"...they didn’t want to arouse the ire of Bush and Cheney"

[Senator]

From the http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-15/panetta-torn-between-past-and-present/full/">Scott Horton interview of Jane Mayer:

It’s an irony that while Panetta is known for his political experience—on this issue President Obama decided against him—because he and his own political team thought a commission would just embroil Obama further in Bush’s mistakes. In particular, they didn’t want to arouse the ire of Bush and Cheney, Panetta told me. So they squelched the idea of looking back. Any serious look back at how American came to embrace torture would inevitably lead to Cheney. It would also likely end up having to reexamine the false confessions from coerced detainees that helped get us into the war in Iraq. They just see too much partisan political peril in it.

No chess game. No plan that's "only 5 months" complete. No "national security" rationalization. Just stark terror at imagined "partisan political peril."

Just refusal to abide by and enforce the laws and treaty obligations our greater generations fought and died to forge. And people wonder why the average voter sees the war criminals as strong leaders and the DC-Dems as impotent ditherers.

It's our ongoing political peril. And worse, our growing National Shame.

--

[AllentownJake]

1. In one year

They will regret this decision.

[roguevalley]

16. I regret it now. :( they are institutionalizing shame

[JDPriestly]

25. Problem is that the jihadists have been known to torture as in the case of Richard Pearl

God forbid that an American soldier should be tortured, but the first time that it happens and photos of the torture are released, our government will feel the pain of not being able to condemn torture. The whole world would ignore our protestations.

I do not want our American soldiers to be tortured, and that is why I do not want the American government to torture prisoners of any kind anywhere in the world.

In spite of our financially precarious situation, we Americans are still the leaders of the free world (as they used to say). We have a responsibility to point the entire world in the right direction. Bush and Cheney pointed the world in the direction of sadism, cruelty and crime. We need to do more to point the world in the right direction again.

Obama's speech in Cairo, his care in handling the situation in Iran and his warnings to North Korea lead the world in the right direction -- toward living together with respect and in peace. Trials for war crimes including torture are essential to establishing that torture is wrong no matter how powerful the torturer is. No one should humiliate or torture another human being. It's simply wrong. It is the way toward war and violence, not the way toward peace.

Investigate and, if appropriate based on the investigation, prosecute the torturers.

[chill_wind]

43. Excellent points. Your whole post should be an OP all it's own.

Especially the first two sentences-- arguments that need to be made again and again. A horrible prospect.

[kestrel91316]

2. It's a good thing our current lily-livered clowns weren't in charge when

fucking NIXON needed removing.

He'd still be King Richard I.

[tularetom]

3. Well I guess it's up to us to force them to do the right thing

They should wnat to do it just because it IS the right thing. But it looks like they don't so we'll have to put pressure on them.

But it doesn't help when some jerk like Bill Mahr says he wishes Obama was more like bush. And don't tell me he just meant he should ACT like bush in pushing his legislative agenda. He should not be anything at all like bush. In fact he should place bush under arrest and have him tried for war crimes.

[tan guera]

4. Obama

should be more like Truman, not bush.

[ControlledDemolition]

8. 'Truman'... dropped German U-235 on Japan... von Braun heads up NASA... what else? n/t

[Senator]

15. Truman chose Justice Jackson to enforce Geneva at Nuremberg.

He took war crimes -- and our national honor -- seriously.

Obama could do the same with Justice Souter.

If he ever decided to stop driving the Torture Getaway Car.

---

[roguevalley]

17. truman integrated the military. that took steel balls, something in

SHORT supply these days.

[Jim Sagle]

19. It was an American bomb. Who ya crappin'?

[Senator]

5. I think Maher's commentary was very helpful -- to the "force them" effort.

Regardless of what he "really meant," the broad point is the right one.

The beltway strategerists are being too clever by half -- failing (as always among Dems) to factor in the power of leadership. More "audacity" in enforcing the torture laws and coming to terms with bushcheneyism would build political capital domestically and diplomatic influence internationally.

This really will be Obama's ONLY legacy. Whether or not he insists on continuing his impotent failure to assert and defend our American values.

---

[Echo In Light]

24. "Force?" Non-existent in America

[Juche]

6. Let an international court take care of him

We could use the shame. A first world country that is too cowardly to hold its leaders accountable for crimes against humanity needs shame. I would love it if one of the countries that we normally consider ourselves superior to ends up being the one that brings down Cheney.

[glitch]

11. Bush/Cheney. nt

[jgraz]

35. The international court may wish a few words with Obama if he continues down this path

[Juche]

39. I know, and its great

People who cover this up need to fear for their freedom too. I remember reading articles a few months ago saying how Obama is violating various domestic and international laws by trying to cover this stuff up.

[Senator]

42. Dunno about "great," but...

...here's a link to http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE53H1Y020090418">the UN expert's accusation from April.

Of course any domestic law violation -- such as conspiracy to aide and abet torture after the fact -- would require a prosecutor willing to file charges. Still, not inconceivable.

But any or all of the torture victims may yet be allowed a day in court. And they'd have every right to make the case against Obama himself.

---

[bleever]

7. I have to disagree, to the extent that

Obama has ceded the likely existence of war crimes, with Cheney as the source of the Nile, while saying that the president has more important things to do than duel with our Aaron Burr.

Cheney's deeds are becoming all too apparent, and even the president would not have the ability to stem the tide of judgment that is clearly bearing down on him.

[Senator]

9. Not exactly sure with what you are disagreeing.

Even if "Obama has ceded the likely existence of war crimes" (whatever that means), characterizing torture accountability as "{a} duel with our Aaron Burr" -- and (not) acting based on such a view -- is exactly what a president with integrity should easily rise above.

And setting aside the fact that the deeds have been fully apparent for years -- http://talkingimpeachment.com/blog/Hall-of-Shame-Inductee----Barak-Obama.html">even to Obama himself -- everything Obama is (not) doing seems designed to "stem the tide of judgment {from} bearing down."

And thus far it is clearly succeeding, as http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/21/cheney.poll/">cheney's numbers are going up and along with them support for his warped, neofascist vision of American securitocracy.

But the point of the post was Obama projecting an image of impotence and the pervasive damage that causes. I think your suggestions, including that he thinks torture is just too trivial to waste his time on (if true), just makes him look worse.

---

[bleever]

32. I wasn't very clear,

and my point may be polyannaish, but what I meant to say was the a) Obama acknowledged that torture occurred, and b) knows that there are other agents of enforcement, i.e. Congress and the courts. I wasn't implying that I thought Obama thought that torture was too trivial; just that making his presidency be defined as Obama vs. Cheney would not be a good idea.

My hope is that he has calculated that enforcement of the law would most powerfully be done by others, because to entangle his administration head-on with the previous one would put him in a political arm-lock that would paralyze his presidency.

That being said, I fully agree that unless the crimes of the Bush administration are prosecuted, we will be doomed to see them repeated.

[Senator]

33. Well, there is pollyannaism, overly-audacious hope, ...

...and then outright denial of reality. You'll have to grade yourself on that scale.

As for Obama, he is currently being defined by his failure stand up to cheneyism. He is projecting an image of paralyzed impotence. The Accountability Commission he's opposing would go far to eliminate the problem he imagines he is avoiding.

And FWIW, he doesn't have the option of http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE53H1Y020090418">simply acknowledging that torture occurred.

But the problem he's creating is beyond us being "doomed to see them repeated." Non-prosecution is de facto legalization. Torture remains the approved policy of our once-great nation, regardless of any pretty lip service being paid to our now-abandoned values.

---

[bleever]

34. What is your opinion of the political peril

of Obama taking Cheney on, and the notion that it would paralyze his presidency?

[Senator]

37. It's as real as Saddam's WMD.

And having the identical effect on those who either promote it or buy into it -- it rationalizes inaction and neutralizes opposition to immunity for torturers.

Besides being patently hyperbolic, "the notion" is irrational in that the converse is undeniable: cheney IS taking on Obama. Obama's only options are leadership or impotence.

And it goes far beyond any euphemedia pissing contest. It is neo-fascist cheneyISM to which Obama is ceding the field -- to their ongoing effort to convert America into a securitocracy, controlled by their http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Senator/8">definition of "the right people."

We're well on our way to 4 years of dithering "centrism," followed by 8 years of even-worse-than bushcheneyism. Perilous enough for you?

--

[bleever]

38. Good answer.

I wasn't baiting you, and I respect your opinion and how well you express it.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

10. Very well stated, sir.

You, and the head of the nail, are intimately acquainted.

[Solly Mack]

12. "false confessions from coerced detainees that helped get us into the war in Iraq."

Crimes against peace and all that...government doesn't want to admit to it happening...oh, they dance around it but then reduce it to "policy differences"

break the law then lie about breaking the lie and then pretend it was all just something else entirely...something not criminal

[Karenina]

20. I keep thinking... Can everybody let the man get settled in already?

I am unhappy about the imbalance of whose view reach his ears. However, I am happy about people getting VERY LOUD about progressive causes. Mark Oktober 11th on your calendar. I'd LOVE IT if Amis were smart enough to STFU about Iran. Obama led the way. Unfortunately, they're not, so c'est cera, cera.

The guy has thrown down the gauntlet. Freedom isn't free. You must PAY attention. ;-)

[Solly Mack]

28. I got to admit to comments about Iran not much bothering me.

Which isn't to say people haven't said some truly stupid things....just that I'm not too worried about those comments affecting policy. Also, some people have made informative comments. Seems everyone has an opinion - on both sides of the pond.

I support war crime charges and will continue to agitate for them.

[Karenina]

49. Would that Prescott Bush been properly held accountable...

Past as prologue? :shrug:

[Solly Mack]

50. Sadly :(

[Winterblues]

13. They are losing me..

I think it really doesn't matter anymore, they al;l pay homage to the same authority.. Why should I ever bother voting again? They just make me feel and look like a sucker.

[roguevalley]

18. agreed. even if obama cured cancer, this taint will be on his hands

forever if he lets it go. forever.

[Senator]

27. They are losing many ... and not from "the base."

The latest NBC poll shows a http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/18/poll.obama/index.html">14 percent drop among independents. Down from majority approval, to only minority approval.

Extrapolated to a general election, that's the victory margin gone.

--

[pat_k]

14. k&r

[Echo In Light]

21. Institutional collusion, not cowardice. Team players protect the team, they don't oppose it

[Senator]

22. Still, when we're talking a Torture Team...

...that's really a distinction without a difference.

--

[Echo In Light]

23. The Dem party is basically a sham "oppositional" party that bolsters the Right indirectly

[Senator]

29. I don't think that's quite as true as it certainly seems.

While that's clearly fair to say about the DC-Dem "leadership," our party rank and file are not without influence and some victories against the Beltway Brahman.

In fact, the "both sides are the same" escapist message is just as harmful as the actual elitism/corporatism.

--

[Hubert Flottz]

26. And NOW, it almost looks like Bush, Cheney and Rove are

going on TV and DARING Obama to do anything at all to them for the criminal crap they did. Like they are slapping the president in the face and saying, you don't have the guts to tangle with us, so we really are above the law.

[donco6]

30. We will face it one day. Sadly, not when we should be.

This is disgraceful, but becoming more of a pattern.

[libodem]

31. This crap is half the reason

I'm such a vicious cynic and use sarcasm as a communication tool. Good for them I guess they want to own it! And the American people can be blamed for it, too. This is too fucked up for words. If the shoe were on the other foot, believe me, it wouldn't stop until every last liberal was hunted down, indited, convicted and imprisoned. I'm so disgusted. It makes me wish we had some of those gun toting militias, that were liberal, and took the law into their own hands. Vigilante justice is what you get when you can't depend on the legal system. I wish some vets, would go after them and take them out, before they kill themselves. The frustration of all of this makes me feel like I'm going explode into a million pieces.

[Generator]

36. America is a dead experiment

Over. Game time up. Leave the building.

And oh irony-it took a black Democratic president to make me know the gig is up.

Course I watched it happen here on DU over the last few years-one unbelievable despicable outrage after another. And I saw that yes-congress and all our dear leaders would put my child away forever with no trial-and shh we can't talk about if he's tortured- if the president said so. That was it for me. They have no soul. They don't defend the Constitution-they defend themselves.

And someone said I was angry and bitter. What a shock heh? Well pray to GOD that the next president after Obama is compassionate and wise and the next after that and the next after that. Because the Constitution and basic rights are meaningless in this country. Obama cares more about presidential powers more than your kid being tortured to death by some future leader. That's the fucking legacy he and his cohorts on the hill and in the media are leaving us.

It's not what they believe or what they want-but what they don't seem to get as much here on DU don't with the angry and bitter comment-is somehow we don't think it can happen here.

I know it can. And for all those we have tortured and killed that weren't even Americans-as if only our lives had any meaning and not whom we claim is the enemy-hell they are expendable after we are scared-so screw them, yeah I'm angry and bitter. It's not okay that people were tortured to death for ME. Not for Cheney-it was for me-it was for America-the thing that I am part of.

[Senator]

40. I wish I could quarrel with your diagnosis.

But there just aren't any facts to back me up.

I would only offer the truth that a nation is not a human being. It can be reborn or restored.

This need not take generations, but it becomes more likely that it will each day "our leaders" fail to muster the political will to begin.

--

[Hotler]

41. So the Obama admin. is scared of Cheney.

Nothing left to do now Mr. President but roll over like a puppy.

[L. Coyote]

44. Isn't it CRIMINAL to not enforce the laws? IMPEACHABLE even. There is the trap!!!

Carefully lain to ensnare Obama.

Obama.Holder either have to do the right thing, or they are the criminals. That simple folks!!!!

[Senator]

48. Certainly Impeachable.

It's a direct violation of the oath of office.

Criminal would be another matter. Though one could make a case for accessory after the fact and/or obstruction. They are, after all, driving the Torture Getaway Car.

--

[chill_wind]

45. " Panetta Favored Truth Commission-Til It Was Clear OBAMA OPPOSED ANY Bush Investigations"

(DU Jane Mayer article thread from a few days ago):


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5856271

External links:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-15/panetta-torn-between-past-and-present/full

The 8-page New Yorker piece on Panetta and the Obama Admin:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/22/090622fa_fact_mayer

But by late April Obama had vetoed the idea, fearing that it would look vindictive and, possibly, inflame his predecessor.

“It was the President who basically said, ‘If I do this, it will look like I’m trying to go after Cheney and Bush,’ ” Panetta said. “He just didn’t think it made sense. And then everybody kind of backed away from it."

[NBachers]

46. Cringing shameful weaklings

invite further abuse

[Canuckistanian]

47. Funny , the GOP didn't worry about "partisan political peril" during Whitewater

And they went on to WIN the next election.