Southern Baptists at convention urge women to be submissive to their husbands.

[madfloridian]

There is a convention this week in Louisville. They are continuing their philosophy of requiring the submissiveness of women, that they are not to be ministers, that they should work in the home.

Women urged to focus on caretaker role

While the largest crowds gathered for a lineup of speakers at the Pastors' Conference on Sunday and Monday, an annual pre-convention lineup of preaching and music, many wives of pastors and other women took the opportunity to meet for their own morning-long series of speakers, worship sessions and small-group discussions.

One of the keynote speakers was Mary Kassian, a professor of women's studies at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, who spoke on various ideals for women she gleaned from Titus 2, one of the seminal texts used by advocates of a view that men and women are created equal while serving different roles, with men in authority in homes and churches.

The Southern Baptist Convention amended its articles of faith in 1998 to urge that "a wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband." And that position found nothing but agreement here at the conference, in contrast to the teachings of many other churches and secular groups that male authority is demeaning and potentially abusive of women.

Kassian said she had to unlearn ideals of feminism she said were embedded in her education when growing up in Canada and still permeate the entertainment industry through depictions of "butt-kicking females who knew how to demand their rights, take control and put men in their place."

Gee, guess all of us "butt-kicking females" need to learn our proper place.

Many of these women follow the Titus 2 philosophy put forth by Paul in the bible.

Teach Sound Doctrine

2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound <1> doctrine. 2 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. 9 Slaves <2> are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
Titus 2:1-10

I just realized they are speaking in the same 10 verses of women and then of slaves. Maybe the slave mentions are glossed over and ignored by those who interpret the bible literally?

A Baptist seminary professor preached last year that women who don't submit to husbands are to blame for domestic violence.

That is just shocking. He is a professor at the seminary which trains young men to be pastors.

One reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband's God-given authority, a Southern Baptist scholar said in a Texas church recently.

Bruce Ware, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, said women desire to have their own way instead of submitting to their husbands because of sin.

"And husbands on their parts, because they're sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged--or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches," Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.

Ware said God created men and women equally in God's image but for different roles.

The responses to that article are indeed fascinating.

I keep posting about the Titus 2 movement in the church because I find it absolutely frightening that it is going on in our enlightened age.

The Purpose-Driven Wife: Teaching women to submit to their husbands, for the love of Christ.

These are the priorities of the Titus 2 women:

Those priorities may include rising early to feed the family, being available anytime to satisfy a husband's desires (barring a few "ungodly" or "homosexual" acts), seeking his approval regarding work, appearance, and leisure, and accepting that he has the "burden" of final say in arguments. After a wife has respectfully appealed her spouse's decision—a privilege she should not abuse—she must accept his final answer as "God's will for her at that time," Peace advises. The godly wife must also suppress selfish desires (for romance, a career, an equitable marriage), practice addressing her spouse in soothing tones, and maintain a private log of bitter thoughts to guide her repentance. "If you disobey your husband," Peace admonishes in The Excellent Wife, "you are indirectly shaking your fist at God."

I tend to agree with a former presidential candidate who said that suddenly we found ourselves in an America that is "anti-woman, anti-gay, and anti-civil liberties, all in the name of God."

"An America ruled by people pushing intolerant, discriminatory policies in the "name of God"

.."The biggest coup of all, bring a team of radical right wing idealogues to the White House under the cover of Compassionate Conservatism.

Democrats and moderate Republicans have woken up and found themselves in an America ruled by people pushing forward intolerant, discriminatory policies....anti-woman, anti-gay, and anti-civil liberties, all in the name of God. The truth is we allowed this to happen by mostly remaining silent about the things that give meaning to people's lives."

I don't miss my former church, will probably have to find another one sometime. But I do intend to keep writing about the policies they are pushing which hold certain groups in subservience to others.

[lisa58]

1. 'cause that works

[roguevalley]

67. fuck this shit. truly.

[trueblue2007]

78. I urge women to tell their husbands who try and make them submissive to SLAP THE CRAP OUTTA THEM!!!!

DO IT LADIES!!!!

Just slap him one time for the gipper!!!! LOL !!!

[JerseygirlCT]

2. Southern Baptist Convention? Bite me. nt

[BlooInBloo]

3. Won't be sad to see them go.

[PM Martin]

4. When will they order Sarah Palin's husband to take command

of their relationship? Or does this submissive thing only apply to the masses?

[SammyWinstonJack]

58. +1

:thumbsup:

[Vickers]

5. Paul is the most fucked-up dude in the Bible,

Well, the New Testament at least.

[DKRC]

28. Paul was a Roman dog

The SBC doesn't follow Jesus' teachings after they get the children indoctrinated, they follow Paul's. Which supports their own worst desires for dominance over everyone not born white, male, & straight.

[struggle4progress]

47. St. Paul, Friend or Enemy of Women? (Rosemary Radford Ruether)

It's too simplistic to call the apostle a patriarchal misogynist on the one hand--or to praise him unreservedly on the other.

BY: Rosemary Radford Ruether

... Christianity was born and developed in the context of patriarchal social structures in both the Jewish and Hellenistic worlds. But there were radical ideas floating around in early Christianity that suggested that gender hierarchy had been dissolved through baptism into Christ for a new humanity beyond gender. This is expressed in the baptismal formula used by St. Paul in Galatians 3:27-8: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

This baptismal formula was not invented by Paul, but belonged to the Hellenistic Jewish-Christian church that he joined upon his conversion. This church included women and men, slaves or former slaves, and freed men and women from Greek and Jewish backgrounds. This baptismal creed assured them that all the hierarchies between these different social statuses had been dissolved in Christ, that they all shared a new oneness in Christ. The gender part of this formula was probably linked from its beginning with celibacy. Women became equal with men by dissolving their traditional relations with men as wives. Thereby they were also freed to teach and preach in local assemblies and as traveling evangelists.

Paul accepted this activity of women when he joined the church that used this baptismal creed. He continued to assume that women could speak in Christian worship assemblies, lead local churches, and travel as evangelists, as is evident from his references in his epistles to women engaging in these roles. But he also was troubled by what he saw as a radical interpretation of this "newness in Christ," which suggested that all social hierarchies had been dissolved, that Christians should all adopt a celibate lifestyle and could see themselves as transcending sin. In his first epistle to the Corinthians, he sought to curb this more radical interpretation ...

Although he accepted the practice that women could speak in church worship assemblies, Paul demanded that they should do so with veiled heads to indicate their continued secondary status in the order of creation (I Cor. 11:5). But the passage in I Corinthians 14: 33b-35--where it is said that women should not speak at all--is generally conceded by scholars today to have been an interpolation from the next generation after Paul. It was not part of the original text.

... In the generation following Paul, Christian churches that looked to Paul as their founding evangelist became split on these teachings about women's role. Some groups in these second-generation Pauline churches continued and expanded the view that gender hierarchy was overcome through baptism ...These Pauline Christians wrote texts, such as the "Acts of Paul and Thecla," which celebrates the story of a woman converted by Paul who rejects her fiancé, adopts men's clothing, and travels as an evangelist ...

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/03/St-Paul-Friend-Or-Enemy-Of-Women.aspx

[konnichi wa]

53. Ah, Saul...the Terrorist of Tarsus. This guy who fundies love

never met Jesus and derived his message from the hallucinations he got from eating funny mushrooms on the way to Damascus and falling off his donkey.
:eyes:

[redqueen]

70. Yet fundies pay more attention to his words than Jesus's.

They are a scary, scary group.

[madfloridian]

75. Very good point.

[Deep13]

90. Yet his writings are the foundational documents of Chrisitanity.

The canonical gospels came later. Christianity can exist without Jesus, but not without Paul.

Yeah, it's fucked up. The whole premise of the NT is fucked up. We are not sinners. We do not need salvation. And there's none to be had anyway.

[Gwendolyn]

6. I expect the same people who are over on the burqa thread, claiming enslavement is free choice...

will be on here expressing shock and disgust.

[MADem]

7. I have a theory that the more subjugation of women you see going on,

the smaller the cocktail weenie on the subjugator's party tray. As it were.

[Ikonoklast]

96. The only reason I posted here

was to put this in the proper place in order to answer the actual prayers of the faithful below.

[Mari333]

8. submit to the powerful intellects of these guys

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZCTmNDPnufw/RphTeWLRxLI/AAAAAAAAAKc/apq1ccUv4vI/s400/promisekeepers1+031.JPG
ya right...

[trueblue2007]

79. OR LIKE THESE YAHOOS.......

[givemebackmycountry]

81. Oh, Dear God of Sausage and Burritos....

Thy will be deep fried and eaten.

[Warpy]

9. Yes, the old doctrine of the "natural slave"

that said some group of human beings was naturally predisposed to being enslaved to the rest. It started to justify slavery in Democratic Greece and was used to justify the enslavement of kidnapped Africans.

That the SBC is now applying it to women is no surprise. Bad ideas are as hard to kill as good ones are.

Trying to keep adult human beings in perpetual submission is wrong. I'm astonished they don't see that, that it's not the way to treat others as we would like to be treated, ourselves.

And they wonder why so many young people are loath to self identify as Christians these days.

[Skittles]

10. these are the gals who end up in shelters

fuck that

[Ohio Joe]

11. Douchebags - nt

[Ikonoklast]

12. I want my religion to give me cover when I beat my wife and kids.

Gawd wanted me to chastise them, I don't care about no 'man-made' laws.

[Deep13]

91. pretty much nt

[BlueJazz]

13. I going to have to find me one of those Submissive Women. It would be fun to...

..."rule the Castle"...have her tend to my every need plus the bonus of Feeling like a Real Man.

Ahhh..that's what I need....

[madfloridian]

16. LOL

Good luck on that. :rofl:

[RC]

14. Screw that shit. I want a woman as an equal, a partner.

Best friend. If I want a servant, I'll go heir one.

[davidwparker]

27. You're in good company. That's what Adam wanted too -- long before

Southern Baptists.

[Mist]

15. The fact that they're still harping on this indicates lots of fundie women just aren't

"submissive" enough.

[RoadRage]

17. Was Sarah Palin there as a Keynote Speaker?

'Cause i'm sure 99.9% of these women think she's just 1 step under GOD. And of course the Irony is that their own rediculous Religion is quite clear that a "woman should only hold a job outside the home if it doesn't interfere with their home duties". I'd say 5 kids - one of which has a kid of her own might be considered a "conflict", but i'm sure there is a quick & easy way to justify it.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

My daughter won't step foot in a church like this until she's over 18 and I can't stop her.

[Sal316]

18. The SBC is pimping a horrific theology.

Fundies of any stripe really hack me off.

What most of the jackholes don't get is that, at the time, most women, particularly in Greece, Crete, etc., were an integral part of the "pagan" religion. They weren't schooled in Jewish tradition, etc. Paul, in each city, looked for Jewish men to lead the church after he helped set it up and left.

This is NOT to say that Paul was as anti-woman as most make him out to be. In fact, there are a plethora of women that Paul praises in his letters, Priscilla, Phoebe, Nympha, Euodia and Syntyche to name a few.

The word from Titus 2:3 is καλοδιδασκαλους, or kalodidaskalos "teacher of the right". Note that this does NOT limit teaching to younger women.

Don't even get me started on the "wives be submissive to your husbands" nonsense. Those that quote that to justify keeping women submissive hope you don't ever read the whole passage, else you find out that husbands are to be submissive to their wives as well. It's a recipe for a healthy marriage based on putting the other person first.

The Greek in scripture most often translates to Paul saying he is against women teaching at this time. Why does he tell them to keep silent? Women of Artemis were known to prophesy rather loudly, and he did not want them to do so, so they could learn what Paul was teaching and become 'kalodidaskalos' themselves.

[texastoast]

22. Interesting

Funny how you don't hear much about the balance.

[madfloridian]

24. SBCers take it to the extreme quite often.

An old high school friend loved to babysit for her daughter, but then the daughter had to go to work. Her hubby had problems...some kind of disability. My friend told me she would not babysit because God wanted women in the home. I emailed her back and asked how they would get along with no one working...her answer was "God will provide."

I stopped communicating with her then. It was not worth the stress.

[PSzymeczek]

101. Nympha?

:rofl:

[muntrv]

19. So when will the talibornagain tell Michele Malkin, Laura Ingraham to submit

to their hubbies?

[and-justice-for-all]

20. Deplorable and dark age thinking...

fuck them.

[politicat]

21. They're trotting this line out AGAIN? Cuz it worked so well last time...

Hm... when did they trot this out before... would it be... during the Clinton Administration, Alex? Why yes, it was!

Hm... what does that say?

And I want to know about their definition of submission. Is it proper BDSM submission, where the sub is the center of attention, or the other sort?

And what degree of graceful submission do they expect? Can I grumble under my breath at my theoretical lord'n'master's dumber pronoucements or do I need to go into full Stepford mode? They never clarify, but they want to set down rules.

I'm so glad I'm not SBC... or Protestant... or Christian.... /snark off

[OhioChick]

23. Fuck that submissive bullshit. n/t

[8 track mind]

35. aw maaaan

You beat me to it. Fuck. That. Shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Don't care what day of the week they pray

or what the name of the designated god is...

Religious right wing hattery is religious right wing hattery.

And I despise religious fanatics.

[undeterred]

26. That stuff was less offensive

before it became attached to right wing politics. If people choose to have this very old fashioned view of marriage and family and church, that's their business. It seems like any young woman who gets a college education is going to start to wonder why she can be in leadership anywhere else in society, but she will always be second class at church and in the home. Millions of young women see through this crap and leave the conservative churches.

But mobilizing these people to make their views the law of the land is really poisonous. Religion isn't good for politics, and politics isn't good for religion.

[madfloridian]

29. It was meant to be used that way....as wedge stuff to help the right wing win.

And they did.

[undeterred]

44. They won short term

but in the long term millions of Americans became disgusted with having this particular version of religion shoved at them, and many of the dummy right wing Christians finally figured out that they were just being manipulated. Damage to both.

[madfloridian]

73. I agree. I don't think those wedge issues are working as well now.

[jgraz]

30. Welcome to the tradition definition of marriage

This is a glimpse of what the right really wants.

[sakabatou]

31. How much more regressive can they get?

[jemelanson]

37. Do you really want to know how regressive they can be?

One only has to look at "The Dark side of Christian History" by Helen Ellerby. This type repression if left unchecked would make the Muslim Fanatics look like a Sunday Tea. The Muslim Fanatics are no worse in the treatment of their Women that the Christian church has been in its treatment of Women.

There are plenty of books available which document the treatment of Women in our history. For example, 500 or so years ago. A woman could not own property, she could not claim her own children, she could not inherit property, if she could find a job she could not even claim her wages. The wages would be paid to her father, her husband or some other male relative, whomever had control of her. A woman could not sue anyone in court because she had no standing. I guess it was about that time that the Church decided to get involved in the Marriage business, and in England and Europe a bride was required to lay her head on the floor at the alter and put her husband's foot on her head as a sign of her submission. Ministers up Thur the mid 1900's preached from the pulpit that men should beat their wives, their children, evey babes to put the fear of God in them. There was a time in history that the fathers of the Christin Church debated as to whether women even had souls, and if they did could they be saved. Others debated as to whether women were even human.

[hyphenate]

32. It's just a whole dispicable world

that is predicated on this philosophy. I agree--a large part of this would never gotten very far if some of the people who could do anything about it had opened their mouths and spoke up sooner. But I can't forget that the 70s, 80s and 2000's were controlled by repugnants who not only kissed the asses of the religious right, but went straight into sex with them. Only now do people see what is happening, and oops! it's too late.

I tell ya, if this country ever becomes the sadistic and malicious theocracy that so many of these monsters covet, I hope I can find a way to get out of it.

[The River]

33. These People Are The Republican Base

If they don't get one of "them" on the 2012 GOP ticket
they could go 3rd Party or sit it out. A win-win
for Dems.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

34. Wow, pretty fucking IRONIC--

"Mary Kassian, a professor of women's studies at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.........Kassian said she had to unlearn ideals of feminism....."


Wow.

[Deep13]

92. So it IS possible to go from intellectual to moron.

Who knew?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

94. rly! n/t

[Celtic Merlin]

36. Rejection of organized religion is WONDERFUL!

You can still believe. You can still do everything you feel that you should. You need not support an organization that teaches things with which you don't agree.

I was raised in the finest traditions of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I left it. I've never been happier. I tried a couple of other religious organizations over the years, but they were intolerant of various groups of people. One had no problem with homosexuality, but condemned abortion in all its forms. Another was intolerant of gays, and I can't hang with that. My best man at my wedding is gay and has been my close friend for over 30 years.

Why subscribe to a belief system which isn't 100% YOURS?

Blow them off, give your weekly offerings to a worthy charity, and live your life without the extra crapola. Especially the crapola in the Old Testament - that book is criminal.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[Mad_Dem_X]

88. I wish I could recommend your post.

:applause:

[femrap]

38. Why don't these dudes

just say it's mandatory to suck their cocks on a daily basis? I am so tired of their dogma...while they rah rah about war, death, and destruction.

They wouldn't know Jesus if he washed their damn feet.

These men are despicable excuses for flesh.

Come 2012, they can kiss it all buh bye.

Mother Nature will have the last word.

[kitkat65]

39. My urge to southern baptists . . .

Fuuuuuuuck yooooooou!

Not the most civilized reply but, truly, the most sincere.

[StarryNite]

40. What's next?

Are they going to try to take away our right to vote? You know they would if they could.

[DesertRat]

41. In a way, some of them do

I used to work with several Southern Baptist women who told me that as head of the household, the husband decides who he AND the wife will vote for. And if they have an unmarried daughter of voting age, she follows the father as well. Obviously she can vote for whomever she wants, but the ones that I knew were not at rebellious and embraced the notion of their husbands making all of the "family decisions".

[StarryNite]

45. Screw that!

I would vote for anybody but who he told me to vote for just to spite him.

[Vektor]

42. I really just can't help but laugh.

Those poor, pathetic, insecure men who feel so threatened by women. Their self-loathing is so severe that the only chance they have to feel good about themselves for a fleeting second is when they are attempting to subjugate someone else. It must be miserable to be them. Sad.

[Initech]

43. I urge all southern baptists to finally join the fuckin' 21st century!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. But we know who the men will end up dating!!

If the women come to their senses:

1)Rubber dolls;

2) Mail order brides from other countries, who aren't uppity.

3)Rosy palm and her five sisters.

[Heidi]

48. Proposed atheism recruiting campaign: "Welcome, disenfranchised SBC women!" (nt)

[AwakeAtLast]

49. I'll be submissive when this happens:

"Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness."

I'm not seeing much of that in their world.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. They Are Getting That From The Apostle Paul

When Paul was speaking women were not generally educated and hence the proscription made some sense. It doesn't make sense now. Paul also said he wished "everybody had the gift of singleness" but if they were "on fire" they should get msrried. I doubt many SBC churches teach "singleness is a gift".

But I'm not giving up my faith because of a vocal few...

My pastor is a woman. She has a United Church Of Christ congregation. She is the nicest, most empathetic, compassionate person I have ever met. And, of course she knows her scripture...

[Bluenorthwest]

51. When folks cite St Paul to back up their anti-gay bigotry

I always want to point out these Titus verses and others, and ask them to either live by those rules, or cease demanding that others do. Obama rides a high religious horse fed by St Paul to explain why he is opposed to civil rights for all, yet let's be honest, Michelle does not follow Paul's guidelines for women, and we know that they are not raising their girls to grow up and take on a Pauline role of submission. We know that. So if those rules do not apply to themselves, citing them to control and oppress others is nothing but hypocrisy and lies. How easy to shout 'I'm a Christian, which means YOU must do as I say." Seems difficult to shout "I'm a Christian, which means I have to live as Paul says."
Those who demand I east kosher best do so themselves. Those who shout about St Paul while dealing with most of his teachings as historical relics that simply have no place in today's sleeveless world have got to be called out for that utter dishonesty.
Their faith is mere affectation if they themselves do not follow it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. The UCC Which Obama Ostensibly Belongs Favors Full Civil Rights For Gays Including Marriage

I go the minister for counseling. She's a wonderful, kind person...

For me being a Christian means loving one's neighbor as myself and treating everybody with respect...

[Bluenorthwest]

59. I was not addressing you

And it might shock you to learn that I have been involved with a few UCC churches, and from what I gather my involvement predates the President's. Also congregations of Methodists, Baptists, Armenian Orthodox, Foursquare Gospel, Jesus' Name, Holiness, Catholic, Episcopal, Coptic, and so on. That is a sample of Christian congregations I have worked with or visited. That does not include the temples and mosques and such.
I know the difference. Nothing in my post could be read as being about any group of people but hypocritical cheery pickers who edit out the verses about themselves and yet expect others to live by the verses they are sure are about us. I did not say in any way that the whole of the faith community is like that.

I can not even count the members of my family who attend churches more conservative than UCC. They are not strangers to me, they are my family. None of them is bigoted against gays and they all welcome the gay branches of our rather huge family circle. So I don't expect religious people to be bigots.

Still, those who want to spew St Paul at others should be expected to live by his rules for them. In fact, it is the faith community that should be calling them out on this.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. I Know. I Was Amplifying On What You Said.

I don't think Obama in his heart opposes gay marriage. I think he has adopted the position he believes is the most politically tenable or advantageous. It's sad.

[Dogtown]

66. I agree with your last sentence

wholeheartedly.

[konnichi wa]

52. Titus 2.....should be Tightass Too

:eyes:

[Starry Messenger]

55. How come these Bible "literalists" always pick out the submissive bits for women?

Why not the Book of Judith? Talk about a "butt-kicking female"!

[cap]

56. I wish NOW would start picketing the SBC and highlight this misogyny

Why should we tolerate these nutjobs? Why in this day and age should we have this behavior tolerated in our society? Why do we have a solid 20% stating that they would not vote for a woman for president under any circumstance?

A man who has this setup at home is not a man who will treat women equally in the workplace. He will always be dragged kicking and screaming to the bargaining table.

[CanonRay]

57. What do you expect from the American Taliban?

[we can do it]

60. 2 Words for Funduhmentalist Freaks -

FUCK YOU

[DarbyUSMC]

61. Are any of the posters in this thread Southern Baptists? I'd guess not.

So, none of the many things mentioned apply to you, therefore "What is that to thee?"

According to the doctrine, in an ideal marriage, there is a captain of the ship. He (Paul) isn't speaking of abusive husbands or other situations that are intolerable. He is speaking of loving people "in Christ". I don't particularly like Paul either but not for the same reasons. I point out fictional marriages but marriages that were based on fact. These were not necc. Southern Baptists although one of the examples might have been. Even so ----- I am using the example of John and Olivia Walton (based on Earl Hamner's parents) and Charles and Caroline Ingalls (based on Laura Ingalls Wilder's parents). Were they perfect? Of course not. For the ship (marriage) to run smoothly there has to be a captain. It makes the mate not less but as important in so many different ways. The man answers to Christ, the head of the church (church meaning not a building, but the body of believers in Christ). The wife looks to the husband. Not a drunken, abusive husband who wouldn't be looking to Christ --- but a loving, respectful man who puts his family above himself. John Walton didn't attend church but he followed the ideals of what is discussed here.

So, why is this part not bolded? 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.

The opponent would be the non-believer. It is taught "Avoid all appearance of evil." If the Southern Baptists or any other denomination, try (and I emphasize "try") to live by the words in the book they believe to be God inspired, so what? That's their choice. Whenever one of them "falls" and many do fall, they really fall because they have proclaimed Christ as their savior , putting themselves out there to be Christ like. And actually, I believe the world out there rejoices when a proclaimed Christian behaves like a "normal" person. But "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" is the verse they must remember. The "all" in that is All. Just because these folks choose to follow the path they are most comfortable on, doesn't mean any of us have to abide by their beliefs or decisions. Every year, when the Southern Baptist Convention meets, this comes up.

Not that it matters, but I'm an Agnostic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3iy7NcZCEo

[madfloridian]

64. I was raised SBC. There is no excuse for subjugating women.

None at all.

A woman is an equal in every way. We really do disagree. Far too many take it to extremes, but even in the best light it is treating women as inferiors.

[PSzymeczek]

102. My mother was a Southern Baptist

and my father was an excommunicated Mennonite. My great-grandparents were Amish. This explains, in part, why I am an atheist.

[Ilsa]

62. Training them like dogs. Training them on what

They should desire, how to react, when to speak, run and fetch, etc.. Way too
controlling. That's why I gave up the Baptist Church.

[madfloridian]

65. The SBC just ejected a 2000 member church because they accepted gay members.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/06/southern-baptists-eject-fort-worth-church-over-gay-issues.html

"The Southern Baptist Convention has broken its 127-year-old ties with a Fort Worth Baptist church because the SBC views its stand on homosexuality as too lenient, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and The Baptist Press report.

The action against the 2,000-member Broadway Baptist Church came with no discussion at the annual SBC meeting in Louisville.

Stephen Wilson, a member of the executive committee, told The Baptist Press that although Broadway Baptist does not officially endorse homosexuality "they were allowing members and also people in leadership that were homosexual."

"The church was in effect saying that it was OK to have members who are open homosexuals," Wilson said."

[madfloridian]

68. B21 versus Acts 29...two Baptist factions feuding apparently.

Seminary president calls SBC executive’s comments ‘shameful’

Some of my "favorite" Baptist leaders spouting off.

LOUISVILLE, Ky.—The president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary called comments in a speech by the Southern Baptist Executive Committee President Morris Chapman “disingenuous” and “shameful.”

Seminary President Danny Akin was addressing a panel discussion hosted by B21 at an Acts 29 church start.

“I wish to apologize to my Calvinist brothers and sisters who are here for the horrible misrepresentation of your position this morning,” said Akin, one of six participants in a panel to discuss with young pastors issues surrounding continuing involvement with the Southern Baptist Convention. B21 is a loose network of persons “seeking to be Baptist in the 21st century.” Acts 29 is a network of churches whose foundational documents are clearly Calvinistic. Many member churches are dually aligned with Southern Baptists, as well as supporting Acts 29.

Mohler chimes in:

The difference between the Calvinist view of salvation and the traditional Baptist view is a matter of emphasis, he said. Both agree God’s sovereignty and man’s response are essential elements of salvation, but each party emphasizes one of those elements.

The B21 meeting was held in Louisville, home of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, whose president Al Mohler is a Calvinist and has returned Southern to what he believes are its founders Calvinistic roots. After Akin’s opening apology, frank discussion was more about reasons young pastors should stay within the Southern Baptist framework, and financially support a system they do not fully agree with. Panelists included Akin, Mohler, LifeWay Research President Ed Stetzer, Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C., host pastor Daniel Montgomery and David Platt, pastor of The Church at Brook Hills in Birmingham, Ala.

Mohler is against choosing to be childless, using birth control, abortion, and gays.

[western mass]

69. Maybe they should urge their GOP governors...

to be faithful to their wives.

[skeewee08]

71. I've been telling my husband for years I need to stay home:-) lol....

[madfloridian]

72. Love it.

:hi:

I never had the luxury myself, but it sure would have been nice.

[FloriTexan]

99. Yes, you should have had that luxury...

I'm sorry you didn't. I can look back now and say thanks though for what you did. :loveya: :pals:

[KakistocracyHater]

74. so they say the husband is the god of his household yet that breaks

1 of the 10 commandments. So which is it then? Have you seen the "divorce decrees issued to Baal"? http://www.warriorsden.org/articles/baal.html

Then there is this:

....."When fundamentalists took over the reigns of the Southern Baptist denominational structure, the role of women took a drastic policy shift. The national organization that was headed by Southern Baptist women is now under the thumb of the convention. It was reeled in and placed under the control of the offices of the male dominated SBC. There was even a resolution passed at a national meeting suggesting women were the reason for original sin. Women were now to remain silent and obedient to their husband's leadership. There had been women deacons in Baptist churches as long as we have records of Baptist life. Now this policy is dismissed as heresy. Women could not now serve as preachers or pastors even though this practice of women as preachers had existed on the mission fields for decades.".....
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/12/8/111230/657

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/3/8/185122/3387
..."In 1964 Addie Davis became the first Southern Baptist woman ordained to the ministry. By the 1970's hundreds of women were enrolled in ministerial degree programs at SBC seminaries. By the early 1990's more than 1000 women had been ordained, more than 50 served as pastors in SBC churches, and others served as professors at Southern Baptist universities and seminaries.

This expanding role of women was strongly opposed by a coalition of Baptists led by Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson. They diligently worked to erase the gains made by women and place them under the authority of men. The clearest examples of the SBC's subjugation of women are seen in their treatment of the WMU, ordained women and wives."....

Then this: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/10/20/195730/89/Front_Page/Killing_Mother_Theresa_with_their_Prayers
More Baal madness
..."To accomplish the next phase of the Lord's assignment to free our state and region from the reproach of alignment with Stonehenge and the Baal structures, a war council of apostolic and prophetic leaders was convened. These leaders all carry unique and specific anointings of authority to deal with land issues, particularly in this territory. The War Council included: Ap.(Apostle) Jay & Joan Swallow, Ap. John Benefiel, Ap. Negiel Bigpond, Ap. Diane Buker (FL), Ap. Billy Joe & Ruthie Young (MS), Ap. Jacquie Tyre, Ap. Venessa Battle, Ap. Bradley White, Ap. Mark Hawkins, and apostolic intercessor, Deborah Landwerlen."...

What gets me is that EL was the Sumerian Bull of Heaven, yet Christians deny reality, & Adonai is the plural for Venus' lover Adonis. They are apparently intent on living like it's 1A.D.

[RainDog]

76. fuck the southern baptists

they encourage abuse of females with their bullshit religious views. I know, I was one and I was abused.

fuck them for the harm they do to females.

[mzteris]

77. ".being abusive, which OF COURSE one of the ways . . ."

"And husbands on their parts, because they're sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged--or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches,"

it sounds like Ware prefers the former (abuse) rather than the latter (passiveness).

Therein, my friend, lies one of the real consquences of this type of male supremacist posturing.

[madfloridian]

80. More stuff from Ware: Salvation and a woman's "obedient womb"

He is the one who said that male abuse is often a response to female disobedience posted in the OP.

Here are his words about salvation through an obedient womb.

Ware also touched on a verse from First Timothy saying that women "shall be saved in childbearing," by noting that the word translated as "saved" always refers to eternal salvation.

"It means that a woman will demonstrate that she is in fact a Christian, that she has submitted to God's ways by affirming and embracing her God-designed identity as--for the most part, generally this is true--as wife and mother, rather than chafing against it, rather than bucking against it, rather than wanting to be a man, wanting to be in a man's position, wanting to teach and exercise authority over men," Ware said. "Rather than wanting that, she accepts and embraces who she is as woman, because she knows God and she knows his ways are right and good, so she is marked as a Christian by her submission to God and in that her acceptance of God's design for her as a woman."

http://complegalitarian.blogspot.com/2008/06/complementarian-bruce-ware-women.html

[cherish44]

84. So I guess if you're a woman and you can't have children you're pretty much not going to be saved

Wow their God sounds like a real asshole.

[defendandprotect]

82. Who ever said religion is good for mental health --- ???

Or that organized patriarchal religion is good for women?

Get out when you can, ladies!!!

And don't look back -- !!!

[PSzymeczek]

104. This from the Freedom from Religion Foundation

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/women.php

[Joe Bacon]

83. What a bunch of b-holes!

I call them b-holes because these idiots don't have what it takes to be an a-hole!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

100. That's EXCELLENT, JOE!!!!

:rofl:

They give honest, hardworking assholes a bad name.

They should be downgraded to skidmarks and asswipes.

(I changed my handle. I was Perragrande and before that, Opera Nut. I'm your bartcop bud in TX)

[Ilsa]

85. I don't mean to be promoting my own thread, but is a glimpse

into their world at their seminary:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5918098

this is what their training environment is like, exemplified by their newsletter.

[madfloridian]

97. Thanks...I missed your post.

Thanks for sharing. Just left a post in it.

[Mad_Dem_X]

86. I hate that "husband has the final say" bullsh*t

My husband and I are equals in our marriage. When a decision needs to be made, we sit down and discuss it, and if we don't agree, we try to reach a compromise. Sometimes, I realize that he is right; sometimes, he realizes I am right.

I loathe the idea that, no matter what the wife says, the husband has the final say. That is complete and utter bullshit. He's your HUSBAND, not your superior or boss, like at work! :grr:

[Deep13]

95. Iron age tribal thinking.

That point of view has no place in a modern society. It is undemocratic, anti-freedom and unamerican. The reason why the man traditionally had the final say was because he had the the upper body strength to enforce his will. Without law or the other trappings of modern society, there was no way to limit that fact. Holding that primative and brutal point of view as an ideal is a rejection of modernity and all the good things Western society stands for.

I did not marry some kind of submissive puppy. I married a strong, independent-minded woman. What the tell would have been the point of getting married if she was not able to be my equal. I wanted a partnership, not the sole burden of responsibility. I hate that mousy, submissive crap. Maybe it's because it doesn't seem normal to me. My mother's family is pretty matriarchical, so I really did not know any weak women growing up.

[Bettie]

87. Its not the the Baptists

When I got married (20 years ago now) my MIL, a devout Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, gave me a booklet with instructions on how to be a good Lutheran wife.

I made the mistake of thinking it was a joke.

It took several years for her to get over being angry about that.

She now knows I'm a good mom and that my marriage to her son makes him (and me) happy, but she is unhappy that I have no desire to join a church or participate in organized religion beyond attending church with her and FIL when we're visiting (out of courtesy).

Patriarchy is built into mainstream "Christianity" and most churches, there is no escaping it.

That said, the SBC takes it to a new and scary level!

[Deep13]

93. +1

[Deep13]

89. Um...I want an adult wife I can count on, not some kind of pet.

Remember that feminist expression, "A man of quality has nothing to fear from a woman who seeks equality?" This kind of attitude does a disservice to both spouses.

[FloriTexan]

98. Wow...

From one "butt kicking woman" to another....I would like to rephrase "Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine; to: Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves too much whine"

Either way, I would have to have too much wine to deal with be submissive.

[proteus_lives]

103. What a bunch of horse-shit.

What kind of man wants a submissive woman? I have always been attracted to smart and strong women. Partners and mates are supposed to challenge and complement each other. A man doesn't stand behind a woman and a woman doesn't stand behind a man. They are supposed to stand side by side.

Men (or women) who want weak, submissive partners are just projecting their own weakness.

[TygrBright]

105. So... are all SBC males underendowed and insecure? Sad, sad, sad... n/t