply that I did not care about these folks.

I'm sorry if you interpreted my attitude as "judgmental". Thanks for your response.

[ebdarcy]

65. We all grieve in our own way.

No two people experience emotions in the exact same way. People should be allowed to grieve in the manner they see fit.

And it is possible for someone you don't know to touch your very core. We are shaped by more than just the people we know.

[nini]

80. I agree

completely..

[patrice]

88. Grief cracks your heart, because it is about that other person, not about who they were to YOU.

You are alive. You will carry on. S/he isn't and won't; that's what the grief is about.

My husband died earlier this month.

I am sad for him, not because he was my husband, but because he was a person who was very good at living and wanted to keep on living, but didn't get to.

[Atticus]

104. Please accept my heartfelf sympathy.

I cannot imagine life without my wife. I have lost both parents and can tell you from experience, the pain doesn't go away, but it does become bearable. Cling to memories, for now.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

128. I am sorry for your loss......

I wish you well.............

[Fumesucker]

132. Sorry for your loss...

Please accept my sympathies and condolences.

I have lost enough in this life to have some understanding of how you may feel.

[Inspired]

91. Just who is gnashing their teeth? Tearing their hair out? Sobbing at the thought?

Everyone deals with shit in their own way, thank you very much.

[Atticus]

105. Some are.

Thanks for your response.

[crispini]

99. Ah, the Internet.

Always full of people ready to say how much better they are than everyone else and tell other people what to do and how to feel.

[Atticus]

107. Who did that? NT

[crispini]

108. You, sugar.

"I'm so much more real than those poor people who obviously don't have lives because they are grieving over a pop star they don't know.". That is exactly what you implied.

Just because you don't understand what someone's feeling or why doesn't make it any less of an emotion to that person.

[Atticus]

113. Okay, so now I didn't SAY it , I IMPLIED it!

Thanks for your input.

[bettyellen]

126. yup!

[1]

124. whatever...

[Bryn]

129. I think you're wrong

Ed McMahon, Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett were a part of our lives. Their engeries did affect us. We're all connected. As for real people that you see around you are sometimes not real, don't touch you. Anything that touches your life is real.

Ripples...Ripples

Steve Irwin did touch my life. I loved Farrah for her bright smile. I loved Michael Jackson for his awesome dancing especially moonwalk. Princess Diana touched my life. She had a good heart. You don't need someone in front of you to touch you.

[Lilyeye]

130. Wonderful post.

[lamp_shade]

131. So, so true. I still grieve in a way over Diana, and even moreso over Jim Henson.

These two "touched" my life (through my then young daughter) in a way that even friends and family can't.

[and-justice-for-all]

134. I do not like to get involved in other peoples stress...

by that I mean, a celebrities issues and stresses are not going to be part of my life.

People die, people die everyday and will continue to die everyday until the day I die.

[LanternWaste]

135. A wonderful thing about emotions are that....

A wonderful thing about emotions are that we have an unlimited reservoir-- grieving for one death does not minimize nor diminish our grief for another death.