Our local police "accidentally" killed someone...

[CoffeeCat]

This is so incredibly sad. A 21-year old calls police and says he's going to kill himself and that he
has a gun. Obviously, this guy was screaming for help. The police fire three shots--which they thought
were bean-bag bullets, not real bullets. Turns out one of the shots was a plastic projectile and not
a bean-bag bullet. The 21-year old was shot in the neck and died. So sad.

http://www.whotv.com/news/who-story-standoff-death-cause-061209,0,2155903.story

An official cause of death has been released for 21-year-old Justin Schleuning, the Urbandale man involved in a three-hour standoff with Polk County deputies earlier this week. The Polk County Medical Examiner says he died from a gunshot wound to the neck.

Schleuning called 911 in the early morning hours of June 8th, threatening suicide and claiming he had a gun. Authorities were able to locate him using the GPS in his cell phone.

After a three-hour standoff, Schleuning left his vehicle and deputies shot him with bean-bag rounds to subdue him. Schleuning was tended to by medical personal immediately and taken to a local hospital. He died Tuesday morning.

During the course of the investigation into the shooting, authorities learned only two of the three shots fired at Schleuning contained bean bag rounds. One of the shots was a plastic projectile.

Officials with the Polk County Sheriff's Office say they have no idea how the plastic projectile ammunition was switched in with the bean bag rounds.

[imdjh]

1. So you're saying they killed him deliberately?

[CoffeeCat]

3. If you're referring to 'accidentally' being in quotes...

I'm not saying that they deliberately killed him. I don't think the police conspired to kill this man.

I think someone was really, really stupid. Incredibly stupid and negligent beyond belief.

There are accidents. And then there are bad things that happen because someone was negligent in the worst
way possible. In my opinion, when someone is that reckless--it ceases being an accident. An accident is
usually no one's fault.

I think someone is at fault, and saying that this was an accident diminishes the gross negligence that happened here.

I'm sure these police officers feel bad. I don't think they meant to kill him. However, someone is dead because
of nearly inexplicable recklessness.

[imdjh]

4. I would agree about negligence.

Unlike a tazer, which is always a tazer, a shotgun which can fire lethal or nonlethal ammunition cannot be presumed to be loaded with one or the other. As a matter of policy, the person using the bean bag gun should be the person who loaded the bean bag gun. If someone hands me a pistol and says, "Go ahead, shoot him, it's only blanks." I'm not going to do that because I don't know what's in the gun.

[rhett o rick]

10. Hard to classify it as an accident when a gun is pointed at someone and deliberately fired.

It wasn't an accident that he was struck with a projectile from the gun, it was an error in what projectile was loaded into the gun which lead to his death. Even if the bean bag projectile hit him in the neck or head, death is a possibility.

[imdjh]

12. That's true, and ultimately a surgeon is knifing you. nt

[rhett o rick]

14. So do I understand you to agree that it wasn't an accident? It was a mistake that cost someone their

life.

[tuckessee]

16. Is it an accident if the surgeon uses a chainsaw instead of a scapel? n/t

[Raineyb]

2. Are they trying to say they don't know the difference between bean bags and

plastic projectiles? Sounds like bullshit to me.

[imdjh]

I'm wondering what a "plastic projectile" is. (other than lethal obviously)

[armyowalgreens]

29. See my post below yours.

[armyowalgreens]

27. I could see how if someone wasn't paying attention they could switch them...

http://www.goodstuffgoodguys.com/browseproducts/CTS-37mm-Kinetic-Less-Lethal-Rounds--Foam-Batons.html


Edit wrong jpg for plastic round...Searching. Okay fixed...

Depending on how the quickly the cop grabbed the shell, he or she could have fucked it up. It's still negligence, however. I just understand how a little carelessness could bring about this result.

[Raineyb]

34. Then perhaps they shouldn't look so much alike that someone could

"mistakenly" pack the wrong one.

How stupid is it to have something lethal and something "non-lethal" look that much alike that by not paying attention you'd pack the wrong one?

This is of course assuming that the two rounds are in fact similar looking and not that the cop who packed the plastic projectile is just a murderous fuckwit.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

5. Sounds like they should have used a taser.

[rhett o rick]

11. Or maybe they could have talked to him. Was there an immediate danger to the public. nm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. Well anytime you have a suspect with a gun it's a problem.

[rhett o rick]

24. Yes I agree a problem. But there should be alternatives tried before we kill people. nm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. They were trying alternatives and screwed up doing so.

A taser would have been an alternative with a less likely lethal outcome.

David

[imdjh]

6. pics

[onethatcares]

7. jeez, this is Florida again, isn't it?

:banghead:

[imdjh]

13. Iowa actually. So now what do you think about it?

[onethatcares]

19. I think it's insanity

If law enforcement doesn't have a clue about what they are using in their weapons, we screwn.

BTW, Polk County Florida has a very dubious distinction too. That's why I thought that.

[imdjh]

21. I was just ragging you. It's always open season on Polk County Florida.

Let's face it, without Polk County Florida, the news in Tampa would be as boring as hell. In Tampa Florida an 80 year old man kills his mother. In Polk County Florida he kills his mother, stuffs her body with meth, and ships her to New York.

[rhett o rick]

8. Wonder why they were aiming at his head or neck? nm

[armyowalgreens]

31. My guess is they were aiming at his upper chest.

a bean bag round to the upper chest will knock the wind out of you and probably knock you on your ass.

A careless cop who didn't choose the right round probably didn't aim well either. And now we have this...

[rhett o rick]

9. Locally we had a mentally disabled man shot by "accident".

He was in a tree and the deputy decided to get him out of the tree via taser. Instead of her taser she used her gun. What the hurry was to get him out of the tree is a mystery to me. Even a taser may have caused him injury in a fall from the tree.

[dorkulon]

30. This phenomenon of accidentally shooting a gun instead of a taser

is going to become more and more common. Already happened in Oakland.

[Statistical]

15. Police need to retrain. There is NO SUCH THING AS NON LETHAL.

Even the military (which is glacially slow in accepting change) started changing doctrine 2 years ago.

There is no such thing as non lethal
There is no such thing as "less than lethal"

Bean Bags & Plastic bullets are LESS LETHAL.

To use a LESS LETHAL device the situation should still warrant lethal force.

Did this situation warrant lethal force? If not then that is the problem.

Less lethal can and will kill. It should be used ONLY in a situation where lethal force is warranted by Police want to make an effort to end the situation without death.

Police lately have been WAY OVER USING less lethal devices (bean bangs, sponge rounds, sting balls, tazers, etc) they are using them as lower class of force and it is wrong.

If a situation doesn't warrant shooting someone then it doesn't warrant tazing them.

[imdjh]

17. Schleuning had told the police he had a gun.

More actual information might convince me that they did the wrong thing. If they were screaming at him from multiple directions, as I have seen done on videos of other things, and they shot him because he didn't "Get down on the ground!" fast enough, then I can see some room for improvement here.

I really don't get that screaming at people thing. When multiple people are screaming at me (or when I am listening to The View) I can't hear what any one of them is saying. When someone is screaming at you, you are focussed on the screaming, not what they are saying. I have even seen police videos where they are screaming multiple directions like, "Get down on the ground. Keep your hands were I can see them. " Well, I don't know about you, but if I am going to get down on the ground, I need to put my hand down in front of me. I have seen seasoned criminals get down with their hands in the air the entire time, it's something of a skill and requires that one be able to lower himself to his knees without the use of his hands and then go into a wide bow before sliding into the completely submissive position where upon four cops jump on your back. I'm not going to do that. I'm not sure I can do that. If I go down on my knees unsupported, I'm going to fall over.

So I'll probably get bean bagged.

[rhett o rick]

26. I feel the other way. More information might convince me they did the right thing.

But I certainly agree with your comment re. screaming. If you have someone that is extremely agitated and you start screaming at them, they are apt to react badly. I probably would, the screaming would make it very difficult to think. Thus making it harder to do the right thing.

[cagesoulman]

18. W-hotv (he he he)

:evilgrin:

[JerseygirlCT]

20. That's so sad on a few levels

Starting with dealing with someone in that condition with violence... Did he have his gun out and ready to use? Was he threatening anyone with it?

Sad.

[LadyHawkAZ]

23. Good God....

You never ever ever ever everevereverever point a gun at anyone or anything EVER without first checking to see if it is loaded and what with. As in opening it up and looking to see the load yourself. You can NOT tell me a police officer doesn't know that. Didn't they train these guys before they handed them a uniform?

[BlooInBloo]

25. Did you deliberately point the gun at him? Yes. Did you deliberately pull the trigger? Yes...

Was it an accident? Yes.

:rofl:

[armyowalgreens]

28. Non-lethal rounds are used all the time in these situations...

They were probably trying to save the persons life.

I just wish they had used one of these.



Taser round.

Negligence? yes.

But there was nothing intentional from what I can see.

[BlooInBloo]

32. Yes. The terrorists' new favorite device.

[krispos42]

33. Sounds like it might have ruptured a blood vessel...

...or maybe crushed his larynx. It might still have happened with a beanbag round; those things are suppose to be like Mike Tyson giving you a roundhouse punch.