Chavez attempting to get rid of trade unions

[sabbat hunter]

and replace them with government controlled "workers councils" just like in Soviet Russia. He is a complete nut.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2009/05/15/en_eco_esp_chavez-curbs-dissent_15A2330817.shtml

[DavidDvorkin]

1. This is surely a good thing

How it's a good thing will be explained to us soon, right here on DU.

[sabbat hunter]

25. I am amazed

how just because someone calls himself "socialist" he gets undying, unquestioned support by some here (and else where). Ignoring facts on the ground, such as the slow but sure elimination of opposition to his regime, suppressing of dissent, etc.

[DavidDvorkin]

34. Does it apply to others, or mainly to Chavez?

I haven't really kept track.

[EFerrari]

36. And I am amazed that you believe the same entities that tell you Obama = Bush

and that late term abortion is baby murder when it comes to Hugo Chavez. You are the one that is unquestioning, not the DU students of Venezuela. It's the same people spinning for the same right wing agenda but all of a sudden, if the topic is Chavez, they must be right. That's amazing.

[bluestateguy]

2. Oh this ought to be good

Seeing DU's Chavez fan club rationalize this away, that is.

[devilgrrl]

9. This report is so TRUE!!!!!!!!! Chavez is to satan like white is too rice! When will everyone LEARN!

:eyes: :popcorn:

[JVS]

12. Oh noes! Soviet Venezuela is coming!

We're going to need to come up with some kind of word order shift to give them equal status to Soviet Russia with its Russian reversal!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

26. I've been working. Am I too late

for some of that popcorn?

:hi:

[sabbat hunter]

28. not yet

just getting warmed up it seems

[devilgrrl]

38. Warmed up on bullshit!

HUGO CHAVEZ - HE THE DEVIL!!!!!

:scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared::scared:

bugga bugga bugga!!!!

[brendan120678]

3. Are you criticizing Chavez??

:popcorn:

[Taverner]

4. corruptio optimi pessima

The corruption of the best is the worst

And of course, Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Sigh - he used to be good...

[JVS]

5. Oh yeah right. As if the "The Economist" gives a shit about workers.

[Tempest]

7. You beat me to it

The Economist (I read it regularly) is extremely rightwing and is known to publish articles from dubious sources.

This is one of them, considering I can find no other sources or information on the supposed bill.

[JVS]

8. Why do people dig into the smelliest asshole news sources for material against Chavez?

[Tempest]

10. Some people hate when a leader actually takes steps to help his citizens

Or maybe it's his brown skin.

[sabbat hunter]

18. how is

getting rid of unions good for his citizens?

[devilgrrl]

40. If he's against labor unions - then why don't US conservatives like him?

He sounds like he'd be a perfect fit for the GOP.

[EFerrari]

41. If he were against labor unions, Bush would have given him a medal, too.

[Dogtown]

43. Cause they can't find anything real

to attack him with?

Apparently they scour the 'tubes looking for any tidbit they can twist.

Foolish children.

[HelenWheels]

42. Look at the other articles

this paper is printing. Seems pretty right wing to me.

[Tempest]

6. The source for this is the rightwing The Economist

And the article is extremely vague.

I can't find another source or information on this supposed bill.

Can you?

[JVS]

11. The news source that lifted the article is no prize pig either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Universal_(Caracas)

[Judi Lynn]

16. El Universal is virulently anti-Chavez every day. They were involved in the run-up

to the coup in 2002.

Here's what Monde Diplo says about them:

After Chávez came to power in 1998, the five main privately owned channels - Venevisión, Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV), Globovisión and CMT - and nine of the 10 major national newspapers, including El Universal, El Nacional, Tal Cual, El Impulso, El Nuevo País, and El Mundo, have taken over the role of the traditional political parties, which were damaged by the president’s electoral victories. Their monopoly on information has put them in a strong position. They give the opposition support, only rarely reporting government statements and never mentioning its large majority, despite that majority’s confirmation at the ballot box. They have always described the working class districts as a red zone inhabited by dangerous classes of ignorant people and delinquents. No doubt considering them unphotogenic, they ignore working class leaders and organisations.

From:
HOW HATE MEDIA INCITED THE COUP AGAINST THE PRESIDENT
Venezuela’s press power
http://mondediplo.com/2002/08/10venezuela

The Economist ALWAYS shrieks about lefists. Always.

[dipsydoodle]

17. I've been waiting

for the cavalry. :)

[dipsydoodle]

13. Oh

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Venezuela is a democracy. If the people disapprove they will vote him out.

Or, is democracy only "good" when we like the results?

[sabbat hunter]

20. not if

Chavez eliminates the opposition, which he is attempting to do (see his stripping the mayor of Caracas of his powers by having an appointed official get his powers instead)

and here is a nice article from the Huffington Post... Or is that a right wing site now too?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/02/chavez-regime-has-launche_n_210401.html

or another from the NYT on Chavez's autocratic leanings

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/30/world/americas/30venez.html?hp

[EFerrari]

23. You seem to be under the impression that the right wing can give you

a better idea of what is going on in Venezuela. Do you also trust them to grade Obama for you?

[sabbat hunter]

27. I was unaware

that the Huffington Post and NYT were right wing entities. </sarcasm>

[EFerrari]

29. Simon Romero couldn't go more to the right without turning himself inside out.

And the title of that HuffPo offering would be a dead giveaway for most people.

[sabbat hunter]

30. is the

NYT also right wing? geez the excuses people make to defend a budding tin horn dictator.

[EFerrari]

33. Did you read that article? Have you searched Simon Romero?

You might be interested in an article called "The New York Times v. Hugo Chavez".


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=22&media_view_id=7402

[murdoch]

15. Venezuelan unions

The AFL-CIO has a long history of trying to undermine foreign labor federations. It has openly worked with the CIA and US big business to undermine unions outside of the United States. The usual method of doing this is to work to destroy the local countries labor unions, and replace them (or at least compete with them) with new labor unions funded by US big business, the CIA and programs like the NED.

The union created by the AFL-CIO/NED/ACILS in Venezuela was the CTV. The NED gets its money from the US government, so the funding for the "Venezuelan" "union" CTV came from the US foreign policy and military budget. The idea that it is either Venezuelan or a union is a joke.

It is a joke that Americans here say nothing of the how the so-called union that the Venezuelan left is against is primarily funded by the US government, yet rail against the idea that the government democratically elected by the Venezuelan people have any involvement in the countries labor.

The message I've seen in this thread - the CTV "union" which gets its budget from the US government is the representative of Venezuelan workers, and any interference with it by the government democratically elected by the Venezuelan people is anti-union, anti-labor, anti-democratic. Whatever.

Here are some articles from 3-4 years back which talk about this.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1239
http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/hov_afl-cio_convention_venezuela.htm
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/3954

[EFerrari]

22. Thanks, murdoch!

[anonymous171]

24. Yeah yeah, just like we needed the patriot act in order to protect us from the terrists.

Reactionary change is not revolutionary.

[EFerrari]

32. Maybe you could try reading those links instead of making bad analogies.

How convenient that the trade union for oil workers gets NED funds. I have to hand it to the vampires. They think of everything.

[murdoch]

37. The American government's NED is Venezuela's Patriot Act

The US Congress funds NED, which is what bankrolls the "Venezuelan" "union" CTV.

YOU live in the USA. Your countries government is openly (and probably secretly as well) interfering with Venezuelan labor organization, by bankrolling the CTV. Why don't you work to get the US to stop funding the NED?

Your government, the US government, is interfering with Venezuela's organized labor. Which you can say something about. Which you can DO something about (and which you can't do anything about in Venezuela since you're neither a Venezuelan worker or citizen).

But instead you complain about how the government Venezuelan democratically elected is doing.

Can anyone here imagine if the Venezuelan government was bankrolling some union or union confederation in the US that was making waves, what the US government would do? Everyone in the union would be in jail right now.

[EFerrari]

39. What led you to this information, murdoch?

This explains a lot of the disruptions that have been happening. Btw, Chavez had to cancel his trip to the inauguration in El Salvador for security reasons. Again. Someone really doesn't want him meeting with Funes.

[EFerrari]

35. I didn't know most of this: Hands Off Venezuela protests the NED at AFL

Hands Off Venezuela protests the NED at AFL-CIO Convention

Tuesday, 02 August 2005
Activists of the Hands Off Venezuela campaign, joining over 90 trade unionists, members of Chicago and Cincinnati Bolivarian Circles and Latin American Solidarity Center supporters, marched to demand suspension of AFL-CIO financial support for the NED during the first day of the trade union federation's national convention in Chicago Sunday. The occasion also marked the introduction of the US Trade Union Appeal for the HOV campaign, which collected 73 signatures from trade unionists of 15 different unions.

Signatories unions included the Teamsters, Teamsters Black Caucus, Carpenters Union, Millwrights, AFSCME (government workers,) Machinists, United Auto Workers, IURE, IBEW (electricians,) SEIU, Bloomington Federation of Teachers, NAL-CBR, BLET, NWU/UAW, AFT (teachers,) and the Chicago NEA (teachers.) Also signing the appeal were members of the IWW, Mexico Solidarity Network, Wellstone Action, Nicaragua Solidarity, and the Circle Bolivariana Cincinnati.

The starting rally at Chicago's Navy Pier began with speeches by former San Francisco Plumbers Union president Fred Hirsch, a long-time Latin American solidarity supporter, and represenatives of Chicago's Latin American Solidarity Center, which organized the day's events. The rally at Navy Pier also featured a Latin activist/singer. The loud and boisterous rally gained the attention and ear of many passers-by, headed to the downtown beach and recreation spot on the hottest ever recorded day in the city.

The rally then formed a column and marched to the downtown Chicago Sheraton Hotel, where the AFL-CIO convention was being held. The marchers shouted slogans such as "CIA, NED - Hands off Venezuela!" and "CIA, NED - they're the same! The only difference is the name!" The marchers then rallied in a plaza next to the hotel, where speakers from the Columbia Action Network and the Cincinnati Bolivarian Circle took the stage. Although turnout for the rally was much lower than expected, the grievances and demands of the demonstrators came out loud and clear.

http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/hov_afl-cio_convention_venezuela.htm

[Rage for Order]

59. Thank you for bringing some unbiased sources into the discussion!

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

62. LOL. The Economist right wing rag: gospel.

Anyone who challenges them: biased.

[anonymous171]

19. Bad if true. nt

[malaise]

21. He's late

the IMF, World Bank and WTO jumped him by three decades.

[Occam Bandage]

31. I like reading the Chavezista posts in this thread.

Every news story or NGO report that exposes Chavez's excesses is either a mistranslation or a complete lie. Once the story is revealed to be unambiguously true, then the issue at hand was simply a necessary response to an American or an "Oligarch" infestation of whatever he just nationalized/outlawed, and we should hope our own leaders would be so brave.

[Forkboy]

44. The reverse is also true, as you know.

Meanwhile, Chavez happily sits somewhere between the binary and simplistic image others (including you) have in their heads about him. I suspect he'd laugh at both the worship and the demonization.

"Chavezista"? Dude, that's not even catchy.... :shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

47. I hardly think Chavez is demonic.

I think he's a socialist with an admirable focus on social programs to stay in power; I'd far rather more politicians hit on the brilliant idea of actually helping people in order to become popular enough to stay in office. I also think he has a few unfortunate authoritarian tendencies (perhaps 10 to 20 centiPutins), and a worrying eagerness to fixate on vaguely defined internal enemies to society (the apparently omnipresent "oligarchy"). I think that even if Chavez's totalitarian proclivities are benign in their current manifestations, he is setting a worrisome trajectory when it comes to use of state power (for either himself or for his successor), and cheering him along his path is misguided. At the same time, I recognize that the reason Chavez's authoritarian streak is so heavily publicized is that his excesses are politically leftwards; outright dictators on the right wing are usually accepted as friends and allies by the government and by the news media, and so it's hard to believe that the degree of attention Chavez receives is entirely rooted in concern for the future of political liberty and openness in Venezuela.

I suppose my general mindset towards Chavez is skeptical acceptance. I find it hard to believe that it just so happens that The Oligarchy malevolently controls every aspect of Venezuela's political and economic power structure to the extent that Chavez absolutely must assume control of something else every other month. I think his social programs are cynical, but they seem moderately effective, and so I approve (all politics is cynical, after all). At the same time, he hasn't yet done anything outrageously offensive; the worst anyone can say about his use of the power he takes is that occasionally he steps on the toes of some political rivals. As such, I don't think he's a particularly bad egg, but I don't see him as the type of benevolent/principled sort to whom unlimited power may safely be surrendered.

[Forkboy]

49. We find ourselves in considerable agreement then.

Thank you for that post.

I suppose my general mindset towards Chavez is skeptical acceptance.

That's how I feel about everybody. :)

And "centiPutins" IS catchy...it could replace the ruble. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

50. Look at these The Economist titles from a quick search:

#
Hugo Chávez's wasted years | Ten mostly wasted years | The Economist
... he wins his latest referendum Hugo Chávez is ... Even if he wins his latest referendum Hugo Chávez is diminished. He may soon be desperate ...
www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13061513 - 51k
#
Squabbles in Hugo Chávez's party | Unfraternal | The Economist
Squabbles in the ruling party ... Subscribe to The Economist. Renew my subscription ... HUGO CHÁVEZ envisaged his Unified Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV) as a ...
www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11294428
#
Hugo Chávez tightens his grip | The autocrat of Caracas | The Economist
Hugo Chávez tightens the stateâ??s grip on politics and the economy ... Related Items. From The Economist. A biography of Hugo Chávez. Aug 2nd 2007. Country briefing ...
www.economist.co.uk/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11885670 - 55k

#
ECONOMIST: Hugo Chavez's revolution goes bust | PressDemocrat.com | The ...
The revolution is bust. After five years of rapid growth, based on oil-fueled public spending, Hugo Chavez's Venezuela has run into the buffers.The president insists ...
pressdemocrat.com/article/20090331/OPINION/903309938/1070?... - 65k - Cached
#

No bias there!

[Forkboy]

51. I never said otherwise.

:shrug:

You should know me by now, I don't trust any news outlet, right or left. :)

[EFerrari]

52. Oh, I wasn't implying you did.

And, me neither!

We see most of this stuff one article at a time. But, I've noticed that if I search a publication or a author, if there is a bias it shows up pretty clearly most of the time. :)

[Forkboy]

53. ok, sorry.

Carry on. :)

That's what I do, I search a person's body of work (so to speak) and look for patterns to emerge. They always do.

:hug:

[anigbrowl]

54. What of it? That does not prove bias

After all, if Chavez is doing a poor job running the economy as they contend, would reporting that be biased or just factual? The Economist regularly attacks Italy's Silvio Berlusconi as well, calling him corrupt and ineffective. FYI Berlusconi is rather like an Italian version of Bush - and the very opposite of socialist.

So if they were as biased against the left as you and some others suggest, they should be praising him, no? for that matter, they should be trashing Bolivia's Evo Morales on a regular basis (but they don't), not to mention Brazil's Lula (who in fact garners praise from them, not least for his success in reducing poverty and corruption).

[EFerrari]

57. Apples and oranges and grapes.

What the PTB want from those three countries is different. You can't compare them. And Venezuela has just completed 22 straight quarters of growth while the UN says poverty there has been reduced by 50% since 2002 and extreme poverty by 75%.

[anigbrowl]

75. Some argument you've got there.

I'm not that convinced. The Guardian points out that Venezuela has the highest inflation in Latin America at 30%, but I suppose they're a bunch of capitalist tools as well. Everything is so simple when you can attribute all ills to 'the PTB'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/02/venezuela-hugo-chavez-anniversary

[EFerrari]

76. Yes, there is bad inflation in Venezuela.

Production and transportation has been in the hands of the opposition until recently and there seems to be a global meltdown in case you hadn't noticed.

If you don't think that the PTB aren't after Chavez, you aren't paying attention. He just had to cancel a trip to Funes inaugural for security reasons, intel coming out of Nicaragua and El Salvador that someone thought shooting down his plane would be a good idea. I guess both of those govenments are in on the conspiracy to make excuses for Venezuela. :crazy:

[anigbrowl]

77. Gee, I'm convinced now

Like, you totally refuted my points. Thank heavens Venezuela isn't like Brazil.

[EFerrari]

78. Lula is Venezuela's biggest advocate in Washington.

[anigbrowl]

79. Well, maybe some day Saint Hugo will take a leaf out of his book.

...none of which invalidates my original points about the Economist's coverage of Venezuela, but facts are such inconvenient things.

[EFerrari]

80. That's right. None of this invalidates the fact that you ignore a right wing spin

that is plain to most people. That's your problem.

[anigbrowl]

82. Sez you.

I don't think you and a few others in this thread equate to 'most people', nor did you ever address my observations that their right wing spin doesn't seem to translate in support for right-leaning politicians like Berlusconi or automatic disdain for more moderate Latin American leaders...something you waved away with the contention that 'the PTB' have other plans for them.

[Posteritatis]

46. I sometimes I wish I had that kind of a fact shield

Some of those guys must live in a pretty comfortable world.

I still kind of expect that if the guy was filmed cooking and eating children in the streets of the capital people would say they were just counterrevolutionaries.

[EFerrari]

48. That's because you pay more attention to your expectations than to facts.

If you search The Economist's stories on Chavez, it's a pile of dog doo. Not one of their dire predictions has come true. Go see for yourself. But put your fact shield down first. :)

[Odin2005]

66. It's the same kind of reasoning used by USSR apologists in the 30s and 40s.

I am shocked and disgusted.

[EFerrari]

71. As by your own admission you haven't even read the thread

your shock and awe deserves about that much consideration.

[LostinVA]

45. Come back with a true fair and balanced news source and I'll comment

This source??? I wish I hadn't clicked.

[Better Believe It]

55. The workers will elect representatives to factory councils that will manage the enterprises!

Horrible I say, horrible!

:)

[JVS]

56. It's government controlled councils, I tells ya.

Just like when the people elect representatives to congress they enter that government controlled institution! Or is it that institution that controls the government? Ohh you see what a Byzantine and corrupt system it is! :grr:

[EFerrari]

58. Venezuela is rejecting American guidance. Where do they get OFF?!

:shrug:

[Better Believe It]

60. Government owned (nationalized) but under the actual control of elected employee representatives?

Wow!

If it works out and is democratic that could be a terrific example worldwide .... change workers could believe in!

[redqueen]

61. I love this thread.

[EFerrari]

63. This is every Chavez thead at DU.

lol

[redqueen]

64. Hah, yes... I should have said "subthread"

:hi:

[Odin2005]

65. The Chavez Apologists in this thread astound me.

Chavez is taking a page from the USSR and they applaud with approval. You fools are no liberals, you are authoritarians that would have no problem with a Huey Long-like dictator in control of the US as long as he is a leftist.

OMFG. :cry:

[EFerrari]

67. You obviously haven't read the thread. What a surprise.

[Odin2005]

68. I don't need to, the Chavistas are predictable enough.

"Oh, it's the Economist so it's obviously a lie", etc.

[EFerrari]

69. You don't need to so you will never find out for yourself what is happening.

Is that good enough for you? Cool.

[DireStrike]

70. Ooh, that's a shark-jumper right there.

[EFerrari]

72. Chavez is shutting down trade unions like Obama is running GM.

When will we learn to decode this cr@p.

[DireStrike]

73. I misread a quote in the economist article

That and murdoch's points upstream are good ones. I'll reserve judgement on this issue till I read more.

[EFerrari]

74. Congrats for having the sense to know you need to know more.

I'm seriously thinking of putting up a thread that just substitutes Obama for Chavez. In all honesty as far as I know, it's the same right wingers that are conducting these smears using the same tactics.

[Truth2Tell]

81. Great. Another right-wing propaganda thread. nt

[DainBramaged]

83. I got that impression too!