OMG!!! Screw Hybrids! I have found my next car!

[Initech]

Unlike Hybrids, this one uses NO GAS WHATSOEVER. It runs on natural gas, and is fueled by a device that hooks up to YOUR HOUSEHOLD NATURAL GAS LINE.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Civic+GX

According to the Wikipedia article, NGV vehicles can run for nearly 500,000 miles and require nearly very little maintenance.

[ThomWV]

1. Natural Gas Is Running Out Faster Than Oil

Sorry .....

[Initech]

3. Really? Damn.

Just when I got my hopes up...

[ThomWV]

8. Yep

We already import a good bit of our natural gas from Canada but unfortunately their supplies are decreasing at the rate of about 8% per year. Worse than that is that new wells are finding much smaller fields that simply do not last long. Much of this is because of greatly increased demand from gas-fired electricity plants that were built to comply with EPA requirements that could not be met economically by coal fired plants. Dam shame too.

[Astrad]

51. Also Canada is going to start using more and more of its

dwindling natural gas to produce oil from the tar sands. Natural gas is used to heat the sands and extract the oil. The tar sands are set to become the biggest CO2 source on the planet.

[Uben]

57. A big part of the shortage

.. is not due to supply, it's the lack of pipeline to deliver it. We have burned off NG here in Texas for decades in areas where there is no pipeline. Unlike crude, that can be delivered by truck, NG requires a pipeline. I always thought it a shame all that energy was being flared off.

[Up2Late]

67. Exactly, and importing it (by using Liquid Natural Gas) is much more dangerous too.

It sucks, the same year that I FINALLY got a "Gas Log" for my home fire-place, the price of NG skyrockets to the point that I can't afford to use it anymore.:grr:

[LSK]

2. the answer is electric cars

[Initech]

6. I don't think we will be seeing those in my lifetime.

Not as long as Exxon Mobil is still around.

[LSK]

20. GM EV1

The technology is out there.

[Initech]

25. "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

I still haven't had time to watch this documentary yet, but it's really high on my list of movies to see.

[LSK]

31. it really is good

[piedmont]

61. Convert your own. Conversions cost $8,000-15,000 and a little time.

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/

[Iwasthere]

10. Waiting for my plug in Prius

Have a Toyota Echo now. When I get my Prius I will plug in at home (charging from my own solar completely off the grid). I go less than 40 miles in a day so i will NEVER have to fill up (unless I go on a long trip). FINI ... FUCK OIL!

[Initech]

17. I'm sure Exxon will find a way to make money off electric cars...

Yeah, it sucks, I have a feeling we will never get rid of them.

[baldguy]

33. As soon as Big Oil can, electrics will become available.

And not any sooner.

[orwell]

59. How do you like...

...the Echo?

[ThomWV]

14. That presumes that electricity comes freely from nowhere

and that transmission of it poses no problems either.

[LSK]

21. the current infrastructure can support overnight plugins

[krispos42]

23. Economies of scale means that powerplants make the power better

and more efficiently than thousands of IC engines. Usually less pollution as well.

Electic cars can be charged overnight, when grid usage is down. That means fewer new powerplants will need to be built; we'll just run the existing ones at full power 24/5.

It also enables us to capture solar, wind, and ocean-wave power for our transportation system directly.

Not a panacea, but not bad.

[Jonathan50]

64. By the time you count in all the losses from the generator to the propulsion motors.

In the electric car.

The internal combustion engine comes out ahead in efficiency.

The power plant that makes the electricity is still a Carnot cycle engine and will be subject to the inherent limitations of the Carnot cycle.

[LSK]

26. see this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=590068&mesg_id=590706

[IDemo]

38. See this document

Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks
Electric vehicles are cleaner and more fuel efficient than internal combustion power, even in areas using coal power.

[piedmont]

60. Solar, wind, micro-hydro, stirling generators running on biomass, etc. etc.

You can generate electricity at home. And even if you can't, it still has far more potential to be produced and transported cleanly and efficiently than gasoline.

[originalpckelly]

58. Yep, fuel-independence will allow more exploitation of varied fuels...

without all the hassle. The real investment at this point would be investing in electric cars, a beefed up electrical grid to handle the new demand, and electric car ferrying trains to replace the highways, that electric cars will not be able to use well because they require recharging after a relatively short distance.

[rurallib]

4. Isn't NG in short supply also?

What about pollution?

[hobbit709]

5. Still burns fossil fuel

Making CO2.

[paparush]

7. Dude - You want the Tesla Roadster

All electric.
0-60 in 4 seconds

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=0

(before you ask.... its 90GRAND)

[Initech]

9. Too rich for my blood!

[Iwasthere]

13. Tesla is coming down in price. WHAT A CAR!!!!!!!

Been watching it. But I have a family of four :o(

[greenman3610]

27. tesla's next is an suv

then, a family sedan.

[Initech]

34. If I won the lotto, I'd get a Tesla.

[LSK]

41. 90GRAND is cheaper than a ferrari

[Callalily]

11. Actually veggie oil

cars are an option, and right now. Just drive up to your local MacDonald's and fill up with their grease. Well, it's not quite that easy, but the veggie oil powered cars do seem like a win/win situation.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/21/news/economy/vegetable_cars/index.htm

[Rosemary2205]

29. Only for the time being.

Once the demand for used plant based oils gets high enough the cost will go way up and it won't be cost viable anymore. Plus, if the demand gets high enough we will be in direct competition with food production.

IMHO vegetable oil powered vehicles are fine - not condemning it at all - but it will always be a "nitch" market -- as it should be.

The only real long term solution is to completely overhaul our society so that jobs are closer to home and people are transported in groups instead of one per vehicle.

[krispos42]

12. Honda makes generators that run off your gas line as well

The problem is storage. You need a high-pressure tank to hold the natural gas, which could mean bad things in an accident. And you aren't being taxed on it, so our roads and such are being denied funding.

You also have to find out the cost of the natural gas per mile as opposed to gasoline. You might not be saving any money after all.

[krispos42]

15. It also costs $25k, thousands more than a standard Civic n/t

[Initech]

19. Not really.

A standard Civic, fully equipped, runs $22,800 (which is why I want a Civic, it's the cheapest I can afford). The Civic Hybrid is $24K, and this one is about $25K.

[krispos42]

30. When did Civics get so expensive????

I thought they started in the mid-to-upper teens?

Also, I think that if Honda keeps the LNG Civic in short supply, the dealers will be able to ask for a lot above MSRP for the cars. Just like the Priuses.

[Initech]

37. The one I'm looking at is the top of the line model.

The Civic EX with navigation system. I think the base price is between 17 - 18.

And even the TOL Civic is thousands less than comparable cars I've been looking at, like the Dodge Charger and the Pontiac G6.

[SoCalDem]

40. When Accords "went through the roof", they started making civics a bit bigger

so a lot of Accord would-be buyers started looking at civics instead, so THEY escalated too.

When we went looking for a replacement for our aging Accord EX, there was no way we would pay what they wanted, so we switched to a luxury car for less money, since we did not want a civic :)

remember when pickup trucks were a cheap alternative to a car? I do!

[NickB79]

62. Civics got bumped up, and the new Fit took their place

As Honda's entry-level compact car.

[mahina]

16. If you have a hydrogen car you can use it to make electricity for your house.

Just some minor adapter needed. It's Amory Lovein's Hypercar. http://hypercar.com/
And before anyone says it can't, wont, etc. Amory Loveins gave the technology away to all the major car companies so they would compete, understanding if he sold it (and he could have gotten a ton of money for the technology that made the hydrogen car safe) they would suppress it. He is the reason BMW, Toyota, GM, etc have hydrogen car prototypes.
But the difference is, you can build the hypercar in a garage. You don't need a mammoth factory.
Cool.

People are converting Priuses to solar powered electric but I haven't really looked into it. I like my Prius just like it is, and I don't have the skills for conversion. If someone else could do it, if there was a shop around that specialized in that, I'd be there in a second.

[chaska]

44. This article totally kills the hydrogen option. See below.

http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=105&Itemid=1

[mahina]

50. Agreed obviously on the black hydrogen,

but it doesn't matter if it's an energy sink when using solar energy. It's not like we're running out of sunlight, especially here.
We have a couple of projects here on this subject now.
Thanks though.

[Iwasthere]

52. Cal Cars I forgot the website

will covert it for you

[monktonman]

18. The answer is ....

No car at all.
How about that?
Maybe we should be looking for ways to do away with them all together.
My god, what did we ever do before cars...and cell phones.

[Initech]

22. Nope.

I live in Los Angeles, it's practically required that you have a car if you want to get anywhere (don't get me started on how much our MTA system sucks, I will bore you to death). I wish I lived in a city with a good infrastructure, but I dont.

[monktonman]

32. Ever thought about moving closer to work??

[Initech]

36. I have a 20 minute commute, but they send me all over the state.

So yeah, I'm pretty much screwed.

[ieoeja]

24. "What did we ever do before cars..."

We married our 1st cousins because there weren't any other unmarried people within half a day's travel.

[Leopolds Ghost]

68. Really. Is THAT what Chicagoans did in the 1940s and 1950s?

[Odin2005]

39. No cars isn't really practical in the US, we are too large and spread out.

Electric cars are really no worse then electrically powered mass transit and high-speed trains. Most of the dislike of cars seems to be the rantings of Doomers like Kunstler and from certain moralists.

[monktonman]

53. I suppose Too large and spread out...

doesnt have anything to do with cars???????????????
Perhaps what we really need is a different way of thinking.

[Leopolds Ghost]

70. When most Americans visit cities, they say "not spread out enough"

"Someone should pass a law preventing people from living this close together, where I come from is bad enough!" Then I inform them there IS a law to that effect, zoning and subdivision (parking) ordinance, set up to make all places in America uniformly low-density to cater to the prejudices of a small-town Midwestern minority who grew up in dying gridirons on the prairie with no streetlife whatsoever, and expect everywhere to be like that. Then they spend massive amounts of money to VISIT cities because they are interesting, and make it unaffordable for the rest of us to actually LIVE there, because their own neighborhoods are not interesting or worth visiting and spending money on, once built.

[Leopolds Ghost]

69. Why do DUers drive so much compared to their parents?

America is no more "spread out" than any other patch of Earth. Do YOU choose to live on a 5-acre lot far from the nearest store? And if you do, do you SUPPORT auto-only zoning? What is "moralist" about daying suburbs are externally dead environments that are never interesting enough for tourists to visit? And even if you do live in such an environment, what's STOPPING YOU from walking 1/2 mile thru a low-density suburb to the nearest store? Age, and a considered loss of mobility, which one will never regain by not walking? Deadliness of the automobile sewers near your house, which you should feel responsible for rectifying, because other people in your neighborhood DO walk? (Or do you blame the victim in pedestrian fatalities for being foolish enough to walk through a suburb? I guess some neighborhoods should just remain unsafe because that is the way of things?)

Or could it be, as I feel, that some areas APPEAR unsafe in their sheer ugliness and inward-looking ambience, the exterior of the buildings being mere auto sewers, totally functional and nondescript, unwelcoming to pedestrians, the message clearly being that if you're on foot, your neighbors will think you are a criminal, a nutcase, or a mugging victim, and a bad parent if you let your kids walk to school?

Like I said, it STARTS with reducing VMT. So-caslled enviros on DU and in city councils want to INCREASE auto use by moving from fossil fuels to some sort of source of limitless free energy. In other words, they want to consume 2-4 times energy on a daily basis that their parents consumed in the horrible old 1960's. Why?

[Jack Sprat]

46. Would do you bet?

If suddenly all the fossil fuel vanished from the earth this very day, six months from now the need for transportation would have alternate energy sources powering plants, cars, and everything else you could think of.

[monktonman]

54. or I would continue to walk to work........

[NickB79]

63. I would bet against that vision

We need to use fossil fuels to build any alternative energy infrastructures we could come up with. Those solar panels and wind turbines won't be built if the coal-fired electrical plant down the road suddenly has no coal.

That seems to be the greatest problem with switching to alternative energy systems IMO. We won't switch until they become cost-effective with current, fossil-fuel systems. However, by that point the amount of fossil fuels left with which to build the alternative energy infrastructure will be rapidly decreasing in supply and rapidly increasing in cost. When inflation due to skyrocketing energy costs causes the construction costs of a new wind turbine plant to double in a matter of months, for example, will that plant still be built or will the investors pull out due to lack of funds?

[IDemo]

28. Obvio 828e from Brazil

http://www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=386

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

42. $49K??!!

For 3 seats?

C'mon...

[Initech]

45. What the hell is that thing?

[IDemo]

35. Another factor that is widely ignored about EV's

V2G, here -> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=90568&mesg_id=90713

[earthside]

43. Natural Gas?

Check this out: Methane Madness.

[Jacobin]

47. For about $1,800 you can convert your car to run on LNG

Which is liquified natural gas, under high pressure. A good many people do that in Brazil, as they have recently discovered natural gas and don't have the infrastructure to pipe it to houses

[Jonathan50]

66. Almost all cars today in the US are fuel injected and computer controlled.

There is no way in hell you are going to convert a computer controlled fuel injection vehicle to run on LNG for $1,800.

[Jacobin]

72. I was thinking about propane conversions which my friend does

It appears that it is more to convert an to LNG
http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=topstory3

NATURAL GAS VEHICLES
There are two basic types of natural gas vehicles: dedicated NGVs operate only on natural gas, while bi-fuel NGVs can operate on either natural gas and traditional gasoline or diesel fuel. In some cases this is driver selectable with the flip of a switch, while others offer either manual switching or automatic switchover to conventional fuel operation when the on-board natural gas fuel supply is exhausted.

In general, dedicated NGVs demonstrate better performance and have lower emissions than bi-fuel vehicles because their engines can be optimized to run on natural gas alone. In addition, dedicated vehicles do not carry two types of fuel, which means they don't sacrifice cargo capacity or carry around additional weight. The plus for bi-fuel vehicles, of course, is that they reduce the possibility of being stranded if natural gas fueling isn't readily available since they can also run on conventional fuel.

Today, consumers in this country have few light-duty NGVs to choose from at the showroom. That short list includes the Honda Civic GX sedan and the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra pickups. Ford no longer offers the natural gas models it once did and General Motors has trimmed its NGV line to these two full-size pickup models, reportedly due to overall poor natural gas vehicle sales. While this might be partly due to marketing that was aimed primarily at fleet sales, there are other factors that limited private buyer sales. Other choices are available from small volume manufacturers like BAF Technologies with its 2006 Ford natural gas powered Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, and Town Car, and Baytech with its dedicated natural gas GM vans, pickups, and SUVs.

As with virtually all alternatives to conventional gasoline and diesel vehicles - with the notable exception of hybrids - the inability to refuel anywhere, anytime is a major drawback to NGVs. There are over 1,300 CNG and LNG refueling stations in the U.S., but a large number of these are for fleet operators. Even if all of them were available to consumers, challenges would remain since this number pales in comparison to the 175,000 gasoline stations scattered conveniently in every town and city across the nation. Natural gas is great for centrally-fueled fleets like buses, delivery trucks, refuse trucks, and taxis since there is no need for a widespread refueling infrastructure. In fact, about 20 percent of all new transit buses in the U.S. are now powered by this gaseous alternative fuel. Natural gas has also provided a principal strategy for fleets in urban non-compliance areas that must meet emissions requirements.

Range between fill-ups is limited because of the amount of CNG or LNG that can be carried on-board. For example, the natural gas Honda Civic GX has a range of 200-250 miles on the 7.2 gasoline equivalent gallons of CNG it carries. A conventional Honda Civic can travel up to 400 miles on its 13.2 gallons of fuel and the hybrid version can go over 600 miles on the same quantity of fuel. The shortfall is notable, but not unreasonable considering the many advantages brought to bear by the popular GX.

The refueling challenge can be partially alleviated by the use of home refueling appliances like Phill, manufactured by Honda's strategic partner FuelMaker. While providing the convenience of on-site home or small business refueling and eliminating the need to regularly visit fueling stations, Phill does require electric vehicle-like times to refuel the Honda Civic GX - about four hours for 100 miles worth of fill-up and up to 12 hours for a full tank of CNG. That said, this isn't an issue for those who start the fueling process when their CNG vehicle is parked for the night, since every morning brings a full fuel tank and a fresh 200-250 miles worth of driving range.

Today, NGVs cost more than their conventional counterparts. In the case of the Honda Civic GX, that's about an additional $4,500 in the cost equation, but that's not the true bottom line since this cost can be reduced by substantial federal and state incentives, plus tax deductions. Then there are the intangible benefits like the ability to drive vehicles like the Civic GX solo in high occupancy vehicle lanes in some states. While choices are very limited when it comes to new NGVs, virtually any gasoline or diesel engine can be converted to natural gas by a number of aftermarket companies. Conversions can cost from $2,000 to $4,000, but that cost can be eventually recouped by the lower cost of natural gas.

And how much would that cost be? Of course, this depends on many factors including location and who's marketing the product. CNG is almost always substantially less than gasoline or diesel at the pump. Vehicles filled at home with a Phill appliance, using natural gas priced at favorable home rates, can operate at the now-unbelievable cost of about $1.25 to $1.50 per gallon, on a gallon-of-gasoline-equivalency (GGE) basis. On the commercial front, fleet operators not only achieve emissions reductions by operating their light-, medium-, and heavy-duty vehicles on natural gas, but also realize significant operational savings due to lower fuel prices. Those prices are sometimes as low as $1.50 to $2.00 GGE if a fleet works with a fuel supplier like Clean Energy on a contract basis.

Several other technologies exist that could make NGVs more attractive to certain buyers, such as flexible-fuel vehicles that could operate on multiple fuels. For instance, Brazilians already can select vehicles that run on any combination of alcohol, gasoline, and CNG. Such capability could demand a premium price that would be paid by those who want the ability to buy the lowest priced fuel available and as a hedge against a shortage of any single fuel type. Another technology is hybrid electric vehicles where the internal combustion engine operates on natural gas. Besides being a very environmentally friendly vehicle using domestically produced natural gas, or even renewable biogas, a CNG-electric hybrid could provide the performance and range of a conventional gasoline or diesel vehicle.

[sinkingfeeling]

48. Have you priced natural gas lately? Increased about 135% over the last 3 winters here.

[susanna]

49. Those have been around for years.

Ford had bunches of them in their fleet at one time:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/news/idx/7/083/2000/article/04192000__Ford_adds_to_industry_leading_natural_gas_vehicle_lineup.html

[goforit]

55. 1960s Plymouth Champ got 50 to 60 mpg. HAS GM SCREWED US OR WHAT???

:argh:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

56. Sounds nice - but my '94 Toyota PU will probably outlive me.

Paid $13,000 new for it. Have put about $500 in repairs other than general maintenance. Damn thing is unbreakable and I love it.

[Snotcicles]

65. I'm working on a car that runs on human methane.

We are having difficulties designing the drivers seat.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. With All Due Respect, I'm Not Sure Which Is Worse:

Bush uttering this: "Gas is--can only be transported by ship, though, when you liquefy it, when you put it in solid form."

or you uttering this: "this one uses NO GAS WHATSOEVER. It runs on natural gas"