"The BIBLE Literacy Project" 80 school Districts in 30 States" Washington Journal

[in_cog_ni_to]

It's an 'elective' course in our PUBLIC schools. MOSTLY elective...as per David Van Biema, Time Magazine, guest on Washington Journal. Bring it to MY schools and you will lose my tax dollars. They have their foot in the door now. Next step...prayer at lunch. Biema says the BIBLE is a HUGE part of our world and should not be ignored. IT'S NOT IGNORED! It's taught in CHURCHES!

What happened to separation of church and state? What exactly is CHURCH for? Why do they need to teach the BIBLE in our public schools?

I want a course on Islam in our PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

[valerief]

1. That's soooooooo un-American. I wish we were like the other civilized countries in the world. nt

[ecstatic]

2. I wonder if non-christians and atheists are graded unfairly

if they challenge certain bible passages, etc.

[whistle]

3. New World Order = State Religion

[Dinger]

4. I'm Going To Try & Call In. Wish Me Luck

I am a piublic school teacher, and a Christian, and I have a copy of this bullshit article in front of me, and I am ready to roll!

1. Yes, if this is offered, other faiths/beliefs need equal time. david neocon biema says he doesn't think other beliefs/faiths needed as much time because the bible has influenced western civilization more. So what! Does the Constitution say that it's o.k. to teach a "majority faith" approach only? It's not the separation of some religions (except one) and state, its the separation of church and state.
2. Therefore, if an "elective" bible course is offered, it should be required to take courses on ALL other beliefs/faiths.
Yeah, like people cando that! That's for college.
3. Etc.

I have to try a little speed dial magic here. Hope it works.

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. YAY!!!! I hope you get through!!! GOOD LUCK!!

:hi:

[Dinger]

8. I'll Be The One From Eland, Wisconsin (nt)

[Dinger]

22. I Didn't Get Through. Tried To E-mail, But It Was Too Late

I went on a bit of a rant in this thread instead.

[Bitwit1234]

5. And you are not allowed to dress as a witch on Halloween.

[Bitwit1234]

10. I had to come back and add this PS

What in the world ever happened to the word Tolerance in our language. By that I mean what gives the ranting and raving religious fruits the right to tell Americans what they should worship, where they should worship and cram their beliefs down everyone's throats.

[mainer]

6. If they changed it to "religious literacy" I'd be okay with it

and I'm an agnostic. I am reading the Bible really carefully for the first time in my life and it's such an education. I wish I had read it earlier in life. It's awakened my eyes to how seriously weird some Old Testament beliefs are. I think students should be exposed to that, as well as to the Koran and to the pantheon of gods from the ancient world.

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. This is just the first step for these zealots. After this, their excuse will be,

"well, we already teach a Bible course in our schools, what's wrong with parayers at lunch? What's wrong with a prayer before a football game? What's wrong with a prayer in class before we begin our school day?" This is just their first freakin' step. They're just like our government...GIVE THEM AN INCH THEY WILL TAKE A MILE. I have no doubt in my mind what they are doing!

[yardwork]

9. I would argue that Paganism has had as much of an influence

So if this comes to my state, I'll be lobbying for teaching Paganism and Wicca in the schools. That ought to go over well around here - smile!

[brook]

12. Insidious

attempt to insert themselves into public education, isn't it?

Most churches offer Bible Studies - and that's where such studies belong, imo.

Now, if they were advocating courses in Critical Thinking, Civics and the Constitution, I'd be all for it. In my mind, those subjects are more important to the future of this country.

[cgrindley]

13. Islam is relatively unimportant

to Western literature. The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, on the other hand, are quite important. You simply cannot properly understand literature if you do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of Biblical materials. It doesn't matter if you are an atheist (which is what I am, don't forget), or if you are religious. All sorts of books and poems are meaningless without a proper background. It's all part of literacy. If you don't know the Bible, you're not properly literate.

Take, for example, Vonnegut. He is an atheist. But Cat's Cradle is incomprehensible without a knowledge of Jonah, Job, Song of Songs, Genesis, Psalms, Proverbs, Matthew and Revelations. Sirens of Titan makes way more sense when seen through the New Testament. Ditto Jailbird. And so on.

As for writers such as Milton? Try reading Paradise Lost without knowing the Bible ass backwards. It's not going to work.

Of course, the Bible should be taught in a way that encourages atheism and free thinking. The documentary hypothesis. The Q-source. Stemmatics. All the traditional areas of hard core textual scholarship will inform students that they are only dealing with a fictional book. Folk tales. Archetypes and so on.

As long as the course is run properly, there's nothing wrong with it.

[mainer]

14. but it's important to our current-day world

If the only purpose is to inform our understanding of western literature, I agree with you about the Koran. But the question is -- what is this literacy class for? Is it part of a literature course? Is it for general education? Is it for understanding our modern world? If one is to understand the Classics, for instance, a class in Greek and Egyptian gods would be far more useful.

[Igel]

20. They used to teach

Greek and Roman mythology. Even when Bibles weren't allowed in schools (in my district), they "taught religion." Except they didn't teach it as a religious system to be believed, nor did they mock them as silly and show how false they were.

They simply taught "Ancient Greeks had the following pantheon: ...." Simple enough. No reason to push atheism or Xianity. Not the school's task, that.

It was also simple enough to show how the system changed over time, i.e., what the different interpretations were.

Now, the Qur'aan in important for some international politics, and for understanding the overt religion of a small percentage of Americans. The problem is the same that would be found with "teaching the Bible": Whose interpretation? Whatever interpretations that find expression in politics and culture. There is no "true interpretation", however much individual sects say there is. That's a difference between Bible literacy and Bible belief.

Now, bin Laden's interpretations seem important now. But if you read the Qur'aan and say where he gets his interpretation, you must also say what the "true interpretation" is. CAIR and others would not take lightly the defamation of Islam; the US would immediately back down, and only the approved, true interpretation would be taught. This would cross the line, unless it was taught explicitly, "Most Muslims believe this, but there are other important interpretations we won't be teaching you."

[cgrindley]

29. I'll tell what I do

I teach the King James. It's wonderful poetry in its own right, and if a poet--even a contemporary one--is going to name drop a verse or two, dimes to donuts says it's from the KJV.

It's one thing to teach the Pantheons of various religions, but their systematic theologies and hermeneutics are another matter entirely. Presenting, for example, 2000 years of opinion on the Song of Songs is just as difficult a task as presenting the equivalent opinion on a matter in the Koran. For that matter, to really understand the Roman afterlife is a difficult task, and it'd be easy enough to spend an entire semester just looking at the symbolism of the harpocrates in Egyptian culture.

Like I said in another post, it's unlikely that a typical highschool could find someone qualified to do the job in a way that wouldn't result in a flurry of lawsuits and complaints. This stuff is complex. You can't just cobble something together.

[cgrindley]

26. I agree with you

everyone should know a little about all of these mythological systems, but I'd have to suggest that it would be best to leave all of this material to college where it can be taught by someone with a more specialized training.

The problem with comparative religion at the highschool level is that there are too many nutjob parents out there who would object to little Billy learning about Thor or Mohammed or anything other than the idea that the bible is the literal word of god (how people can stay so utterly oblivious of actual biblical scholarship is a continual source of baffling mystery to me... eg if you're religious, wouldn't you be tempted, just once in a while, to look some of this stuff up). Teachers have to be able to conclusively and firmly establish control and direct the class without stepping on anyone's rights. It's so much harder to do in the schools than it is in the colleges.

[KharmaTrain]

19. Then Teach It As A Literature Course in High School Or Beyond

This dude says he's Jewish...but appears very ignorant on a difference this Jew has been taught from the moment I can remember...the New Testament doesn't exist and the xtian interpretations of the Old Testament were not the same as the ones I was being taught in Hebrew School. I learned the New Testament was nothing fictional best seller. But also, through the orthodoxy in my own faith, I was able to question the whole concept of religion and the need to keep faith as something personal...not as something that is mandated or imposed on society as a whole.

In 7th grade I had a segment of my World History class deal with comparative religions...all "major" religions and it gave a very good overview of religion in the context of how it affected history. I know this is also how my children were presented and taught about religion in their school experiences. For other "views" on theology, this is and should be done outside of the public school, just like any other specialized interest is.

The problem with bringing religion into a classroom is whose religion? Yours or mine? As a Jew, I detest having my children being taught that Jesus is a god...or that there is definitively a god. Let them make that decision outside of the classroom. There's a reason it's called "faith".

[Dinger]

23. Excellent Post. I Agree With You 100%

And I'm a Christian, a very liberal Christian, and a public school teacher. Not that that makes me specialor unique, it's just where I'm coming from.

[cgrindley]

25. Absolutely. As Literature--fiction ideally

Perhaps a comparative religion class in highschool, but it's a difficult thing to teach well and I don't know how many highschool teachers I would trust with such a task. I'd much sooner prefer to keep religion in the mythology and literature file.

[kineneb]

33. "comparative religions" class

overview of all/major historical religions, including so-called pagan religions, from the beginning of recorded history. Would include Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Greek, Roman, Nordic, Celtic, Christian, Islamic, various African, North and South American, Pacific Islander, etc. belief systems.

Course includes overview of belief system, cultural origins, god/gods worshiped, influence on historical/current arts and politics.

...then watch wowsers backpeddle soooo fast they burn rubber...

"Oh, no- we can't expose them to Other Belief Systems!!"

[Redbear]

15. I support teaching the Bible as literature

I understand the concern that schools will use it as a hook to get chrsitian doctrine taught, but if there is away to avoid that, I think its better to discuss the Bible than ignore it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Fine. Then go to a BIBLE CLASS IN A CHURCH.

My tax dollars should NOT be used to pay any freakin' teacher to teach a Bible Course in a PUBLIC SCHOOL.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. dupe

[Dinger]

21. Some Counter Arguments:

1. It's not legal, and the Constitution doesn't say the "separation of SOME churches & state." It's separation
of church & state, period.
2. I have this fucked up article in front of me, and it openly says that "Bad courses will be taught," and "People
will teach a Sunday School class," but "We'll get a court to tell us what to do and then we'll fix it."
THIS HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY! END OF FUCKING STORY!
3. Where in the hell will teachers get the time to do this? It is damn hard already to fit what is needed
into the curriculum. What curriculum will be cut to make room for this? Or should we make the school day longer?
4. I disagree COMPLETELY with what this article says, as far as "It may not be necessary to provide Islam, Buddhism, or
Hinduism with equal time." Oh really???? Even if ONE course was taught, where all beliefs/religions were given equal
time, oh never mind, that one's impossible.
5. This article also mentions ( so did neocon van biema on c-spin this morning) that funds have already been
provided for high school electives (& god knows what else) in Georgia (big surprise, huh?). The article goes on to
say that "two privately produced curriculums crafted specifically to pass church-state muster are competing
for schools nationwide." Isn't that special?
6. Here is some more total and complete bullshit from this article: "These new curriculums plus "polls" (What polls?
Hmm, I wonder) suggesting that over 60% (Wow, 60 fucking percent!) of Americans favor secular teaching
about the Bible suggest that a Miss Kendrick may soon be talking about Matthew in a school near you."
Nothing cited, just claims they fabricated. What the hell is this? Some kind of threat?
7. The District vs. Schempp case removed prayer and devotion from public school. Of course, there's more
bullshit in this article: " But a new post-Schempp coalition (WHAT coalition?- more abstract reference, nothing
specific, but we all here know what this "coalition" is) INSISTS it is essential to do so ("bring back the
source of all that sectarianism"). Yeah, that's worked well in the Middle East, hasn't it?
8. This van beima IDIOT seems to think he is Shakespeare re-incarnated. He compares the works of
Shakespeare to the bible, and I really like (sarcasm) how he goes from a 1992 survey of English
teachers who expressed the amount of time Shakespeare was taught to that of the bible, and immediately
connects to the bible/Shakespeare comparison. Oh yeah, there's a little thing clearly implying
that the number of wars and number of people martyred for makes the more influential. SO WHAT!
His main argument for teaching the bible in the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM is (his opinion) that it's influence
on western civilization makes it "o.k." to VIOLATE the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION!
9. This promotes the idea of a "Majority Faith." (Something this article actually mentioned).
10. This is state sponsored religion.
11. It is also a poorly disguised way to teach creationism in schools.
12. It is a poorly disguised plan to indoctrinate/brainwash public school students in right-wing, political
PROPAGANDA.
13. I'm getting way too mad,so I'll stop here.

[cgrindley]

32. Dude, chill

I'm an outright atheist, but I've taught the Bible more than once and at more than a few places, one of which wasa major Divinity school. You don't have to approach the Bible as anything other than a big book full of important poetry that is the raw material for thousands and thousands of allusions.

You can even teach the Documentary Hypothesis (google it) and the Q-Source--and really show your students how the various books were written and compiled from multiple often contradictory sources. That the Bible was certainly the work of man and not the word of some wholly imaginary god.

As far as the KJV goes... yeah, it's as good as Shakespeare.

If they do it right, it would be harmless. If they do it incorrectly--and here's where I strongly agree with you--it will be a clear violation of the separation of church and state. I have to admit that they'll probably screw it up. But it doesn't have to be screwed up. Not inherently.

[Dinger]

36. I Just Cringe At The Thought Of How Many Will Take Advantage Of This

Maybe part of my "testiness" is because there is a teacher I know of, in a public school, who teaches, preaches & promotes
her fuindmentalist Christian (AND rw political bullshit) in her classroom, and has gotten away with it for 20 years. I can't even begin to imagine what someone like her would do if she taught a class on the bible. It's not people like youI'm worried about, it's people like her.

[maine_raptor]

18. Render unto Caeser...........

Anyone remember that line? Hello?

Public education is "Caeser's" job, not God's.

Got it?.........Good!!!

Now crawl back into the tomb and roll that rock back in place.

Oh, and Merry Easter or whatever, Mr. Van Biema.

[Johonny]

24. BIBLE is a HUGE part of our world

Actually the Bible isn't that huge a part of my world. It's not even read by close to a majority of my world. I wonder what world he lives on?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. So they're going to teach the Flying Spahgetti Monster too?

Right?

[kineneb]

35. Ramen! n/t

[karlrschneider]

28. I might give it a thumbs up if they use this one

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

;-)

[sinkingfeeling]

30. The Bible should be considered literature just like any other book in existence.

No more, no less. I personally prefer Shakespeare. I also love the entire Harry Potter series. I would say that those two are more relevant to modern society than anything in the Bible.

[Beelzebud]

31. That will really get our science aptitude numbers up!

/me pukes.

[napi21]

34. When I was in Grade School, theysaid the Our Father prayer

at the beginning of every school day, out loud and by everyone in the class.

Yea, I know I'm old, but I went to a Catholic School, and we were told that we (as Catholics) were NOT permitted to attend the public school BECAUSE they recited the wrong Our Father prayer every day in school. I remember how WE had BUY everything ourselves (paper, pencils, binders, etc.) and the public school kids got all that stuff free! My mom & dad were always complaining about having to pay taxes to support schools we couldn't attend.

I don't remember when all this changed, but I'm sure the complaints oflots of "religious people" forced that change. I also suspect it's the same people who are now complaining now.

[Bridget Burke]

39. I went to Public School & we didn't pray in the morning....

I graduated in '66. Do the math--this was The Old Days. We said the Pledge & sang My Country 'tis of Thee.

There was the occasional prayer for a special event. I remember they said the Our Father wrong. And a Hail Mary would have made heads explode. (I was raised Catholic--there were no Parochial schools close by.)

But we always paid for our own school supplies. I got lunch free--because my grandmother ran the cafeteria!

[napi21]

40. I graduated from HS in 1961, so we aren't too much different in age.

I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pa. and that's the way it was there. I can't really speak to other parts of the Country though.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Check out The Texas Freedom Network....

They found the (supposedly) most popular curriculum sadly wanting.
Dr. Mark Chancey, who teaches biblical studies at Southern Methodist University, has authored an in-depth analysis of the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools’ The Bible in History and Literature (Ablu Publishing, 2005). Based in Greensboro, North Carolina, the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools (NCBCPS) claims that 1,000 high schools in 36 states are using its course materials (although the organization will not identify those schools). Dr. Chancey’s report shows how the curriculum advocates a narrow sectarian perspective taught with materials plagued by shoddy research, blatant errors and discredited or poorly cited sources.
www.tfn.org/religiousfreedom/biblecurriculum/ncbcpsreport/

TFW is not against Bible courses in principal, but examined the reality in Texas Public Schools.
More and more public schools are taking on the sensitive issue of whether to offer courses about the Bible. Such courses can be an excellent way to help students understand the unique importance of the Bible in history and literature. As this new report from the TFN Education Fund shows, however, teaching the Bible in Texas public schools is currently fraught with problems. Reading, Writing and Religion: Teaching the Bible in Texas Public Schools reveals that, with a few notable exceptions, the Bible courses currently taught in Texas public schools often fail to meet even minimal academic standards for teacher qualifications, curriculum and academic rigor; promote one faith perspective over all others; and push an ideological agenda.
www.tfn.org/religiousfreedom/biblecurriculum/texascourses/

A Pampa legislator wants a Bible course mandated as an elective for Texas schools--although some have adopted it already. Guess what--the TFW says this could cause problems.
H.B. 1287’s lack of standards for teacher qualifications and any requirement that instructional materials be based on sound scholarship are a recipe for abuse, Dr. Chancey said.

“The context or perspective comes from the teachers’ personal experience, often only Sunday school experience,” Dr. Chancey said. “No one should be surprised, then, when many of these classes end up being about the religious beliefs of the teacher rather than a true study of the Bible's influence on history and literature.”

The Texas Freedom Network is recommending key, common-sense safeguards be added to H.B. 1287, including appropriate training for teachers and removing the requirement that the Bible itself serve as the primary textbook.
www.tfn.org/pressroom/display.php?item_id=5351

Poor Texas schools. Teaching The Test. And now, The Bible. (Don't forget Football!)

[kenny blankenship]

38. The "Sabbath" is set aside in every state in the union so kids can go to church w/ their parents

By law, 2 days out of every 7!
Isn't that enough?

[Dinger]

41. Kick, Because c-spin Has Another Time/faux "news" Sucker On For Fascist Friday

Sheesh!