I live in Freeperville.

[Atticus]

We have three political parties: Republicans, Democrats and Democrats(wink,wink!) I'm a Democrat(BOTH eyes WIDE open).

Our local "discussion board" could be "Free Republic" but for the few truly local and mundane threads about area businesses and weather. Needless to say, this was "McCain-Palin" territory. Of the hundreds of Obama posters my wife and I printed and tacked up, about 80% "disappeared" by late morning the next day. Of course, the political comments on the discussion board ranged from uninformed to overtly racist and sexist. (They didn't like Hillary, either)

So, to my surprise, one of the most rabid neo-cons on the board started talking like a moderate several days after the election. I actually recall thinking at the time: "this is BS---Bush-lovers don't develop reason and integrity this quickly!" But, for a few weeks, he posted that he, being the honest and patriotic conservative that he was, would give the President the benefit of the doubt, just as all those damn liberals should have given his hero, W. Yup, he would "support the president" until he had reason to do otherwise.

Guess what?

He has found LOTS of reasons to do otherwise! In fact, today he lectured on-line at length about how, essentially, we are all bound for socialist hell with Obama in charge. He listed a dozen or so of the actions he claimed supported his view of things. "Obama" he ranted "even strongly supports---(distract the children!)---LABOR UNIONS!

I know why he really opposes Obama and so does he. If we had to have a non-Republican president, it should have been a Democrat(wink, wink!), not a DEMOCRAT. (He thinks Joe Lieberman is a good, "old-style" democrat) And, Obama didn't even have the decency to be Caucasian!

Eight years ago this guy was telling me to "get over it". I never did. I wonder if he will.

I'm lovin' it

[muntrv]

1. Regarding the meme about "socialist hell," show them the link below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5780523

[patrice]

2. I would like to try to get one of these guys to TELL me precisely why Socialism is Evil.

Standard answer: "It takes from the deserving and gives to the un-deserving." =

This one is pure Blasphemy when it comes from the mouth of a religious person. Judgement is mine sayeth the Lord.

Isn't making material possessions and the acquisition thereof the measure and justification of any life the same thing as worshipping the golden calf and the god Mammon? Shouldn't human potential be more important than things and money?

Given how important luck is in everyone's lives, what exactly is the definition of "deserve"?

Assuming that we come to some agreement upon the defition and criteria for "deserve", what about true personal values and motivations? If every hair on one's head is counted, God must love the relatively unique person for whomever/whatever s/he is, so it can't be a good thing to warp or outright deny what you really are in order to "deserve" the wherewithal to acquire material wealth.

Another standard answer: "If the group/state takes care of people, they will not develope to their fullest potential." =

First of all, NO one is proposing that the state/group do EVERYTHING for individuals, only that a basic set of human values be honored by the group and a floor established through which fewer people fall. This will free people to develope their skills and potentials more fully. This would be a basic set of human rights that would define our commonality as a nation, something that I think we are sorely missing now: What does it MEAN to be American? Who ARE we to one another, other than competition for limited resources? With more group supported values, there will be plenty of individual personal organic motives left for persons to develope higher and beyond what the group provides.

People don't develope to their fullest potentials under Capitalism anyway, so it's not superior in that regard to Socialism. Capitalism requires a specific set of competitive and materialistic values that dominate and oppress most more creative and original values. We are NOT Free. Capitalism operates on a cookie-cutter personality type that is dedicated to conformity, paranoia and dog-eat-dog greed; genuine spirituality is not necessary and is even pretty anti-thetical to Capitalism as are uniqueness and spontaneity.

.........................................

I'd really like to get people to talk about why Socialism is supposed to be sooooooooooooo Evil. I bet you could come up with a really good counter to every argument they use.

[izquierdista]

4. In a nutshell

Having lived a while in former Communist countries, I make one observation about the difference between Communism/Socialism and Capitalism: In a socialist system, the government makes sure you have what you need; in a capitalist system, the government allows you to buy what you want.

[patrice]

3. P.S. Try this one on them: In the bible of "conservative" American economics, Adam Smith's

The Wealth of Nations, LABOR is defined as THE basic element of Capitalism. Labor is a real value as oppossed to an ephemeral value like stocks, bonds, or other financial instruments.

You can google The Wealth of Nations and read this yourself or pm me if you want the cites.

If your labor is your capital, then you have an economic duty to seek a REAL return on the investment of your REAL capital/labor. Money, which has recently been shown to be nothing but electronic digits processed in privately own processes, run by privately owned computers, in privately owned financial institutions, is not a REAL value. It's an abstract value, as are paychecks and jobs (since jobs mostly produce only paychecks and money, or credit, actually, which is even MORE abstract.)

If individuals are to form a group, there must be a relationship amongst them in order for the group to function. There must be an economy, preferabely, something Real exchanged for something else that is Real - otherwise there is no group.

Freepers may call it Socialism if they insist, but it's also Capitalism, because you have an economic duty to obtain Real value in exchange for the Real Value of your Capital/Labor. What are some REAL values produced by the group? Real values that would be worth exchanging Labor for: Things like a complete and appropriate Education, comprehensive Health Care, a sane budgetary process, and a rational National Defense.