I do not get some people on DU

[thewiseguy]

First they come over and argue that Mousavi is very much a part of the Iranian regime, even though he has been away from the politics for the past 20 years.

Then they come around and argue that AhmadiNejad perhaps won fair and square.

I would like to clarify a few things. Presidential candidates in Iran are handpicked by the Guardian Council. So there never is your ideal candidate. The difference between AhmadiNejad and Mousavi is absolutely huge.

While one advocates for the fall of United States and denies holocaust, the other warns against useless rhetoric and attacks AhmadiNejad on state TV over his holocaust denial.

Listen I and Iranian people know that Mousavi is not a saint. But our fight has bigger goals and yes for now he could perhaps guide us there.

And about AhmadiNejad winning it fair and square. I went ahead and voted myself. My polling station closed perhaps 30 minutes after they were going to announce the final results.

The state TV declared AhmadiNejad the winner with 10% of the votes counted! We have no exit polling in Iran. They still made huge errors while faking the results. For instance one of the candidates vote tally decreased over the course of 3 hours. There are screenshots of that.

And even more strangely all candidates lost to AhmadiNejad in their hometowns by huge margins. I could go on and on and on...

I understand that this is an Iranian affair and to be decided by Iranian people. Who I may add are getting beaten up as we speak. But the least you guys could do is to show sympathy and solidarity. Which many of you have and I am very thankful for. :)

The Iranian government has censored all pro Mousavi sites. Shut down mobile lines. Restricted internet access. It is unprecedented for Iranians to protest in such large numbers. They do not do this to put on a show for the world, they do it because they are seeking change.

You could choose to sit this one out but as the famous Iranian poet puts it, and Obama reaffirmed it in his Norooz message:

Humans are the member of one body, which are from the same jewel of creation. While one member gets hurt, the rest can not stand it.

[elocs]

1. You will save your brain a lot of pain if you refrain from trying to "get" people at DU.

Any people.

[votingupstart]

35. true-er words have not been spoken

i quit trying "to get" some posters and i am a better person for it.

[Richd506]

44. K & R! Good thread!

[grantcart]

57. let me try that and get back to you

OK my brain sends you a big thank you

[WillyT]

61. ROFLMAO !!!

Word!!!

:rofl:

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[subcomhd]

72. as new poster (but reader of many years) let me say

I strongly disagree with many posts on DU. However, despite the fact I'm a new poster, I've been a fan of this site for years. During some of the darkest, most depressing days of the past Cheney/Bush years, DU was one of the few things that kept me from crawling under the covers - never to emerge. I don't agree with a lot of people here - PC anti-Letterman hystericals, gun control advocates and those who diss President Obama for not delivering immediately all our dreamsther he ever supported the specific issue at hand or not.

But as a lifelong progressive Dmocrat, white man, not only married to, but head over heals in love with a my Mexican Popoloc wife, father of a handsom Scotch/Irish/Popoloc son, I like this site - a lot

[yellerpup]

2. Thank you very much for keeping us informed

Your post is valuable information and as many Americans as possible should know these things that you bring to light from your personal experience. K&R! Keep in touch!

[supernova]

3. Don't let DU get you down

:hug:


Most of us sympathize with the protesters.

[Turborama]

4. K&R

Thanks for your insight

[Uzybone]

5. Some DUers want to be the smartest guys in the room at all times and on all topics

they think the bourgeois/sheeple are too stupid to know anything.

[lxlxlxl]

7. 2nded...

i personally don't care for the ahmenijad's of this world, and i think a prosperous iran is necessary for any sort of economic development for that entire region.

[NYC_SKP]

6. "While one member gets hurt, the rest can not stand it."

.

"Humans are the member of one body, which are from the same jewel of creation. While one member gets hurt, the rest can not stand it."



That alone is worth a recommendation. :P

.

[xchrom]

8. recommend

[n2doc]

9. Who is to say that some posters aren't Ahmadinejad supporters

Or Iranian Cleric employees? We always assume people are posting their opinions truthfully, maybe so, but there is nothing to prevent anyone with more of an axe to grind from posting here.

It's a big melting pot. Some ingredients react vigorously.... As others have said, don't let it bother you, in the grand scheme of things we matter less than 1 street protester in Tehran. The Iranian people (including the police and armed forces) will determine the outcome of this. I hope for the better.

[Douglas Carpenter]

66. I doubt very much there is ANYONE on the parole of Iranian clerics.

I think there are some people who hold the worldview that the world is neatly divided between those who support American Imperium and hegemony and those who oppose American Imperium and hegemony. This sort of ideologue tends to have a, "you are either with us or you are with the Imperialist" attitude. It is a highly naive, simplistic and dangerous worldview, to say the least.

Also, there are some people who are quite legitimately deeply suspicious of any take on anything coming out of the American media. Sometimes, such people can be a bit reflexive and fail to judge situations individually.

I say all of this as someone who is deeply involved with the Middle East and highly critical of American policy in the region. Still, it is quite clear that the vast majority of even the fiercest critics of American policy in the region know that something about this election smells awfully fishy and they also know that Ahmadinejad is no friend of the forces of justice, peace and progress in the Middle East and the world.

[opihimoimoi]

10. The Iranians yearn for the Yoke of Theocracy to be lifted...they want and demand true Democracy

Many have already paid the ultimate price

But the Despotic regime continues along the road of deception and brutality...the greed of power and control is evident in their actions....in the end...they will lose...despots always do....history hates despots...

[Hissyspit]

11. Am I wrong in my impression that much of the discontent and dissidence

Is not so much about Mousavi but the whole system of government in Iran?

[Kaleko]

12. Simple expressions of solidarity with the Iranian people

give our resident critics the opportunity to trot out their superior insights into what's really going down - unbeknownst to all the gullible fools who swallow news reports at face value. It's a game of one-upmanship, mostly. Since they don't have more actual inside information than the rest of us do at this point, they throw out any old caveats they can find from the past, then see what sticks in somebody's craw.

Waste of time to even respond.

[Odin2005]

29. They are ideologues, often Marxists, that can't see when a "cigar is just a cigar".

They see "evidence" of corporatist manipulation where none exists. That doesn't mean there is no corporatist manipulation, of course, but it's very easy to fit events into pre-conceived ideas and thus see things that aren't there.

[Prometheus Bound]

51. They are ideologues, often "far-right republicans", that can't see when a "cigar is just a cigar".

They see "evidence" of government manipulation where none exists. That doesn't mean there is no government manipulation, of course, but it's very easy to fit events into pre-conceived ideas and thus see things that aren't there.

[kenfrequed]

94. Uhm...

When I can find a receipt of who bought the damned cigar it really doesn't matter what kind of pseudo-freudian analysis of my political beliefs might be. Matter of fact a proper materialist in terms of economics is a pretty rational creature. Freuds analysis of was intended for irrational and emotional responses to intangible or symbolic things.


Your attempt to sneak a broadside agaisnt the progressive economic left (labeling us as 'marxists' or whatever) on an unrelated thread makes you look less like a democrat, absurdly conservative, and completely unhinged. I believe there is a dead congressman buried in Wisconsin that would like to shake your hand.

[T_L_W]

98. shorter version

President Obama went on TV and basically said "we aren't getting involved there is really not much difference between the two men anyway". I don't know what egg head he got that opinion from but now I see it repeated here and by the media such as the dorks at CNN (I HATE the media, right and left BTW). People are simply still in the process of propping up and supporting everything the president says. He and they and the dorks at CNN are missing the point...it is about the will of the people and their right to have the person they elected take office. It is not about the USA. I am not saying the US should get involved, but damn it I am proud of the Iranian people, just as I was a few years ago of the Ukrainian people. Both are asserting their right to self determination which is something we have failed to do since 2000.

[wildeyed]

33. If I could rec this post, too, I would. n/t

[Kaleko]

37. Hey wildeyed, now I'm gonna have to steal

your avatar.

:hi:

[wildeyed]

40. Here are several to choose from.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5854947&mesg_id=5854947

:hi:

[Kaleko]

42. Thank you! We're twins now.

Soon to be virtual octuplets... then gazilloplets and so on...

Green is no longer just for frogs.

[woo me with science]

99. Yup. nt

[nomaco-10]

13. kicked and reccd. Great post. n/t

[bdamomma]

14. good post, and I stand in support of those who are risking

their lives to voice their dissent.

[t0dd]

15. k&r nt

[fujiyama]

16. I've seen apologists for all sorts of scum on this website

Some posters think everything is "psyops" or CIA or Rove or some such bullshit. When the previous administration was in power, their paranoia at times seemed almost justifiable, but now they just look like they've had a few too many hits to the head. Of course, these posters are typically getting talking points from those that hail A-jad as a great ant-imperialist socialist, fighting Mousavi, who I guess is a pawn of private industries. I don't know, because their talking points change all the time.

I wish you, your family, and the rest of the protesters the very best. They have showed great courage and have shown what lengths people will go to for a bit more accountability from their leaders. It's obvious Mousavi isn't some sort of secular hero, after all he made it through the weeding process set forth by the council but I think many Iranians realize that saying really stupid things at the world's stage and implementing really bad economic policies doesn't create prosperity and lead to a peaceful future. At times I wish we could do more to support them, but history shows that it is best they chose their own destiny - and any changes that occur are organic and internal - as opposed to "regime change" brought about by outside powers. I'm glad we've stayed away. The last thing we want is for these students to look like pawns of the US and Israel and be easily dismissed.

[lxlxlxl]

81. 2nded

great reply...too dumb this morning to craft anythign better.

[CreekDog]

17. Tell it

could not have said it any better.

:fistbump:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

18. the thing you need to understand...

...is that there are a lot of stupid people here, just like everywhere else.

[Rebubula]

28. As George Carlin said...

....look at the stupidity of the average human...and then realize that half of all people are dumber.

(paraphrased poorly)

[get the red out]

19. No matter

Things will be different now in Iran, I have no clue how, but things cannot return to the same because the people have visibly transformed through this experience. They may well not overturn this election, but this theocracy has been shaken and the people have learned to speak.

I think some liberals, not many, get reinforcement by Iran being under a virtual dictatorship because it helps them continue to wring their hands over the harm done to them through US interference in the past, it enables us to simply blame ourselves instead of looking to the future. If the Iranians dump this terrible government off their backs and prosper it is harder to constantly get people's attention with the hand-wringing over the past.

I am in no way minimizing the crimes of the US Government through the years, but it would be harder to bludgeon ourselves into paralysis with this particular crime if Iran were to truly prosper. And I want to emphasize "crimes of the US Government"; I truly believe most people of this country are disgusted when they start waking up to what has been done in our name, I know I was. But I still want the Iranian people to be able to move forward in freedom.

Every Iranian I have ever met has left me with the impression that they are a beautiful people.

[peacetalksforall]

48. "Every Iranian I have ever met has left me with the impression that they are a beautiful people."

I agree. Same impression.

[myrna minx]

20. Don't let the contrarians get you down.

This is a profoundly inspiring movement. The true courage, passion and compassion the Iranian people have demonstrated though this struggle makes me feel so heartened and inspired. I feel honored to watch this unfold.

[rollin74]

21. K & R

[cascadiance]

22. You can also remind people that many vote for Robert Byrd too, a past member of the KKK...

Though that's not as reprehensible as carting off many to be killed, which perhaps Mousavi was involved with, it is still a dark part of his past too, that people at times here in the present overlook when weighing choices. I think it is important too though that Americans do look at his past and not just ignore it as well when evaluating him in the present and contrasting his current actions with those of the past.

I sympathize with you folks that are faced with such difficult choices. We also didn't have a choice for a non-corporatist option too, so those complaining from outside our country should also recognize that many of us aren't provided useful choices to really take away corporate power out of our system, just like its hard for you to overnight take away the power of the mullahs, etc. in your system with the absence of a wide set of realistic choices.

If you have the council there looking in to charges of voter fraud, even if they are just "saying" they are doing so, that's a victory for you all wanting real democratic reform over there.

I think if you posed the following question to DUers here to help them understand the situation over there, perhaps they might be more supportive of those supporting Mousavi at this time.

"Would you rather support AhmadiNejad, and continue to support the race to nuclear weaponry at some point in the coming future, where we have a VERY dangerous situation for Iranians as well as the rest of the world, or would you rather vote for someone like Mousavi, who despite a past with very questionable actions himself, at least represents a means of stopping or moving away from this path to destruction, and perhaps later Iran's system can be fixed internally to be more of a democracy without violent revolution, invasion by an outside country like the U.S., or without a very costly war that might be nuclear down the road too."

I think phrasing it like that should help those here understand the choice that many peace loving and democracy wanting Iranians have to make at this point. Hopefully later, you'll have many better choices from the growing younger generation there that will have Iran be a very decent part of the world community, and not either threatening or subjugated as it has been in the past.

Best wishes to you all now to stay safe, but to still be firm in your resolute demands for a fair and representative government!

And a couple of my BEST friends are Iranian immigrants from my college days or earlier work days. I still need to reach them to make sure their families in Iran are doing OK now.

[nichomachus]

23. If you are on Twitter, make yourself an Iranian

The government is searching for people Tweeting from Iran based on internet settings. You can to to your Twitter settings and change your time zone to Tehran and your location to Tehran. That will slow them down a bit.

I just did it

[JackRiddler]

31. In that case, how can any "tweets" from "Tehran" be authenticated?

[Billy Burnett]

84. Now now. Questioning the authenticity of tweets makes you an Ahmadinejad supporter.

The Obama's admin shut down MS's, Yahoo's, Google's, AIM's, IM services in Iran a few weeks ago should cause one to ask a couple of questions. Why would this admin shut down the primary organizing methodology (IM-ing) of the opposition, limiting them to 140 characters? Why would the Obama admin aggressively go after the IM services after 10 years of non enforcement right before these elections?

After doing this, NOW the admin is asking Twitter to stay online because it is now the primary communication methodology to the West.

I don't know the answers, but something reeks about the move shutting IM-ing down in Iran by our government at this time.

[JackRiddler]

88. Very interesting point.

Got any links to the stories about the shutdown from that time?

Very, very curious.

[Billy Burnett]

89. Here

This story was originally reported by DUer Mika in the Latin America forum soon after it went down last month. At the time I didn't get the impact on the Iran elections and campaigns it would have.

-Do you know that the Obama admin shut down MS, Yahoo, Google, Messenger to Iran last month?-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5863428

[cayanne]

24. K&R

:kick:

[eridani]

25. The only good choice for progressives here is election integrity

Not that the US is especially good there either. None of the Iranian presidential choices is in any way progressive, so there isn't really anyone to cheer for.

[OVERPAID01]

45. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

Bush JR. won his first election by a vote of 5-4 the courts gave him the election even though everyone didn't think he should be the president. The second election Bush junior won by an even bigger margin...after 911, katrina, the onslaught of outsourcing, as well as the "patriot" act...Our elections are a joke and we have the nerve to demand "fair elections" elsewhere??? This is the same country that sat back and allowed the gaza strip to collapse because we didn't like the results of the Palestinian's "fair election". This entire fiasco ruins the credibility of our president and his den of thieves that he calls cabinet members.

[Pat Riot]

68. um

I agree with the gist of your post, but Katrina did not happen before the 2004 election. And the "onslaught of outsourcing" was way, way before the Bush Cheney takeover.

But yeah, we do have our nerve. Clicking around with insomnia the other night, just saw the documentary "Uncounted" on HBO. should be required viewing for all citizens, especially those sleepy journalists out there.

[eridani]

104. Our overlords may lack credibility, but surely our activist citizens still have some? n/t

[Odin2005]

26. K&R

[Born_A_Truman]

27. K & R

I profoundly support your courage and wish you and yours all the best!

[EFerrari]

30. One thing you might want to consider is that there are a lot of pieces to this

situation. And as this is a big place, everyone at DU is not looking at or even mainly concerned with the same piece at the same time.

Btw, last night on Charlie Rose, there was a guest who said he had friends in charge of ballot boxes in Iran. He said some places ran out of ballots at noon and they weren't resupplied until 4pm and then at closing time, the people who'd stood in lines for hours were simply told to go home.

[Billy Burnett]

85. I had to reread your post. I thought you were mentioning Ohio. n/t

[EFerrari]

103. Exactly. And that kind of report is helpful

because it's specific. Anyone who has spent a little time in the DU Election Reform forum can know how to steal an election.

[struggle4progress]

32. The best thing most of us can be doing today is asking for and hoping for transparency

[wildeyed]

34. Don't let them get you down.

Most of us get it. It seems so simple to me. People want their votes counted. Personally, I do not know enough about the demographic of Iran to make an educated guess as to who won. I do not know enough about Mousavi to decide whether he is a stand up guy or not. There were definitely irregularities in the election that have not been address. People didn't get their votes counted and they are serious about getting that rectified. I support those people.

[nomaco-10]

36. I stand with the courageous people of Iran that are ...

protesting an illegitimate election. We all know what the outcome will be, but the very fact they stood united and have taken to the streets, is one of the most inspiring things I've witnessed since Tienanmen Square.

They just need to know that people all around the world are supporting their efforts now, and will continue to support their efforts as long as it takes.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

38. What an eloquent and

insightful OP.

K&R.

[Joe Chi Minh]

39. The term, "wise-guy" has unfortunate connotations in the US.

[HughMoran]

41. Thanks for posting this

I appreciate your perspective and agree with what you are saying.

[keepCAblue]

43. K&R n/t

[WestSeattle2]

46. Ahmainejad is on his way out, believe it. The dominoes

are in motion, it's just a matter of time. We all know how "accidents" can make any problem disappear. If I were him, I would avoid airplanes, helicopters, motorcades, or even venturing outside for that matter. The ayatollahs aren't going to risk being overthrown to save his sorry ass.

[JDPriestly]

47. thewiseguy. I want information before I choose sides.

The fact that the results were announced so quickly and that the percentages of the votes never changed even after new results supposedly came in makes it appear that there was fraud in the counting of the votes or in the procedures used in the election.

That said, please remember that Mousavi was a responsible figure in the Iranian government, as I understand it, from 1981-1989. That is the period in which the Iran-Contra scandal occurred. From the point of view of Americans who lived through that time, it looks like the Iranians may have tampered in our election -- by timing the release of the hostages in exchange for an arms deal with Reagan. So, at least from my point of view, I question what kind of leader Mousavi will turn out to be. Ahmadinejad is despicable, I know. But if Mousavi was a part of the Iran-Contra deal, he is not to be trusted.

[Jefferson23]

49. Great information, thank you!

[4lbs]

50. Several pieces of logic to consider, showing that the results were rigged.

Besides the obvious failure of logic in counting 40 million votes in just a few hours, all by hand...

1.) Most of the voting populace in Iran is under the age of 30 years old, especially the newer voters.

2.) Young people overwhelmingly supported Mousavi.

3.) Who are the people protesting in the streets of Iran? The younger people.

4.) In 2003, an estimated 60% of the voting populace actually voted. Iran's population is 65 millio n people (July 2008 estimate), of that about 50 million people are eligible to vote. This time, with 40 million votes cast, that's about 80% who voted. You don't see a nearly 20% increase in the overall number of voters (33% increase from 2003's numbers) just to maintain the status quo.

5.) Somehow, with the extra 10 million votes, and the large number of inspired young voters that supported Mousavi, the incumbent still maintained the same percentage? (62% in 2003 compared to 61% now).


All the Mullahs and religious leaders in Iran are well over the age of 40, and most above 50 years old. They are afraid of the change that the young people want. However, they must realize that these young Iranians will soon become the ones in charge. It looks like it will happen sooner than later.

[Kaleko]

59. Another indicator of election fraud is this:

As I said in another post, Iranians tend to be extremely proud of and deeply identified with their ethnic kin. That's why it is utterly unbelievable that Mousavi could have lost the votes in his own hometown, Tabriz.

The sheer brazenness of the official claim that Ahmadinejad won the majority of votes in Tabriz is a sign that these guys are not even trying to hide the coup from the more astute international observers who would instantly know that the rest of the official tale is also full of holes.

[EFerrari]

70. Where there is no transparency, there can be no legitimacy.

That should be the standard.

[Billy Burnett]

86. But those accusations are constantly made of Venezuela and Cuba.

Even though there is electoral transparency in both countries. (Yes, I have been to both Cuba and Ven during elections.)

Plenty of DUers who insist otherwise, despite the fact that they don't know jack about either place.

The opposition almost always cries fowl, even in the USA.

[EFerrari]

102. That's true. One thing I've noticed about this Iranian situation

is that no one is really talking specifics about the election. There are polls cited and the too fast announcement of the results are called out but, that's about it. So, it sounds to me, anyway, as if this election is more the occasion of a rebellion than a real cause in itself. The hype, in other words, has exceeded the situation.

I'm not hearing stories about how the polls were under supplied with ballots or closed early or how people were intimidated at the polls or what the opposition wants in a revote -- monitoring or an audit or what have you.

If the election were the real issue, that's the kind of thing I'd expect to be hearing, not simply how oppressive or tyrannical the government is.

[mmonk]

52. The elections most likely aren't clean.

But of course, also, there are foreign influences working to destabilize by taking advantage probably as well.

[troubledamerican]

53. It ain't about Mousavi or Ahmadinejad... It's about the election fraud.

Count every vote.

[PufPuf23]

54. What a weird and naive thread.

We budgeted $400 million for covert ops in Iran in 2005 and have an Iran Regime Change Bill by some other name.

I don't get many DUers too. We get Twitter, the latest internet thing, in English from Iran.

The vast majority people want to be free and safe and have theiir needs met and the promise of a better future for their children regardless of nation, race, religion, or any other classification.

I am not judging rignt nor wrong of relations with Iran -- prefer fair diplomancy -- but it is naive to believe we have not been active in Iran and are being fed propaganda by our own failed media.

[Billy Burnett]

87. Thank you for mentioning this.

The same applies to US funding of overt and covert ops in Venezuela and Cuba. There is always a backlash to foreign interventionism, especially American intervention - considering US history in all 3 nations. Then the (US/foreign) organized opposition cries fowl when the election losses come down, the organization methodologies switch to rallies and disruptions.

This pattern of activity undermines and taints the legitimacy of the real domestic opposition parties, which I believe is part of the agenda, because the domestic opposition doesn't always represent the "interests" of the US/West.

[JI7]

55. they have a need to believe that the United States CIA is behind all of this

i think it makes them feel good to believe there is some powerful interests behind it all and everyone is being fooled . but they know what is really going on .

[peacetalksforall]

56. Forgive me if this has been hashed out in other threads, I don't get much time for reading recently.

I am writing to say that each time I read anything about this protest, I think of Israel.

I am rethinking all the opinions I formed while in an on again, off againg fright that really unnerved me. For months over the past few years I've dreaded getting up and listening to the news comeing from Iran. I literally scared myself to the point of stress thinking that I would wake up to an announcement that Israel had invaded Iran. I watched and listened to signals from the Cheney administration and from Israel. There were so many scares and at time anonymous peole would name dates that it would happen.

I truly believed that certain U.S. Generals had a lot to do in not letting it go forward. (No links, don't ask for them - just my formed opinion.)

Now, I'm all mixed up. I believe Israel panted for war and the bombing of Iran. I believe the energy that has gone into not allowing any neighboring country to get nuclear defesne or offense has always driven them, but there is something else. Or many things that is driving Israel. The second is the military power of Iran.

My gut told me that Israel was disappointed to learn that A-jad's position was shaky. Something tells me that Israel still wants to bomb Iran, but it might be postponed without A-jad and it might never happen if he is kicked out. It's not all about him - it's the clerics. They seemed to have never lifted a finger to prevent being bombed by Israel. But they will lift a finger to keep in the good graces of all the people of Iran who are protesting. They are outnumbered.

There are not many people in this country and others who have NOT had a very good 'picture' of the people of Iran. They are getting an excellent picture now and some in the U.S. are discovering that there are real people there - it's not all about the 'big mouth' and the religious leaders. We've heard for a long time that the predominant age group is under 35 and very 'westernized' in the current European culture and to some degree us - for music and the same kind of technology. In other words, we have had a good look at who would be bombed and it's not going to work to bomb them any time soon. They (Israel) would have to restart their world wide propaganda project from scratch to re-generate the hate that could justify bombing them. We have known in the past that Israel and Iran have traded heavily, have sanctioned each others culture on a business level, and we cant't forget that Iran was the first country in the neighborhood to recognize Israel when it was founded.

Where is Israel now. Really! I'm not sure.

[grantcart]

60. Nobody wanted a 'surgical strike' more than Ahmadinejad

The hardliners in Israel and Iran (and the neocons in the US) want these military confrontations and tensions high.

Earlier this year Syria imported a nuclear reactor.

Israel quietly bombed it.

Syria quietly protested and it was all over in 3 days.

Ahmadinejad says the outrageous things that he says and takes the provocative actions he does because he is trying to provoke Israel.

A bombing would solidify support for him.

It is a classic diversion effort by a failed middle eastern dictator.

The diversion helps Israel avoid very difficult issues.

Obama's presence has reduced tensions and, as a result, Iranians are not cornered into backing a threatened leader but face him and threaten him.

Israel had every right to be threatened by the language of Ahmadinejad. If he goes and his language goes then Israel will no longer have linkage and have to face hard choices. They will have to choose between the US good relations or violently confronting settlers that vow never to move even if they have to fight to the death. This is what happens when people paint themselves into corners.

[peacetalksforall]

62. "Ahmadinejad says the outrageous things that he says and takes the ....."

contt. ... provocative actions he does because he is trying to provoke Israel.

A bombing would solidify support for him."

So, are you saying he is just like Cheney? :o)

Seriously, we will have to wait to see what happens and how much mollifying will be comeing from the mouth of the new leader and the clerics who pretend be off observing at the back of the room.

All your points are good.

[grantcart]

63. No for such a psychotic man he is much more intelligent than Cheney

One little bomb is all he really wanted.


Bombing always increases the support of the leader in charge, just like it did here.


But in Iran's case it would also have made the straights of Hormutz (sp?) a war zone, insurance for 1/3 of the worlds oil tankers would have skyrocketed, future's market would have pushed oil to $ 170 per barrel. That would have given Ahmadinejad the money he needed to fulfill the populist promises that he made. Never has anyone tried so hard to get bombed. I believe that if the banks hadn't started to fail in June that Cheney would have had the upper hand for a strike on their way out of the WH. I believe that Gates and Paulson intervened (also Rice at this time) and Cheney had no more pull the last 6 months. (In addition, at the same time, it has been reported that the Bush administration started discreet direct contacts with the Iranians to assure them that a negotiated agreement was the preferred path of the US government.

[peacetalksforall]

64. That means they cheated on Israel? And now Obama is making peace moves.

During the destruction and death moves against the Gaza Strip starting in December and ending in Feburary, Israel was handing out clues of an imminent bombing of Iran. With this botched up theft of votes, it means all bombs are in their holds. The death pilots are idle?

I hope this has passed.

P.S. When motives of enemies cross paths such we have here - Israel and the U.S. (plus UK) wanting to bomb Iran and the leader of Iran wanting to be bombed, it makes one think that we could have a double-double deception here - an agreed deception? That's the way it would be written in a film script.

What is fascinating is the little piece of geography that is at the center of the conflict while each side thinks they have a counter advantage through warfare technology allowing them to take the offense or defense - as needed.

Perhaps geography and some cool(er) headed thinkers are saving us.

[grantcart]

71. Israel did a lot more than hand out clues, hell they put it on Voice of America

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2008-06/2008-06-20-voa66.cfm?CFID=237560117&CFTOKEN=51523800&jsessionid=6630755127ca275d6be32b4020345c96a134

[peacetalksforall]

78. There is an interesting tidbit in that article.

This paragraph is from the Voice of America link:
"It's a very plausible scenario," said Israeli analyst Alon Pinkas. "And I would not rule a military strike against Iran, I would not rule it out."

Then, in Wiki we learn that he is 'a Fox analyst'.
"Alon Pinkas (Hebrew: אלון פינקס‎) is an Israeli diplomat, who most recently served as Consul general of Israel in the United States. <1> He was succeeded by Aryeh Mekel as Consul General. He is currently a foreign affairs analyst for Fox Television.

Pinkas has also served as Chief of Staff to Shlomo Ben-Ami and David Levy (Ministers of Foreign Affairs). He was a foreign policy advisor for Ehud Barak and political advisor to Shimon Peres.<1>"

Voice of America <> Fox Television? A fun connection under Cheney since the VOA article is dated 2008.

[FarrenH]

58. I'm a South African, not an American

my dismay at the Bush administration led me to sign up here and participate.

And I can tell you a great many South African hearts and minds are with you right now. My South African facebook contacts are posting almost hourly updates. We desperately hope that people power can ensure that the will of the Iranian people triumphs. We are also astonished by the courage and fearlessness displayed by the protesters in Tehran. Aluta continua!

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. thank you for your wise counsel. Please don't let a tiny minority here on DU get you down.

I'd do not mean those who have sincere questions and are a bit skeptical of the U.S. media. I mean those who reflexively side with even ignorance and despotism on purely ideological grounds.

And I say this as someone who spends at least 80% of their activism criticizing American policy in the Middle East. Ideology can blind even intelligent people into thinking, "my enemy's enemy is always my friend." Obviously, as we see in this case, that simply is not always true and is a deeply narrow and myopic worldview - and a very dangerous worldview.

[earcandle]

67. Everyone everywhere is getting hurt, including our soldiers, our students, our mothers, our fathers,

our Americans for other people in other countries, while we
are falling apart here economically, and in spirit.  Some here
are driven by images of angels and gods and satanic
projections of their weaker selves.  Some here are driven by
the need to feed, clothe and shelter their families.  We are
all suffering, and there are some on the planet that are
causing all of these casualties.

What do you say we address that issue?  Who are the fuckheads
with the money to buy and sell weapons?  Who are the fuckheads
making live virus vaccines to murder the masses with the fear
of pandemic and the authority of police to make parents and
children take the drugs?  Who are the fuckheads putting people
in jail for marijuana when it is a better pain killer than
anything the pharmaceutical industries have on the market.  It
won't make you dizzy,  bruise easily, keep you from engaging
in healthy sex, cause you instant death, or thoughts of
suicide!   It makes you peaceful and happy and open to life. 
It has enormous medical benefits.  

Hey Californians!  A shout out- Lets take California out of
debt and out of the dark ages as the leader of the USA by
legalizing pot and letting the kids legitimize their
businesses and their buds and make love not war!  The we can
tax it, and that tax will bring us enough money to balance our
budget, and the rest of the country will follow suit, bringing
the youth to the front so they can move on.  

That way we can do what you request, which is pay attention to
the jewels in all of us one place at a time.  

What does Iran need to pull out of it?  

Obama is right to keep out of this election.  The Iranians can
manage their potential Democracy just fine.  We don't need to
be in another battle, and besides these two guys are not
different enough to yell about.  And our intentions are clear.
 Keep the peace.  Negotiate so we can do trade and make our
world healthy again.  You ask too much, sir.  Manage your own
household. 

[Maru Kitteh]

69. K'd and R'd - Great post

[burning rain]

73. Mousavi's no good. He opposes gay marriage. Might as well keep I'm-A-Dinner-Jacket.

*dunce*

[Enthusiast]

74. K&R Great post, wiseguy! nt

[and-justice-for-all]

75. If the Guardian Council picked Mousavi to against Mahmoud..

what is the real story here? Why would council pick Mousavi to run?

Something smells really bad and to read that "even more strangely all candidates lost to AhmadiNejad in their hometowns by huge margins" just adds to the aroma.

[thewiseguy]

97. I should not have said picked...

Every election cycle, hundreds decide to run for president. The guardian council reviews every applicant's case and decides who can run.

Mousavi was a former prime minister and it would have been almost impossible to bar him from running.

The guy who came 4th, Karroubi, received 5 million votes in the 05 presidential elections but did not even get more than 300,000 votes this time. According to his campaign manager he had more people volunteering for him than his vote total...

[barbtries]

76. that's a lovely quote

i work with an Iranian. she thinks that along with fraud, AhmadiNejad bought much of the rural vote. she believes revolution is in the air and that the people will prevail. i hope so.

[AngryAmish]

77. You are at the wrong site if you expect respect for freedom

No, all anyone has to be is anti-US.

[woo me with science]

100. Way to sum it up.

Fortunately, I still believe that they are far in the minority here.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

79. Most people only follow the enemy of mine enemy is my friend rule.

If Bush didn't like him, he must be okay. And it doesn't matter what Obama thinks.

[susanr516]

80. Thanks for the explanation

I am almost sure there must have been wide-scale election fraud, due to the crackdown on communications and the foreign press, but I knew almost nothing about Mousavi. I hope the Iranian people get a leader based on an accurate count of the votes or a revote as quickly and peacefully as possible.

[Douglas Carpenter]

82. another kick for an excellent post

[alfredo]

83. K&R

[redqueen]

90. "Humans are the member of one body, which are from the same jewel of creation.

While one member gets hurt, the rest can not stand it."


LOVE this OP, and thanks very much for including that quote. :)

[Douglas Carpenter]

91. just curious, how do you think this effects the authority of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei ?

Given that his authority is largely religious and his ability to be seen as an exemplary Muslim and a righteous man. Now that much of Iran must be now thinking that he is a liar and cheat, will we see a great deal of damage to his political as well as religious authority?

What would be the political consequences of Ali Khamenei losing his moral authority?

[thewiseguy]

96. Khamenei has perhaps lost every crediblity that he had

When I grew up in Iran many people would badmouth him anyway. The country was already divided but regime's use of violence against protesters has alienated much of their supporters.

In fact some of AhmadiNejad's supporters also rallied alongside Mousavi supporters wanting their votes back.

[earcandle]

101. that makes sense to me. A protest against a corrupt voting system makes more sense than the person

chosen.  

[kestrel91316]

92. The people of Iran have my deep sympathy in this time of trouble, and

I wish them the best of luck in achieving the democracy they seek. If Mousavi is a step in that direction in their minds, then I hope they can put him in office.

NONE of my Persian clients here in Los Angeles (and I have many) support Ahmedinejad at ALL, and all consider him a complete madman. I do not believe that he was fairly re-elected. Fascist dictators never are.

[RedCloud]

93. You can get people at the cinema. Adults $10, kids $5. I prefer matinees.

Sorry. Just trying to help the chill set in.

[thewiseguy]

95. Thanks to everyone for your nice comments

I appreciate it very much. :fistbump: :pals:

I will definitely respond to your questions.