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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 01:33 PM
Original message
Lyme discoverer Willy Burgdorfer breaks silence on heated controversy
Lyme discoverer Willy Burgdorfer breaks silence on heated controversy
Kris Newby
Jun 9, 12:17 PM

http://underourskin.com/blog/?p=191

On February 28, 2007, the UNDER OUR SKIN film crew interviewed Willy Burgdorfer, Ph.D., M.D., and Scientist Emeritus at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), for three hours at his home in Hamilton, Montana. Dr. Burgdorfer is the discoverer and namesake of the spirochete (a type of bacterium) that causes Lyme disease, called Borrelia burgdorferi. He has received numerous awards, including the Robert Koch Gold Medal, the IDSA Bristol Award, the Schaudinn-Hoffman Plaque, and the Walter Reed Medal. He is a coeditor of the book, “Aspects of Lyme Borreliosis,” and has published over 220 research papers.

Just as we began filming, there was a pounding on the door, and we found ourselves facing someone who turned out to be a top researcher at the nearby Rocky Mountain Laboratories, a biolevel-4 NIH research facility. Standing on the porch, our uninvited guest said, “I’ve been told that I need to supervise this interview. This comes from the highest levels. There are things that Willy can’t talk about.”

We were stunned. After all, Dr. Burgdorfer had been retired from the lab since 1986. We were there to talk to a private citizen, about the history of a very public discovery that had put him on the short list for a Nobel Prize. Earlier that year, the NIH had refused our requests to interview any of their Lyme researchers. What was going on? Why would the NIH want to censor information about the fastest growing bug-borne disease in the United States?

Fortunately, our iron-willed film director, Andy Abrahams Wilson, turned the NIH handler away, and what followed was an amazingly candid interview about Lyme disease—its dangers and its controversies. Here are highlights from this three-hour interview:

Andy Wilson: Could you describe the “Aha!” moment when you discovered the spirochete that causes Lyme disease?

Dr. Burgdorfer: I remember that time quite well. Allen Steere called me in the summer of 1977 and said, “Willy, I would like to discuss with you the methods you are using in dissecting ticks, and for microbial agents.” I sat with him about two hours that summer and told him over the phone how to dissect ticks. Then about two months later he called again, and I repeated, again, the same thing. And he finally said , “Well, I’m willing to send you some serum . I want you to examine them for me.”

But it was not an “Aha” . It was a “What in the hell? What’s in that smear?” And then my work as a Swiss student came back. , “Willy, these are spirochetes!” The slide showed long slender forms, a little bit curved, and they were only in the mid-part of the tick. Nowhere else. There were so many people who said, “That is impossible Willie. You can’t get spirochetes out of hard-bodied ticks.” relapsing fever ticks from Africa, I knew what a spirochete looked like. The Belgian Congo and Kenya are hotspots for relapsing fever. Even Livingston was exposed, and he called it “tick fever.”

Andy Wilson: And what did they call this spirochete?

Dr. Burgdorfer: I discovered the agent producing Lyme disease, so they called it Borrelia burgdorferi, after my name, Willy Burgdorfer. The initial findings were published right away in Science magazine. And even today, is considered a breakthrough in spirochetal research. There are many laboratories that are using our techniques, applying them to syphilis, because of similarities.

Andy Wilson: What are the similarities between Borrelia burgdorferi and syphilis?

Dr. Burgdorfer: The similarities that I know of are associated with the infection of the brain, the nervous system. The syphilis spirochete, Treponema pallidum has an affinity for nerve tissues. The Borrelia burgdorferi spirochete very likely has that too. Children are especially sensitive to Borrelia burgdorferi.

The Lyme disease spirochete is far more virulent than syphilis. We don’t know the end yet. And can’t even make a smear with Borrelia burgdorferi and see the organism. It’s there. But you don’t see it. You cannot find this spirochete. Why not? After all, I have a sick person here. He is trembling all over. His synovial fluid is full of spirochetes. But when it comes to blood, it’s not there. So there is something associated with this organism that makes it different.

Andy Wilson: Why is Borrelia burgdorferi so hard to find in the body and culture outside the body?

Dr. Burgdorfer: Borrelia burgdorferi in the tissues of a patient is extremely difficult to demonstrate, because, first of all, you don’t like somebody to take samples out of your brain for spirochetes. The same with other tissues. Every system in your body can be infected with spirochete. But to prove that is extremely difficult. It demands surgical work, which is very expensive

Andy Wilson: Are you a believer in the idea of persistent Lyme infections?

Dr. Burgdorfer: I am a believer in persistent infections because people suffering with Lyme disease, ten or fifteen or twenty years later, get sick . Because it appears that this organism has the ability to be sequestered in tissues and is possible that it could reappear, bringing back the clinical manifestations it caused in the first place. These are controversial issues for microbiologists, as well as the physicians who are asked to treat patients.

Andy Wilson: How do you feel about the controversy in the Lyme world?

Dr. Burgdorfer: The controversy in Lyme disease research is a shameful affair. And I say that because the whole thing is politically tainted. Money goes to people who have, for the past 30 years, produced the same thing—nothing. Serology has to be started from scratch with people who don’t know beforehand the results of their research.

There are lots of physicians around who wouldn’t touch a Lyme disease patient. They tell the nurse, “You tell the guy to get out of here. I don’t want to see him.” That is shameful. So shame includes physicians who don’t even have the courage to tell a patient, “You have Lyme disease and I don’t know anything about it.”

Andy Wilson: What about the Lyme vaccine?

Dr. Burgdorfer: The vaccine was not specific enough and not strong enough. So what is needed is additional work on a vaccine. What we have right now is a good example of work that goes to industry , and industry says, “Okay fine, get it out. “ And somebody says, well it’s too early. And it’s already on the market … and you see that every day …You see that this company is falling down, and these guys are realizing that the vaccine work is full of holes and never should have come out. A lot of people are going to pay for that. They’re going to get sick with Lyme as a result of the vaccination. Then you’re in trouble.

Andy Wilson: What do you think about the relationship between Lyme and neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease?

Dr. Burgdorfer: Right now they are building a research center at Columbia University, to study this possibility, because many physicians believe that neurologic manifestations, regardless what type, are typical for Lyme disease.

Andy Wilson: What do you most regret about what has happened, in the aftermath of your discovery?

Dr. Burgdorfer: I most regret that the technology used to diagnose and to even treat Lyme disease wasn’t worked all the way through. It only a few results, then published. And later on, people to take them back. I think Borrelia burgdorferi is too serious an agent to play with, and with many laboratories, the severity of the disease is overlooked.

Andy Wilson: What’s the next stage of research?

Dr. Burgdorfer: Neurologic manifestations have to be the next stage of research. Also antigenicity. Ecologically, the diversification of Borrelia is tremendous. Because of the spirochete’s ability to change—to change its physiology, to change its “antigenic” structure for instance—a spirochete may be capable of producing disease or not.

And one piece of work that needs to be done, that has lately been neglected, is development of the spirochete—whether it transfers fission, or whether individual spirochetes have the ability to break into spheres or particles. We don’t know yet how they do it but they do. They go into the lymphocytes, they go into every tissue. Just because we have not seen , does not mean that they are not there. Once the immune response is down, are capable of re-entering the bloodstream and producing disease?

Andy Wilson: Do you have Lyme?

Dr. Burgdorfer: No. I don’t. But I say that cautiously. Because I have been working with Lyme disease ever since 1981.

_______

Soon after we turned-off the camera and began packing up our gear, Dr. Burgdorfer told us with a wry smile, “I didn’t tell you everything.”
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Interesting
and I am getting some clues about problems I see with many people and an inability to get medical care, even diagnosis, for some nasty symptoms I observe around me.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. My sister has been suffering with Lyme for years.
She gets really angry when the media reports cases of West Nile or EEE, when the silent epidemic of Lyme disease affects so many people. In New England, almost everyone knows someone, or several people, with Lyme. My sister has neurological symptoms similar to Parkinsons (Lyme dystonia) and is now again on antibiotics. Problem is most doctors won't prescribe the antibiotics for long enough to totally kill the spirochetes, and the insurance companies won't cover long term antibiotic treatment. Doctors have lost their licenses and been threatened as a result of treating Lyme. The other problem concerns the coinfections that happen as the result of Lyme. My sister can't work and is on disability. :-(
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. insurance co's should be allowed to decide what diseases they will or will not pay for.
will they one day decide they won't pay for heart disease? diabetes? cancer??

oh wait. they basically do that too.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. insurance corporations should NEVER make medical decisions
for anyone, I totally agree with you, this needs to be repeated everywhere.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Sorry to hear your sibling is affected.
It is so weird that a doctor can lose their license for treating this disease - while so many die from no treatment due to lack of insurance!

And what is even weirder - veterinarians here in California are willing to treat the pets brought to them - and they know that Lyme's is here in California - but the doctors refuse to accept it is here.
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islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. bookmarked for later...thanks
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is really important information
My daughter has had lyme twice now. I really worry about the future for her.
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. The long term effects can be awful.
I hope they caught it early enough. Some PCPs are Lyme literate, others don't know enough to prescribe several courses of antibiotics.
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. The first time it took about two weeks for them to properly diagnosis
it. They thought it was some sort of contact dermititis even through she DID develop the tell tale bullseye rash. Once she was on the proper treatment she ended up with head MRI's to look for nerve damage and she was followed closely after that. Poor kid was five years old and lost 1 pounds because she couldn't keep anything down.

The second time I recognized the symptoms in her within 48 hours and she was treated again.

I know I will have to keep my eye on her for years to come with an jaundiced eye to Lyme causing any odd symptoms that we can't define being my first thought.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Wondering who came to Hamilton, MT first, Burgdorfer or the NIH lab
I recall being sorta surprised about that lab going into the area.
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks for this article! Every new bit of info helps. Lyme sucks. I do not wish it upon anyone.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
radiation induced mutations. This stuff was around for millions of years and then a nuke plant in Lyme mutated the little buggers
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Once Lyme disease was identified in the US, it was matched to a pre-existing
tick borne illness in Europe.

http://www.drgreene.com/21_1134.html

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/330178-overview


Lyme disease is a problem in the US today because white tail deer have moved into the suburbs. All those lawns make for fine pasture, there are enough vacant lots for cover and no suburb allows hunting. You have a population boom in deer followed by a multiplication of deer ticks in crowded grazing areas. Lyme disease followed the ticks the way malaria and yellow fever follow swamps.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. i live in what used to be a cypress swamp in central florida -- they've tamed the
water into pretty retaining ponds and left large swaths of "conservation" which are beautiful and necessary if you're going to build in this kind of environment. if you plow it all down, the area will flood like it does in older subdivisions north of here.

we don't have deer in OUR backyard (it's fenced), but we walk the neighborhood at night and on average see three or four deer grazing around the retention areas. it amazes me to be this much "in nature" and at the same time i'm horrified to live in such a sprawl zone.

so far i've not found a tick on me or my dogs -- but, i'm sure they're out here.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. Not matched, but the same organism which has mutated here in the US
due to radiation in the environment.

The article you site says that they are different types not "matched"

I would argue that the deer issue is nowhere near as important a the mice issue which are everywhere.

People, who have moved their homes farther and farther into the woods (the suburbs came to the deer, not vice versa, although some deer herds are growing) are moving into winderness areas where there are mice and deer and other critters (even birds) which carry the ticks around. Blaming the deer (or failure to mass murder deer) primarily as a problem when there is evidence that this mutated strain was caused by man made radiation in the local radiation effluents in and around Lyme, is something I object to.

There is some evidence too that the mutating bacteria came from a bioweapons lab near Lyme on an Island in Long Island Sound. Actually the highest rate of Lyme disease anywhere is right next to both the nuke plant and the bioweapons lab (within about three or so miles of each).

I have been researching this for a long time. I worked in the nuke industry for awhile and worked with whistleblowers.

The scariest thing about this pollution is that it causes mutations in bacteria and viruses which occur so rapidly that we have no immunity from them (Lyme, West Nile, bird flu, Norwalk "cruiseship" virus and many others developed and/or spread primarily in close proximity downwind of radiation effluent pipes at nuke plants.

I would suggest folks who know little about this to read anything by Dr. Ernest Sternglass which can be found linked at www.radiation.org. H e was a protege of Einstein and worked in the industry. He is the scientist who explained this problem to me. The sp
These pandemics were predicted by Andrei Sakharov in the 1950's and was the basis, in part, for an agreement with the Soviets for the discontinuation of above ground nuclear tests (even though underground tests and nuke effluents also cause the same problem, just more locally, as with Lyme.

Blaming the deer is like blaming Santa Claus.


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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Damn!! Liberation Angel beat me to it.
Having been in the fields and forests of North Carolina and Georgia for most of my 62 years, I have been speculating recently about the proliferation of ticks and tick-borne diseases.

A few days ago I was chatting with a retired Special Forces Colonel when the topic of ticks and Lyme disease came up. We both agreed that we never heard of ticks causing so many diseases when we were both growing up and spending much of our time outdoors in what would now be tick-infested woodlands and fields. So, I'm not alone in my assessment that this is a relatively new phenomenon.

Back in '68, during an NBC (Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical) warfare class I was first informed that there was a disease known as Rocky Mountain Spotted Tick Fever. It was introduced to us military types as one form of BIOLOGICAL WARFARE agent that our military was experimenting with (and which we might have to face someday). Beyond being told about Tick Fever I do not remember any precautions or antidotes we were informed of.

Liberation Angel's comments about a mutated tick disease struck me as something that would fit the timeline and might actually be a real possibility. Given that nuclear power plants did not come on line until 1961 and the first ones were in New York state there could be something more here than an amazing coincidence.

Anyone else have any anecdotal or scientific evidence to discuss about this interesting topic.

Also, I wonder what it was that the good Dr. did NOT tell and why they sent a handler over to supervise the interview (or to remind the Dr. that he shouldn't say TOO much).

Recommend.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. have you heard of the book "Lab 257: the disturbing story of the govt's secret Plum Island Germ Lab"
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 06:29 PM by nashville_brook
here's a link to google books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aLyWOYcC3zAC&dq=lab+257&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=3ZxGSs2KCsHDtwenovi2Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

here's a snippet describing the book vis a vis Lyme Disease:
http://www.lymediseaseresource.com/Lab_257.html

"Lab 257", written by Michael C. Carroll, has appeared at a time when hundreds of thousands of people are searching for answers about Lyme disease, (which may soon become one of the largest epidemics of all recorded time.) The book reads better than your favorite spy thriller, but finishes like a horror novel instead of a documentary.

Mr. Carroll convincingly traces the recent outbreak of West Nile disease to faulty security measures at a government testing lab on Plum Island just off the coast of Long Island. West Nile was a deadly germ that was kept in a very secure freezer along with hundreds of other diseases including Lyme. The story gets worse when a hurricane knocks the power out for a long enough time that the freezers contents melted and activated, from there we see the evidence of a worsening epidemic with no way to measure the true results of the outbreak - firstly because there is no adequate test to diagnose Lyme disease, and secondly because there are many who refuse to acknowledge the disaster.

here's an Indymedia article about Lyme as a Bioweapon:


US Government Admits Lyme Disease Is A Bioweapon
The existence of the Lyme disease epidemic is officially covered up in the UK, its myriad presentations routinely misdiagnosed as everything from "M.E." to MS to hypochondria. This is the first admission by a US government body that the cause is an incapacitating biowar agent

author: Lymerayja


SAN ANTONIO (AP) -- The $10.6 million Margaret Batts Tobin Laboratory Building will provide a 22,000-square-foot facility to study such diseases as anthrax, tularemia, cholera, lyme disease, desert valley fever and other parasitic and fungal diseases. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention identified these diseases as potential bioterrorism agents.".

http://www.uh.edu/ednews/2005/fwst/200511/20051114bioterrorism.html

So, for the first time, a US government body admits that Lyme disease is a biological warfare agent. This is the reason that hundreds of thousands of men, women and children around the world have been left to rot with wrong diagnoses, or have had their Lyme disease acknowledged but been told that it is an "easily-treated" disease, given 3 weeks' antibiotics, then told to shove off when their symptoms carried on after that. In Britain the existence of the epidemic is denied completely, and virtually no effort made to warn or educate the public about the dangers of ticks, which carry the bacteria Borrelia burgdorferi.

The Borrelia genus has been a subject of biowar experimentation at least as far back as WW2, when the infamous Japanese Unit 731, which tortured and experimented on live prisoners, studied it. The reality is, Lyme disease is for many a chronic, horrendous, incapacitating disease producing crippling fatigue, constant pain, loss of memory, possible paralysis, psychosis, blindness and even death.

It was an ideal biowar agent because it evades detection on routine tests, has an enormous range of different presentations, and can mimic everything from ADHD to multiple sclerosis to carpal tunnel syndrome to rheumatoid arthritis to chronic fatigue syndrome (M.E.) to lupus to schizophrenia. Enemy medical staff would never know what had hit them, nor even that ONE illness had hit their population, rather than an unexplained rise in dozens of known conditions.

Honest doctors and scientists who tried to treat or research Lyme disease according to ethical principles have been viciously persecuted by government-backed organisations in the US, Europe and elsewhere. Many specialists in the US were threatened with loss of their license or had anonymous, false allegations sent to the medical board, which tied them up in mountains of paperwork and legal fees...some were forced out of medicine or even driven to suicide.

Instead, medical disinfo agents, most of whom have a background in military/biowarfare units, such as Dr Allen Steere, Mark Klempner, Philip Baker, Edward McSweegan, David Dennis, Alan Barbour etc were enabled to assume top positions in Lyme research , CDC, NIH etc from where they issued false information , covering up the true seriousness and chronic nature of the disease, and comdemned untold numbers to a living


here's a story about Lab 257 from CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/books/04/02/lab.257/


The mysterious lab off New York's shore
'Lab 257' offers horror stories -- and dispute

By Adam Dunn
Special to CNN


NEW YORK (CNN) -- Oops.

That's the word that comes to mind when reading Michael Carroll's thoroughly nerve-wracking book, "Lab 257" (William Morrow), about the federal germ facility on Plum Island. The island sits off the eastern tip of Long Island's North Fork and it's home to some of the deadliest microbes festering on the planet. According to Carroll's book, the island -- and laboratory -- are also home to slipshod construction, poor safeguards, and lax security. "Lab 257" claims errors at the facility caused Lyme disease outbreaks and health problems for the local population -- claims disputed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which ran the facility until recently.

...

Carroll noted the biological weapons being developed were not for use against humans, but rather against the human food supply, hence the classification as an animal disease lab. "Plum Island and Lab 257, as it was designed by the army, was not specifically geared towards germ warfare against people, but against food," Carroll stated. "It was designed to destroy any animal that could be deemed a food animal. ... thinking at the time was that even better than germ warfare against people, germ warfare against food would also starve civilian populations as well, which would force them into submission." However, germs are pesky critters, and Carroll believes the facility dubbed "the safest lab in the world" was in fact a series of problems kept hidden.

Carroll: 'Safety completely went downhill'

Much of Carroll's research was done through interviews with nearby residents, as well as documents and reports. While the government was "cooperative at the outset," Carroll said (he was granted exclusive access to the island six times), he was later denied access to the facility by the Washington office of the USDA.

Nevertheless, he said he learned plenty, particularly about the safety of the labs.

"For decades, this was a place that put bread on the table and provided good federal benefits for ," he said. "So for many years, the word on the street ... it was sort of, 'loose lips sink ships' and 'let's keep this thing quiet.' But what happened was, after privatized the island and they stripped all these workers of their benefits ... one person was doing the job of two and three people ... safety completely went downhill. And people began to talk about it."

Carroll isn't the first to offer criticism. In 2002, after a power outage on the island, New York's WABC-TV did a story on whether containment procedures worked; several employees questioned the lab's safety. In 2003, the General Accounting Office listed security problems on the island, partially prompted by a whistleblower, Jim McCoy, who protested the management of a private concern....

more at link
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I read that book. Very scary.
It also amazes me that they have a Lyme vaccine for pets but not for humans.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. i did not know that. wtf. i hope we aren't giving something to pets that
we wouldn't necessarily give to humans.
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AnotherDreamWeaver Donating Member (917 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. Link not showing up
This link: http://www.uh.edu/ednews/2005/fwst/200511/20051114bioterrorism.html
will not present in my browser (Safari). It reverts to: http://www.uh.edu/about/offices/
Not sure why, but thought I would share the info.

I live on the Calif. Coast where I get ticks all the time. Pull ticks off the dogs almost daily. Have been checked but told "Negative" on tests, though I don't know how good the tests are, and I have been told some are better at finding the critter or evidence of them being present than other tests. Don't know the names of the tests but have several neighbors who claim to have contacted the lyme disease. This year there seems to be a huge increase in the population of hard bodied ticks with the white horse shoe marking on them. Some days we get as many as 40 ticks off the dogs. We also have the little deer ticks that are the size of a pin head, which I understand is the carrier for lyme disease.

With everyone talking about biolabs, I will mention that Stanford University had a biolab not far North of where I live. It is no longer on USGS maps, but is on older maps (made in the fourtys or fiftys). There is talk the the senior bush went there to visit while he was president and attended the BoHoGrove summer camp. (the lab is about an hours drive from there). Folks going up the dirt road to the place to investigate on bicycles were reported as being turned around by guys in black suits and sunglasses.

For what it's worth...
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I live on eastern LI> In addition to Plum Island there is the Gamma Ray Forest not that far
from here.

Plum Island is VERY close, as the crow flies.

Also close (but not quite) is the Brookhaven National Lab and a site known as the Gamma Ray Forest which I never heard about until a LI teenager did a report about it and won an award.

Googling it brings up little info.

George Woodell (an environmentalist, btw) did an 18 year experiement with a barrel of Cesium 137 in the middle of Brookhaven Pine and Oak forest. Just allowed it to remain open. It would be lethal for a human to be near that much for any length of time.



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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. is Gamma Ray Forest the name of Brookhaven Pine and Oak Forest post-Woodell's experiment?
So cool that a high school dug up that story!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. I was driving about 5 years ago and the kid just happened to be interviewed on college radio
otherwise, I'd never have heard of it.

And the cite for the info I posted above is from a google search book that has lists of experiments labs and govt did on public with radiation. It causes DNA to mutate.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Have any links?
I wasn't able to find much on Google at all and I'd love to read about this.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. just found the name of the teen who did the study
Smithtown


Superina, Nicholas Joseph (Smithtown High School) Full Bio
Gamma Forest at Brookhaven National Laboratory New York: Geobotanical Analysis
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Finally, here's some info
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 08:33 PM by KittyWampus
First is a link to the book on google Nuclear War & Other Major Muclear Diasters of 20th Century.

It has info on radiation experiments done on citizens.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3D3_2ILEQQqpIC%26pg%3DPA68%26lpg%3DPA68%26dq%3D18%2Byear%2Bradiation%2Bexperiment%2B1961%2Bcesium%2B137%26source%3Dbl%26ots%3DkwKN6yL8dQ%26sig%3Db7Ej7ab9YL6RM1sVQD_ygzG_ll8%26hl%3Den%26ei%3D3sdGSoytJpCftgfh6LmtBg%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dbook_result%26ct%3Dresult%26resnum%3D3&ei=3sdGSoytJpCftgfh6LmtBg&usg=AFQjCNFu6t4b8k3q6S1fCGMhCU4r98SooQ&sig2=ysuGgXt6Sv-OeuwwDzJZ_A


http://www.springerlink.com/content/u46300176946234j/

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1934825

More-

The Nuclear Neighborhood

AT the geographic center of Long Island, just before the fish tail splits, three plumes of radioactive tritium snake through the earth. These plumes extend from soil beneath Brookhaven National Laboratory, where they originated during experiments involving one of the lab’s nuclear reactors in the late 1990s, and travel by groundwater east and south.

The United States Department of Energy, which owns the Brookhaven lab, recently posted a legal notice in local newspapers requesting public comment on some options for cleanup. The department offered five plans for the public to consider, from simply monitoring the plumes to digging up the contaminated soil and shipping it to an undisclosed location. The department recommends monitoring to be sure the plumes shrink over the next decade as predicted. And if they don’t? “Additional actions will be evaluated.”

The department’s notice directed readers to a Web site. Two maps there are particularly educational. The first is called Operable Units and Areas of Concern. It highlights 30 sites on the lab’s campus, including Graphite Research Reactor spill sites, a Building 830 pipe leak and a Particle Beam Dump. There is also the 123-acre stand of pines and oaks known as the Gamma Forest, which was irradiated with cesium-137 between 1961 and 1979 in order to research the effects of radiation on plants.

snip

The second map outlines groundwater flow from the lab; two bright blue arrows point east toward the Hamptons, and six point south directly at Shirley, a mostly blue-collar community to the south that shares the Hamptons’ beautiful coastline but none of their social cachet.

I grew up in Shirley. As a child there in the 1980s, I was fascinated by the lab, partly because the neighborhood fathers who worked there — most of them in support and service positions — traded jokes about glowing in the dark. Today, the jokes have turned sour.

A class action lawsuit has been filed against the Brookhaven lab, and most of the plaintiffs are from the Shirley area. The complaints range from depressed real estate values as a result of living in a contaminated area to the claim that cancers and other illnesses have resulted from the laboratory’s pollution. A children’s cancer cluster — by 2000 there were 19 children in the area afflicted by a rare soft-tissue cancer — rings the lab like a necklace.

snip

When Brookhaven was constructed in 1947, Shirley didn’t exist; most of the East End of Long Island was covered in potato farms and brush. It was this isolation — the thick cover of pines and distance from large populations — that made the site attractive to scientists engaged in such inherently dangerous research.

Sixty years later, the laboratory is still hidden away in the middle of the Pine Barrens, but beneath it lies an aquifer that is one of the nation’s largest single sources of drinking water, serving nearly three million people.

snip

Meanwhile, the lab released radioactive tritium, cesium, europium, radium, strontium, plutonium and several known carcinogens into the environment. Cancer rates on Long Island have soared without explanation. For many of these cancers, including breast cancer, the only proven cause, aside from genetic predisposition, is exposure to radiation.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/opinion/nyregionopinions/12LI-McMasters.html
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. omg -- they did that on the aquifer. amazing.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. check out
www.radiation.org

and also google Sakharov and pandemic and radiation

in fact I'll try that now...
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
42. Andrei Sakharov father of the Soviet H-Bomb- pissed off the Soviets
when he told them that the mutation of bacteria and viruses caused by radiation from nuke tests would cause global pandemics and mass death because the mutated bacteria and viruses would be impossible for us to develop immunity to. Whie they go through millions of generations we only go through one or two.

So something caused a spirochete that we had been living or cohabiting with for millions of years to suddenly become deadly and disabling. That something, according to many scientsts, as with bird flu, norwalk "cruiseship" virus. SARS, west nile, and Lyme,is radioactive effluents and emissions. SARS developed downwind of nuke plants near Hong Kong mutating viruses in the chhickens there. Norwalk virus is from the nuke plant in Norwalk Ohio. West Nile became a major problem downwind of of Indian Point in NY.

Bt the nuke indistry wants us not to know that so they actively keep it suppressed.and harshly attack anyone who raises these issues

Plum Island is right next to Lyme, btw, and the leaky nuke plants on the East Lyme (Niantic) harbor in and on Long Island Sound. Spotted fever ws researched there and may have escaped and been further mutated due to mutagenic effluents in the earth, air and water close by.

I always suggest that people learn more at www. radiation.org and especially the writings of Dr. Ernest Sternglass (lined at that site) who worked in the nuke industry and whose credentials are impeccable (He was the director for NASA and Westinghouse of the Apollo Lunar Scientific Station Project - which was to be the first scientific station on the moon - whose budget was killed by Nixon so he could invade Cambodia and Laos in 1970). He became a whistleblower when he began to study the effects of radiation on infant development, infant mortality, genetic mutations in utero, and other birth defects.

Thanks for the props


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960 Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R. I may or may not have lyme disease. I was critically ill and almost died
when I was 2 or 3 from a tick bite. I never had conclusive tests, but my parents (mom is a med. prof) are sure it was Lyme.

I often wonder if I still have the disease, and what symptoms may be coming.
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sunwyn Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. I have had lyme since 1996....
I have tried all the conventional therapies with minimial success. I lost my job a year ago due to this illness. I am outraged by the governments response to this disease. I would love to know how anyone gets disability from the government for lyme. I have tried unsuccessfully for 8 yrs now.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I am sorry.
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Have you heard of the
protocol where you take 20 - 30 days of a Penicillin drug and then 50 days of Diflucan?

http://www.prohealth.com/me-cfs/blog/boardDetail.cfm?id=550313
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Parker CA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Sunwyn, how long ago were you actually diagnosed? When you say you've tried all the conventional
treatments, which specifically have you tried?
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nannah Donating Member (690 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. eligibility for ssdi or ssi is pretty straightforward!
the standard is unable to do the tasks of any job due to objectively documented limits in your ability to perform physical tasks, communication tasks, tasks requiring manual dexterity, analytical or accounting skills for example. People are seen as unable to perform the tasks of the job when their objectively documented problems interfere with work tasks they might reasonably be able to do based on education and past work history or their potential to retrain to work compatible with their "transferable skills". high school graduates are expected to be able to do "sedentary work" by virtue of their education.

key works are "objective medical evidence" and "tasks of a job". this does not weigh someone's ability to get a job nor the availability of the work in your area. If you are a high school graduate and under age 50 you are considered able to do sedentary work. sedentary is the lightest type of work in so far as physical tasks are concerned. Other aspects of work performance can be measured with memory, intelligence testing, neuropsychological testing, range of motion and dexterity measurements to name some of the objective evidence used to document disability.

If you describe your symptoms i might be able to help you. i have worked as an ssdi and ssi facilitator for 18 years.
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sunwyn Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. I was diagnosed in 96, 97, 98, 200, 2002, 2006
I have had no health care since 2006 and no money to afford treatent. I was initially diagnosed before reliable tests were found and am unsure how long the lyme was a real factor in my health problems. I was diagnosed after partial paralysis and a spinal tap was run. The disease was for in the spinal fluid. After years of antibiotics, steriods, oxygen therapy, etc. I still suffer from brain fog, arthritis, memory lapses, muscle spasms to name a few symptoms. I was told that lyme was not recognized as a chronic diseaseby our government
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
19. Plumb Island. That's all I'm saying. nt
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Hmmm,
Edited on Sat Jun-27-09 07:38 PM by havocmom
edited to add: Interestingly, it shows a bit blurry on google earth while just to the west, Long Island is shown remarkably clear.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. That's an intentional-looking blur
Gaussian, not an artifact of a lack of resolution.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. LOL Sorta what I thought too
Edited on Sun Jun-28-09 01:19 PM by havocmom
The buildings even resemble the way my architectural cad program shows elevations
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
31. This is poor fiction, even by the usual standards
I've read Nigerian e-mail scams more credible.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Please explain "poor fiction" HiFructosePronSyrup.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. do explain. didn't know we had a Lyme specialist on the DU -- what's up?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
38. Wow, that is frightening.
I didn't know that Borrelia is THAT nasty!!! I thought Lyme Disease was something that went away with a simple antibiotic treatment like any other bacterial infection.

Dr. Burgdorfer: The similarities that I know of are associated with the infection of the brain, the nervous system. The syphilis spirochete, Treponema pallidum has an affinity for nerve tissues. The Borrelia burgdorferi spirochete very likely has that too. Children are especially sensitive to Borrelia burgdorferi.

The Lyme disease spirochete is far more virulent than syphilis. We don’t know the end yet. And can’t even make a smear with Borrelia burgdorferi and see the organism. It’s there. But you don’t see it. You cannot find this spirochete. Why not? After all, I have a sick person here. He is trembling all over. His synovial fluid is full of spirochetes. But when it comes to blood, it’s not there. So there is something associated with this organism that makes it different.


:scared:
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
44. Radiation induced or influenced pandemics
Edited on Mon Jun-29-09 09:10 AM by Liberation Angel
Fallout, Swine Flu, And A Pandemic Of Awareness

By Andrew Kishner

11 May, 2009
Countercurrents.org

"If you haven't thought of the possibility that epidemic influenzas such as 'swine flu,' or 'H1N1 virus,' may come about as a result of low-level radiation in the form of fallout that covers the Earth, neither did I. That was until last week when someone proposed the idea to me.

"It all sounds like something out of a science fiction novel: 'a catastrophic nuclear war in 2030 covers the Earth with toxic radioactive fallout that gives rise to mutant viruses which infect and destroy surviving clusters of humans...' But, back in the 1950s, the so-called ‘father of the hydrogen bomb’ predicted that the radioactive fallout from the ‘Cold War’ could accelerate the rise of mutant pathogens, including influenzas.

"Andrei Sakharov, the atomic scientist-turned-critic, wrote in his book 'Memoirs' (published last decade) that in the late 1950s he suggested 'that a global increase in mutations of bacteria and viruses...might have been an important factor in the spread of such diseases as diphtheria in the nineteenth century, or the influenza epidemic, and that low-level radiation might further increase the rate of mutations.’

"Sakharov's 1950’s prediction may have come true according to a rare grouping of scientists who have connected the rise of certain diseases and disorders with the peaking of radioactive emissions from nuclear power plants on regional scales or nuclear testing on a global scale. Sara Shannon, author of 'Technology's Curse: Diet for the Atomic Age,' wrote in the late 1990s that new ailments such as Reyes Syndrome, Legionnaire's Disease, and Lyme Disease (and possibly AIDS) may be related to the deadly combination of immune systems weakened and virus mutations worsened by the presence of man-made radiation. Shannon notes that Lyme Disease appeared in about the same year that a huge radiation release from one of two Connecticut nuclear power plants occurred. She speculated that the radioactive fallout in southeastern Connecticut may have mutated the spirochete in tick-borne Lyme Disease, which has now spread to Canada and numerous U.S. states. If you consider that nuclear testing fallout spread to nearly every square mile of the Earth, still hasn’t fully decayed and is detectable in nearly every country's food chains, including livestock, then you get a better idea of the possibility that all viruses or bacteria everywhere have an increased chance of mutating into something worse."


More at link:
http://www.countercurrents.org/kishner110509.htm
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
45. Real Lyme disease exists. However, it is massively overdiagnosed, and
there is a huge network of "special" labs that use questionable tests to identify Lyme in people with vague, nonspecific complaints. These labs cater to and create hysterical illnesses and make millions in the process. There is a reason there is huge comorbidity between Lyme diagnosed in these fly-by-night settings and other hysterical illnesses such as Morgellon's Disease.

The CDC has guidelines for diagnosis of true Lyme.

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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
46. just feel thi needs some love
a little love kick for the am crowd

important scary info
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-30-09 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
47. ttt
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