Is a Nazi salute free speech?

[LiberalHeart]

Here's a judge who says it depends on how disruptive it is and where it's done:

http://newsgrinder.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-nazi-salute-free-speech.html

[Nica-Libre]

1. As offensive at is seems, the judges ruling

is based on precedent cases. And of course it logically would depend on location. I can stand in a movie theatre and yell, "fire" and that is not protected speech, but I can stand on the beach and yell "fire" and it would be within my constitutionally protected rights.

[Hieronymus]

2. It's certainly not in Germany ...

[Casper Alabaster]

35. Definitely not, read more here...

A. Introduction

<1> The way legal systems should deal with hate speech is a contested matter. The term "hate speech" itself suggests that it is a form of speech, and speech is generally protected in liberal states. However, this "speech" is either motivated by hatred or expresses hate, and such communication might not rise to the level of discourse that merits constitutional protection at all.
http://www.germanlawjournal.com/article.php?id=212

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Yes.

However, trespassing, malicious mischief, and a number of other things possible relevant here are not.

[LiberalHeart]

4. Can it be trespassing if it's a public meeting?

My solution, had I been in charge of the meeting, would have been an escort out of the meeting when he failed to leave (if what he did really required his ejection) -- but an arrest? Nah.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. I suspect it could be...

or something related if she's been asked to leave.

[rasputin1952]

6. I recall many years ago, in NYC my friend Danny and I were at a

parade on 5th Ave and Central Park, a group had been cordoned off and there were a group of neo-nazi's on a platform yelling at the Jews in the parade. They were surrounded by NYC Cops, who looked kind of bored. The marchers were from some organization that was pro-Israel, and things were pretty cool...but wait, this gets interesting...;)

So my friend Danny, (a Jew btw), and I, (not a Jew), are standing there listening to this abstract rhetoric about Jews being behind all of the ills of the world, and kind of getting a little ticked off, after all, both of our fathers had fought in WWII against people like these, and my step-dad, whom my mom married after my dad died, worked at Winston's Jewelry on 57th & 5th, just a hoot and holler from where we were standing, and I wondered how he'd feel about these SchutzStaffel jackasses mouthing off about this stuff. An older woman walks up and listens intently to the nazi's...I look, and on her forearm was the telltale tattoo of a Holocaust survivor. I asked her, why she was listening to this crud, she said, "Always know your enemies." Then came the nazi salute w/these boneheads standing like they are in Munich in the late 30's. The lady turned to me ans said, "these aren't 'real' nazi's, they are just assholes.".

At this point in the parade, there were some Scottish Bagpipers at the intersection, and one of the "nazi's" shouted something to the effect of, "you faggots are next after the Jews". Well let me tell you...This was one hell of a fight to see. Pipers in full dress, kilts and all, jumped the line and proceeded to literally pound the crap out of the 'nazi's'. There were ripped Brownshirts, the weird flag came down and a whole lot of kilts were showing me things I really didn't want to see. In all of this, the cops stood there, no longer looking bored and ignoring the calls for help from the 'nazi's'...the little old Holocaust survivor, a woman who had seen the horrors of hell itself, turned to me and said, "I told you they were assholes, they didn't know their enemies."

All Danny and I could do was enjoy the show...:D

[Elidor]

8. LOL!

That's like poking a pitbull with a sharp stick. You gotta be some kinda stupid to piss off a bunch of Scotts like that. They're lucky they didn't find out what Sgian Dhubs are.

[rasputin1952]

11. It was quite the fiasco...

Those were the days'67-'68 were very interesting...:D

I don't know exactly how many Scots were there, but there were a lot more than the "nazi's", and pipes were on the ground making this weird moaning like sound, while all of this was going on...Jeez, I wish there were mini-cams back then. It got a couple of minutes on the news that night, and from their view, I sure am glad I wasn't wearing a brown shirt that day...:D

I wonder if I can get into the CBS or NBC archives, but I'd have figure out the date that happened...:)

[Elidor]

13. omg! that's worthy of a scene in a movie!

The pipes slowly moaning a discordant wail as their owners unload on the ersatz nazis! :rofl: And you can be certain that is not the first time such a sound has accompanied a brawl...

[rasputin1952]

16. LOL...yep, These Scots were brawlers, and they wer BIG men too...

Hearty breed to be sure...but I can't recall a lot of red hair, but there were quite a few beards. Tell you what, I sure wouldn't want to tick one of these guys off, they just jumped right in like it was an everyday occurence. Danny and both learned that day, that there is a HUGE difference between a skirt and a kilt, no way I'd call these guys out, especially for the way they dress!

I'm sitting here recalling all of this, and grinning like a fool...the more I recall the funnier it gets...I wonder when those "nazi's" got out of the hospital?...

[AshevilleGuy]

27. Hell yeah!! One does NOT fuck with them!!

Silly, stupid nazis... ;-)

I am proud to be somewhat Scottish.

[realisticphish]

12. dirks are where it's at

That's not a knife



THAT's a knife

:D

[Elidor]

15. Yeeowch!

That thing hurts just to look at! It's beautiful in its deadly fahrvergnügen.

/always wanted to use that word in a sentence.

[rasputin1952]

17. Now THAT is not for peeling spuds...

[Canuckistanian]

14. What a great story!

You should post it by itself!

:rofl: :D

[rasputin1952]

19. Aw, thanks...

I've been very fortunate to have had some very interesting times and have gotten to see and do quite a bit.

I grew up in Jamaica, Queens, and there were a lot of Holocaust survivors in our neighborhood. Some were really r4attled by the experience, others seemed to just shuffle it off like a bad cold. The guys who owned the newsstand a couple of blocks from where we lived, were in their 30's, they had lost entire families, one of them, when he would talk about Buchenwald was one of the guys who survived by taking others to their deaths, then removing the bodies after they were gassed. Dear Lord...thinking back, they were so...lonely. Tattooed #'s on their arms and scenes from hell seared into their minds.

One of the great things about NYC, or any big city, is that cultures merge, and when you show that you are trustworthy, people from other cultures will talk to you about things they have seen and done. I cannot fathom how these people coped, it is truly amazing.

[rockymountaindem]

20. Ha! That's fuckin' awesome

But still, I thought the police were supposed to stop that kind of thing. How many fascists were there?

[rasputin1952]

21. I think about 8, maybe 9...

They has a flag lke the nazi flag, red w/a white circle, but instead of a swaztika, the black letters looked more like the SS.

As for the cops, they should have done something to break up the brawl, there were maybe 10-12 of them, and they were actually there to ensure that the "nazi's" didn't get beaten to a pulp, that didn't work out so well. Danny and I left shortly after the melee began, we really didn't want to be caught up in this stuff, we were 16 at the time...the "nazi's" might have been in their 20's-30's, but the Scots, they were in the 30's-40's range, and they were really pissed off, we gave them a lot of room.

The "nazi's" had armbands w/the SS thing too, no hats, brown shirts, black ties, black pants. The Scots were in full regalia, including the little caps that look like Army overseas caps, all different patterns of plaid, and the little bag they use as a "pocket". One of the reasons I rarely wear a tie is because of thaat day, a necktie is a noose w/a different knot.

[unsavedtrash]

22. what a wonderful story.

I wish I could have seen it.

[Casper Alabaster]

26. Someone posted a vid of Nazis

from Michigan, who had a permit to use the Capitol building steps in Lansing. From last year. Wish I would've bookmarked it, the spectacle received lots of media attn. I'm sure the local cops weren't overjoyed at having to protect the wanna-be-nazi=fucktards with their bullhorns, microphones, and little arm-bands from a well-deserved ass-kicking from from the locals of every race who showed up to flip them off. Because of the cops, and YouTube, the whole thing was a Nelson point-n-laff at dumbass wanna-be-nazi-fucktards.
It's always awesome to read of numbered-Jews from the Old Country encountering wanna-bes here. It's usually just chicken-shits spray painting synagogues at night, not dressing up and coming together to get a sweet beat-down. :9

[krispos42]

37. I can see the cops now...

"Oops, dropped my nightstick into the brawl! Sure hope those Scotsmen don't find it!"

I'm conflicted here. On the one side, the cops are suppose to protect free speech from opression. On the other side, Nazis are fucking assholes that should be dragged out into the street and shot.

Hmmm... I guess a beat-down is a happy medium.

[rasputin1952]

40. I've always been a proponent of Free Speech...

But as Sun Tzu said so long ago, "First, above all else, know your enemy."

A wise person will choose to fight in battles they can win, a truly wise person will avoid battle altogether. Oddly enough, even though it turned into a brawl, up until the one guy yelled at the Scots, it was pretty peaceful, most people looked irritated that the guy w/the Bullhorn was making so much inane noise and messing w/the music. All things considered, these guys had the Right to sqauwk, and most assuredly they were an irritation and anyone could have walked away from them, laughed at them, (some were), but back then, I'm sure some of the people in the parade, and those in the crowd watching, were vets from WWII...I'm willing to bet some of the cops were too, it wasn't that far from the war's end back then...Nazi's and Commies were bait and were baiting.

Just like Phelps uses Free Speech to spew his hatered, these guys were to...they stepped over the line though when they threatened annihalation of of the Jews and the Scots...Funny, those were the only two groups the nazi's mentioned while we were there, and the Scots hadn't done a thing to provoke a fight, they were just playing and marching, the nazi's tossed out a smackdown and got the raw end of the deal.

[rman]

38. those "assholes" do enable real nazis

They do tend to support officials who propose nazi-like policies.

[rasputin1952]

41. Yes they do...just like in Germany, they think if they run the party line

long enough and loud enough, they will receive some "power" when the party takes over. It rarely works that way, those that do the shoe work are the cannon fodder for those that are really shaking things up.

When I was in the Army, I was asked by a couple of fellow GI's if I wanted to join an "inside" nazi group...I declined, then called the IG's office. I didn't see those guys after that, took about 4 days, but the IG looks at stuff like that as subversive, and with a sharp eye too.

[Clark2008]

43. LOL!!

Those were REAL Scottish men.

Never get into a barroom brawl with a man who drinks a fifth for breakfast.

That was a great story!! Thanks!

[Richard Steele]

44. "I told you they were assholes, they didn't know their enemies."

[Swamp Rat]

7. Ask the daily 'Nazi saluters' like: Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Bill O'reilly, Rash Limpballs...

if you can get their toungues out of Bushler's ass for a moment.

[mondo joe]

9. That's the standard for all speech - it depends on the circumstance. NT

[Lex]

10. There is a "time, place, and manner" restriction on all free speech.

The most famous example is that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.

[uppityperson]

18. It depends like the FIRE! fire example given previously by others.

[leftofthedial]

23. yes

giving money to a political candidate should not be free speech though.

[Casper Alabaster]

24. It says a lot more about about the Sieg Heiler

than the Sieg Heilee.
According to the article, "A City Council (Santa Cruz, CA) policy states that people who "interrupt and refuse to keep quiet or take a seat when ordered to do so by the presiding officer or otherwise disrupt the proceedings of the council" may be removed from a meeting.

Norse said he would appeal the judge's decision".
He wasn't arrested for the salute, he was arrested for not leaving after twice being asked. I understand Mr. Norse is a homeless-rights activist, and was more than likely making a sarcastic gesture. It doesn't seem that he's some kind of hate-monger.
For actual hate-mongers, the nazi salute is free-speech in the U.S., and the government can't jail the idiot giving it, but neither does an employer have to keep such an idiot on their payroll, at least I hope.
Elsewhere in the world, the nazi salute seems to be an entry-level requirement for civil service and policy meetings...

[Make7]

25. Perhaps

- Make7

[Casper Alabaster]

28. In all fairness, that's not a Nazi salute,

that's the Bellamy salute... from wiki: The Bellamy salute is the hand gesture described by Francis Bellamy to accompany his Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute." It was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the "National School Celebration of Columbus Day"
Wiki further explains, The initial military salute was soon replaced with a hand-on-heart gesture, followed by the extension of the arm as described by Bellamy. Because of the similarity of this part of the salute to the Hitler salute, the Bellamy salute was widely replaced around 1942 with the modern gesture of placing the hand over the heart without raising the arm. In 1943, the Daughters of the American Revolution, initially resistant to the change, endorsed the hand-on-heart gesture during the Pledge. <1>
My illustration was meant to refer to contemporary instances that are more likely to coincide with the commonly understood hate-mongering nature of a nazi salute, than something once done by American children in innocence in a completely different context. For a brief overview on the salute, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_salute

[Make7]

29. It's a Roman salute

Roman salute

The Roman salute is the right hand held flat, palm down and fingers closed, and the right arm raised at an angle of about 45 degrees. It was used by the Roman Republic, by armies of the Middle East (even before being adopted by the Romans) and South America at various times. It was also the historical civilian salute of the United States, from about 1787 to 1934, known since 1892 as the Bellamy salute.

When the Nazi party of Germany adopted the Roman salute from the Italian fascists, President of the United States Franklin Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the heart as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States. This was done when Congress officially adopted the Flag Code on June 22, 1942.

Because of its associations with fascism, the Roman salute is now rarely used outside of neo-Nazi groups. There are several exceptions; one is the Republic of China (Taiwan), where the salute is still used during the inaugurations of government officials. The salute is also still used by some Palestinian militant groups, the Basij militia in Iran, and some Maronite movements in Lebanon. It is also known to be used by the Tamil separatist organization, the LTTE, while saluting their leader Velupillai Prabhakaran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute#Roman_salute

- Make7

[Neoma]

30. I love facts like that.

[Casper Alabaster]

32. Succinct is cool.

Here's the salient point: "Because of its associations with fascism, the Roman salute is now rarely used outside of neo-Nazi groups. There are several exceptions; The salute is also still used by some Palestinian militant groups, the Basij militia in Iran, and some Maronite movements in Lebanon. It is also known to be used by the Tamil separatist organization, the LTTE, while saluting their leader Velupillai Prabhakaran.
I still don't buy any kind of similarity in context between the pic you posted and the ones I did.

[Make7]

33. But apparently it is not enough.

My point is that the Roman salute pre-dates the rise of National Socialism in Germany, therefore instances of persons using the Roman salute are not necessarily related in some way to National Socialism or fascism in general.

The Republic of China (Taiwan) uses the Roman salute during the inaugurations of government officials. Does that have anything to do with National Socialism?

The Roman salute was being used by armies in the Middle East long before Hitler was born. Posting this picture...



... and calling that a Nazi salute fails to take into account the larger historical perspective of that salute.

- Make7

[Casper Alabaster]

34. I dig.

I'm a total n00b, so I have to back up what I'm sayin, but do you really think those pictures are without any contemporary political/military context whatsoever?

[Make7]

36. In my opinion...

... if one wishes to discuss the political/military significance of militant groups in the Middle East (or anywhere else for that matter), the from of salute that they use is probably not one of the more important issues related to the subject. The implied association to Nazism based on a gesture is not a particularly persuasive argument. There are legitimate criticisms that can be made against groups such as Hezbollah; the way they have chosen to salute each other is simply not one of them.

BTW - Welcome to DU.

- Make7

[Casper Alabaster]

39. Thanks for the welcome,

and I think I'm going to just continue gathering as much information as I can.
The Nazi salute is most definitely free-speech, as we can see.
No Nazi salute here::smoke:

[Casper Alabaster]

31. That's not a nazi salute...

That's a pledge, not a fatwa. Here's a fatwa!

[Clark2008]

42. Yep - despite the judge's ruling.

So is waving the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia (what most seem to think is the Confederate Flag) and sporting a shaved head and posting signs on interstates and protesting peacefully.

Some of it we like, some of it we hate. But I love free speech.

[Nye Bevan]

45. Yes, of course

But just because something is free speech does not mean that you can automatically do it during a city council meeting.

Yelling "Bush is an asshole" is also free speech but I would not expect people to be allowed to do this during council meetings.

Someone in the audience doing a Nazi salute would be annoying and distracting to the person sitting behind them.

[rasputin1952]

46. One of the great principles of Free Speech however, is precisely being

able to say things that prove unpopular or distracting.

The case comes down to, (at least IMO), whether there was a threat involved. I think that people being disruptive by threat should most certainly be removed, things like this tend to become threatening as the offender becomes increasingly hostile.

Challenging authority is essential to a Free People, but threats are an entirely different matter.