So upset about Laura Ling and Euna Lee

[Happyhippychick]

:cry:

They have been convicted by North Korea for spying. 12 years of hard labor.

[onehandle]

1. They are not prisoners. They are hostages.

We will give North Korea God knows what, and they will be out much sooner than that.

If Bush hadn't been so wimpy with them...

Bush I was a wimp with Iraq. Bush II was a wimp with North Korea.

No Bush III. Period.

[Jester Messiah]

2. Moral of the story: Don't go to NK!

The place is a hole and the government is reprehensible. What did they think was going to happen?

[Believing Is Art]

4. Actually, don't even go near North Korea

They claim they never even crossed the border into NK. If they did, it was an accident and couldn't have been by much.

[dorkulon]

10. That was always the detail that sounded odd to me.

How do you not know you're entering NK?

[Believing Is Art]

19. Yeah, same here

One would think crossing the yalu (sic?) river would be kind of obvious. I figured either 1. they didn't go into NK but are trying to sound less defensive, 2. they went a little too far onto a bridge controlled by NK, or 3. they intentionally went into NK by a hair but didn't think they'd get caught.

None of those deserve 12 years of hard labor.

[dorkulon]

21. Certainly not.

But it seems an odd strategy in dealing with NK to fib about intentionally entering.

[Believing Is Art]

24. Yeah, I'm not sure who is lying here

They could have thought getting footage in NK was a good idea and didn't think of the consequences. Or some NK guards could have spotted journalists with American accents and thought apprehending them was a good idea, regardless of which side of the border they were on. I wouldn't put much past NK at this point.

[kenny blankenship]

33. The DMZ is impossible to accidently cross, however they were arrested near Chinese border

That's nothing like the NK-SK border. At first I thought: yeah right you accidentally stumbled into NK from the South somehow accidentally dodging all the mine fields, accidentally missing the warning signs, etc. But the two reporters were doing a story on N Koreans walking into China as refugees.

[michreject]

7. They went in illegally

Oh wait. That's OK.

[WeDidIt]

54. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!

And we have a winnah!

[ClarkUSA]

3. Moral of this story: Journalists looking for sensationalistic scoops need to avoid North Korea.

[lies and propaganda]

29. yep.. the trafficing of women..so sensationalist

just making something out of nothing, these pushy women.

Moral FAIL.

[ClarkUSA]

70. Yeah, it is. And it was dumb of them to be on the North Korean border.

[Juche]

71. Indeed

It is really offensive to watch people blame these women as if it is their fault.

1. They were doing a story on human trafficing in the most human rights unfriendly regime on earth, not some bullshit story on celebrity dating or something like that.
2. Journalists have gone into NK before, including Lisa Ling the sister of one of the victims and not had this happen.
3. NK has the most despotic, irrational government on earth and is to blame for whatever happens, not a couple of journalists doing thier job. Its also not the fault of battered spouses when they get the shit kicked out of them for not doing the dishes properly either.
4. These women were not really arrested for spying, they were arrested as a bargaining chip since NK wants to restart its nuclear program and engage in international blackmail.


How anyone can blame them is beyond me. Maybe they should've shown more caution, but its still not their fault and they may not have even been in NK. Maybe the soldiers picked them up and carried them across the border.

[scarletwoman]

85. So, doing investigative journalism on human trafficking for Al Gore's "Current" TV channel

is "sensationalist"?

Wow. You've just executed a triple axel of "blame the victim".

[femmocrat]

5. I heard an explanation this morning. They have to be convicted before they will be pardoned.

Let's hope it's soon!

[arcadian]

6. Why? They were spies, they knew the game.

And now their game is unfolding on the world stage. Big deal.

[dorkulon]

11. Really.

Spies. Really? They were reporting for Current TV. Is that just a CIA front? And how exactly would you know that?

[arcadian]

15. Yeah I'm sure they are just as inocent as you proclaim.

First, who "wanders" into a foreign country to "report the news"? Do you know how hard it would be to "accidentally" cross the border into North Korea? NK is heavilly fortified. The CIA has utilized regualr journalists plenty of times in the past. But like you say, I'm sure it's just one big misunderstanding. :eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

17. They were on the Chinese side reporting on the trafficking of women.

I doubt that side's a heavily fortified as the DMZ zone, and I've seen how a lot of borders, even Russia's, wouldn't be that hard to cross and then cross back. Russia's border with Finland is just on the map, and they've never really liked Finland a whole lot. Apparently, it's the same for their Chinese and Mongolian borders, too. Lots of smuggling.

So, these reporters are at the less-fortified border reporting on smuggling and human trafficking, and you're surprised they didn't know they'd crossed the border?

[arcadian]

23. You do know that the CIA gathers intelligence from a variety of sources don't you?

From somebody as innocous as a house wife on a honeymoon in a foreign country to official diplomats negotiating peace treaties. None of these people are necessarily covert operators, but the CIA will gladly take what ever intelligence they can provide and something tells me that a "journalist" who has knowledge of the NK/China border, smuggling routes, local customs, etc, would be a highly prized asset. The CIA would be stupid if these women weren't assets. Which I'm pretty sure they are or will be.

[Blue_Roses]

35. good grief...step back from the

propaganda for a moment. These journalist were reporting on women being trafficted out of NK. Lisa Ling, the sister of Laura Ling is another serious reporter who does dangerous reporting and she is NO spy either.

Some people have really cold hearts:eyes:

[arcadian]

42. So amazing that you can judge my heart

Over one little world news issue which I have an opinion about. How are the clouds up there? Are you done dictating your moral superiority?

[Blue_Roses]

60. PROJECTION...

"Are you done dictating your moral superiority?"


that's all I see when I read your post...:eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

86. So, it's either that the CIA is stupid or smarter than everyone else?

I'm going to go with the former. They have a serious history of missing major key pieces of intell, not knowing what some of it meant, and worse. I'm going to go with the CIA had no idea what was going on.

[dorkulon]

20. I don't doubt they're fibbing about the "accidental" entrance

but it doesn't necessarily follow they're spies. There have been "undercover" reports from NK before, does that mean BBC or CNN are also spy fronts? Why would spies bring cameras? In fact, seeing as how reporters are just as banned as any other outsiders, and confers no special access or privileges, how would being a "journalist" help a spy in NK?

[arcadian]

25. Why are you jumping to ridiculous conclusions?

How many books have you read concerning the CIA? Not many judging by the body of your posts. Let me ask you this. Now that these women are at the center of a international dispute, do you think they will be debriefed by somebody with an intelligence background, whether it be CIA, DIA, INSCOM, ONI or BI&R? Per haps that was the reason why they were there, merely to penetrate the border. Don't be so completely naive.

[dorkulon]

27. Don't be so condescending.

I know we have spies. I'm sure we have plenty in NK. That's why I don't see the point of sending these noobs to get caught--what intel were they supposed to bring back. Being debriefed doesn't make one a spy -- being SENT for the purpose of gathering intel does.

[cali]

55. I doubt we have many spies in N. Korea. It's well known that our intelligence

about N. Korea has big gaps.

[Blue_Roses]

36. they were working for Al Gore' s "current news" as freelancers...

Laura and Lisa Ling have been active journalists for years...:eyes:

[cali]

53. they were on the Chinese Korean border. Different from the DMZ

dividing north and south, and they claim that they did not cross the border. But you're right of course, I mean after all, the N. Koreans are such a paragon of integrity.

:eyes:

[arcadian]

64. And the U.S. is any different?

You want to play tit for tat? Oh wait, I for got the United States is the shining white castle on the hill side, a lighthouse for the oppressed peoples of the world. :eyes:

[arcadian]

67. Yeah, no shit cali, I know what the fucking DMZ is.

Yeah I'm sure the NK/Chinese border is completely open and free and the customs officials hand out lollipops to tourists and innocent unsuspecting journalists crossing at certain checkpoints. :eyes:

[cali]

78. temper, temper.

you appear to lack any self-control. And did I say that the Chinese/N. Korean border is "completely open and free"? Of course not. Does that keep you from putting words in my mouth? Of course not.

[Arugula Latte]

31. "They were spies." -- Where is your evidence?

Just because you decided they are spies does not make it so.

[arcadian]

46. Actually, the government of a sovereign nation declared they were spies.

[cboy4]

49. the government of a sovereign nation declared they were spies

That's rich

:spray:

[CBR]

50. Isn't this the same nation whose leader said he shot a 32

on his first round of golf? Not too credible...

[cali]

57. So the next time the U.S. declares that someone is a spy, you'll

be convinced of the rectitude of the charge, right? Right?

[smirkymonkey]

63. A government run by a deranged, bat-shit crazy control freak...

I wouldn't place a lot of stock in a verdict coming from such a "sovereign nation".

[Juche]

73. You are morally bankrupt

This is what happens when idealogy blinds you to moral principal. Doesn't matter if it is right or left wing. When people start siding with North Korea on the left or hoping the economy collapses and/or we get hit with another terrorist attack so they can say 'I told you so' on the right it is a sign that they've lost touch with principals that are supposed to underly political idealogy, not supplant them.

They are bargaining chips by a despotic regime that routinely breaks the law and is trying to intimidate and blackmail its enemies. It has nothing to do with espionage.

[arcadian]

77. 1950 called Truman wants his Cold War back.

Quit living in the past where boogeyman countries are used to justify enormous defense spending bills.

[Juche]

82. I'm not sure what you are getting at

I was referring to the fact that you seem to side with the North Korean regime because they are an enemy of the USA. Do you know anything about them or what they do? Read the aquariums of pyongyang or rogue regime sometime. They have kidnapped several hundred Japanese civilians and taken them to NK to work as slaves. They threaten Japan and south korea with chemical and biological (and now nuclear) weapons. They used to pay off their debts to foreign countries by leasing their citizens as slaves to the USSR back in the 60s and 70s. however when North Koreans saw how much better life was in the USSR in the 1960s they would start breaking the law in the hopes of being sent to a soviet prison camp.

They are the most human rights unfriendly and oppressive nation on earth. When people escape from North Korea into China I have heard that some of them are amazed at how much better life is even as refugees in the poor parts of rural China, which is still fairly oppressive.

[girl gone mad]

83. How many straw men can you create in one thread?

Are you trying to win a contest or something?

[smirkymonkey]

56. He saw that one of them was wearing a decoder ring...

what more evidince do you need???

[Arugula Latte]

81. Right. Well, that and the fact that one was dressed all in black and one was all in white:

[cali]

52. and your evidence is????

oh right, you don't need no stinking evidence. They were American. That's always enough for you.

[JuliantheApostate]

75. ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwofL_gF0Wk&feature=related

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

8. They are adults and should have known what the consequence of their actions would be. Now we

are being roped into a precarious position because of those actions. That is what upsetting me now.

[Blue_Roses]

37. how are we being "roped" into a precarious situation?

we've BEEN in a shitty situation for YEARS with this hell-hole country. :eyes:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

51. Then into a postition that is more precarious than it has been. The fact of the matter

is that there is going to be and already is a lot of public outcry on this. Heck, the last time I read this thread, someone wanted to do a Raid On Entebbe scenario. North Korea is not Uganda (although both were/are run by psychopaths).

[gratuitous]

9. I caught part of The Today Show coverage

Matt and Meredith both put on their Very Serious Faces in discussing Ling and Lee, with many photos of the women as they recounted their story. Then they brought on Bill Richardson, former governor of New Mexico, who had successfully intervened with North Korea in the 1990s to persuade them to release people they had in custody. It was a very good report.

Then, as I rode to work, I started thinking about why the story was good, and it was because it was real, live, actual journalism. They had pertinent facts, knowledgeable commenters, and a good command of the details, instead of turning it into a sideshow with buffoonish commentary from Newt Gingrich or Pat Buchanan. And it occurred to me: Why did the Today Show give this story such respectful treatment, while they go directly to sideshow with, say, the nomination of a Supreme Court Justice, or coverage of the president's first trip to the Middle East?

Well, I'm sure it couldn't be because every "journalist" at 30 Rock suddenly saw a very serious side to their business.

[arcadian]

12. You think it's actual journalism because it was manufactured that way.

The story isn't real, they are spies, the fact that the media is hyping this up should tell you that. If they were ordinary shmoes, it would be mentioned once and forgotten about.

[The Hope Mobile]

16. or . . . maybe it could be because journalists look out for their own

and these are journalists . . . makes much more sense to me. Whenever a journalist is in trouble you hear about it.

[arcadian]

18. You don't think they can be journalists and spies at the same time?

Oh and yeah, the U.S. never spies, never, ever, ever, especially on the country it's declared public enemy Number 1. :eyes:

[The Hope Mobile]

87. We were talking about why the journalists are making such a big deal

of it. Whether they're spies or not . . . journalists make a big deal when something happens to other journalists.:eyes:

[Blue_Roses]

38. what proof do you have that they are spies?

NONE!

[arcadian]

43. Well, they are in jail for spying.

Pretty much says it all.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

47. And of course, NO country ever imprisons anyone on bullshit charges

Oh, except the United States, of course.........right?

[Blue_Roses]

61. that's so ridiculous

it's laughable. So you BELEIVE what the NK say? oh, wait... you said a "sovereign" nation said they were spies...

omg...:eyes:

[cali]

76. amazing isn't it?

[dionysus]

79. trusting NKs word... rich....

[cali]

59. It's your little opinion that they're spies, sorry, dear, but that's not a fact.

and what the media does or doesn't do here, isn't evidence. pitiful that you don't know the difference between fact and opinion. btw, the capture of these two hasn't gotten much media attention.

[Blue_Roses]

62. you're right...

it hasn't. I follow Lisa Ling and have been a fan of her fantastic reporting for years, so no, it hasn't been reported much

[arcadian]

69. Quit responding to my posts.

You are fucking creepy.

[cali]

74. no and right back at you.

sorry, dearie, but you don't have any power to control where I post.

[dionysus]

80. it's of your own making.

:shrug:

[Bluenorthwest]

13. I'm speechless

They are hostages not prisoners.

[cecilfirefox]

14. If I were the President I'd start gathering intel on there location(at the prison) and look at a

military rescue mission.

[AngryAmish]

26. Insanity

Do you want to start WWIII? Maybe not WWIII, but NK would go completely nuts.

[Believing Is Art]

30. During said military rescue

We drop thousands of highly explosive bongs all over the countryside. We taunt NK with Cheetos until they agree to give us back our citizens and their entire arsenal of weapons.

[tuckessee]

32. Thank goodness you're not President. n/t

[anigbrowl]

58. Indeed.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

48. You're crazy

Those assholes could execute these poor women on live TV, and there's not a damn thing we could do about it. They are, as a country, batshit insane.

[Strong Atheist]

84. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[UTUSN]

22. K&R #2 for, word. n/t

[lies and propaganda]

28. NO!

holy shit no!

I have been watching the Ling sisters since Channel One in High School.. i am Horrified by this!

FUCK YOU NORTH KOREA!

[Blue_Roses]

34. Me too!

I've been following this story since they were first captured and today just hit me hard:cry:

I hope something can be done and soon!

[Kickin_Donkey]

39. I'm not crying for them ...

Heck, they'll be out within six months after some diplomatic wrangling allowing both sides to save face.

They both will write books about the ordeal and go on the lecture circuit.

This experience will make their resumes. One will get hired by CNN as an East Asia analyst. The other will get a similar position with MSNBC.

With their name recognition, they'll get to write regularly for the New York Times and Newsweek.

Lisa and Laura will milk their sisterhood for all its worth, write a book and go on the talk-show circuit.

Not bad for a few months of journalistic martyrdom.

[arcadian]

44. Exactly.

Hell, I'd do the same thing, spend a few months in a NK prison if I was going to get a book deal out of it.

[Blue_Roses]

66. lol...

so that's the only way you could get a book deal?

:rofl:

[Zodiak]

40. If you knew what prison was like in NK

None of you would be talking about how this is all the journalist's fault and they deserve little sympathy. One DUer on this thread is so sure they are spies because...well, because he thinks so. Another one of you thinks that these journalists are clearly lying because....what? You were there and had a GPS on them? Many of you making this argument didn;t even know they were arrested on the Chinese side of the border. You just made an ass-load of assumptions.

What a bunch of cold-hearted, assuming cynics you all have become.

Hard labor in NK means death in more than 50% of cases. If they are unfortunate enough to get solitary (for let's say...giving some of their food to another prisoner or not meeting their work quota), they will be tortured and starved to death in a tiny cell without food and water.

But please continue your wild speculation as to the myriad reasons we should not care about these women. It makes my heart so warm and my faith in the future of our country so secure to see supposed "progressives" act like a bunch of cold-hearted cynics when journalists are arrested for political reasons.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

41. If you mess with the bull, sometimes you get the horns

Unless NK really did cross over and snatch them, I think it is likely that the reporters may have made a technical violation (knowingly, most likely) not thinking the consequences would be so harsh and on trumped up charges. They are likely being made a example of to not mess with the NK -- that not even the US govt can protect you once they have you.

Now that the NK can say they convicted US spies, I predict they will be released soon as a demonstration of the great magnanimity of their leaders.

[tweets 4 my sweet]

65. Oh. My. God. What a tragedy!

I can't believe the severity of the sentence...What awful news:(

[deoxyribonuclease]

68. It's almost impossible to make me angry

but this turn of events (and North Korea, in general) makes me absolutely livid. Kim Jong Il and his ilk need to remove themselves from the human gene pool ASAP.

[arcadian]

72. You need a two minutes of hate break.

:rofl: