Strengthen Society, ... Bring Back The Draft.

[emanymton]

.

A national community draft can be a useful tool for social engineering. Combining this with a military service draft can be beneficial to all. The idea could be a useful program for improving the future for _all_ people of USA and strengthening society in general.

Requiring members of a community to perform public service as a part of being included in a community, benefits both the person and society. This is done by connecting the person to the community. Keeping people involved with the system. Keeping system honest.

A professional military that is detached from the civilian society can represent a threat to that society. Chile's recent history, with its ruling military class and General Augusto Pinochet, is an example of what can happen. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are examples where such a very small sliver of society felt the direct affects of members fighting in the war, that society as a whole is able to turn its back on the people serving in the wars. A compulsory community service requirement (conscription or draft) can help avoid this possible situation,

Drafting members of a community into public service to and for the good of the community has benefits.

1. Reinforces the connection of the knowledgeable individual to the community. Reinforcing the connection of the person to the community by allowing the person to provide needed services. (Pool of trained representatives available to use within the community.) Working as a trained life-guard at the local community swimming pool gives outlet for quality of life activities and programs.

2. Keeps the people involved with their community and society. Community centers with well trained and profession staff keep the human network working for people. It involves people in their communities. An example of this is parents, as their children go through school become active in the school.

3. Ensures the system remains true to its roots and focused on serving the individuals/community/country. The flow of people into and through the system ensure the system provides the desired services. Police and fire department personnel drawing from the local community, allows the society to meet the needs of the area.

Public health care can be positively affected by enlarging the availability of opportunities. A community could offer to pay for the schooling of a needed medical specialist in exchange for medical coverage for a specified period of time.

The system from the local level, state, up to and including the federal, is not a mystery. The administration (government) held accountable from within. Schools work best when administration, parents and students are directly involved.

A young person can be given a choice, upon graduation from school, to enter military service (i.e. for a shorter period) or go into community service (i.e. for a longer period). In the end, society has a pool of trained talent ready for extended use to the community and the military remains rooted in its society.

A peacetime conscription can be a good way for teaching a population basic, important skills such as first aid, swimming, and wilderness survival. Conscription can make for a more disciplined and skilled workforce, as men and women leave the military or community service and take the skills which they honed there back to their civilian jobs.

FYI - Nothing here is breathtakingly new. It was the working model in USA in the 1950's. Germany uses the same general template today. The programs could be updated and applied quickly.

~@:o?
.

[MadHound]

1. Sorry, but until we eliminate our militaristic, imperial tendencies, no draft

All a military draft would do is enable these continuing, ongoing illegal, immoral wars that we're currently engaged in. More fodder for the cannons, more fuel for the fire. No thanks.

[emanymton]

3. Not Necessarily

.

The will of the majority of the society would be reflected in the pool of incoming people. The families would also be affected and thus be influenced and influential.

The option of non-military service allows for wider ranges of opportunity to serve and not become overly militaristic.

~@:o?
.

[cyclezealot]

12. Build a sense of community. What community.

Many medium sized towns I know of no longer support a local newspaper.. How can community exist where there is no communication.

[Oregone]

81. Well, a fascist community

Is that better than none at all?

[zeemike]

14. you have it backward.

A militaristic society depends on a professional military and recruits that are there because they like it and enjoy the adrenalin rush of blowing people away...and that is what we have now with the added benefit to the military industrial complex of private contractors.
The non militaristic military can only be achieved if people are recruited that are not there for the action, which would be what a draft would give them.
Men and women that serve because it is there duty not there vice.

[emanymton]

35. Really?

.

"Men and women that serve because it is there duty not there vice."

Agree with you.

USA is not a militaristic society. USA has militaristic corporate tendencies. Turning one's back on its military is not good for any group of people.

~@:o?
.

[Boojatta]

111. "enjoy the adrenalin rush of blowing people away"

That's an interesting recruitment procedure: you kill someone and then you can begin basic training. When did that become the norm?

[anonymous171]

114. Actually, people would probably be less likely to support war when their own sons

are at risk.

[Fumesucker]

2. Temporary slavery is still slavery..

"Community service" is simply letting the political class designate a certain subset of the population as slaves of once sort or another, even if only temporarily.

I neither trust nor like our politicians enough to allow them this level of power.

[emanymton]

6. Society Exists

.

"I neither trust nor like our politicians enough to allow them this level of power."

Your community reflects your level of involvement. For your society to work for you, you must work for your society.

One may decide to minimize one's active involvement as one chooses. Society exists all the same.

~@:o?
.

[Fumesucker]

9. No it doesn't..

The community today is all about power, those who have it and those who don't.

And those who have the power today are those who have the money, mostly the corporatists.

Have you been paying any attention at all to what is going on in DC these days?

We supposedly got a new leaf turned over and yet, for most practical purposes, nothing has changed.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

23. Well said, Fumesucker! Strengthen Society, ... Cull The Daft. n/t

[Democracyinkind]

4. I understand where you're coming from, but as an officer in an all draft army I can tell you

that neither 1,2 or 3 really is directly related to whether it is a draft army or not. On paper, I'd agree with what you write, it does kind of seem logic. But the draft is a moral and financial hell-hole, and all in all, the community that I am part of currently would be better off without the all draft army - the all draft army is neither taken seriously, nor respected, nor does it have much opportunities to actually help and give back.

And yeah, it's unconstitutional in my opinion.Say I'm a bygone literalist but I just don't think the constitution provide us with either the right for the kind of army that we have now nor for the right to draft. I'm always confused how the right to raise an army in case of need is confused with building an empire. I wouldn't see the draft helping to fight against that trend.

[zeemike]

19. Well I was in the service during the draft years...1960-67

And i would not recognize the military today.
Then the mess hall was run by the military...the cooks the mess men were all service men not private contractors and corporate businessmen serving Pizza and fast food to the troops.
And when you needed an electrician it was a service man not a man from Halliburton that did the work...and truck drivers were service men not KB&R who make 10 times what a service man would make.
The military then was a self contained unit that did not depend on private contractors for there sustenance.

And the reason why the Mei Lie massacre came to light was because some of the troops refused to follow the orders of Lt Calli...I doubt that that there would be any in todays army that would refuse the orders much less blow the whistle on them.

[emanymton]

22. Thank You. ... You Make One Of My Points.

.

"And the reason why the Mei Lie massacre came to light was because some of the troops refused to follow the orders of Lt Calli...I doubt that that there would be any in todays army that would refuse the orders much less blow the whistle on them."

The military reflects the values of the society. Drafting people from an open free society keeps the military influenced by the society. The leadership of the military also reflects the society's values.

~@:o?
.

[Democracyinkind]

34. I'm totally on your side when it comes to privatization - but

there are plenty of examples of non-draft armies around the world that do not rely on private contractors for all those jobs. I see that with a draft army it would be imposible to reasonably enforce this sham privatization, but that doesn't mean that you couldn't have a small, professional army that is non-privatized, even in its peripheral activities.

And, as the German draft might have proven: Once you get those boys into the hell hole it doesn't make that great of a difference if they were drafted or if they volunteered. Shockingly, the rate of desertion and unwilligness to enforce inhuman orders was about the same over all the forces. Granted, Germany and its genocidal war program isn't a good template, but it might just provide a glimpse of how a drafted generation might react in an all-out war, not a "Limited" regional conflict. It's complicated, and while I have sympathy for your example of My Lai, I'm not sure that the same thing would nevessarily be true of WW2 and other "total" conflicts.

[zeemike]

57. But we have always had a small professional military.

There were always officers and men that made a carrier out of the military, and that is very important...but the bulk of the soldiers in war time were drafted...and in peace time they did not need that many, so most of them were volunteers and potential carrier men...or as the practice was in some places in the 50s the judge might give the troubled youth a choice of the military or jail and the services would get a few youngsters that needed the discipline of the military....and by the way I know of more than one case where that judge did the kid a favor and it worked.

This system worked to keep war crimes to a minimum because most of the soldiers were from the at large population and so reflected the moral values of that generation, and so to rape a enemy girl you had better make sure that none of your fellow soldiers know about it....unless they are a pervert like you.

But the German "Draft" was noting like ours...it was compulsory for all young men and those young men came from schools that taught them of the glory of killing and steeped their minds with hate....quite different than our system.
But the professional German military had the perfect system for them...recrutes that were already indoctrinated and striped of their moral principles...and they loved it.

[Democracyinkind]

75. I agree with the first part. the last sentence is bull.

I think our disagreement lies in what "draft" means. the way I used "draft" in my last posts was as in compulsory, universal service for everyone, which I assume is what the OP is promoting. That is a different thing than Selective Service or the old system.

My point with the german draft was the following: Historically, we can now see that there was not such a great difference between the volunteers (SA, integrated into the Wehrmacht / SS, integrated to the war system (partly)) and the compulsorily drafted (Wehrmacht, Kommandos). This surprising fact shows that in a setting of a total war it does not necessarily follow that a broad recruiting base for the military guarantees humane warfare. It's a likeable concept, but it is just not true for many wars. Of course, this observation can only be made if you exclude all groups that were created for the single cause of genocide (the Einsatzgruppen and the SD, f.e.).

And, having studied the subject, I don't believe that the Wehrmacht was overindoctrinated or that a significant part of the draftees loved it. As Holden Caulfield was told, there were just as many assholes in the US army as there were in the Wehrmacht. Of course, as you have pointed out, there was a certain amount of pre-recruitment indoctrination that certainly helped to delay resistance and criticism of the system, the war and the army, but to say that there is evidence that "they loved it" - is something no honest historian would claim, as far as I have read.

As I said, with a universal draft, you don't necessarily get a socially and ethnically mixed combat troop. There is empiric proof that the hard jobs fall to the politically marginalized, whether it is a universal democratic draft army or an oligarchic club like the Russian army. The problem must be somewhere else, maybe in the command structures, but simply forcing everyone into service won't "glue the classes together" and it won't "prevent war crimes" in a significant way.

I base this assertion on the fact of my experience with a universally drafted army, of which I have forcibly been part ever since I'm 19, and on what I had to read to obtain my degree in modern history. I held similar views like the OP before I gained either experience, and maybe that is what makes me so skeptical of the "this is just true" air of the OP.

[zeemike]

78. "ever since I'm 19"

Does that mean you are still in the military? And how old are you?
That is important because the privatization of the military goes back to the Johnson administration.
I know that because my job in the military was given to a Civil Service worker making 4 or 5 times as much as I did.
And I also knew a Wehmacht soldier that was my instructor in A school...he was 14 when he was captured by the Americans and later join the US Marines. And he told some interesting storys....and he admitted that he was clueless as to what was happening in the world and was indoctrinated in the party throughout his school years.

But compulsory service is good for all of us...I would suggest a two year stint for all 18 year olds as part of their education...it sjhould be a requirment for higher education...and that does not mean military service.
There far more peace time jobs that need doing to build and maintain this freedom we have and someone needs to give back to the community instead of just taking all the benefits.

[Democracyinkind]

80. ...

I'm not talking about the US army, I'm a double citizen, and was trying to share my experience with a (non.american) universal-draft army.

And of course. The kids born around 27-35 we're the most indoctrinated kids ever probably. But they didn't fight the war.

Look. I totally agree with the underlying ideas of the last part of your post. But my experience tells me that if the system is honest it is cheaper, more efficient and more practical to have community service or reconstruction and stuff organized in a non-military, non-draft way.

In reality it is just not so clear that a civilian corps. of some kind is the best method for community service or reconstruction or whatever. I'm just trying to bring in my experience. The country I live in is a good example. Here you get to decide to either join the army or join a "Civilian Service and Protection Corps", a non-weaponized unit that coexists with the army and does allot of construction, emergency help and that stuff. And although this Swiss corps. is probably the most successful ever in history, there are still allot of critics who demonstrate empirically that it is a major waste of money, personnel and resources and that it could be organized leaner, more effective and more efficient if it wasn't part of the universal draft system and could break loose of the traditional restrictions that come with that system (having to employ morons, having to maintain regional centers, having to take part of the "rice bowl" game instead of getting the funds needed, having to rely on discarded military equipment and know-how, and having the air of being the "military for wimps").

[zeemike]

83. Frankly all the criticisms of your system sound petty to me.

But that comes from an American and the American experience where we have no problem blowing billions on bridges to nowhere and spend noting on community service or preparing the young for the real world.

All of my experience is with the US military and it was at a time when the military was still using the draft to fill slots that volunteers did not fill, and then in the later times of Viet Nam as fodder for the war.
And in the 7 years I was in I saw the changes start to take place...and those changes made it possible for these preemptive wars that we have had sense the 80s.

[Democracyinkind]

84. They are petty. But they add up to millions on the tax bill.

I think we share the same premise: If the system was administered wisely we could make allot of progress utilizing things like the Army Corps of Engineers or expanding them.

My worry is that there would be the need to drastically change the mindest, outlook and operational procedures of our National Security Elite to achieve something like that - draft or no draft.

[zeemike]

93. There has to be a drastic change in mindset for a lot of things

If we are to find solutions to our problems...if not things will continue to get worse.
And I am not sure it will ever happen in my lifetime...but it will happen ether by our own will or out of the need to save ourselves from extinction.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

50. This post is a big fat FAIL

"And the reason why the Mei Lie massacre came to light was because some of the troops refused to follow the orders of Lt Calli...I doubt that that there would be any in todays army that would refuse the orders much less blow the whistle on them."

This comment is very offensive. I am not going to pretend to know the character of the men who served in the military back in the 60's and you shouldn't do the same for those who serve now.

[zeemike]

62. And those who don't learn from history will repeat it.

And I was in the military during Mi Lie and do know the mentality that not only made the massacre take place but the character that exposed it.

And franky after seeing all the atrocities of the last eight years is there some reason I should doubt the character of our troops?
The one thing that convinced me I am right to think this way was a video clip in Iraq of 4 soldiers behind a wall taking shots at a wounded Iraqi laying on the ground in front of them badly wonded...and laughing and giving hi fives each time one of them hit him with a bullit....
If there were 4 random people taken from the populous would at least one of them say STOP IT you assholes!

[Brooklyns_Finest]

107. What movie was this?

You see one "clip" (of course you do not produce the clip or the context of it) and now you deem all US troops as blood thirsty killers. These kind of stereo types makes it hard for guys like me to convince the republicans that were in my platoon that the democratic party has something to offer them.

[Waiting For Everyman]

5. I don't know where

you get the idea that this was the "working model" of anything in the 1950s. I remember no such thing. There may have been a draft for the Korean War but that's it. No community service.

I don't think anything should be compulsory.

[emanymton]

10. Peace Time Draft

.

Throughout the 1950's the military services drafted young men for required service. Probably the most famous was Elvis Presley.

Direct community service was not an option. You are correct. The working model was the military draft.

~@:o?
.

[DrDan]

7. it worked well in molding the moral values of our prior VP

[emanymton]

16. Not My Role Model. ... Why Is He Yours?

.

~@;o/
.

[DrDan]

66. I said that?

[SpiralHawk]

8. "I'm ready for the draft - have my excuse handy" - Rush Limbaugh (R)

"Bring the draft on -- I know I'll never rate 5 deferments like our Top Republicon Oil & War Profiteer Dickie Cheney, but I'm sure with my famous Skanky Ass Pimple, and my drug addiction, I can score draft-dodging deferment number 2 - Smirk"

- Rush Limbaugh (R - Leader)

[emanymton]

17. If Trash Limbaughski Is Your Role Model ...

.

You might want to seek serious help.

~@:o?
.

[Fumesucker]

21. Two people have pointed out what happens when there is a draft..

The rich and powerful are excluded while the poor and powerless are drafted.

And yet you accuse the posters of looking up to their examples as "role models", a very lame dodge of their point.

We all know damn well that the rich and powerful will be excluded from any draft that is within the realm of political possibility in America as it stands today.

[emanymton]

26. Not . ... Draft Board Decides

.

Served in Viet Nam. One foxhole buddy was a drafted Master Degree graduate from Columbia University and another was drafted from the inner city. Wide range of economic/social backgrounds evened out by the local draft board.

The mix of widely diverse personnel also helped both understand where the other came from. Could be seen as an example of positive social engineering.

~@:o?
.

[Fumesucker]

27. And where did GW Bush end up?

Who do you think runs the draft boards?

The rich and powerful will *always* evade any draft, maybe not every single one of them, but as a class they will.

The sole exception I can think of was WWII and that was because it wasn't a war of choice.

[emanymton]

30. As President Of USA - Not Bad As An End Point ... (Snark Off) ...

.

The concept can work. If one does not want to allow for exemptions then one can make the whole idea of community service a positive. Allow for no exemption.

~@:o?
.

[Fumesucker]

56. That has exactly zero chance of making into legislation..

Congress routinely exempts itself from laws it enacts.

Money and power will *always* find a way out of such "service", we both know it.

[emanymton]

58. Yes ... And We Can Still Try To Fix It.

.

Strengthen society require people to work together for the benefit of all. Yes, some will always be able to game the system. But we do not have to give up.

This discussion was intended to be a starting point, not an end point.

~@:o?
.

[Fumesucker]

63. Strengthen society by making some temporary slaves?

We can't even end an illegal war that is costing us literally trillions of dollars.

Even after voting in Democrats to "end the war".

[Democracyinkind]

39. I think the proportion of the poor and the minorities who SAW COMBAT in Vietnam proves you wrong.

Granted, not all of them were poor or minorites. But it's not as if the war was a rich man's kids war or even a middle class war. By the time it escalated it became harder and harder on the middle class, not just the poor, and that is when the oppisition really started.

I see the ideal that you propagate and there is some logic behind it - certainly where I live now - but if that is a legit argument for any US war is something I strongly doubt. I don't have the numbers in my head but the last book I read about Vietnam - by Bernd Greiner - was pretty explicit about the class strucure of america's fighting men.

[emanymton]

45. Strengthening Society Was Original Discussion Concept

.

USA needs to make steps to try to strengthen society. Because my community is not as strong as I'd like it to be, it does not mean it cannot be changed.

One very positive outcome observed during the draft period of the Viet Nam war, was the interaction of USA's societal/economic/racial groups. For those who went through it, the stereotypes just no longer worked.

The draft does not have to be only for military service. There can be a community draft too.

~@:o?
.

[Democracyinkind]

54. You forget the blatant racism against minorities in Vietnam

The steroetypes worked pretty well, if you look at the overall experience of the GI's.
As I understand it, Vietnam was a hotbed for racial and class conflict between the our troops there. Minorites were, in most cases, much more likely to end up in the front line. That's been proven. Having read a book with letters from black/hispanic GI's in VIetnam, I would call out your melting pot theory as bogus.

I think you confuse theory with reality. I have offered enough historical anecdotes that show that the draft doesn't do what you claim it would. It's just so blatantly untrue for Vietnam, and it's hardly true (somewhat more maybe) for other conflicts.

Communitarism is anti- liberal.
As much as I'd like the idea, if seen enough of it in reality to know that it cannot fullfill the vague hope of moral progress that you claim to be an essential feature of the draft system.
The community draft - again, great idea, but there are so many examples of how that too fails to accomplish what it is meant for - and it is a financial hell hole even worse than the military, or at least that's what it turned out to be most of the time.
You'd be better off with a professiionalized, small, civilian/reconstruction/emergency-help squad - financially and operationaly.

[RandomThoughts]

11. The reason for the draft would be to not need one.

Right now most Americans live oblivious to the trauma and strife of our soldiers and the terribleness of war. It is not that they don't know, nor that they do not have experience in war, it is they do not think about it, because it does not effect them.

So a small percent of society is in the military, or are people effected by loved ones in the military.

If a war is needed, if it should be fought, then most people would support the draft to raise the soldiers to fight that war. It is only when the war seems wrong that a draft would not work.

So having a draft would have probably helped prevent the Iraq war. Since it would make people more responsible for the actions of the nation.

Also currently the military recruits as an economic opportunity, so the poor shoulder the greatest burden of many wars that are geared to help other people more then the poor.

A draft also makes sure the army reflects a broad section of society and opinions keeping its ideology or the ideas of people in the military closer to all of the society it comes from.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. "So having a draft would have probably helped prevent the Iraq war."

Like the draft prevented all those other fucked wars? What a-historical backasswards nonsense.

[emanymton]

41. When You Have A Dog In The Fight ...

.

Then you stay involved. Society engages when it has something to lose.

~@:o?
.

[Warren Stupidity]

55. Your claim is that a draft would have prevented the Iraq war

when the facts are that the draft has never prevented any war. Now of course you want to revise your argument to some other specious claim that cannot be supported by any actual historical evidence.

The protests against the Iraq War BEFORE THE WAR BEGAN were unprecedented in size and scope. There were no mass protests against the Viet Nam war before the war began, and none of similar size until that war was well under way.

[Thothmes]

108. Early in the build up in Vietnam, President Johnson

and SecDef Macnamar decided that the war was to be fought with draftees, as opposed to calling up the Nationa Guard and Army Reserves in large number.
Using the draft to prosecute the Vietnam War did not apparently have much influence in stopping at war for at least 6 years or so.

[RandomThoughts]

49. The protest and people looking into things before the war would have been different.

First off you can not compare wars. Some seem to somehow have been necessary, WW2, because of failures to stop them.

Second Vietnam came after a period of US nationalism and anti communism, so war was all John Wayne.

Third the draft did help stop Vietnam.

If their was a draft before Iraq including people of all parts of society, then their would be a serious look at the need and value, and a look at how long we were in Iraq, and any vocal protest would be different.

Plus you also get a bigger cross section of society aware of the cost of war.

It is fine to look at history, but you can't just make one situation the same as another.


It is true, I should have said it might have helped stop the Iraq war, but if their was a draft while we were in Afghanistan, people might have spoken differently by 2003.

Iraq is also different also because we were already in a war when we went in, so there may have been a different view in society if everyone was thinking about what that meant.

[Thothmes]

109. Yah, the draft help stop the Vietnam war all right,

years after the war was launched.

[anonymous171]

116. The war would probably have never ended if it were being waged with our "volunteer force."

People don't mind wars when other peoples' children are fighting them.

[hedgehog]

13. Sorry, but between the need for higher education and the high cost +

of getting established, I don't see asking young people to delay another year or two before they can start a family.

[emanymton]

15. Not An Either/Or Proposal

.

The cost of higher education can be shared by the community/society in which one lives.

As an example, the USA military pays for part or all of medical students expenses while pursuing an education. In return the person, upon graduation, agrees to serve in the military for a period of time. While serving in the military, the medical graduate develops skills and experiences that help family, community, and country.

~@:o?
.

[wuvuj]

18. It should be an honor to fight...

...for the freedom of corporations to exploit labor and resources around the globe. Plus you are a hero...when you get back...if you make it in one piece....mentally...emotionally.

And a bonus for those in power...is that once you are run thru the "mill"...they usually have another voter who feels a need to believe that what they went thru and sacrificed for was important and didn't just serve mostly corporate interests at the expense of civilian freedoms, etc.

This perpetual hero/sacrifice machine enables the US to continue it's very extensive military spending.

Except that maybe the rest of the world is getting wise to funding this? China?

[emanymton]

20. Your Snark Notwithstanding ...

.

Would not the common people's pacifist direct involvement help counter the elitist 'militarists' impulses?

~@:o?
.

[Fumesucker]

24. The War Prayer..

http://www.warprayer.org/

This is how it happened in 2003 and this is how it will happen in the future, "the common people's pacifist direct involvement" is a figment of your imagination.


"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country." -Hermann Goering

[KG]

25. not sure how compulsory military service squares w/ the ideal of a supposedly free society

just a genteel version of the way the british navy shanghaied drunks to man the ships needed to control their empire.

and as to the myth of a person bring military discipline into civilian life; in my experience in management, i was never able to hire an ex-military that was worth a fuck.

lastly, if i know anything about this country, it's that the rich kids will get the 'community service' and the poor kids would end up on the firing line.

[emanymton]

28. Learn From The Mistakes Of The Past ...

.

The military aspect is a _part_ of the discussion of a draft. The local draft board can be a powerful tool to help avoid the mistakes of the past.

The value of interaction of the various social and economic strata within USA should not be discounted. So many young graduates of high school today have no idea of how the 'other half' lives.

A draft can help us all to stay in touch with each other.

~@:o?
.

[KG]

29. bunk.

[emanymton]

31. Perhaps You Are Right ...

.

Society does not have to do anything. It will strengthen itself with people's input.

~@:o?
.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. "The local draft board " - how old are you?

I remember quite well my "local draft board" which was composed of bloodsucking vampires whose only purpose in life was to make sure that every last one of us was under their authority and compliant with their rules and regulations.

"A draft can help us all to stay in touch with each other."

That is classic. Kind of like twitter, huh?

[JTFrog]

32. Not this shit again.

Why does teh stupid have to make it's way around here every other month or so?

[emanymton]

38. Mediocrity Knows Nothing Higher Than Itself . -@:o? n/t

[JTFrog]

43. Your generous sprinkling of nastygrams throughout the thread reveal the OP for the flamebait it is.

Have fun playing with yourself.

[emanymton]

51. Thank You

.

You have something to say?

~@:o?
.

[ThomWV]

52. I disagree - the attacks on the OP's perfectly reasonable assertion deserve response

The guy (or gal) is making a perfectly valid point. Most of the responders are not, in fact personal attacks, like the one being responded to here are most common in this thread.

As for the subject matter - I simply put it down to the nature of Americans today. Self-centered pussies who have no more moral fiber than a sponge is what the it looks like to me today; a far cry from even our recent past.

[Fumesucker]

71. Theoretically it may be a valid point..

But the practice of drafting people has been shown historically to vary a great deal from the theory.

Our political class is corrupt, venal and stupid enough that I have no desire whatsoever to allow them to enslave, even temporarily, either myself or any of my fellow Americans.

[cherokeeprogressive]

82. +10 for your last two sentences.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. I suggest you convince your kids to join the military instead

of forcing mine to.

" It was the working model in USA in the 1950's."

Yeah that model worked just great. 58,000+ of our kids dead in Viet Nam. 35,000+ of our kids dead in Korea. The rich and connected never had to worry unless they volunteered to do so and our Military Industrial Complex and our Arm Chair Warriors had an endless supply of bodies for their bullshit.

[emanymton]

40. Thank You

.

Mediocrity Knows Nothing Higher Than Itself .

-@:o?
.

[spanone]

42. i'm not a promoter of 'social engineering. i lived thru the draft and it sucked.

[emanymton]

48. Thank You

[Extend a Hand]

44. not my kid! n/t

[emanymton]

46. Thank You

[ThomWV]

47. Why not your kid? Is you kid special? If so, how so?

[Extend a Hand]

102. your damn right he's special!

To me, he's the most important person in the world. I'd be damned before I'd see my sweet sensitive son be sent to see the horrors of war in order to protect the corporate interests of multi-national oil companies

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

53. Not in my book. What can be done in terms of community services... give college tuition credit or

use it to pay off tuition debt. It should be voluntary.

[emanymton]

60. It Could Be Voluntary ...

.

But then the costs would necessarily be much higher.

~@:o?
.

[geckosfeet]

59. Strenghten society - reduce military budgets. Increase education and health care budgets.

Just a start.

Also increase budgets to social services and certain regulatory agencies.

[emanymton]

61. Clear Options n/t

[Mari333]

64. I posted a bring back the draft thread a few times

and got nothing but anger back
I saw wayyyy too many people sitting on their arse about the occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan, making excuses for them.
unfortunately, with Obama in office, excuses are being made by many dems, which is distressing.
yes, if people have a dog in the game, they will think twice.
it just might put an end to 'empire' if everyone had to think about their kid getting sent to 'war'.

[JTFrog]

70. Not wanting a draft = making excuses for war?

Wtf bizzaro world are people coming from these days.

[Mari333]

74. making excuses for wars=not worried about your own kids fighting in them

see: chickenhawk

[JTFrog]

79. Slavery is inexcusable.

Forcing people to fight, kill and possibly die in a war or be imprisoned is slavery. Chickenhawks or otherwise.

[Mari333]

94. not questioning war is also inexcusable

and there are plenty who dont. sometimes they need a kick in the pants.

[JTFrog]

96. You don't need a draft to question the war.

I'm having trouble following your logic here.

How is slavery the answer?

[Mari333]

97. i have a feeling the occupations of iraq and afghanistan

would have been questioned a LOT more if there had been a draft. no, i dont like a draft, but if thats what it would take to end the USA's military bullshit, i would go along with it.

[Warren Stupidity]

76. Providing a nearly limitless supply of bodies = strong antiwar position

:shrug:

I fought in the streets to end the last draft. Luckily any such proposal remains political suicide.

[Thothmes]

110. a dog in the fight didnt seem to stop LBJ

a Draft didnt stop his war in Vietnam.

[L0oniX]

65. Good work ...comrad ...the USSR needs more people like you.

[emanymton]

67. Mediocrity Knows Nothing Higher Than Itself . -@:o? n/t

[H2O Man]

68. No.

[emanymton]

72. Thank You

[DinahMoeHum]

69. Draft the rich and well-connected first. . .or forget about it.

n/t

[emanymton]

73. Thank You

[Warren Stupidity]

77. Thank Mediocrity Knows Nothing Higher Than Itself . -@:o You? n/t

:wtf:

[anonymous171]

115. How about allowing only "work exceptions"

That way only the workers who need to support themselves or their families get to be exempt, while the rich frat boys get to go to war.

[newspeak]

85. I have mixed feelings about the draft

My daughter is in the military and so is my SIL. He is currently in Iraq and was in Afghanistan at the beginning. How many years has this bogus war been? Going on seven years? After Iraq, he may be back in Afghanistan. My daughter has all kinds of health problems now, including her heart, and she was due to get out this year, but so far, they're keeping her. Because many citizens in the US have little vested interest in the wars, except those who are in the military or their family member is in service--I see little attention paid to the war by the public or the media. It's exactly the way * and Cheney wanted it. Most have little concern what the troops have been through, just living their day to day lives, really not giving a shite!!!! These men and women have been doing more than the two tours of Vietnam--some on their sixth or seventh. Do you think they keeping sending them back until they come home broken or dead? Like some piece of used throw away garbage.

If * had stated that he was going to initiate the draft when he declared his lying military assault, there probably would have been violence in the streets. But, I assume he didn't because he knew that the public would not tolerate a draft and his little war would have been squashed. The media rarely reports what our troops are going through--well, it definitely isn't on the nightly news, like Vietnam. So most Americans sleep easily. with no care about the effects of *'s lying. After all, Kissinger explained it best, soldiers are something to be used, they're nothing but cannon fodder.

I care nothing for those who say tell you're family "thank you for their service." It is hollow because those with their little yellow ribbons on their cars and those who spout such have sacrificed nothing--most have cheered *'s war hard on, while sacrificing nothing, nothing at all. This war was nothing but a grab by the biggest, greediest war profiteers since the Robber Baron days. Privatizing the military was one of the biggest mistakes-for some of those contractors have very little respect for the soldiers--they've privatized the security or police on base-I have seen little respect for the soldiers by said contractors. Again, this is nothing but a fekkin greedy corporate grab of services that once belonged to the military, done by soldiers who cared a hell of lot about other soldiers than these contractors.

[NNN0LHI]

86. Would that be for men and women or just the men?

And what do you do with the gays who aren't welcome in our military? Draft them and then throw them out? Or if someone says they are gay do they get a deferment?

Don

[TahitiNut]

88. Everyone. Male, female, gay, straight.

But we've discussed this before. Many times.
:hi:

[NNN0LHI]

89. Yep, and I am fixin' to get into another big fight with you about it too

No I'm not. Just kidding around.

Take care and see you later.

:toast:

Don

[TahitiNut]

87. I'm fully on board with a universal service program ... and have said so.

The same ol' crap is trotted out every time. 'Slavery' ... nonsense. Service to one's own community on an equal/equitable footing with every other person in that community cannot be remotely regarded as 'slavery' ... and is an obscene trivialization of that term. "But the rich will always avoid doing their fair share... wahhh, wahhh, wahhh" ... which is, at its core, nothing more than mere envy and jealousy (happy when they get THEIRS too) ... and has NOTHING to do with an equitable program or the draft post-1970. "Vile militarism" ... which is the whine of the uninvolved and indolent who are fine with that 'militarism' as long as they don't have to get off their fat asses and actually get involved in self-governance. "Not MY child!!" ... which is the cry of the failed parent who infantilizes their kid -- apparently incapable of raising an adult. Strange how it's OK if it's SOMEONE ELSE'S kid!! Total self-indulgent crap.

But there's no telling people who're engaged in mere rationalization of adolescent narcissism. Reasoned and principle-based discussion seems fruitless.

:shrug:

[Mythsaje]

99. And this argument is as much bullshit as it was the last time around...

You can't FORCE a sense of responsibility and service on people. You can ENCOURAGE it through action and dialogue, but forcing it defeats the whole purpose. We've come a long way from the gung-ho culture of the 50s when Americans still believed in their government. Cynicism surrounding the motives of government has been borne out in more cases than we can count and yet you still believe we should allow the ruling elite the right to conscript our children into their service? If one volunteers for military service one can (or should) expect to have one's civil rights curtailed. Nowhere does it fit within the purview of a free society that people should be forced to abandon their civil rights without due process.

You were wrong last time and you're still wrong.

[BrotherBuzz]

90. This dumb ass draftee added "no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services

Thinks the idea of a reinstating the draft is a double edged sword. On one hand, my ethics and morality are dead set against it but at the same time David Hackworth's words on the draftee and their historic contribution ring true are worth reading and pondering:

Even when they pissed me off, I had to admit there was something I liked about the draftees who didn't want to be there and made no bones about it. I like draftees in general, even with the attendant problems. Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price Of admission. - David Hackworth

[TahitiNut]

91. The officers and NCOs worth their salt all agreed with Hackworth, in my experience.

As a draftee and Viet Nam vet, I ran into both kinds ... but those who aligned with Hackworth's perspective were in the majority by far.

[Cid_B]

92. Reminded me of Heinlein and Lazarus Long...

"No state has the inherent right to survive through conscript troops and in the long run, no state ever has. Roman matrons used to say to their sons: "Come back with your shield, or on it." Later on, this custom declined. So did Rome."

My personal take is that as a professional Soldier and an Officer I don't want anybody to my left or right who didn't sign up on that dotted line of their own free will. That choice to place yourself in harm's way is absolutely critical in everything we do in the military from the cooks to the secret squirrel delta etc.. etc...

[Beam Me Up]

95. I will fight it with EVERY BONE IN MY BODY!

If our "system" was NOW under truly democratic control, I might go along with you. But the fact is we can not even guarantee that our votes are being tabulated as cast; we know there is INORDINATE corporate influence in our government ESPECIALLY in relation to the military industrial complex hand in hand with the oil industry and international banking. We just spent the last eight years under a proto-fascist regime that came to power under highly questionable elections, was sustained in power by corporate owned media despite its MANY abrogations of national and international law. Moreover, nothing MUCH has changed except cosmetically since the election of Obama which was in large measure a popular REJECTION of the policies of the previous regime.

IMO, the only thing which prevented the previous regime from pursuing far broader and more extreme domestic and international programs and policy agendas was its inability to control public perception despite heavy corporate media influence and the absence of military conscription.

[wickerwoman]

98. The labor of the individual should belong to the individual.

I hold that as a core tenant of liberalism... the choice to work (or not) for the good of the community. Anything else is serfdom.

A healthy society will inspire young people to work for it voluntarily. A sickening/dying society will require compulsory labor where it cannot convince it's population through righteousness.

You won't cure anything that's wrong with America today by coercing the labor of young people.

[Mythsaje]

100. Right...

Service should be encouraged through action and example. It should never be forced.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

101. Strengthen Society, ... Bring Back The Draft.

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill." I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore
and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL."
and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumpin up
and down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on
me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."
--Arlo Guthrie, to the draft Board psychiatrist in room 604 (Alice's Restaurant)

How much 'strengthening' can a society stand?

[TexasObserver]

103. Nope. Bad idea.

The last thing this country needs is having the likes of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney deciding waht constitutes "good" service to the country. They've been in office, and the likes of them will be in office again one day.

Haven't you seen enough in your lifetime to know that your Pollyanna dream will never come true? If there is the kind of program you imagine, it won't be used for good most of the time. It'll be used to build good little Yes Men and Yes Women to further fascist goals.

Not having a draft is the only thing that stops evil men from making the PNAC dreams come true. They can and would engage in global empiralism, if they only had the troops to do so.

[Synicus Maximus]

104. Exactly who would decide what "community service" would be

done? Would it include working in "community" gardens and then giving the food to the poor? Would it be building homes for the homeless or working on road projects for state?

[OhioChick]

105. Hell No. n/t

[roamer65]

106. If a nation cannot survive without utilizing "social engineering"...

then it should not exist at all.

[babythunder]

112. I don't support a draft

however I do think young adults who've had run-ins with the law should be given the option of enlisting and having their record wiped clean or doing prison time. Now this applies only to non-violent offenders.

[Fire1]

113. No. Absolutely not. In your dreams jelly bean. n/t