Late-term Abortions: Facts, Stories, and Ways to Help

[Triana]

In all the extensive coverage of the assassination in his church of Dr. George Tiller by a murderer affiliated with extremist right-wing groups, little has been said to shed light on what late-term abortions are, who has them and why.

Instead, much of the media and talking heads pontificating on this subject have constantly focused on Tiller's being "one of the very few doctors who perform late-term abortions," without providing any context as to why he did so and under what circumstances.

As a result, the dominant narrative is one which perpetuates an assumption that people are electing to have late-term abortions for the sake of convenience. This public perception is shaped by the constant intonement that Tiller was "killing babies" coming from irresponsible journalistic hacks like Bill O'Reilly, the suggestions by Chris Matthews that women are blithely electing to abort fetuses that are viable outside the womb, and the statements of inconsistent moralizers like Will Saletan that "there are cases where there's no real medical situation other than some teenager in denial and it went on for five months you should make an exception because of the so-called mental health of the girl."

The narrative is one in which women are shamed for choosing abortion, no matter the circumstances, and in which Dr. Tiller is portrayed even indirectly as a despicable aide in their shame.

MORE...

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/06/02/thirdtrimester-abortions-facts-stories-and-how-you-can-help-0

[RaleighNCDUer]

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Roe v Wade specifiy that it is

still illegal to abort a viable fetus when there is no health threat to the mother? Making ALL late-term abortions medical necessities?

[csziggy]

2. You are somewhat right - from the article, the facts

Late-term abortions are severely restricted by law.

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the constitutional right to privacy extends to the decision of a woman, in consultation with her physician, to terminate a pregnancy.

The Court also determined, however, that this right is not absolute and it must be balanced against the state's legitimate interest in protecting both the health of the pregnant woman and the developing human life. Therefore, according to Roe, the state's interest in protecting potential life becomes compelling at the point of fetal viability (when the fetus has the capacity for sustained survival outside the uterus). States are allowed to, and indeed have, severely restricted access to abortion in the third-trimester, except, as the Supreme Court has ruled, when necessary to preserve the woman's life or health. In subsequent cases, the Court made clear that viability is a medical determination, which varies with each pregnancy, and that it is the responsibility of the attending physician to make that determination.

[sarge43]

5. No, you're not wrong.

In most cases a third trimester D&X is done when the fetus is dead, dying or has a medical condition such as hydrops fetallis or lethal dwarfism, preventing any possibility of survival let alone normal development postpartum.

No doctor who wants to keep his/her medical license or avoid a criminal conviction would do a 3T D&X for any other reason.

[galaxy21]

3. From what I've been reading about Tiller in the last few days

part of the controversy was that he often signed off on late term abortion for mental health reasons, and there was the feeling that he was generally too liberal with how he labelled something like depression (although, in fairness, he was late found not gulity on any wrong doing in relation to that, so they may have been baseless accusations).

I think the average person will agree that late term abortion is acceptable if someone's life or physical health is in danger. Mental health seems to be a different, though.

I've only really been reading articles about it for the last few days, so if anyone wants to elaborate or knows more that would be great.

[sarge43]

6. As none of us including the authors of those articles has access to

Dr Tiller's medical records, can we second guess his judgments?

I would say a woman considering suicide due to depression could be a mental health call, but that's again a guess. I don't know and there's only one person left who can say for sure.

[galaxy21]

8. We don't have access to his medical records, that's true,

But I'm personally very uncomfortable with the underlying hint in many of these posts, that if you question anything about Tiller you're some pro life extremist who wants women to die in childbirth. He was a controversial figure. That's not a right wing talking point, that's a fact.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. I contend he was only controversial because the anti-choicers

chose to make a controversy of him.

They may have legitimate issues with 1st and 2nd trimester optional abortions, but third trimester abortions as Tiller performed were medical necessities for the life and health of the mother. THAT is a fact.

[galaxy21]

11. Earlier Sarge43 said it was unfair to question Tiller

because I didn't have access to his medical records. Which may be true. But couldn't you say the same thing here? How can you know that for a fact unless you have his records?

From what I can gather, reading various stories, I think Tiller saved many womens lives and spared them a lot of heartache with it came to unviable pregnancies. I think he helped a lot of women. That is true. But all the stuff I'm reading about this (and this isn't from right wing extremist media or anything, the guardian and the bbc for goodness sake) there does seem to be the feeling, even amongst those in the pro choice community, that he was trying to monopolise the industry and above all else was a pretty savvy businessman. Then throw in the speculation that went on for years and years that he was far too liberal with how he dealt with mental health, and you're left with a very complex figure and you can't be surprised if there was a reluctance to trust him wholeheartedly.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. WTF? Trying to monopolise the industry?

The 'industry' of being one of only 3 doctors in the country who provided a medically necessary service? It was not HE who TERRORIZED everyone else out of the field.

I haven't seen ANYONE in the pro-choice community saying he was a 'savvy businessman' who was doing this for the bucks.

And my understanding is that before a clinic can perform a late-term abortion, the procedure MUST be cleared with an outside physician to verify its necessity. So O'Reily's bullshit about killing babies because the mother was depressed is just that - bullshit.

[galaxy21]

15. this was what I was referring to

from the bbc

In the early 1990s, Dr Tiller bought a second clinic in Wichita and tried to acquire a third. This, along with the reduction of fees for a first-trimester abortion, further antagonised abortion foes.

It even caused dismay among some abortion-rights supporters, who criticised him for seeking to create a monopoly.


I always hate threads like this because you always end up getting accused of being a pro life zealot who watches Bill O'Rielly, regardless of whether you are or not.

And I didn't mean "savvy businessman" like he was only in it for the cash, so I apologise if anyone thought that. I believe he was motivated to go into it, after a friend died of an illegal one. So, while money was a factor, there's no reason to believe it was his only motivation.

[sarge43]

21. Let me clarify.

Let's say you have testicle or ovarian cancer and your only hope for survival is an immediate operation to remove the organs. Let's say your surgeon is 'controversial' because of some other operations she has done.

Let's say extreme groups believe that any action which prevents conception is against God's commandments and they decide to haul your doctors and you into court to stop you. Your entire medical history becomes public record and is posted all over the net. Your physical and mental state are media talking points. No matter what the judge rules by the time they're done with you, you've died a horrible death from cancer or you killed yourself out of depression or fear. Just icing on the cake that your family will read or hear you were a big wimp or a whore.

If you think I'm being off the wall here, read some of the antiabortion sites. It's a very short step from abortion is murder to prevention of conception is murder. In fact some of them believe that.

What I am saying is medical decisions must have a high wall of privacy else we're going to have people making your decisions for you via video tape, re Terri Schiavo. Legal control yes, within reason and when it does no harm.

In short, a fundamental right to privacy to decide what's best for you. I've been in court twice concerning a life or death medical decision and I was lucky. No one posted the facts of the cases on the net. Trust me, you don't want to go through that.

The reason Dr Tiller was one of three MDs doing 3T D&X was few doctors wanted their clinics blown up or a bullet in their heads or dragged into court every time they turned around.

I'd be interested in reading the stuff you cited. Would you post some, please.

[sarge43]

10. You missed the "us" "we" "our" in my posts?

And Dr Tiller made himself controversial all by himself? No help from extremists groups or media shills?

[Stellabella]

12. Well, then don't get a late term abortion.

Other than that, it's none of your business.

[galaxy21]

13. What an articulate reponse

You must have spent all day thinking that one up. Well done.

Stellabella, I should have made it clear that I have no interest in turning this into a pro choice vs pro life arguement. I was merely pointing out Tiller wasn't above criticism. And it seems unfair to expect other people to treat him as above criticism.

But hey, instead of talking like adults, Stellabella, let's go back to your kneejerk, mindless reactions that miss the point entirely.

[Stellabella]

16. Buzz off.

The whole point of Roe. v. Wade is that is it a PRIVATE decision made between a woman and her doctor.

It's none of your fucking business.

And thank you. My response was totally articulate and to the point.

Unlike your mindless drivel.

[galaxy21]

18. my response

"The whole point of Roe. v. Wade is that is it a PRIVATE decision made between a woman and her doctor."

But the states have considerable say in the third trimestor as well.

"It's none of your fucking business"

Can you post anything but talking points?

"And thank you. My response was totally articulate and to the point."

No, it wasn't. We were talking about how Tiller was percieved on here, and you barged in, and changed the subject entirely.


"Unlike your mindless drivel."

Ironic coming from you.

[Turbineguy]

4. Thanks for this interesting article

If nothing else, the fact that very few doctors perform this procedure should be a clue. And that is there are very few of these procedures.

The idea that women would get late stage abortions for convenience' sake is absurd to me. By that time people are looking at nursery furniture and have already acquired a new wardrobe. As a pregnancy progresses, so would the commitment to it.

[galaxy21]

7. A lot of these posts do seem to be preaching to the converted

The fact is, there is almost no-one on here that would deny a woman a late term abortion for serious physical health reasons. Or force a woman to carry a fetus that's not going to be viable. And there is virtually no one that thinks what happened to Tiller is anything less than barbaric.

But a lot of these posts seem to be saying "Don't think Tiller was anything less than a saint." You don't have to be a pro life zealot to note that were certain ethical questions that surrounded the man. He was brave, undoubtedly, he stood up to extremists and gave his life for it. But he was also a businessman, and not immune to criticism.

From what I've been reading about him, I have the picture of an incredibly complicated and complex man. I'm not actually sure what to make of him.

[Triana]

17. I wouldn't be so sure of the "no one here" claim. A couple yesterday responded to a post

wherein I quoted Tiller with "tripe" - and I doubt they gave a damn what the situation was for these women.

We DO have them here.

[madfloridian]

19. If one judges Tiller, they are anti-choice.

He worked within the law.

Yes, there are some here who would like the option of deciding when a woman would have an abortion.

That makes them anti-choice because they don't think a woman and doctor have a right to make such decisions.

[Triana]

20. At that stage in a pregnancy...

....whatever's going on is extremely dire - the child is dead, or so deformed, or defective or the mother's life or health is so in danger, that anyone who thinks they are better qualified to decide whether a late-term abortion is justified - is pretty arrogant and presumptuous, IMO. That can ONLY be decided between a woman and her doctor and it should only be decided by those two persons. No one else.

The pro-control freaks like to try to paint these women like hysterical idiots who 'just woke up in a bad mood' in the 6th month of their pregnancy and decided they wanted to end it. I don't know when that was EVER the case (#1) -- and (#2) the law does not allow for abortions to be performed under such circumstances - no matter what BillO says. Dr. Tiller was tried and found NOT guilty of violating that law. He followed it carefully.

That's a long way of saying I 100% agree with you. Anyone judging Tiller is anti-choice and for that matter, anti-life, IMO,

[Hepburn]

22. Exactly. n/t