Why are so many people (politicians and DU'ers alike) retconning the recent CA props?

[XemaSab]

I've seen Arnold, DiFi, and half of the population of DU try to argue that the people of California voted "no" on higher taxes, and so we deserve what we get. We're not babies, and we're not stupid either. It appears to me that these measures were nothing but a shell game to postpone the inevitable.

Where are the higher taxes in here? :shrug:

1A STATE BUDGET. CHANGES CALIFORNIA BUDGET PROCESS.
LIMITS STATE SPENDING. INCREASES “RAINY DAY” BUDGET STABILIZATION FUND.
Increases size of state “rainy day” fund from 5% to 12.5% of the General Fund.
A portion of the annual deposits into that fund would be dedicated to savings for future economic downturns, and the remainder would be available to fund education, infrastructure, and debt repayment, or for use in a declared emergency.
Requires additional revenue above historic trends to be deposited into state “rainy day” fund, limiting spending.

1B EDUCATION FUNDING. PAYMENT PLAN.
Requires supplemental payments to local school districts and community colleges to address recent budget cuts.
Annual payments begin in 2011–12.
Payments are funded from the state’s Budget Stabilization Fund until the total amount has been paid.
Payments to local school districts will be allocated in proportion to average daily attendance and may be used for classroom instruction, textbooks and other local educational programs.

1C LOTTERY MODERNIZATION ACT.
Allows the state lottery to be modernized to improve its performance with increased payouts, improved marketing, and effective management.
Requires the state to maintain ownership of the lottery and authorizes additional accountability measures.
Protects funding levels for schools currently provided by lottery revenues.
Increased lottery revenues will be used to address current budget deficit and reduce the need for additional tax increases and cuts to state programs.

1D PROTECTS CHILDREN’S SERVICES FUNDING. HELPS BALANCE STATE BUDGET.
Provides more than $600 million to protect children’s programs in difficult economic times.
Redirects existing tobacco tax money to protect health and human services for children, including services for at-risk families, services for children with disabilities, and services for foster children.
Temporarily allows the redirection of existing money to fund health and human service programs for children 5 years old and under.
Ensures counties retain funding for local priorities.
Helps balance state budget.

1E MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES FUNDING. TEMPORARY REALLOCATION. HELPS BALANCE STATE BUDGET.
Amends Mental Health Services Act (Proposition 63 of 2004) to transfer funds, for a two-year period, from mental health programs under that act to pay for mental health services for children and young adults provided through the Early and Periodic Screening, Diagnosis, and Treatment Program.
Provides more than $225 million in flexible funding for mental health programs.
Helps balance state budget during this difficult economic time.

1F ELECTED OFFICIALS’ SALARIES.
PREVENTS PAY INCREASES DURING BUDGET DEFICIT YEARS.
Encourages balanced state budgets by preventing elected Members of the Legislature and statewide constitutional officers, including the Governor, from receiving pay raises in years when the state is running a deficit.
Directs the Director of Finance to determine whether a given year is a deficit year.
Prevents the Citizens Compensation Commission from increasing elected officials’ salaries in years when the state Special Fund for Economic Uncertainties is in the negative by an amount equal to or greater than one percent of the General Fund.

[DJ13]

1. What I dont understand

If those initiatives were supposed to save California's budget, why cant the state legislature pass the same budget amendments without the force of a special election pushing them?

[Luminous Animal]

6. Because 1B-1F were actually trojan horses

to get the populace to pass 1A which was a constitutional amendment. It is much easier for California to amend or revise its constitution by popular vote than by legislative action.

[1]

2. people are commenting on california's long history, not those specific six propositions...

[Lyric]

3. Are they talking about the property taxes thing?

The one that, if I am remembering correctly, keeps property taxes from getting higher?

It wasn't a recent proposition, of course, but is that what they're talking about?

[XemaSab]

5. Prop 13 was passed in 1978

Screaming about California's unwillingness to vote in higher taxes NOW is hardly helpful. :P

[AllentownJake]

4. When you allow the Citizens to directly ammend the State Constitution

with a 50% +1 plurality this is the shit you get.

[MadHound]

7. I'm not coming down on Californians for their failure to pass these recent Propositions

However what I never understood was why California passed Prop. 13. If you wanted to protect the elderly and keep them in their own homes, their were ways to do that which didn't require throwing the baby out with the bath water. But nooo, California jumped on the rabid right anti-tax bandwagon, and now they're riding it straight to hell.

I mean really now, did you honestly think that you could continue to provide the amount of services that your state did without having to pay for them at some point. Alarms were being raised all along the way, from the original days when Jerry Brown, Pete Wilson and Big Business(who stood to gain the most) opposed Prop. 13, recognizing that you had to pay for services and infrastructure somehow, down to the present day. Even when the warning sirens were blaring, your education system going in the toilet, your infrastructure crumbling, Californians firmly stuck their head in the sand and refused to consider reforming or repealing Prop. 13.

That's where I put the blame in this mess, you folks cut your own throats thirty years ago, and never, ever had the good sense to try and stop the bleeding. Now not only is California going to go down the tubes, but being the eighth largest economy in the world, it's probably going to take the rest of the country with it. You folks followed the rabid right wing anti-tax pied piper straight to hell.

[ContinentalOp]

9. Pete Wilson ran on SUPPORTING 13. Try again.

Also, these recent props are a great illustration of how all this works. We can't even get Democrats on DU to agree about exactly what the props meant. 13 would have been the same thing. Californians didn't necessarily knowingly buy into rabid right wing anti-tax sentiments 30 years ago. They bought into the attractive myth of "keep granny in her home" without necessarily understanding the long term implications.

[MadHound]

15. Gee, didn't I already school you on this on another thread?

Once more, for the terminally thick headed:
"Wilson's opposition to Proposition 13 contributed heavily to his poor performance in the gubernatorial election and, ironically, to the fiscal crisis confronting Wilson twelve years later when he succeeded in the governor's race."

<http://www.answers.com/topic/pete-wilson>

And being alive, adult, and acutely politically aware at the time, I well remember the fight over Prop. 13. Yes, Jarvis and his ilk kept pushing the whole thing about "keeping Granny in her home", but the scope of the damage that Prop. 13 was also well publicized. All the issues about decreasing quality of education, increased user fees, and yes, even ultimate economic collapse were brought before the public and hotly debated.

Worse yet, even when the damage that Prop. 13 was plain for all to see, Californians refused to reform or repeal Prop. 13. Instead you continued to buy into the rabid right wing anti-tax mantra, economic Armageddon be damned. Well, this is where it got you, in the economic crapper, taking the rest of the country with you. Good job:eyes:

[AllentownJake]

25. This is like when I blame baby boomers for Reagan, and the Bush family

There are DUers on here from that generation who fought tooth and nail against them. They take umbrage, even though if you look at exit polling, baby boomers are responsible for them. Just not those particular baby boomers.

[MadHound]

32. Oh Gawd, having been through the Reagan wars,

I know exactly who made up the voting demographics. I was chair of Mid-Mo Carter office at the time, and looking at the numbers I saw clearly that Baby Boomers were going to go out in droves for Reagan. Carter was a victim of his own lack of charisma, his centerist, luke-warm approach, the October Surprise, and mainly people's desperate need to feel good about themselves and this country. We were a depressed country at the time, and here comes Reagan with his Rah-rah rhetoric, U-S-A, U-S-A, and people fell for it hook, line and sinker.

Sadly, we've been paying for that mistake ever since.

[AllentownJake]

33. As a generation Baby boomers are Republicans and have been since 1980

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/national-exit-polls.html

If you follow the NY Times exit polling chart, the only time they didn't vote Republican was 1992 and 1996. Probably because voting for Poppy was like voting for their dad.

I get flamed whenever I point this out.

[MADem]

38. The "Greatest Generation" helped, too, though. It's a rare one of those that didn't go for Ronnie.

[ContinentalOp]

36. OK, well I could be wrong but I was going off of this...

"In 1982, Wilson won the Republican primary in California to replace retiring senator S.I. Hayakawa. His Democratic opponent was outgoing two term governor Jerry Brown. Wilson was known as a fiscal conservative who supported Proposition 13 while Brown opposed it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Wilson

So you will concede the point that I was not alive for the passage of Prop 13, and yet you'll still blame me for its effects? :shrug:

[MadHound]

39. Given that you and your state have had numerous chances to reform or revoke Prop. 13

Yes, the blame doesn't solely lie with those who voted on the original proposition. Hell, even with the damage apparent ten years ago, more Californians supported Prop. 13 then than when the original vote was taken:shrug:

Why haven't you, along with others, joined forces to overturn Prop. 13? After all, it wasn't like you and the rest of the country couldn't see this disaster coming a long time ago.

[XemaSab]

10. I was still in diapers when 13 passed

:shrug:

[MadHound]

19. OK, fine,

But where were you when politicians, political groups, and hell even Big Business tried to reform or repeal Prop. 13 over the past thirty years? Hell, ten years ago when one of these political movements was going on, it was found that more people supported Prop. 13 than during the original vote! And this with the damage of Prop. 13 plain before Californian's eyes:shrug:

[Cleita]

21. Then you don't know what it was like, not to have homeless in the streets

and when every California resident's child could get a tuition free education at a state college or the University of California system.

[XemaSab]

26. It's my understanding that there was NEVER free tuition

Why, my mom had to save quarters for a whole month in order to afford the $200 a semester UC Berkeley charged in 1970. :crazy:

[Cleita]

31. Yes, there was for California residents before you were born. What wasn't

free were lab fees, books and other extras. I worked at UCLA in the middle sixties so I know.

[AllentownJake]

11. When these cuts to social services happen

You are going to see an exodus from California the likes of which the world has never seen. Young and old.

The problems of these California will be spread first to neighboring states and than across the country as this group migrates across the country looking for an environment where they can feed their families.

You are also going to see a further collapse of the California Economy. All these people, despite what the freepers will tell you contributed to the economy out there. They bought things, rented, worked in low paying jobs etc. When they leave many businesses that have been feeding off of them for years will collapse. The entire California Agriculture industry is subsidized on these social services because the employers aren't providing it to their employees.

[MadHound]

22. Yep, and having the eighth largest economy in the world implode in such a fashion

Is going to take the rest of the country down with it.

[AllentownJake]

29. The economy is already being taken down

All California will do is speed the inevitable collapse.

We can't continue existing with a 711 billion dollar trade deficit which is what are economy is set up around. A trade deficit funded by consumer debt. Consumer debt taking ability has dried up.

The real question right now is what we will do after the collapse.

[DBoon]

12. My state passed 13 for the same reason the country elected Reagan

It wasn't just to keep homeowner property taxes from going up - it was part of a whole white suburban reaction to the civil rights movement and the great society.

Prop 13 was a Trojan horse designed to implement far right wing notions of governing. It was passed due to the racism and economic greed of a sizeable part of the electorate, that couldn't stand to see "those people" getting any benefit from their taxes

It was part of the big experiment of "drowning government in a bathtub"

[ContinentalOp]

14. Right, and our country is still seeing the negative effects left by Reagan, Bush, & Bush.

And yet we don't come on here and harangue other DUers about voting for Reagan and saying that America brought all of these problems on themselves! It's ridiculous the way some people here bend over backwards to trash talk Californians.

[AllentownJake]

20. America did bring these problems on themselves

I'll be the first to say it.

[MadHound]

24. Yep, and California is following that rabid right wing Pied Piper straight to hell

Sadly, they're going to take the rest of the country down with them.

[Luminous Animal]

28. Prop 13 was really a citizen's initiative.

Due to legislative dithering and truly onerous property taxes that were rising with no end in sight, Jarvis and what's his name, took the matter to the people. Granted they focused on the most conservative parts of the state but the whole entire thing could have been avoided if the California Senate had done their jobs.

Prop 13 had wide spread opposition from politicians from both parties AND the business community, who, despite knowing that corporations would be the biggest beneficiaries of the prop, recognized that it was fiscally unsound.

[Merlot]

13. First of all, I wasn't old enough to vote on Prop 13

And I don't think the average person who did vote for it understood the ramifications. I think it was a horrible thing to happen to CA, and it's devistated this state. But it's right in line with republican thinking on taxes and public services.

Big business and Pete Wilson opposed 13? That's news to me.

The repubs are still the anti-tax folks here, and thanks to prop 13 2/3 budget rule, the minority (the repubs) have blocked budgets and tax increases.

[AllentownJake]

18. Hate to say it but you guys are fucked.

There is no hope for change till there is an outright disaster.

[MadHound]

30. But where were you when they tried to repeal or reform Prop. 13 over the years?

Hell, ten years ago it was found that more people supported Prop. 13 in '98 than in the original election. And that with the evidence of Prop. 13's damage plain to see.

And yes, Pete Wilson originally opposed Prop. 13, as did the overwhelming majority of CA mayors at the time(he was mayor of San Diego at the time). It actually cost him the governor's seat in his first run. But both he, Jerry Brown, Big Business and many others understood that by cutting off your main revenue stream, especially with all the services California offered, your education would go down the toilet, your infrastructure would crumble, and ultimately you would have an economic armageddon. The ramifications were well known and debated on a national scale, yet the people of California chose to listen to the pied piper of the anti-tax right. Now we all get to pay the price.

[ContinentalOp]

37. Since I obviously don't pay as close attention to CA politics as you can you point me to some...

evidence of propositions over the years that would have repealed 13? I don't remember any in recent years.

[MadHound]

41. Let's see here

Prop 218 back in '96, a slew of lawsuits, and interestingly enough, Arnie was thinking of running on the platform of overturning Prop. 13, but was advised by his handlers not to go there.

[NV Whino]

34. What you all who are so well versed in California history seem to forget

is that we had a surplus and were doing quite well until Enron whacked us in the gut.

[MadHound]

40. The damage being done by Prop. 13 was evident well before Enron came along

That's why your education system slid from first to on par with Mississippi is such a short time. That's why all those user fees that many decried sprung up. Enron may have speeded things up, but Prop. 13 was destroying the state quite well on its own.

[katanalori]

35. Not that I disagree with all you say.....

But you have to address the spending side as well. How did our State Govt. go from spending approx. 78b in 2003 to approx. 103b in 2008? And our illustrious Legs. do NOT publish WHERE the $ is going. No transparency.

[ContinentalOp]

8. There was a "tax increase" of sorts in 1A.

It would have extended existing temporary tax increased for one or two more years, to take effect two years from now. Exactly how that was supposed to stave off cuts in this year's budget is a total mystery to me. But Luminous has it right: the whole thing was just a trojan horse to force us to amend the constitution and put spending caps in place. They're pissed that it didn't pass and are now taking their revenge on the people of CA. It's all quite transparent IMO, but apparently most DUers can't get past their irrational hatred of Californians to see what's going on.

[Merlot]

16. Agreed with you on the shell game.

Did Californians vote NO on higher taxes for the rich and corporations? No, because somehow those two groups weren't in the initiatives, were they?

[Cleita]

17. That's exactly what they were.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul kind of shuffle so Arnold wouldn't have to do the right thing and start looking hard at rolling back some of the tax cuts done by previous administrations like prop. 13.

[EFerrari]

23. Because getting the people to blame themselves and each other

is a powerful way to manipulate them? :shrug:

[hfojvt]

27. then we go back to Proposition 13 dammit

I need some reason to hate California besides the accursed Lasorda Dodgers years.