Teens Charged As Adults In Sex Assault

[The Straight Story]

Teens Charged As Adults In Sex Assault
4 Accused Of Assaulting Teammate With Broom, Hockey Stick

TAMPA, Fla. -- Four Tampa middle-school students are being charged as adults in the alleged sexual assault on a classmate in a school locker room.

The teens are accused of holding down a 13-year-old flag-football teammate and assaulting him with a broomstick and hockey stick. The victim told investigators the boys had harassed and bullied him for nearly two months.

State attorney's office spokeswoman Pam Bondi said Wednesday that each boy faces four counts of sexual battery, stemming from "multiple incidents on different dates."

Each count carries a maximum penalty of 30 years in prison.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/19645254/detail.html

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. Good

Let the kids rot in jail. Little sociopaths.

[Pamela Troy]

2. Feel Better Now?

Feel like a big tuff righteous citizen?

Do your own sins look reassuringly tiny compared to theirs?

They are fourteen and fifteen years old.

Does the idea of them being passed around like boxes of candy in prison make you feel good?

[lies and propaganda]

3. they ananlly raped a kid with sticks

My sins dont even resemble that disusing shit.

But way to make light of a huge situation just to prove your lame point.

and the irony that you think RAPISTS will get RAPED in jail.. irony fail

[paulsby]

43. did they? you know this how?

not saying they did NOT, but i see no mention in the article that they anally raped the other kid.

that's an assumption to be made when you hear sexual assault and broomstick in the same sentence, but it's not NECESSARILY the case.

just saying, unless you are privy to other sources, i wouldn't make assumptions like that.

there are ways to sexually assault somebody with a broomstick that do not involve anal rape, so from whence did you gather the evidence necessary to make such a conclusion?

[Chulanowa]

48. uh... Say what, now?

Are you seriously arguing that SEXUAL ASSAULT WITH A BROOMSTICK (and hockey stick!) against a thirteen year-old is okay if it wasn't anal penetration?

because that's the words you're using here

[paulsby]

58. cut the strawmen crap

i did not say it's "ok" to sexually assault anybody in any manner.

get frigging real.

what i said was i saw no mention in the article of ANAL RAPE.

i said i saw "sexual assault" and the means was "a broomstick".

that IMPLIES anal rape, but it does not equal anal rape.

so, i simply asked a question - what source gave you the information that anal rape was involved or did you imply it from the instrument used?

like i said, it's a reasonable assumption,. but it's still an assumption of items not in evidence FROM THE MENTIONED ARTICLE.

i work in a world of evidence and facts, accusations, and perception

but i don't make unqualified statements of fact w/o having a stronger basis than an inference like that.

so spare me the strawmen. i am making a point about the underlying facts and the basis for your assumptions. i made NO statement whatsoever about morality, and your post is a slander of my position

for the record, sexual assault is wrong. i've investigated scores of sexual assaults. i've helped put rapists and sexual predators away in prison. i recently investigated a case where a child sexual predator got a life sentence. i care about sexual assault.

ok?

[Chulanowa]

69. It's not a straw man

My point is, you're missing the forest for the trees. Does it matter whether the article says they assaulted his colon with the things? Seriously, does it matter? Here you are, arguing the point as if it were the most important thing here, when it's not. Furthermore, even while the article doesn't directly say that's what happens, it is what happened. It's called logic and deductive reasoning, Paulsby. Sort of like how we knew that Dr. Tiller was murdered by an anti-choice fanatic Christian, despite the initial reports saying nothing about who the perp may have been. You thus appear to be rushing to these little motherfucker's defense with claims that "maybe it wasn't that bad, we don't know"

Yes. Yes we do know. because 15 year old boys aren't going to get that creative with sexually assaulting another kid with a motherfucking broomstick.

And I just have to ask... when you write stuff as part of your apparent profession, do you capitalize? Or are we all being treated to another "I'm on the internet so my job is relevant to the topic of the moment" sort of thing?

[paulsby]

71. it IS a strawman

i never said sexual assault was ok. you said i did say or imply that

i was speaking to a point of evidence, not a moral thang.

hth

[Chulanowa]

122. It was a rape

http://video.tbo.com/m/22257513/middle-school-sexual-assault.htm
http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article1001629.ece

You can put down that water you're carrying now.

[LostinVA]

55. It says right in the OP that they sodomized the boy, after torturing him

[paulsby]

65. no, it doesn't

please quote.

the words used are "sexual assault"

[LostinVA]

66. Yes, it does -- wtf do you think that means?

[paulsby]

70. so you admit you are wrong

you just claimed the word 'sodomy' was used, and when i called you on it, you backtracked.

people often READ into articles with their preconceptions.

thanks for proving my point

[LostinVA]

77. No, I didn't admit anything of teh kind -- it's being called a rape

Which, since the young man doesn't have a vagina, will be sodomy. I didn't prove any ridiculous point.

[paulsby]

81. false

1) YOU CLAIMED THE WORD SODOMY WAS USED IN THE ARTICLE. and refuse to admit you are wrong

typical.

the internet. where know it alls can never just say "my bad"

note also that rape can (and i've been involved in prosecution of such a case) involve , for instance, unlawful penetration of the MOUTH, not only the anus.

but since you clearly don't know what you are talking about and don't have the intellectual honesty to admit the article did NOT refer to the word "sodomy", why should i expect you to grok this?

[LostinVA]

84. Are you on shrooms or something???

They said he was RAPES/SEXUALLY ASSAULTED, which means he was sodomized, since he does NOT have a vagina.

Why are you trying to threadjack this?

[paulsby]

88. i have no idea whether he was sodomized or not

i know that the claim was made that the Article USED the WORD sodomy. and when i called same claimant on that false claim, it was backtrack city.

i also know that males have been RAPED by stuffing objects in their MOUTH, for instance (i testified in one such case), so rape/sexual assault of a male does not AUTOMATICALLY MEAN anal penetration, assuming there was penetration

the article never referred to ANAL RAPE or ANAL PENETRATION

it was an assumption

i simply asked the poster who made the ANAL RAPE claim if he had specific knowledge of this allegation, or if he was INFERRING.

clearly, based on all the backtracking and obfuscation, it was an INFERENCE

a REASONABLE one, but an inference/assumption nonetheless

[LostinVA]

94. Yes, yes was sodomized -- he DOESN'T HAVE A VAGINA

End of partcipating in your faux "argumment."

[paulsby]

101. penetration of the mouth

can also qualify as sodomy. and rape.

furthermore, SODOMY wasn't used in the article. sexual assault was.

so, your false statements don't help

hth

[LostinVA]

104. I know -- sodomy, which is what I said

[uppityperson]

133. He was sexually assaulted by putting a hockey stick in his mouth?

Is this what you are implying was a possibility?

[WI_DEM]

165. come on get real it's pretty clear they are talking sodomy here.

[uppityperson]

132. Maybe they just made him masturbate with the stick. See? (sarcasm)

:sarcasm: just in case you take me seriously

[TrogL]

64. I'm confused - what exactly did you think they did?

I'm not sure I'd be real happy having a broomstick shoved down my throat - lots of tender tissue there to get damaged, if not teeth.

Full disclosure: I was bullied endlessly in junior high and high school, culminating in a swarming incident in a washroom that ended rather abruptly when I started kicking people in the balls. I, of course, got in trouble, not the bullies - the darlings of the administration 'cause they were football stars.

[paulsby]

67. i don't know specifically WHAT they did

that's my point. i'm looking for a PC certification online. the terms "sexual assault" and broomstick and male victim, IMPLY anal rape (on a woman they don't, because there is another commonly used orifice so to speak).

you are correct that, for example, sticking a broomstick in somebody's mouth in the course of certain assaults can qualify as "sexual assault".

so can striking or rubbing the genitalia.

also, attempting to, but not completing the act of anal rape (iow not penetrating) would qualify as sexual assault

but what is implied is not the same as what i know or think.

i simply asked the poster if he had any evidence to believe there had been an ANAL RAPE besides the ASSUMPTION

it IS a reasonable assumption, but that's not the same as knowing this was the alleged crime.

and i am trying to find out IF there are statements about anal rape that the poster was privy to

hth

[Javaman]

74. You like to parse words don't you? so you think simple assault would get them 30 years?

I don't think they were doing the limbo with that broomstick to get them 30 years, do you?

Grow up. Sexual assault it news speak for rape. really, how old are you?

argue all you want but your redefining what the scope of the intent of the story, is amusing to say the least. And amusing in that train wreck sort of way of trying justify a lame position because you painted yourself into a corner.

[paulsby]

91. i;m not trying to justify anything

i am just trying to confirm a fact pattern, one that was clearly not in evidence in the original article, and that assumptions were made.

that's become abundantly clear after all the backpedaling, obfuscations, strawmen and assumptions

of course, god forbid somebody could have been mature enough to say "i inferred anal rape when i saw BROOMSTICK, male, and SEXUAL ASSAULT"

an entirely reasonable assumption, however AN ASSUMPTION.

[LostinVA]

102. I saw no " backpedaling, obfuscations, strawmen and assumptions"

And, I read THREE articles on the incident before I posted.

Sexual assualt on a male cannot have vaginal penetration, so it's "sodomy." He was held down ans sexually assualted. Not assualted. Not molested. Every article I read called it rape.

Please quit threadjacking.

[paulsby]

and i keep trying to explain to you

that there is more than one orifice on the male.

that rape/penetration of a male CAN include (and be limited to ) ORAL penetration.

that i saw no mention of PENETRATIOn/RAPE in the original article anyway. the term used was "sexual assault"

considering it's a NEWSPAPER article, i realize that that could mean any # of things.

newspaper articles suck in their vagueness. i was trying to get more info

hth

[Dogtown]

140. What's wrong with you?

Seriously, you're acting very badly and don't seem to have a valid point beyond stirring things up.

[Javaman]

144. man, you really need to find the clue phone fast, it's ringing only for you.

you are making an argument out of something that is completely stupid.

it stated the kid was sexually assaulted with a broom stick. given the very recent history of police, gangs, and general asshole morons out there, I think we can all reasonably assume at this point that the inferred concept is anally raped.

So please. you are parsing words and for what reason? I haven't the foggiest notion.

Are you trying to defend these little turds? are you trying to maintain some sort of journalistic integrity? are you playing devils advocate? or are you just trying to create controversy were there isn't any? I pick the latter.

Get a grip. Grow up and stop this non-sense. Like the other poster said, stop hijacking posts. It's distracting, infantile and really a waste of energy that distracts from the OP.

Sigh, I have to block you now. only because you seem to like to waste peoples time with really really useless points that amount to nothing. You have a lot of energy and passion but sadly it's really poorly directed.

[TorchTheWitch]

163. could also be the legal definition of rape

In many states the legal definition of "rape" is only penatration with a penis... any penatration with some other appendage or object is the legal definition of "sexual assault".

This was an issue in the Duke lacrosse case as there was an uproar when it was found that the alleged victim admitted she did not know if she was legally "raped" or not because she was not completely sure if what she alleged she was penatrated with was a penis or an object because she was not in a position to see exactly what it was.

I'm guessing the media in this boy's case is using the "sexual assault" term as it is probably the legal term that defines rape as penatration only with a penis and why the criminals in this case are being charged with sexual assault rather than rape.

I think these laws that differentiate rape from sexual assault by the appendage/object used are absurd... to the victim it hardly matters what exactly they were penatrated with.

Personally, I think that arguing whether or not this boy was or wasn't anally penetrated with an object is going so far out on a limb as to be clinging to the very edge of a leaf.

[WildEyedLiberal]

100. No, you are WRONG

Criminal Sexual Assault is DEFINED as "sexual penetration by force or threat of force." Key word: PENETRATION. So no, "rubbing the genitalia" is NOT criminal sexual assault. It would be criminal sexual abuse, not assault. That these boys are charged with sexual ASSAULT tells us EXACTLY what happened, and it wasn't rubbing a broomstick against the other kid's mouth.

Edit: That definition also precludes that the broomstick could have been inserted into the mouth. The definition is "sexual penetration." SEXUAL. A sex organ or orifice MUST be involved.

So just in case you don't get it:

Forced oral sex (penis-in-mouth) = sexual assault

Broomstick in anus = sexual assault

Penis in anus = sexual assault

Forced broomstick in mouth = no sexual organs = assualt, NOT sexual assault

[TransitJohn]

135. Grabbing breast

when such action is unwanted = sexual assault, with no penetration.

[WildEyedLiberal]

139. Legally, that would be sexual abuse

I don't know the laws in Florida, where this story took place. But in Illinois, criminal sexual assault is defined exactly as I posted. Other sexual offenses, such as grabbing a breast or rubbing genitals or anything not involving penetration, would be sexual abuse, which is still a felony, but not as severe as sexual assault.

[Dogtown]

145. "Sexual battery" in Georgia

Legalize differs depending on the jurisdiction. W/o the benefits of the actual police report or court transcripts, I think it's pretty safe to say the victim was raped.

So, do you have anything to actually add to this discussion, or did you just stop by to pee in the pool?

[TransitJohn]

146. Pfffft.

Obvious you don't want any discussion. Later hater.

[Dogtown]

159. That answers my question

Nothing but attitude and bad manners.
No substance whatever.

[TrogL]

154. Why even bother to make the distinction

I still have nightmares about that incident and it was over 20 years ago.

[ellenfl]

73. FYI - IN FLORIDA IT'S NOT CALLED RAPE, IT'S CALLED SEXUAL ASSAULT. carry on. eom

[LostinVA]

80. It is in most places now, because that covers more "incidents" than "rape"

[lies and propaganda]

141. well, it doesnt say they beat him with it

so i doubt its a crazy conclusion to come up with.

and please enlighten me how you sexually assault a man with a broomstick if not rectally? orally? That would be just assault.. in his ear?

seriously i think you are the one grasping at straws, not me.

[Pamela Troy]

78. You think they WON'T get raped in jail?

[LostinVA]

85. They won't raped there any more than in Juvie

Because they won't be housed with adults.

And, what does that have to do with the poster's sins?

[lies and propaganda]

143. No,. but i also didnt act like they rape THEY commited

were no big deal as you did.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

Dupe

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

4. Keep them in juvie until they're 18 and send them to grown up prison then

Sorry, but I have ZERO sympathy for rapists.

I think you rape a person and you should never be free again. That's it.

[FLAprogressive]

19. for some DUers, someone 17 years, 364 days, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds old is completely innocent

because they're "juveniles".

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

22. Yeah, and that's just absurd

This isn't "boys will be boys" type shit, this was a sadistic rape. I don't want them roaming around...ever.

[LostinVA]

57. I know -- a sociopath is a socipath at any age

They aren't wired right.

[WeDidIt]

5. They committed an adult crime

They knew what they were doing to the kid.

Now it's time to pay an adult price for their adult crimes.

[Mike Daniels]

23. Basically hard to say this was anything other than a deliberate and malicious act

I see the case for cutting people slack in terms of juvie vs. prison when it's property crimes or perhaps manslaughter/negligent homicide.

To do something like this though suggests that there's something pretty ingrained inside the synapses that's not going to disappear after 5 or 6 years in juvenile hall. IOW, this wasn't some prank gone out of control.

I have a hard time seeing any circumstances that could allow for leniency in sentencing in this case.

[Pamela Troy]

79. So you don't think any distinction should be made between child offenders and adult offenders?

[LostinVA]

106. I personally don't think there should be for certain premeditated crimes

Including rape and murder. I think both should get life in prison without parole.

[WeDidIt]

113. Most of the time, yes.

Cases of rape and murder, especially gang-rape, not so much depending upon age. Pre-teens, I can see cutting slack. Teenagers? Nope. Juvie until they are 18 and then adult prison for the rest of the sentence as an adult.

[Mike Daniels]

119. I don't see how in this case it makes a difference in terms of penalty

I think the act alone speaks of a certain depravity (whether in a child or adult) that goes beyond one's age or suppossed inability to comprehend your actions or their consequences.

People who do this crap aren't "mixed up" or "confused" but rather have something wrong in their brain that they aren't going to grow out of or be rehabed out of. In all likelihood, someone who does this once is likely to carry out similar conduct throughout their life.

If an adult did this to someone they'd probably be behind bars for a good portion of their lives. Just because a kid did it doesn't mean he should be allowed to walk out in 6 years or so and move on while the victim spends years in mental and physical therapy in order to cope with the experience.

Put the perps in juvenile for the rest of their childhood and ship them to prison from there to serve out the balance of their term. In all honesty, the longer someone who can do this is off the streets the better off society is as a whole.

[mamaleah]

183. Are you saying they didn't know what they did is wrong?

Generally juvies are punished with lighter penalties because it is thought they might not quite understand what they did was wrong.

Do you really think that teenagers do not know that sodomizing someone with a broomstick is wrong?

Should we let them out at 18 and "wait and see"? Maybe see if they rape someone else? How many people do they need to harm before you think they know what they are doing?

[ellenfl]

7. do i hear a 'boys will be boys' in there somewhere?

they should know right from wrong . . . especially at 14 and 15 years. the only reason i would agree with you is if their parents were sent to prison instead. they are ultimately responsible for their kids being monsters. i hope your kids have better parents.

ellen fl

[Pamela Troy]

82. No, you don't. Unless you decide to ascribe it to me.

Do you like the idea of a fourteen and fifteen year old being gangbanged in prison?

[Dogtown]

114. You brought that up

No one here is hoping for any children to be raped anywhere. Apparently YOU have an unhealthy interesting the subject.

You've insulted several respected posters. What's *your* just punishment for these miscreants?

[uppityperson]

134. Why do you keep accusing others of desiring prison rape?

You seem to be the only one who is talking about that

[LanternWaste]

187. As per your own line of questioning...

As per your own line of questioning... "where did it imply in the article that they would be gang-banged in prison?" Or is it simply that (and I find this more likely) those fits of spurious literalism and inferences indicted upon others by you are not relevant when you yourself are guilty of it?

Six of one and half a dozen of the other you see...

[TahitiNut]

9. Congratulate them. They chose behavior that EMANCIPATED themselves.

It's interesting that your post immediately conjured up a reference to prison rape.

:eyes:

[pacalo]

61. Oh, my. Your subject line brilliantly says it all. I agree.

[Pamela Troy]

86. What do you think is likely to happen to a fourteen or fifteen year old put in prison?

Should there be no legal distinction between adolescent offenders and adult offenders? If a fourteen year old "consents" to sex, does he or she "emancipate" themself from childhood?

[LostinVA]

108. A 15-year-old rapist is a rapist, not a misunderstood kid

The real question is why you treat sexual assault against a minor so lightly.

[TahitiNut]

109. That's a DIFFERENT problem. Fix that problem separately.

It's too fucking bad those malicious sociopaths didn't think of that, huh? Tough shit.

The idea that these sociopaths should escape prison because it's just too harsh is total, abject nonsense.

Climb on the Prison Reform bandwagon ... incarcerate these despicable sociopaths in an isolated wing ... but the brain-damaged notion that a GANG of sociopaths who REPEATEDLY committed ANAL RAPE on a 13-year-old should be treated as "poor little misguided children" is total crap.

[Javaman]

147. Sadly, people who commit crimes generally don't think...

1)they will be caught. because if they did, they wouldn't do the crime.

2)rarely if ever think of the consequences of their actions.

Given the nature of the crime these kids committed, I do believe they should be tried as adults. Just because they are kids, doesn't mean that their actions are any less heinous.

[Coyote_Bandit]

10. Ummmm......

These perps are bullies. Older than their victim. Old enough to know that what they did was wrong. They crossed some significant boundaries. Even if sent to jail they are going to be older than many of the other kids in juvy.

Send the little fuckers to jail. Mandate a successful siint in counseling before releasing them. And then mandate significant follow-up. If they are ever again found to do something similiar then lock 'em up for life.

There is no reason to tolerate, accept or excuse such behavior.

[Pamela Troy]

87. Ummmmmm....You DO understand the difference between saying,

prosecute these kids, and saying "prosecute them as adults" --- right?

[walldude]

99. Do you? If convicted they will be put in a juvenile facility until they reach adult

age. They don't put 14 year olds in "prison". That's number one. Number two your defense of these "kids" is the most fucking disgusting thing I have read on DU in quite awhile. Being the father of a mildly autistic son who is prone to being picked on I have a bit of experience in this area, and you haven't a clue of what you speak of. A 14 year or 15 year old who shoves a hockey stick or a broom stick up the ass of another child is not "just a kid" and certainly knew exactly what they were doing.

[dgibby]

14. What's your solution?

[TahitiNut]

15. Probably a "time out" and no dessert.

:eyes:

[dgibby]

24. You crack me up! Thanks, I needed a good laugh today!

:fistbump: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[olegramps]

142. Little too harsh. No desert would do.

[mamaleah]

184. No dessert? You barbarian!

Cruel!

They are only juveniles!

:D

[nichomachus]

42. It's time to look forward -- not back

We have real problems to face and shouldn't be concerned with what these kids did in the past.

:sarcasm:

(I wasn't going to use the sarcasm thingie, but I figured I'd save a lot of bandwidth here if I did.)

[Pamela Troy]

89. Prosecute juveniles as juveniles.

[Butch350]

20. Did the kid they tortured feel good?

What should they do to the bullies? Give them a strong talking to? So they can say, "see, we can break the law, we're just kids and the law won't do crap to us".

[Pamela Troy]

90. No, they should not merely give the bullies "a strong talking to."

They should prosecute them as juveniles.

Anything unclear about this?

[LostinVA]

112. So, two years in juvie for multiple rape, so they can gte out and rape again

Which they will.

[VelmaD]

33. does the idea of them...

raping another younger kind while they're in juvie make YOU feel good?

Most adult prisons, when required to take prisoners under age 18, house them seperately from the adult population. I know this, I worked in corrections in Texas for 10 years. I'm not saying they'd be 100 percent safe in prison - they themselves have already proven the under 18s can be vicious predators, but they wouldn't be thrown into the general population.

[Pamela Troy]

92. Nope. Which is why I think rape should be prevented in both adult prisons

and juvenile detention.

[Ignis]

37. Nice job with the Bitch-and-Run.

It's much easier to attack other posters personally and then ditch the thread, isn't it? Saves all that time having to support your arguments.

:thumbsdown:

[Pamela Troy]

93. I'm right here.

Got an argument to offer?

[Ignis]

153. Hey, welcome back!

Here's one: Please explain in detail the world in which you live. It obviously involves 15-year-old jocks who don't deserve to do hard time for gang-raping a kid with hockey sticks, so I'm quite interested to learn more about it.

I'm not a big Law-and-Order type, but I'm really scratching my head to come up with what sort of argument could be made that these 15-year-old rapists didn't know what they were doing. Enlighten me.

[Dappleganger]

40. They are old enough to know better

I agree, let them be charged as adults.

[Pamela Troy]

95. So if the fourteen year old had "consented" to sex with an adult,

you'd be firmly opposed to charging the adult, right?

[LostinVA]

116. That is a total strawman, which you know

[WildEyedLiberal]

41. Well, my sins are pretty tiny compared to theirs

I've never raped anyone.

I was a teenager not too long ago, and I damn sure knew that rape was wrong. So do they. I have NO sympathy.

[Pamela Troy]

97. How very commendable of you.

[WildEyedLiberal]

118. More commendable than defending rapists

Which is what you're doing all over this thread.

[mzmolly]

53. Their victim

was only 13.

[Pamela Troy]

98. And that makes them adults?

[olegramps]

151. No, but if convicted it makes them guilty of a heinous crime.

I believe that there is a consensus of opinion that certain crimes can not be excused because the perpetrators are minors.

This was a vicious assault that demands stern measures. It has a very disturbing sexual content that goes far beyond normal behavior and is sadistic. I would be very interested in seeing a psychological evaluation of these youngsters and a detailed history of their home life. Something is radically wrong.

[mzmolly]

164. No, but apparently it makes the child who was brutally raped

less deserving of justice. :sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

177. Seriously

:wtf:

[mzmolly]

182. Agreed.

Sheesh!

[dgibby]

161. Concern for the victim is not in evidence from her posts, just the perps.

[mzmolly]

170. Odd

to empathize more with the rapists, than the victim.

[LostinVA]

54. I'll second her -- good, they are sociopaths and need to be kept from society

"Normal" people don't do stuff like this. Sociopaths do.

And yes, my own sins do look, and are, very very very tiny compared to theirs.

They won't be "passed around like candy" in an adult prison.

[Pamela Troy]

103. What makes you think they won't be raped in prison?

I have no idea whether or not they qualify as "sociopaths." Neither do you, unless you actually know them personally. Do you?

Whether or not they are sociopaths, they are definitely not adults, and should not be tried as adults.

[LostinVA]

117. What makes you think they won't be raped in Juvie?

They won't be housed with adults in prison.

Well yes, they are sociopaths. People that aren't don't take glee from torturing and raping another living creature for several months.

[Dogtown]

96. Damn

You're just looking to pick a fight.

Their victim, however you choose to pick at any nits downstream, will live with the memory and shame of this assault for the rest of his life.

Can't say I feel much empathy for the little monsters that did this.

The poster you've jumped on DID NOT celebrate rape of anyone, past or future.
And, just in case you'd like to pull that outraged accusatory crap with me, I've never sexually assaulted anyone, nor have I ever wished anyone to be assaulted in that fashion.

You owe the poster you addressed an apology for a nasty, uncalled for attack.

You owe the rest of us an apology, for trashing up the board.

[Pamela Troy]

105. I have no intention of apologizing for objecting to two teenagers being tried as adults.

[LostinVA]

120. But you do owe an apology for a personal attack, which is against DU rules

I agree with Dogtown -- you just want a fight.

[Dogtown]

121. Somehow I knew you wouldn't

Clearly too self-righteous and self-absorbed. I'm very glad that the decision won't be up to you.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

131. Thank you

[Dogtown]

138. !di nada!

That was truly bizarre.

[brendan120678]

6. Those poor, poor teens...

They've never had a chance in life! It's the economy! Nobody ever taught them right from wrong!
All they need is a stern lecture, and maybe a few months of therapy. After that, they'll never be bad again.

[ellenfl]

8. you forgot the sarcasm emotie . . . didn't you? eom

[brendan120678]

11. Is one really needed? Really?

Are people that dense?

I'll go back and add one if I get multiple responses flaming me.

[dgibby]

16. Anyone who can't recognize the sarcasm in that post needs training wheels on their keyboard!

[ellenfl]

60. there is always someone who doesn't. you should know that by now. eom

[Javaman]

75. Best replay ever! LOL nt

[Pamela Troy]

107. Where did I say any of this?

[Oregone]

12. Whats wrong with this?

They are just emulating the most revered members of our society: soldiers. Can't kids have heroes anymore?

[chrisa]

26. WTF?

(Facepalm)

[Oregone]

27. I just don't see how these children will grow up and effectively work in an American military prison

without practice. The enhanced interrogators of tomorrow are bred today.

[proteus_lives]

28. Ignorant.

"They are just emulating the most revered members of our society: soldiers. Can't kids have heroes anymore?"

Great use of the broadbrush there, any other groups you wish to give a kick to?

[Oregone]

30. I also don't like puppies

It most certainly says something about the heart of a society when you find these atrocious acts of abuse within government ranks, as well as trickled down to children. We have state sponsored torture, tyranny, and sodomy. Should it be of any surprise when our own sick citizens also engage in this behavior?

[proteus_lives]

35. Sorry to burst your bubble.

But shit like this happens everywhere, always has. Always will, because some people are psychos with no empathy. Who is to blame for this? The "kids" who raped and tortured that boy.

Your half-assed attempt at "making a point" utterly fails when you say an entire group is responsible for the actions of a few.

[Oregone]

38. Well, I disagree

I think societies foster detrimental behaviors like this within their citizens, directly or indirectly. It also has to do with poverty, education, world-views, leadership (macro & micro), and a variety of other social variables--all spheres that are defined and controlled by the social engine. Some societies are sicker than others, and produce, through a variety of different mechanism, more individuals who lack empathy and the tools to refuse to participate in this action. This does happen everywhere, and always, but most definitely not at the same rate.

[JANdad]

34. Hey...you know what...FUCK YOU

I was a soldier and a cop in the military and I NEVER harmed ANYONE...

Go fuck yourself!

[Oregone]

36. Of course you didn't

How could anyone so ambivalent and in control on an internet forum ever become emotionally driven and inflict harm upon someone under their control in real life?

[WildEyedLiberal]

45. What is WITH you? Are you accusing the poster of being a rapist?

Because he was in the Army? Really? Why don't you stop with the coy bullshit and just come out and say that you think all soldiers are rapists, which is obviously what you're really itching to say?

Rapists are despicable. So are your posts in this thread.

[Oregone]

51. Well if that isn't a straw man.

Look, I am clearly pointing out that their action is no different than that which has been sponsored and endorsed by the United States government at a certain point in time, and action which will not be fully investigated or prosecuted. These same acts were performed by people who we are all told are the "cream of the crop" of our society, ordered by the very political establishment that runs the country. So what I am essentially asking...in such a society where sickness is so evident at the upper echelons, is there any wonder of sickness and abuse being everywhere else?

No, I was not calling the poster a rapist. I am sorry you were so angry that you read that into my posts. Anger is a terrible thing, you know. I was rather admiring the self-control that they reported in real-life and illustrated on an internet forum

[WildEyedLiberal]

130. "Admiring his self control"?

Do you really expect ANYONE not to see through your thinly-veiled malice? IOW, he told you to FUCK OFF in all caps, you cluck-cluck about his lost control, and imply that, of course, someone so volatile probably took out his control on others. You absolutely implied that he was a rapist, and your continued twisting-the-knife is just sick.

"Look, I am clearly pointing out that their action is no different than that which has been sponsored and endorsed by the United States government at a certain point in time, and action which will not be fully investigated or prosecuted."

Except that's not even CLOSE to what you said. You said "oh, these boys are emulating their heroes: soldiers." NOTHING about the "United States government" or the "upper echelons ordering torture and abuse." Nope, just "emulating soldiers." Soldiers = rapists.

I'm used to such bullshit faux-lefty generalizations on DU, but you crossed a HUGE line when you accused the other poster of having the same rapist mentality that you falsely attribute to, evidently, the entire armed forces. Seriously, you're sick.

[Oregone]

150. "when you accused the other poster"

But I didn't. You couldn't even water-board that out of me, so forget about it. You are definitely putting the wagon in front of the horses with that thought, and its running out of control down the hill.


"of course, someone so volatile probably took out his control on others."

You said it, not me.


Look, I don't think ALL soldiers are rapists. Clearly, they haven't all been ordered to yet. Though, if you ask a couple female soldiers about it, they may assert that orders don't need to be given.

Regardless, this is just another sign of a sick society.

[proteus_lives]

155. You don't have a point, do you?

"Look, I don't think ALL soldiers are rapists. Clearly, they haven't all been ordered to yet. Though, if you ask a couple female soldiers about it, they may assert that orders don't need to be given."

You're just acting like a kid and trying to provoke people.


Have you actually ever met a soldier or vet? Its amazing that you think smearing a group of people is ok. Switch out soldier with black, gay, women, asian or whatever. It's no different.

[Oregone]

160. I apologize if you think I am smearing a group

Id rather be smearing the entire society. From the government officials that endorse and order rape, to the agents the perform rape and sodomy, to the policies that promote the development rapists, and down to the people who are produced as sociopaths who need not look too far to see raping as an example to emulate. There is a lot of sickness here to wag a finger at.

[LanternWaste]

189. You can of course point towards a dynamic, healthy society

"Regardless, this is just another sign of a sick society..."

You can of course point towards a dynamic, healthy society for either contrast or as a control group, yes? If not, it would seem your position is based upon a tautology.

[LanternWaste]

188. You then believe that the soldiers guilty

You then believe that the specific and individual soldiers guilty of those atrocities are indicative of the military culture as a whole?

If not, what is the precise and relevant difference between what you stated and what I ascribed to you?

[Deja Q]

13. Even in my day, insipid stuff like this was just not common.

Lock 'em up and melt the key and fuse the lock.

I have no sympathy for the perps, nor do they deserve any. Make an example of them. Show such actions will not be tolerated.

Is that too difficult a concept for people to grasp? Discipline just due for a crime so heinous?



Or is "boys will be boys" just got to fly as the prevailing excuse, as usual??

[Jkid]

17. "boys will be boys"? Sadly it is a prevailing excuse.

But the question is this? What if they kill or rape a harmless person? Thankfully, these perps will pay for their choices with their freedom.

[dgibby]

25. Um, I think they did rape a harmless person.

[Pamela Troy]

110. Is trying juveniles as juveniles too difficult a concept to grasp?

[LostinVA]

123. Your attack on Haruka showed you don't think their crime was taht big of a deal

[Dogtown]

148. Is venal hyperbole your only means of communication?

State your point, be duly noted and ignored for your lack of content, and let the adults continue our discussion.

[olegramps]

156. Is holding a person accountable for their actions to difficult of a concept for you to grasp?

[Ron Green]

18. Florida again. Yikes.

[timtom]

32. Yeah! That's it.

That's the issue!

[L0oniX]

172. Duh

[Jkid]

21. If the perps are found guilty, the victim should sue them in civil court.

Prosecute and bankrupt school bullies if they do serious offences.

[proteus_lives]

29. Good!

Prison is where they deserve to be.

[Pamela Troy]

111. And what do you imagine happening to them in an adult prison?

[LostinVA]

124. Nothing, since they wouldn't be housed with the adult population

[uppityperson]

136. Nothing since they will not be with the adult prisoners

[proteus_lives]

152. Exactly what they deserve.

[lpbk2713]

31. Bullying him for months didn't seem to be enough for them.

Well ... now the big tough guys are about to find out how really tough they are.

[Pamela Troy]

115. And you like that idea, do you?

Make you feel good? Would it spoil things for you if you didn't get to imagine what was happening to them in an adult prison?

[LostinVA]

128. You seem to like accusing people of wanting to get off on thinking of these guys being raped

You said it to Haruka, too, who is female and a strong advocate here and IRL of rape victims.

"Make you feel good? Would it spoil things for you if you didn't get to imagine what was happening to them in an adult prison?
Pamela Troy"

That, as well as what you wrote to Haruka, is disturbing.

[uppityperson]

137. Being incarcerated in a juvie facility vs not with adults in regular prison is better?

[Dogtown]

149. That's really sick

You have a seriously nasty soul.

[olegramps]

157. It appears to me that you are the one with the notions that they will be sexual assaulted in prison.

[Quantess]

39. Why charge them as adults?

People think they belong in prison with adult men? What will that accomplish?

I agree they need to be locked up, but they are only 14 and 15 after all.

[chemenger]

44. Why not?

Serious crime. Let them do some serious time with some serious hard-cores.

[Quantess]

47. So they can learn from the older inmates?

Maybe get raped?

By the time they are let out back into society, they will be that much worse. If we could keep them locked up forever, then it wouldn't make a difference to society. But they will be released someday, and not as better citizens.

[LostinVA]

63. They won't be housed with adult criminals

[Hepburn]

46. It would accomplish, IMO....

...that another minor is not gang raped by them.

Just a thought...

Edit for typo

[Mike Daniels]

52. As someone else suggested....

Put them in juvie until they are 18 and then ship them off to prison.

People who do something like this aren't going to grow out of it as they acquire adult wisdom.

[Hepburn]

59. IMO, it is important to keep society safe from them.

I usually do not think this way and look primarily at rehabilitation in most cases. But...in this case, society IMO needs some protection. I do like your idea about Juvie for them...except that they could pry on the younger/smaller inmates in Juvie. They would have to be isolated at all times. And with the budgetary concerns in most states and jurisdictions, I am betting that Juvie Hall is not a place that is getting any extra staffing.

No good solution on this one. I agree that they are not going to get better with age.

JMHO

[Zodiak]

49. These kids are assholes and monsters

Having said that, so are we as a society. We cheer anal rape in prison. We cheer anal rape in our detention facilities. We do nothing about bullying until the victim blows away the whole school, get killed by his tormentors, or kills themselves.

We are quick to judge and quick to throw people's lives away for convenience, or to satisfy a sense of judgement, or to "look tough on crime" when we ourselves are failed and flawed human beings.

These kids should be tried as juveniles because that is what they are. If guilty, then sent to a juvenile detention facility to serve their time according to their crime. I hate that we try children as adults in this country. There is no desire to rehabilitate the kid....just judge them and punish them. I see it all over this thread.

At the same time I am seeing this, I see no suggestions for what to do with the victim, who will need extensive counseling. And I would like to see his school put on trial, as well...did two months of bullying produce evidence that the school could have acted upon? This did not happen in a vacuum....other people were affected, and other people could bear responsibility.

But please, if I am putting a wet blanket on your crime and punishment party and feeling good about the criminal getting his just deservation, then I sincerely apologize. I never was able to understand the "hang 'em high" mentality where the crueler and more permanent the punishment, the more people cheer.

[ellenfl]

72. huh? who says?

"We cheer anal rape in prison. We cheer anal rape in our detention facilities."

holy crap. i have never heard of anyone cheering rape, of any kind, anywhere.

i believe the point made here is that these two boys harassed another younger boy over a sustained period of time which culminated in an horrific act against that boy. if this is how young people are supposed to act, then we have failed as a civilization. mostly what has been said here is that they deserve more of a punishment than a slap on the wrist. i totally agree.

what message do we send other bullies if we let these boys off with that slap on the wrist? perhaps, juvie will be enough to set them straight. i don't know because i am no expert on children, crime or punishment. we are a violent society. that's sad but true and someone will pay the price for it, until we wise up and start treating each other with consideration, if not respect.

ellen fl

[LostinVA]

83. It happens on here all the time -- it's odious

[Zodiak]

125. Just about half of this country feels that anal rape in our detention facilities

...are "just frat boy pranks" and that anal rape in prison is what criminals deserve.

If you have never heard "don't drop the soap" yelled at a criminal in our society, then you may not have been paying close attention.

I didn't say a slap on the wrist....I said try them according to the laws BEFORE we started opening the floodgates to try kids as adults. Trying kids as adults does nothing at all for the kid's rehabilitation...it's all about us feeling tough on crime.

[Dogtown]

158. You suggest that this trial indicates

that no attempt will be made to rehabilitate them. You seem to assert that there's no attempt to rehabilitate adults, yet you do not seem concerned. Do adults not deserve anything more than punishment?

Perhaps it's true that half of this country feels that anal rape in our detention facilities are "just frat boy pranks" and that anal rape in prison is what criminals deserve. Probably the same half, give or take, that voted Bush into power. I don't see how that pertains to this case. And, for the record, you may see an occasional callous reference to prison rapes on DU. You'll also see 10 posts decrying the post and chastising the poster. 50% of *us* do not think prison rape is a joke. At all.

I'm sorry these boys have thrown their lives away by their horrible crime. That said, I hope they're sequestered away from civilized society for a very long time.

Others have brought it up, but with your permission I'll address another issue in this response.

These boys will not be placed in GenPop. If for no other reason, the guards can not deal with the turmoil will create. They'll be put in Max Security Juvenile;e Detention until their adults. They'll get the same rehabilitation services as any other juvenile, which isn't saying much in the state of FL.

When they're eligible for parole, they'll get their shot.

Our prison system sucks, but trying these boys as juvies and releasing them into society at 18 isn't a very good idea.

I will thank you for the evenness and civility of your post. Some who agree with you have been argumentative and disruptive but you've set an example of supporting your opinion passionately but with restraint and respect.

[Zodiak]

178. Thanks

I don't always exercise civility and respect, but I reserve my nastier and preachy side for people that I feel are disruptive. And I agree that posters on both sides of issues tend to go overboard, derailing the conversation and raising the noise to signal ratio.

Having said that, I got into a conversation with my wife about this very same thread in the grocery store, and she brought up some issues that I had to consider, some of them you mentioned in your post.

We decided that what my problem was is treating these kids as adults and putting them in an adult prison. I do believe that adult prisons do not do much in attempting to rehabilitate, and imagined that juvie facilities would. That is an assumption I realize.

I just know that stupid teens do stupid and cruel things sometimes, but may very well be "normal" otherwise, and quite redeemable. If I could not pull examples of actions that occurred in my youth that would be on the same level then I would be more quick to judge. But unfortunately I knew of a lot of screwed up things my classmates did to each other.

My wife was like you...did not want them released back into society at 18 with a clean record. I agreed with her on that. Time should be done here, and their record should not remain clean so they are not put into a situation where they can do this again.

So we compromised and realized where the real problem is...and that is cleaning out records at 18 for violent crimes. An adult should have a probationary period where they prove they have become productive members of society, and THEN the record should be expunged. Say, ten years or so.

So, in short, we should change our laws on how we deal with juvenile violent offenders, but still within the juvie system. I still think turning them over to the adult system ignores the propensity for kids to do stupid things for stupid reasons, or because they are in environments they cannot control and didn't learn better. A kid deserves a more sincere attempt at rehabilitation than an adult, but I acknowledge adults need it, too.

[Dogtown]

181. Our entire prison system is a blemish.

And much needs to be done towards rehab. Not much point in jailing someone at 20 and releasing him 7 years later with no skills and no job-history to put on an application. They get to work the crappiest possible jobs for the rest of their lives, on the edge of poverty, or revert to crime.

Prison populations are squalid and demeaning, and incredibly unsafe. No prisoner deserves to be assaulted, physically or sexually, while imprisoned, but little is done to stop it.

Our prisons are only nominally more civilized than they were in the 19th century, and that for the welfare of the guards. I don't believe in coddling by any means, but our prisons are just schools for horrific acts.

It's one of the clearest indicators how bad our society has become.

[JHB]

166. "Don't drop your soap in the shower!" "...when some big XXX makes you his b**ch!"

Look at just about any movie or TV show over the last 20+ years involving sending someone to jail (especially the "comedies").

They may not "cheer" prison rape, but they wink and chuckle at it. The one thing they don't do is recoil in horror and demand the prison autorities put a stop to it.

[ellenfl]

167. you're talking tv!? please. eom

[Vidar]

50. They should be.

[Ganja Ninja]

56. "multiple incidents on different dates."

Sounds like they're getting what they deserve.

[spin]

62. Another ariticle on the sexual assault from the Tampa Trib...

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jun/03/4-teens-charged-adults-middle-school-rape-case/news-metro/

Florida has an anti-bullying law.

Be It Enacted by the Legislature of the State of Florida:

Section 1. Section 1006.147, Florida Statutes, is created to read: 1006.147 Bullying and harassment prohibited.

(1) This section may be cited as the "Jeffrey Johnston Stand Up for All Students Act."
(2) Bullying or harassment of any student or school employee of a public K-12 educational institution is prohibited:
(a) During any education program or activity conducted by a public K-12 educational institution;
(b) During any school-related or school-sponsored program or activity or on a school bus of a public K-12 educational institution; or
(c) Through the use of data or computer software that is accessed through a computer, computer system, or computer network of a public K-12 educational institution.
(3) For purposes of this section:
(a) "Bullying" means systematically and chronically inflicting physical hurt or psychological distress on one or more students and may involve:
1. Teasing;
2. Social exclusion;
3. Threat;
4. Intimidation;
5. Stalking;
6. Physical violence;
7. Theft;
8. Sexual or racial harassment;
9. Public humiliation; or
10. Destruction of property.
http://www.bullypolice.org/fl_law.html

[aikoaiko]

68. Where is the "their brains aren't fully developed - they're prone to impulsivity" crowd?

:shrug:

[ellenfl]

76. they've been bullying the kid for a while . . . where does 'impulse' come in? eom

[aikoaiko]

175. The bullies' harassment of the boy was not impulsive.

I was being sarcastic.

[Zodiak]

129. Up your ass where you pulled out that backhanded attack on other DUers

Just state your point rather than pre-emptively try to stir some shit with other DUers. Man, some people just cannot put down the goddamned flame-thrower.

And yes, I am cursing...you wanted flames, you got it.

[olegramps]

168. It appears to me that you are the one that is out of control.

There are certain acts that can be committed by minors that are so serious in nature that they are not in the realm of being treatable by juvenile detention.

It is my opinion and evidently that of the those prosecuting this crime that it is so serious that it is not in that category. It is my understanding that if they were tried as juveniles that they could only be incarcerated until they are eighteen years of age.

This has nothing to do with the satisfaction of some sort of revenge. It is a serious crime that will require in dept determinations as to where and for what period of time should these juveniles should be held to assure that they will not repeat this crime. I would suspect that a psychological examination would reveal a degree of pathological sickness. Hopefully they can be treated and return to society and lead productive lives.

However, these offenses are not the general run of the mill juvenile offenses of stealing, brawling, drugs and general adolescent rebellion. It is not responsible to assume that some kid that plots to murder their parents to inherit their money should be tried in juvenile court. Juvenile courts were never designed to address such serious crimes. It is unfortunate that more and more serious crimes are being committed by juveniles and perhaps a new court should be devise to address the situation.

[Zodiak]

179. This is independent of the issue

I have stated clearly my position on this issue up-thread, please deal with that there.

This has everything to do with just posting snark at other DUers for the sake of it. And as you can see, on the issues, I'm not unhinged. But with the snark, I am....and I decided to chide this DUer for engaging in that activity. I just get tired of the "this clique vs. that clique" mentality.

Just state your position on the issues...it wastes my time receiving clusters of eletrons that are there for no more reason than to be snarky.

[aikoaiko]

174. They live up my ass? Mon Deu what a horror for them. I just ate lamb shawarma with hot sauce.

Sorry if my snarkiness was too much for you.

I have noticed that when a teen commits an act of murder some DUers defend them from being treated as adults and if the murder is with a gun then the NRA is to blame.

Strangely, we haven't seen this defense of the teens accused of sexual assault.

[Zodiak]

180. Then just state your case.

And try to keep the snark at a minimum.

I would love reading a post you wrote that actually did that.

I am so tired of DUers taking stabs at other groups of DUers because of their position on issues. You disagree, great...but do you have to make fun of people for it? Do you have to treat them as a monolithic entity and take swipes at them in their absence?

State their position if you must, and then knock it down. your post reads like an Us vs. Them, and that bothers me when such a scenario features members of this community.

Sorry I cursed....I sincerely apologize for that because I rarely do it, and I should practice what I preach.

Now, for the record, yes, I am against treating child offenders like adults. I recognize that our juvenile system needs to be retooled to handle violent offenders better so they do not repopulate into society too quickly after violence, but I still think that a kid committing a crime should have a separate judicial system as adults do.

But my disagreement on the issues is not what made me lash out...it was the snark. Sorry about that, but I do stand behind the reasons why I acted out.

[olegramps]

185. Your position seems to have matured.

You appeared to have taken the position that minors should never be tried as adults. My comment was that minors that commit serious crimes can not be properly handled in Juvenile courts. This situation results in prosecutors being compelled to try them under the statues as an adult.

Until our legislatures can pass laws creating a separate system for handling major crimes committed by juveniles then this is the only recourse. I would suggest that since you seem to be so vehemently opposed to the present system that you should attempt to enlist the aid of your representatives in establishing a new system to deal with these cases. Until that happens then I will have to be content with them being tried as adults. Their crime certainly does not allow for them to be tried as minors and incarcerated with kids who have committed relatively minor offenses.

[Zodiak]

186. My wife and I discussed the subject at the grocery store

And so yes, I altered my position a bit. That is what happens when people state their positions clearly in a respectful environment. Wish there were more of it around here.

[MrSlayer]

126. Good, give them the full 120 years.

Since we can't simply execute them. People like this are a waste of space and resources.

[TransitJohn]

127. Cool.

New meat for the sex offender registry.

[WI_DEM]

162. hard to feel too much sympathy for them

[olegramps]

169. I would not be surprised if O'Reilly won't be commenting that the kid probably enjoyed it.

He had about the same thing to say about the boy who was kidnapped and sexually assaulted for a number of years.

[L0oniX]

171. Hey ...they are kind of just doing the same thing our military does. That should make it ok.

[lumberjack_jeff]

173. Why do we have a juvenile justice system? n/t

[hayu_lol]

176. Hmmmm...30 years sounds about right...

might help to tattoo 'eyecandy'on their foreheads.

People who do these things go to prison. These are people who did this.