I just noticed: Pelosi respected the Muslim culture, placing a scarf on her head.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

Did Rice ever do that?

What bothers me most about this administration is its total disrespect of other views, not only abroad but also here at home.

How can such disrespect cultivate anything other than ill will?

I am just offering that simple observation. :shrug:

[Psephos]

1. I see it differently

She's mimicking the hijab. If you understand why women are compelled to wear the hajib or the burka in Muslim society then you will feel revulsion at this, not admiration.

Peace.


EDIT: typo fix

[hlthe2b]

6. and you have worked, lived, studied in the Middle East?

[pnwmom]

15. That isn't necessary to this argument. Any custom,

whether religious or cultural, that a woman but not a man must cover her hair is a custom that disrespects women.

[hlthe2b]

20. You have no understanding, but feel free to criticize a culture

unfamiliar to you. No wonder Americans are so beloved around the world. :sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

24. It's not so unfamiliar. My religion once required women to wear

something on their head when they went to Church. That was sexist, too.

And there are many Muslims in my city, but most of the women do not wear veils or scarves. Not every Muslim woman does, you know.

[uppityperson]

29. and men can't wear dresses in the USA either without getting mocked.

They are oppressed too.

[Hatalles]

30. But there is no "church" in Islam.

Each Muslim has his/her own interpreation of Islam. I know devout Muslim women who wear and do not wear the hijab.

[pnwmom]

35. Right. So there's no reason that Pelosi should be expected to wear a scarf.

[Hatalles]

38. I wouldn't mind if she didn't. I don't mind that she did either.

[KitSileya]

128. And men must remove headgear in church

Women no longer need to put something on their heads when they go to church except in Orthodox churches and in Spain. Before, it was no problem, as men and women usually wore head coverings, and when hats went out of fashion, the rules were relaxed. The rule that men be bare-headed in church, OTOH, is still being enforced.

Just this Christmas, we forced our male students to remove their caps when we had our Christmas service (Norway has a Lutheran-Evangelical state church, and voluntary church services at the end of Fall semester.) In fact, some of our boys slipped thru and didn't take of their caps (which most everyone of us wear in the winter months, being as we're close to the arctic circle) and were asked by the priest in his sermon to remove them, which they did. He nicely wove the point into his sermon, about respect and tradition, and the boys didn't take offense.

Is that sexual discrimination? You bet. But it is also tradition. Just as you don't go into churches in Rome with bikini tops (women) and bare chests (men).

When it comes to Muslim countries, I guess the question is how covered was she? A veil draped loosely over her head, or a hijab hiding all her hair? The first I would consider respectful, the second, not so much. The first is in line with wearing a hat at weddings or at Ascot, the second is conforming to and confirming suppression of women. I guess it has to do with whether the hair can still be seen. If it can, there argument about women covering their hair not to tempt men is moot, and it is simåly cultural. If no hair can be seen, they toe that idiotic, misogynistic line.

[Hatalles]

132. See #122.

Should these women view Western women as oppressed?


(disclaimer: a little nudity below - photos of some African tribal women)

[Raksha]

137. And in my religion it's obligatory that men (but not women, not any more)

cover their heads when attending a religious service.

Re >>Just this Christmas, we forced our male students to remove their caps when we had our Christmas service (Norway has a Lutheran-Evangelical state church, and voluntary church services at the end of Fall semester.)<<

Go figure. Not so long ago, and to this day among the Orthodox, married Jewish women were expected to keep their hair covered at all times. Even wearing wigs was/is okay, as long as they don't show their OWN hair!!!

[orleans]

129. i get what you're saying, but if that is the mainstream culture

(no matter if we agree with it or not) pelosi didn't go over there to piss them off--she's trying to be diplomatic and RESPECTFUL (unlike how all of the bush regime conducts business)

[pnwmom]

140. She wore it in the Mosque, which makes sense to me.

But it also makes sense to me that, as a representative of our government, she shouldn't feel obligated to wear a scarf in a government meeting, any more than Bush would wear the kind of headgear some of the men wear.

I also agreed with the President of Ireland when she did not cover her head when she visited the Pope. They were meeting as Heads of State. It would have been inappropriate, in my opinion, for her to wear a mantilla, as Nancy Reagan and Laura Bush have done.

But if you're going to talk about mainstream culture, the argument goes both ways. Our "mainstream culture" is predominantly Christian -- but I bet you're not in favor of telling visiting Muslims that they should ditch their veils if they come here.

[papau]

149. I agree n/t

n/t

[orleans]

244. i know, i know. i agree--but it still feels (to me) as if she did it as a

show of respect (something these countries need to feel from the u.s. because we have been disrespecting them for so long with this fuckhead administration)

[skygazer]

246. How is a Muslim not wearing a veil in America respecting Christian culture?

As far as I understand, Christian culture has no rules about not wearing veils. What a strange argument.

[Clark2008]

168. You're Catholic - so am I and I never felt repressed because

I had to wear a cute doily on my head.

Come on.

It's simply reverence.

[sampsonblk]

175. You are right

Respect for other people's cultures is vital. I think Nancy Pelosi gets it. She's in their country. Its only right to follow the customs as best she can.

[renate]

252. I agree. My favorite passage in "Passage to India"

... is the one in which Mrs. Moore, an Englishwoman, takes off her shoes before entering a mosque, even though it's nighttime and there is, as far as she knows, absolutely nobody around to see her. It really touched me.

Plus, in Nancy Pelosi's case, it would have been completely ridiculous for her to ignore Syria's customs and basically give her hosts a big F-U when she's there in a diplomatic capacity.

[sampsonblk]

296. EXACTLY-nt

nt

[Scriptor Ignotus]

247. I know little about the cultures that still allow

honor killings, don't persecute rapes and practice female circumcision. But I will criticize them anyway. Would you care to defend those practices?

[hlthe2b]

250. Absolute ignorance deserves no response...

:eyes:

Good God, I thought only Freepers would compare an act of religious and cultural sensitivity--i.e., wearing a scarf to cover the head when entering a mosque-- to advocating "honor killings, rape, female circumcision." Shameful...

[Scriptor Ignotus]

258. since you responded I guess I wasn't that ignorant

but let's see if you can rebut my arguments sans insults.

Why is one Islamic cultural practice ok and one is not? Requiring women to wear a scarf is ok but an honor killing is not. OK, I think everyone here agrees that honor killings should be banned. But why will you defend one cultural practice and not another? Is it because one passes your internal moral checkpoint while the other one doesn't? If so, then surely I have the ability to use my own internal moral checkpoint, as you did, and use it in accordance with my best judgement.

I personally judge the subservience of women in sharia-law countries to be morally repugnant. This includes forced hijab (ie Pakistan and Afghanistan). I understand contemporary Muslim women in other countries may choose to cover thier heads out of tradition or heritage or social norms or whatever. Fine. But to me, and to my internal moral checkpoint, it represents subservience to men and a repression of a woman's right to self-expression.

Do not presume that you are the supreme cultural arbiter, who can determine what can be criticized and what cannot be (and calling everyone ignorant or a freeper who disagrees with you). I honestly have no issue with Pelosi wearing a scarf out of respect, but I have a problem with you throwing stones at posters critical of draconian, sexist traditions.

I disagree fiercely with my Republican friends, but at the end of the day I am still friends with them. You can be critical and emphatic at the same time, I believe.

[Bridget Burke]

313. Who appointed YOU the "supreme cultural arbiter"?

Let your "internal moral checkpoint" govern your own behavior. We don't care about whom you "personally judge."

[Scriptor Ignotus]

328. i don't think i make that argument in my post

but if you'd like to interject things I didn't say or imply in my post I guess I can't stop you.

I felt "hlthe2b" was being unfair to a poster here and I wanted to call him/her on it. Point was supposed to be that we all bring our own worldview to the debate, so no need to reject someone's point of view out of hand or because they are attacking a different culture's practices. I'm not the best writer in the world so maybe I didn't verbalize that properly.

All the best.

-SI

[Madspirit]

331. I agree with you...TOTALLY

Whining about cultural sensitivity, cultural relativism...is usually a way to defend an abhorrent act. ...and when you hear a country whine about people not being culturally sensitive, it's usually to defend an abhorrent act they want to continue to perpetrate against their own, without criticism from anyone anywhere. Makes me puke. I have lots of Muslim friends, FROM Muslim countries. When most come here for graduate school, which is where I know most of them from, some keep the scarf but a lot don't.
It would be a very different thing if it was JUST religious and they had the choice in their country. Therein lies the problem. Most of those women in those countries that require veils and scarfs and burkas, etc....HAVE NO FUCKING CHOICE. How is that OK with anyone? I wouldn't give rat's ass if the women wanted to wear green tennis shoes on their heads. IT'S THAT THEY DON'T HAVE THE CHOICE THAT IS MORALLY REPUGNANT. Jeez.
Lee

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

28. Soliciting a woman's crotch is, somehow, more respectable than a veil?

Culturally speaking?

Give me a break!!!!

[pnwmom]

32. What are you talking about?

What is not respectable is men who claim that women need to be veiled in order to keep men from being overwhelmed by their baser urges.

[Colobo]

Keep in mind

that for some, Islamic sexism is just "an expression of a different culture", while Christian/Western sexism is evil...

Hypocrisy, isn't it?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

40. Oh, poo!!!! Why don't you be specific about the 'sexism' you assert.

What is the "Christian/Western sexism" you are talking about, specifically?

:rofl:

[Colobo]

44. Really?

One example: Virginity in women is seen as a virtue, and a rarity in men. A woman that express her sexuality freely with a number of men before getting married is considered a slut, while the man that does it is a stud, a real man.

[uppityperson]

49. women can wear pants, men can't wear dresses.

How about bras? Having to hide your nipples lest you offend! I do really hate that. Having to hide my nipples I mean. Minimal droopage, and even so who should care, but wtf is it with having to hide even little kids nipples?

[Colobo]

52. The construction of masculinity is as twisted as

the construction of the female subject in our societies. Both are extremely ridiculous, if you think about it.

[uppityperson]

57. However, I do think it respectful to be respectful when traveling like she is.

As a USAnian gvt official, good to be respectful of others cultures, be able to work with them, be taken seriously rather than dismissed out of hand.

[Colobo]

58. She's trying to be respectful, which is fine

still, it's still sexist.

[uppityperson]

65. True. However, I have had this thought also

(edited to add thought)
People covering their hair, or their clothes, not just to not "tempt those lascivious people who otherwise would be tempted" but also to make themselves equal. Sort of like school uniforms. If we are supposed to be frugal, not have excessive desires, sublimate oneself to whatever sort of god you believe in, why not cover your head, all look uniform rather than spending time, energy, money getting fancied up?

[Colobo]

75. Yeah... but men should do that kind of stuff as well

don't you think? Why limit it to a gender?

[uppityperson]

79. Yes. How about neckties?

Though I think they are more to emphasize the fact that the man has a penis than anything, still they are part of the "suit uniform" that is expected to be worn by many men. School uniforms also, for males and females.

[geardaddy]

206. Weren't neckties introduced to Western culture

from Turkey?

Just throwin' a bit of tangent in there.

[geardaddy]

219. Ooops.

Upon further research, apparently neckties originated in Croatia.

[shimmergal]

199. In theory - yes - and

I see some men walking around the world that I _wish_ would veil their ugly mugs! - but in point of fact, women tend to spend a lot more time, effort, and money getting their hair "right" than the average man does. In the olden days, when American women could wear hats or scarves, it was a good way to cope with a bad hair day.

[pnwmom]

142. Does that mean Middle Easterners should try to look like Westerners

when they travel in Western countries?

I don't have a problem with her wearing it in a Mosque, by the way. Only in government meetings, where I think it would send the wrong message. She isn't there as a woman, she's there as the Speaker of the House. And you don't see American male politicians dressing up in M.E. garb.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

198. Westerners are multi-cutlural.

We don't have customary dress.

So a hijab would be perfectly weastern.

[pnwmom]

227. A large majority of Americans still call themselves Christian.

And very few, Christian or Muslim, would consider hijab to be western dress.

[uppityperson]

306. How about a scarf on the head, without naming it?

[Mnemosyne]

216. They just hold hands and smooch.

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

[pnwmom]

86. I agree, that's wrong, too.

Just as it's insane when women are criticized for breastfeeding in public. That's the purpose of a breast! No one expects people to hide their mouths when they EAT. Why hide the nipple when you're nursing?

[uppityperson]

88. Why ever hide nipples?

The purpose of the breast is to feed infants. Why hide it even if you're not feeding them? Just because some man has decided it turns him on so you must always hide it or else you tempt him? How about when I am at work in a hospital, wearing a uniform and have to buy a camisole so my nipples don't show and tempt some poor patient? Yah, middle aged nipples, ooooooo.

[pnwmom]

144. I agree with you, actually. Always have.

What is it about woman's breasts that make them so much more sexual than men's breasts? Nothing. The only difference is that one is also a feeding machine and the other isn't.

[cgrindley]

151. Breasts are sexual

like it or not, the female breast, is sexualized and has been for... well... forever. You can try to kid yourself and chant "breasts are for feeding the young" but they are also very sexual.

[uppityperson]

185. So are toes.

sucking on toes is extremely sexual yet people wear sandals and get to go barefoot without problems (wash feet first). "forever"? American centric? Many places they are NOT considered something that needs covering up any more than toes are. And, why are mens nipple allowed to be seen?

[cgrindley]

201. Only to fetishists

Breasts are sexual characteristics, one does not need to be pathologized in order to appreciate them.

If you cannot distinguish between male and female nipples...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

220. Same with breasts.

In American culture, women cover their breasts. In Arab culture, women cover their hair.

I think these complaints have less to do with sexism, and more to do with xenophobia.

[cgrindley]

239. That's just silly

the Koran itself forbids the showing of the funbags, but it doesn't actually mention the hair. The sexualization of breasts has nothing to do with culture. They inherently *are* sexual things.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

260. Of course it's got to do with culture.

There are plenty of places where it's OK for a woman to expose her breasts. It's your culture that's sexualized breasts, and outlaws women for exposing them.

[cgrindley]

288. That doesn't follow

Just because a place tolerates the exposure of breasts has nothing to do with whether or not they are sexualized. Or are you claiming that since breast exposure in my homeland is legal (Canada) or in Europe... that breats are somehow de-sexualized in those places?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

293. If Nancy Pelosi went to Canada...

and chose not to expose her breasts, does that mean she's pandering to a sexist culture?

[liontamer]

300. no they're not

many cultures don't sexualize breasts. In fact, even in english culture it's only in the past couple of hundred years that they were sexualized. Now ankles, oh baby those are inherently sexual.

[cgrindley]

315. What are you going on about?

Song of Songs anyone?
Venus of Willendorf anyone?
Roman poetry anyone?
Sanskrit love poetry anyone?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Breasts have been sexualized across the Indo-European cultural spectrum for at least ALL of human pre-history and history.

[liontamer]

327. not consistently

and not across all regions. things fall in and out fashion all the time. About the only non genital body parts that are consistently viewed as sexual are buttocks and thin waists.

[cgrindley]

329. What about oxytocin?

If breasts weren't inherently sexual, then oxytocin would only be released during actual breast feeding.

[liontamer]

330. Don't be in too much of a rush to oversimplify neuroendocrinology

Oxytocin is released under lots of situations, and the effect that it ultimately has depends on many factors, including receptor organization, co-release with other hormones, and other situational factors. Oxytocin can be released at orgasm whether or not there has been any stimulation to the breasts and it is also released during breast feeding. Your assertion that oxytocin release somehow makes breasts sexual doesn't really hold.

[uppityperson]

303. Breasts "are" inherently for nursing/feeding babies.

No inherent sexuality, just for food. "funbags"? You are showing your true colors, aren't you?

[cgrindley]

316. They are also inherently for sex

like it or not. Sex. Sex. Sex. Such prudery.

[uppityperson]

321. HOW are breasts "inherently for sex"? They are for food.

Such fetishism. Such boobie madness in your mind. I guess you must be 1 of those "I find that attractive so therefore they must be attractive. I find that sexually attractive so therefore they must be inherently for sex." Same sort of thinking that makes these be necessary:


Must cover that sexual hair and those sexual curves since they tempt men.


Let me try this in simple words. Just because you find something sexually stimulating does not mean it is inherently for sex. Breasts are for feeding babies, which can happen after sex.

[cgrindley]

323. Ummm

why don't you familiarize yourself with the history of breasts in art, literature and culture? If you did so, you would learn that breasts have been sexualized culturally since prehistory. You could also familiarize yourself with the biological functionality of breasts as a sexual display. This is really really well known stuff. You should read about it. You could even start with a Desmond Morris book. They're in all the bookstores.

This idea that breasts are *only* for feeding young is really quite incorrect.

[uppityperson]

324. HOW are breasts "inherently for sex"? They are for food.

Still you won't answer the question.

[cgrindley]

326. Your question is absurd

Why are you doing this? It's ridiculous.

Why do you think that the human female is the *only* animal with permanently engorged breasts? Do you think that this is by accident?

[uppityperson]

333. Why are human females the *only* animal with perm engorged breasts?

OMG, you are too funny. Obviously because men find them sexy and humans don't reproduce enough! :sarcasm: end of contact.

[bettyellen]

292. not xenophobia to disapprove of excessive restrictions - and blame being put on women

the clothing issues is almost only a symbol of the full spectrum of ways a woman is limited and men are basically allowed to run amock and blame women- for tempting them. sorry, it's simply so fucked up because their lives are diminished. .

[uppityperson]

301. Nope, same as with breasts. Speaking of fetishes.

Toes ARE sensitive. Why must female nipples be covered and not male? Both of them are sensitive.

[cgrindley]

317. You can't possibly be serious

sorry... took me too long to figure out that you were just... you know... winding me up. Good joke.

[uppityperson]

322. I guess some people are just stuck, and DU isn't really the place

Stuck on infantalizing their sexuality by wanting to nurse on mama's breasts and DU isn't really the place to expand their knowledge of sexuality to other parts of the body. Best of luck with that.

[cgrindley]

325. Why are you being this way?

Come on. Get real. Breasts have a function in human sexuality beyond the feeding of babies and everyone absolutely everyone on planet earth knows it. It's always been the case.

Here are just a few articles for you to read--there are, you know, hundreds and hundreds of works on the topic. Quite a number of them even call breastfeeding itself a sexual act.

The breast/nipple/areola complex and human sexuality. By: Levin, Roy J.. Sexual & Relationship Therapy, May2006, Vol. 21 Issue 2, p237-249, 13p; DOI: 10.1080/14681990600674674; (AN 20750304)

The Well-Tempered Breast: Fostering Fluidity in Breastly Meaning and Function. By: Giles, Fiona. Women's Studies, Apr-Jun2005, Vol. 34 Issue 3/4, p301-326, 26p; DOI: 10.1080/00497870590964200; (AN 17575526)

Maternal sexuality and breastfeeding. By: Bartlett, Alison. Sex Education, Feb2005, Vol. 5 Issue 1, p67-77, 11p; DOI: 10.1080/146818142000301894; (AN 16607137)

Why is Dolly Crying? An Analysis of Silicone Breast Implants in America as an Example of Medicalization. By: Edelman, Helen S.. Journal of Popular Culture, Winter94, Vol. 28 Issue 3, p19-32, 14p; (AN 9511200647)

From Palaeolithic “Venus” up to the anthropomorphic statue-menhir: The ideological evolution of the human body in prehistoric art. By: Dimitriadis, George. International Congress Series, Jan2006, Vol. 1286, p7-12, 6p; DOI: 10.1016/j.ics.2005.09.151; (AN 20267145)

[uppityperson]

334. Cultures are different, changable. "it's always been the case",try reading this.

What is now, what you might consider "normal" and "has always been" hasn't always been and hasn't been normal often.

http://www.allnaturalbreastcare.com/sexhistberc.htm

The male obsession with female breasts is a fairly recent phenomenon from a historical viewpoint. In all types of ancient art medium, the female breast was usually exposed. Even in the Christian realm, paintings, sculptures, and drawings commonly and frequently depicted females with one or more uncovered breasts. The Sistine Chapel is adorned with female breasts and ancient artifacts depicting nudity seem to have far greater shock value in modern times than the artists would have believed possible in their time period. The first well-known written work on human sexuality that involved reference to breasts occurred during the 2nd century BC with the advent of the Karma Sutra. In Ancient Egypt, women accented their breasts with primitive cosmetics and exotic scents. However, body painting began much earlier with primitive man and female breasts received far less focus than facial features. In truth, there are no ancient social or cultural precedents to explain the current belief that female breasts are sexual magnets for males. Female breasts and sexuality did not become strongly connected until the repressive Victorian age when women were expected to cover more of their bodies. Strangely, during this same era, the female breast reached a zenith of sorts, as women's clothing was deliberately and provocatively designed to emphasize, enlarge, and expose as much of the female breast as possible without showing the nipples. Thereafter in western societies, the female breast continued its onward march towards becoming a social icon and sexual projectile.


Cultural Differences

It is also worth noting that American attitudes about the sexuality of breasts are hardly universal and may even represent a minority viewpoint in the larger worldly view. There are widespread cultural differences in male and female attitudes about female breasts and the role they play in sexual attraction. In so called primitive societies, the female breast was seldom covered. Eastern cultures and European attitudes about female breasts and nudity in general are quite different. For example, at one extreme, women in middle eastern countries are not allowed to expose any part of their breasts in public; yet, in most western European countries, females often and routinely go topless at beaches and public bathing facilities. As in most things, cultural differences abound but the question remains for American women. How did American males, specifically, become so obsessed with female breasts as objects of sexual desire and attraction?..(more)

Or here is a link to a book about societies, cultures, breasts.
http://www.amazon.com/History-Breast-Marilyn-Yalom/dp/0345388941

[Ino]

127. I saw this plastic surgery program...

where this guy with severe manboobs was having them fixed. On the before photo, they fuzzed-out his nipples (but not on the "after" photo). It was too funny :rofl:

[pnwmom]

145. Oh, that IS funny! n/t

[ronnie624]

197. Lol!

That illustrates the nonsensical views of gender and sexuality found in the US. But many see no hypocrisy, in endlessly carping about Iran.

Sexism in Iranian society, is something the Iranians will have to struggle with, just as US Americans must struggle with the same element, found in our own society.

I know it isn't easy for many Americans to suspend their belief in their exceptionalism, and mind their own damned business, but if we ever hope to get along with other people in the world, we're all going to have to give it an earnest try.

[Tunkamerica]

72. that depends on how old you are

I don't think that's true anymore for people in my generation. The girls I know have way more sex than the guys. And no one, including me, thinks anything is wrong with that. No one thinks virginity in either sex is all that special. That in itself is a problem, but the gender roles have become much more balanced where sex is involved. Of course, experiences will vary.

[Colobo]

78. I'm 23

and yeah, for me it's not a problem and for many in our generation that is not the case, but the "slut" and the "pimp" are still part of our culture. Watch MTV and there you have it.

And also, the US is a pretty open society. Go down south and you'll see something very different.

[Leopolds Ghost]

141. That has nothing to do with Christianity

It is a basic feature of gender dynamics in many societies, dating from
Cro Magnon days.

[pnwmom]

55. In the western world,

women are sometimes blamed for being raped, if they have worn the "wrong" clothing, for example. That is sexist.
It's also sexist when women in eastern cultures -- who don't cover themselves "properly" -- are blamed for the advances of men.

[pnwmom]

Yes, it is. When women are oppressed, it's called "cultural." And it's good.

When men are oppressed, it's called "political." And it's bad.

[uppityperson]

43. "soliciting a woman's crotch"? What did I miss? nt

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

63. We accept solicitations the Muslim culture finds reprehensible.

That's all.

Take a looksee at the tactics used in U.S. sponsored torture chambers: naked men piled upon one another, womens' monthly blood being smeared upon their bodies, wires tied to to their sexual parts, etc. (ON EDIT) Raping their kids and wives in front of them.

Make sense, yet?

[uppityperson]

69. I don't accept torture, not any of that stuff.

Is "naked men piled upon one another, womens' monthly blood being smeared upon their bodies, wires tied to to their sexual parts, etc. (ON EDIT) Raping their kids and wives in front of them" a "solicitation"?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

80. I love the post below: Bush should dress as the men!!!!

How come the men's dress isn't even mentioned? They "dress up" in accordance with their culture, too!!!!

Yes?!?!?!

[uppityperson]

83. What? what post, what men, what men's dress?

[pnwmom]

87. It was my post. I said I'm waiting for Bush to wear the male headgear.

I'm not exactly holding my breath on that. LOL.

[uppityperson]

90. Got it, thanks. Talk about solicitations (torture) being accepted and head coverings...

wondering what was going on about. About Mrbush wearing head cover? snort. As if. He doesn't have to because he's The Decider.

[pnwmom]

84. WE do not accept that. Not WE DU'ers, nor WE as Americans.

Our government has fallen into the hands of a corrupt, sick leadership. WE Americans can hardly wait for the Bush reign to end.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

94. You're right.

You are right.

[Colobo]

85. In many Muslim nations

Including Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan and Mauritania, homosexuality is punished with the death penalty, including public execution in Saudi Arabia. In Bahrain, the Maldives, Algeria and Qatar is punished with jail time.

Morally bankrupt policies are everywhere, and no, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DOESN'T ACCEPT OR SUPPORTS TORTURE.

[ShortnFiery]

126. Yet GITMO is still open and we can only guess about continued

torture. That is done in OUR NAME.

A man was just released through DNA evidence after 22 years incarcerated. It makes one ponder, "How many innocents have been put to death because they could not afford a quality lawyer?"

As long as GITMO is open, *The rest of the World* believes that AMERICA ACCEPTS AND SUPPORTS TORTURE.

To call them "backward" or "savage" is the height of absurdity and downright hypocritical.

BTW some of the elderly women in my liberal Catholic Parish still wear head scarves, by choice. In the same vein, I consider Pelosi's choice to wear a scarf as a small, but noticeable gesture of respect for some within the Muslim culture. Nothing more, nothing less. If it can help to increase respect and serve as a catalyst to increased dialog between the USA and Countries within the M.E., then, IMO, God Bless Her, a peacemaker. :grouphug:

As an individual who has lived in Iran, I can say with veracity that you don't get anywhere by bucking the system from the outside. And please note, within the USA, I'm the ultimate punk rock girl, anti-authoritarian broad. However, one must pick their battles and be smart when dealing with other cultures ... as the old adage goes, "When in Rome ..."

[cgrindley]

146. Absolutely

It's high time that we stopped putting fucking cultural sensitivity above women's rights. Dammit, there ARE absolute standards for human rights, and idiotic religious beliefs do NOT supercede them.

[LanternWaste]

203. But those "absolute" standards change over time...

But those "absolute" human standards change over time and all the time, rendering them "relative" standards.

Let's face it, there is no absolute cultural standard. Never has been that I'm aware of, and I certainly don't see one ever being in place unless we all become Pod People.

As long as there are individuals with imagination, thought and will, there will be different standards in different places and at different times, regardless of whether those standards are based on idiotic religions, idiotic governments, idiotic mores, idiotic people, etc...

[cgrindley]

205. No they don't

They're absolutes. And any culture that does not value equality for women is a shitty shitty culture. Any culture that valued slavery was a shitty culture. These moral absolutes do not change.

[LanternWaste]

218. I agree with one of your themes...

I fail to see how morality can be an absolute when it's really nothing more than a conjoined series of ideas put forth by human beings in various places and at various times; as it seems to me that any human thought process is by definition, lacking in 'absolute'.


I agree with one of your themes, though. There are indeed many aspects of every culture that is "shitty". If I find a culture that has a zero-sum of "shittiness" in it, I'll be sure to let you know if you do the same for me. Kay? :)

[SemperEadem]

287. ok, explain the male Sikh and his turban

Since your arguement is any custom forces women but not men to cover their hair and is thus disrespectful.

Why do Sikhs wear turbans?

The Guru has given his Sikh specific instructions to keep his or her natural form as created by God. Thus, all hair is maintained, uncut, and untrimmed. The Guru has given his Sikh a standard of dress which distinguishes him or her as a human being dedicated to a life of truthful living. The Guru has instructed his Sikhs to maintain high moral character, symbolized by the wearing of the steel bracelet, ("kara") and to stand prepared to defend righteousness, wearing the "kirpan" or sword.

The long hair of a Sikh is tied up in a Rishi knot (Joora) over the solar center (top of the head), and is covered with a turban, usually five meters of cotton cloth. (The man’s solar center is nearer the front of the head. The woman's solar center is further back.) A female Sikh may also wear a chuni (chiffon scarf) draped over it. All Sikhs cover their head while in Gurdwara. With the growing awareness of the non-sexist nature of Sikh Dharma and the Sikh lifestyle, many Sikh women wear turbans on a consistent basis, as the men do. The turban of a Sikh is his or her primary identifying feature. It is a statement of belonging to the Guru, and it is a statement of the inner commitment of the one who wears it. The uncut hair and the turban are a declaration to live in accordance with, and if necessary die in support of, the Teachings of the Sikh Gurus and the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. Regardless of the circumstances or the type of employment or activity, a Sikh keeps his or her form and identity as a Sikh. Clothes are modest, and exemplary of the identity and character of a soldier-saint.

[uppityperson]

307. That is a good question and good example of men's dress/hair coverage.

[frogcycle]

308. women in France go topless at the beach - also Australia

it is disrespectful for Americans to demand that women but not men cover their breasts. It is sexist beyond belief. It suggests there is something bad, sinful about breasts. Breasts should be the very symbol of femininity - they dramatize the fact that women can bear and nourish babies and men cannot. But in our perverted society women are not even tolerated nursing their babies in public. It is treated as shameful, embarrassing, when it should be admired. People should look and go "aaawwwww" as they would at a puppy. But no, we have religious zealots who equate breasts with sex and demand that they be hidden. We have allowed those prejudices to become the law of the land. And if a frenchwoman were to come here and sunbathe topless, or nurse her infant, she would offend the masses, in many locales might even be arrested.

[TwilightGardener]

7. Why revulsion--for feminist/oppression reasons?

[Erika]

8. You're wrong. I used to place a cover on my head for Catholic Mass

Do you not remember this?

[pnwmom]

19. I do. And I remember the relief when I didn't have to look for anything

to put on my head anymore.

The Catholic Church dropped that custom for good reason -- it was grounded in the sexism of the Church. The problem is that they stopped with the easy stuff, like dropping that requirement.

[Colobo]

27. The idea of women having to hide their bodies (their hair, in this case)

Like if there was something inherently bad about them is extremely negative and oppressive.

[pnwmom]

33. It is. And I'm particularly aware of this since that custom

changed in my childhood. It had a lot of impact. It felt good.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

34. Well, I don't feel compelled to show my belly or breasts because,...

,...I CHOOSE to share those private parts of me with ONLY a special person in my life.

Is that 'oppressive' in your mind?

[pnwmom]

37. Nope. I'm modest myself. It's fine when it's a CHOICE.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

54. So, you believe there is no choice?

When was the last time you visited the M.E.?

I confess that the extremist occupations by 'western' nations have incited Muslim retaliation. However, we are talking about human beings, holding both beliefs AND CHOICES,...and, our fellow human beings want the freedom to choose something different from our occupation.

I am trying to wrap myself around your perception.

[pnwmom]

81. I have friends here who are from Iraq and Iran and who have been

there recently. They don't wear scarves or veils here, but they feel pressure to do it there.

You're not fooling anyone. In many countries of the Middle East, women ARE pressured to wear head covering, whether they want to or not.

[Marrah_G]

188. When they can walk freely without the scarf, BY CHOICE , then and only then, is it worn by choice.

[Colobo]

41. You choose? What would happen

if you go out tomorrow to work showing your breasts? Or if I go to work without pants or underwear, showing my penis to everyone?

Apples and oranges.

[Hatalles]

62. Why do breasts and genitals have to be covered up?

To some conservative elements within Islam, female hair is a sexualized body part as well.

BTW, is that a random pic in your sig line? That guy looks like someone I used to know...

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

82. Why NOT?

:shrug:

What do we respect?

[Hatalles]

97. I'm not arguing breasts and genitals should NOT be covered up.

Just saying a woman's hair is perceived similarly by some conservative elements within Islam. :)

[Leopolds Ghost]

147. Apples and oranges? How so? What would happen, indeed?

You would get arrested for "public indecency" and depending on the circumstances might be permanently charged as a sex offender for flashing people in public.

Yep, them mores must be "religious in origin"... that's why some ME countries have been enforcing veils and burkhas for 1000s of years before Mohammed, while others never did, and still don't...

Gee, according to the Bible, there was a time when Westerners weren't ashamed of their bodies.

Yes, I am playing devil's advocate here (no pun intended).

[cgrindley]

154. It doesn't have anything to do with religion

no one wants to see a floppy hairy stinking penis dangling and jangling down the street, and, if the truth be told, the people who would embrace public nudity are probably the people who shouldn't. I've got nothing against the human body as long as it's in good physical shape, but I'm 40, and I don't think that I should be showing anything off anymore. Ditto goes for 99% of the people out there.

[pnwmom]

148. Um, I think the laws that apply to going without bottoms apply to everyone

on an equal opportunity basis.

It's the top wearing that's more controversial.

[seaglass]

272. And they would probably think that women who display their

body parts and paint their faces in order to be appreciated have no self-respect.

[Psephos]

56. Yes, as a Catholic, I do remember it

And I was glad to see it go.

The religious basis for head coverings in Catholic practice was different than that in Muslim practice, however. In Catholic practice, it represented purity before God; in Muslim, purity before other men.

The Hadith mentions female coverings in a multitude of places. Muslim scholars generally hold that a woman should cover her body to various degrees, and walk and dress in a way which does not draw sexual attention to her. The head covering, and other more complete garments, are symbolic of a woman's sexual unavailability to all except her husband. They are, in other words, property markers.

That's why I find them offensive. Medieval sensibilities about women's chattel status in society are now fully obsolete and must be cleaned from world practice. I have no problem saying that in this instance the Western view is more enlightened.

I notice that some claim the hijab does not signify oppression, but those for whom it does are not exactly free to state their actual views.

These are my current opinions. It's only through discussion with those who hold different opinions that one can grow.

:)

[Nay]

169. Yeah, what Psephos said. nt

[Marrah_G]

176. Did you have to wear it outside of mass?

Did you have to cover every inch of your skin so you wouldn't force men to rape you (simply by being female)? People yell and scream at the SLIGHTEST hint of discrimination here but when it comes to the middle east it is "Cultural".

If Nancy Pelosi is walking into a mosque then yes, cover the hair. That is a religious building.

The rest of the time she is there as a representative of OUR country and should never don garb who's very invention was to subjugate women, keep them invisable and submissive so as not to tempt males. We have fought hard for equal rights in this country and frankly I do not want our first female speaker of the house to go to foriegn if she is going to be treated as anything less then a COMPLETE equal by her peers within that country.

[Colobo]

9. I agree with you 100%.

[uppityperson]

25. I think you mean hijab unless she was mimicking a gvt official

Hijab: The headscarf worn by Muslim women, sometimes including a veil that covers the face except for the eyes.
A hajib from Arabic الحاجب was a government official in Al-Andalus (Spain) and Egypt. They began as chamberlains but by 756 had evolved to be equivalent to a vizier.

[Psephos]

31. Thanks, already caught my typo :-)

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

39. Oh my ghod!

She put a government official on her head??!! I can see why some would object.

[Hatalles]

53. I'm not sure you "understand" why women wear the hijab.

I tend to stay away from these discussions because they just end up becoming a waste of my time... some people are too hunkered down in their mindsets to think about things in different ways.

Different women wear the hijab for different reasons. Additionally, over the last twenty years, we've begun seeing more and more critques of eurocentric/western feminism. You can begin exploring here:

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~elguindi/AARvuVeil.htm

[Psephos]

67. I'm not sure you understand that you lose me as soon as you condescend to me

The part about putting "understand" in scare quotes isn't cool. Why do you imply your understanding is superior to mine? Because your opinion is different? Give me a good argument or evidence, but leave the other stuff out. Then respect that we may still reach different conclusions. I'll happily do the same for you.

It's surprising how few forum participants understand that you can not both educate and insult someone in the same post.

Peace.

[uppityperson]

71. It's surprising how few forum participants understand that you can not both educate and insult someo

"It's surprising how few forum participants understand that you can not both educate and insult someone in the same post. Peace" :rofl:

[Psephos]

73. QED n/t

[uppityperson]

76. !

:toast:

[Hatalles]

95. You started it. =)

Considering that I've been brought up around Muslim women from many different countries (hijab-wearing and non-hijab-wearing) my entire life, have been to the ME and South Asia, I think I have at least a tad bit of a better understanding of the hijab, its meanings, and all its manifestations.

There's plenty of evidence abound and the academic discourse on the veil/hijab already began its shift years ago. I've heard enough of the other side of the argument over the years and quite frankly, the rhetoric doesn't match up with the reality I've experienced.

I won't ever make a final judgement on the hijab because I know the hijab means different things in different contexts. But I guess some would call that a conclusion... ?

Salam.

[pnwmom]

155. Psephos's post was about when women are "compelled" to wear the veil,

as they are in some areas. Whatever may be true about the different reasons women have for wearing the veil, when they do it because they are compelled to (and men are excluded from the requirement) then it is a sign of their subordination.

[Hatalles]

172. Maybe..

It just struck me as strongly implying that all or most Muslim women who wear the hijab are forced into it. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it... maybe, maybe not. I've just had bad experiences w/ some liberals in the past. My mother (who chooses to wear the hijab) has had to deal w/ some really rude insinuations made to her face from some people who approach her w/ their preconceived notions about why she wears it. I still haven't forgotten that DU poll either where a significant chunk of people (I think 40-some percent) voted "YES" in a poll with a photo of a smiling young Muslim woman that asked "Is this woman oppressed?"

[pnwmom]

226. I think that most Muslim women who wear hijab in Western countries

are doing it because they choose to. (Except for women who are so isolated from the broader culture, and so surrounded by fundamentalist relatives, that they feel they don't have a choice.)

But women who wear headcoverings in countries like Saudia Arabia and Iran cannot be said to be doing it out of choice, because choice requires true freedom to say no.

[Hatalles]

241. Well, I haven't been to SA and Iran, so I can't say...

I have been to Bahrain, Dubai, and Pakistan, and can certainly say it is a choice. Women walk around w/out headscarves over there, everywhere.

[pnwmom]

253. You don't have to have travelled to Saudi Arabia and Iran to know this.

Just do some reading, or talk to Muslims from those countries. I have.

Are you seriously going to tell me you've never heard about the religious police? One of the things they do is enforce the veil.

[pnwmom]

104. You're right that different women wear it for different reasons.

The only reason I object to is if it's pressure from other people.

[Hatalles]

114. Same here. nt

[bklyncowgirl]

157. When a man goes into a Synogogue, he is required to put on a Yarmulke

If some prominent American Christian leader--let's say Pat Robertson, went to Israel and refused to put on a Yarmulke in a Synogogue we'd be screaming bloody blue murder about his arrogance and lack of sensitivity.

Had Pelosi refused to put on the scarf, she would also, very properly be criticized. I don't see this as any difference.

The very fact that this very powerful American woman is in a Moslem country is a very strong message in itself. Let's hope that she does us proud.

When I travel, I try as best I can to respect local customs, particularly with respect to dress, as best I can, whether I agree with them or not. I would expect any American official to do the same.

[pnwmom]

160. I agree with her wearing it in a Mosque.

But not in a government meeting where she's there as a high ranking representative of the U.S. government.

I also thought the President of Ireland was correct when she didn't wear a head covering to meet Pope John Paul, as Nancy Reagan and Laura Bush have done. The Irish President and the Pope were meeting as two Heads of State, and it wouldn't have been appropriate.

[bklyncowgirl]

171. From what I understand, she only wore it on her head in the Mosque

She wore it around her neck at other times. Perfectly appropriate and practical in a conservative country--she wouldn't need to hold things up waiting for her scarf flunky to bring up the Speaker's culturally appropriate head covering.

[Retrograde]

243. sounds extremely thoughtful and considerate

observing the appropriate local custom while not calling undue attention to herself by calling for her headgear. Not to mention showing forethought - she anticipated the possibility of visiting a religious site, and dressed for the contingency. Plus, by wearing the scarf in different ways in different situations, she subtly emphasized the separation of church and state we hold dear.

[Clark2008]

167. I understand it - probably more than you since I used to

be married to a Muslim (and I never converted) - and it doesn't repulse me.

[Matariki]

182. I don't know. It's not like she put on a burka - she covered her head

She's being respectful. When I went to Italy I put on long sleeves in the middle of summer when visiting churches although I'm not a christian. It seemed respectful even if I don't agree with the guilt and fear of women's sexuality built into the religion.

[treestar]

184. This is taking place on a different plane

If we scold others about their culture when we're trying to negotiate with them, we'll get nowhere.

I don't believe for a moment Peloso goes along with repression of women. But that's not the fight here.

[Rose Siding]

319. I do understand it and I still feel admiration

Peace

[question everything]

335. Thank you. Agree with you

Would she wear a burka if this was the custom?

Look at the British soldiers that were released from Iran, how the sole woman there had to cover her head.

[Common Sense Party]

2. Huh. I saw her on the news in the street, sans scarf. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

4. She put her scarf on as a hijab before entering a mosque, IIRC n/t

[Common Sense Party]

14. Ah. Gotcha.

Ignorant question here: as a general rule, are non-Muslims often allowed in mosques? In the Middle East, that is?

[Kelly Rupert]

22. As a general rule, yes,

though there are a few hardliners who say that holy places shouldn't be tainted yadayadayada. Most people are cool with interlopers as long as they show respect.

Think of it like this: you wouldn't imagine a Catholic would be upset if a Muslim were to walk into a church respectfully during non-service hours, honestly appreciating the beauty and spirituality. You would imagine they would have a problem, on the other hand, if our Muslim tourist walked in wearing a loud T-shirt and shorts, taking flash photos during a service.

[pnwmom]

23. Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.

[Leopolds Ghost]

150. So this was no different than Bill Clinton putting on a yarmulke in a synagogue.

Where was the debate about that?

[ElizabethDC]

5. I believe she only wore the scarf when she went inside a mosque n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

13. She was wearing it around her neck at other times n/t

[Erika]

3. A very thoughtful post

Mrs. Pelosi placed the scarf on her head prior to going into a sacred mosque. She's got real class.

[Kelly Rupert]

10. Yes, it seems, she has.

It's from a visit to Tajikstan. Not sure about the date, and it's a crappy photo, but she's clearly wearing it.

[pnwmom]

11. Rice travels as a representative of our government, not as a woman.

I won't blame Rice for not wearing a scarf. The female President of Ireland doesn't wear scarves when she travels, either.

The requirement that women (but not men) cover their heads disrespects women.

[Erika]

16. Entering churches demands a certain etiquette

As I said I wore a head covering going into Catholic mass.

[pnwmom]

42. I agree. It was only in a later post that this was clarified --

that she wore it in a Mosque. I don't have any problem with that.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

21. Um, culturally speaking, it is a symbol of respect for women.

You didn't know that? :shrug:

[pnwmom]

45. No, it's about the subordination of women.

The idea is that women have to cover themselves so that they are safe from men's lust. It's the men who should be restraining themselves, not the women.

I wouldn't have any problem with it if both men and women had to wear something on their heads.

[Colobo]

48. Exactly.

The portrayal of the female body as an object of lust that needs to be covered implies very negative things...

like, for example, that women might be guilty of being raped if they "showed too much", which is BS.

[uppityperson]

51. nipples. bras. why?

[pnwmom]

60. I don't know. Why?

I remember seeing this great picture of a woman breastfeeding her baby, completely unselfconscious, while she stood there talking to the President of Venezuela.

Whatever other problems Venezuela has, I thought that was an amazing picture.

[Colobo]

61. You know, sexism is terrible in Latin America

much worse than over here. Much, much worse... don't let a picture fool you.

[Hatalles]

122. Do you perceive bras and clothing tops as oppressive to women?

Because that's the point... in some conservative sectors of Islam, a woman's hair is considered just as sexualized a body part as the breasts.

If the answer's yes, well, at least you're consistent. :)

[pnwmom]

158. I don't think bras should be required on women any more than on busty men.

But when you have bigger breasts, or sensitive nipples, they can make things more comfortable. (Maybe guys ought to try wearing sports bras for support so they won't end up looking like Gov. Terminator does these days.) :)

I do think that laws against women going topless, but that allow big breasted men to go topless, are clearly unfair. Either make the requirement dependent on bust size, or repeal the law.

Not that I'm going to be running around that way anytime soon. . . or ever.

[Hatalles]

170. Right...

But you do understand why some women would choose to wear the hijab when they consider their hair a sexualized object? IMHO, it's the same choice a Western woman make in putting on a shirt and covering up her breasts, what they consider a sexualized object. Only, when a Western woman chooses to cover up, she's not likely to be labeled 'subjugated' or 'oppressed' by women from other cultures where nudity is the norm and breasts are not seen as a sexualized object.

[pnwmom]

223. I think the only reason head hair may sexualized is because it's been

made into one by making women cover it up. It's a chicken and egg problem -- which came first?

[Hatalles]

240. That still doesn't make it any more different than covering up breasts.

When did breasts become a sexualized object in Western society? It's another chicken-egg thing.

[pnwmom]

251. As I've said, I don't think there should be laws against women going topless

unless there are laws requiring men to cover their breasts, too.

[Hatalles]

256. But if there were no laws against women going topless...

... and women felt 'compelled' or 'forced' to cover their breasts, is that a matter of choice or are they being oppressed? You stated that you don't believe there should be laws against women going topless yet you also have stated that it's not something you would do. In this sense, are you being forced or compelled to cover up?

Every Muslim woman I've ever known is against laws that require hijabs, niqabs, burqas, etc. But many of them still prefer to wear some sort of head covering.

IMHO, a sizable number of people (DUers included, as can be evidenced by that poll w/ the simple question and the picture of a woman in hijab) instinctively label Muslim women who wear the hijab 'oppressed'. I'm not saying this is the case w/ you, I don't know you well enough... but I really have a problem with anyone who voted "yes" in that poll.

[pnwmom]

257. It's not a choice if you feel compelled or forced, with or without laws.

Wearing clothing is practical. Bras offer support, and shirts keep women and men from getting sunburned or spilling hot food on their skin. But in places where men don't wear shirts -- say, mowing the lawn on a hot day, or on the beach -- I don't see why women should be compelled to.

And by the way, there are lots of things that I think should be legal that I don't do myself. I don't drink alcohol, for instance. But I don't think we should go back to Prohibition.

[Hatalles]

265. But are they being compelled or forced into it

... if they're wearing clothing tops for the sake of covering up their breasts, sexual objects? Honestly, I don't think most women wear shirts or blouses for those practical reasons. The same argument can be made for a headscarves... e.g. the keffiyeh for protection from the sun.

[pnwmom]

268. That may be true in the U.S. But not in Saudi Arabia, Iran,

or Afghanistan, where women are compelled to cover, whether they want to or not.

[Hatalles]

285. There’s certainly a problem in countries where women MUST cover.

But I really wonder how prevalent the problem is… I tend to feel that popular fiction and lazy media has convinced too many of us that all Muslim women are oppressed. Mohja Kahf’s book “Western Representation of the Muslim Woman: From Odalisque to Termagant” is an excellent resource in examining how Western perception of Muslim women has changed from sexually intimidating to oppressed and subjugated.

I think you can see the double standard though… that even if Western women were allowed to go about in public topless, most of them would choose to cover up their breasts because it is seen a sexual object in our society (even though it isn’t in some other cultures). Only, in places where female hair is seen as a sexual object akin to the breasts, we’re more likely to label those who choose to cover “oppressed” than others are likely to label Western women who choose to cover their breasts as oppressed.

[distantearlywarning]

173. I can tell you why.

I'm a 38D. I don't know about other women, but women with breasts the size of mine WANT to wear bras when they're out walking about (and it has nothing to do with the perceptions of other people or what they think I should or shouldn't wear). If society suddenly changed and decided that not wearing a bra in public was no big deal, I'd still wear a bra. I wear a bra in the privacy of my own home if I am doing anything the slightest bit athletic, even something as minor as cleaning, because it just feels better.

I very much doubt that this is the case with a headscarf, at least in terms of there being a good physical reason for wearing one.

[liontamer]

304. in a hot desert country, a headscarf is your friend

and if you're going out in the desert you're really going to wish you had a burqa to protect you from the heat/sand/sun. It's not as though traditional dress for men in the middle east is the speedo.

It's true, that these garments have become politicized. It's also true that many women are oppressed, but there's nothing inherently offensive about the garment. If all women everywhere were free from any and all forms of oppression, there would still be people wearing these garments. Heck, there are many days when I wish I could wear a burqa, but don't because I don't want to be offensive.

I think we should separate real issues that women have from the more superficial markers such as dress.

[uppityperson]

305. I understand comfort for some, have been blessed without the need for that.

Wondering why things change, like ankles used to be considered sexual, not breasts (at least meaning having to cover them up).

[BeyondGeography]

12. I'm all for Nancy wearing the headscarf

but what I really wanted to clear up for myself here was the hajib/hijab confusion.

It's hijab:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajib

[pnwmom]

46. As long as Bush has to wear the male version.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

74. LMFAO!!!! Oh, no one EVER mentions THAT apparel!!!!

:rofl:

NEVER, EVER!!!!

:rofl:

[pnwmom]

92. What I can't get over is how HOT everyone must be in those veils,

wearing all those clothes in 100 degree and higher temperatures.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

I guess it's akin to our attraction to men in uniform, no matter the weather.

Same culturally-dictated admiration.

Yes? :shrug:

[pnwmom]

101. I'm not attracted to that look, personally. But I think they have short-sleeve

uniforms, don't they?

[uppityperson]

17. That is nice, show respect for other cultures.

[mudesi]

18. It's called diplomacy

And while I disagree with the Muslim culture in regards to how they treat women, I understand that in order to have any sort of diplomatic progress, this is the kind of thing that has to be done.

Unfortunately, the Bush administration doesn't understand what diplomacy is.

[NormanYorkstein]

26. Pelosi is doing a good job

It's too bad the GOP had to hire an incompetent hack like Rice, but they did. At least Pelosi can do a credible job representing America in the middle east.

[Erika]

36. Pelosi might wear a scarf but she's got more balls than the GOP

She reaches out throught common humanity bonds. The Cowboy is still into John Wayne movies.

[NormanYorkstein]

130. I feel much better about our diplomatic efforts

now that we have some balance and some smart people like Pelosi. The moron cowboys who go around threatening people are pathetic amateurs who do nothing but hurt America. Seriously Pelosi is doing great so far and I support her efforts in the mid east. That's where we need serious diplomacy and not jokes like Meiers and Rice or criminals like Negroponte.

[kimsterdemster]

47. It's a scarf...

Who care's? :shrug:

[Tunkamerica]

77. My mom wears a scarf sometimes...

...but she also eats pork, so I don't think she's a terrorist.

[Leopolds Ghost]

152. Does Pelosi eat the white man's pork?

Before we proceed with praising or condemning her, we must know. :-)

[mmonk]

50. I can see how the republicans will use that

for a photo op.

[Psephos]

68. They already have

Check out Drudge.

Peace.

[Leopolds Ghost]

153. Someone send this picture to Drudge:

[mmonk]

181. Good one.

Exposing hypocrisy is something I enjoy.

[Eurobabe]

59. Kickin it for Nancy, who has shown the most class in 6.5 yrs

of this nightmare. FWIW, my .02 cents on this - when in Rome do as the Romans do. There is nothing wrong with showing respect and understanding to other cultures while one is among the people.

Everyone who is bitching about women wearing hijabs is looking at this practice through a westo-centric viewpoint. I know afew things, I studied Islam and its architecture, and

I also studied Philosophy - trust me there ain't really no way that you are going to get inside the mindset of another. It's impossible. The best you can aim for is dialogue and basic understanding.

[DCKit]

64. Showing modesty and respect for their culture is a very smooth move

What, she's supposed to go there and accomplish diplomacy by flaunting her ignorance? Wrong party folks.

Nancy had the sense to LEARN a few things before the trip, unlike some others I could name.

[Nutmegger]

66. I've heard nothing but hate from the RW pigs about this.

It's so refreshing, after how many years, to see actual diplomacy. Bush Inc continues to thumb their noses at everyone else, maybe let Condi loose for a few days, and they call that diplomacy. Disgusting.

Thank you Speaker Pelosi.

[madrchsod]

70. well according to a bbc reporter-----

the syrians are excited that she has come to their country...so why not show that one is wise enough to have respect

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

89. I would never have guessed my simple observation would burn up DU,...

,...without any recommendations *LOL*. We're so petty,...it seems.

[uppityperson]

93. 1 recommendation. nt

[pnwmom]

96. The subject of women's veiling always draws a lot of strong feelings here.

The last time I remember, the discussion involved an Australian woman (not a Muslim) who had been raped by a group of young Muslim men. The Imam of the young men (who had emigrated from Saudi Arabia, I think) blamed the woman for her own rape, comparing her to "raw meat" that attracts cats. He said it was her fault because of her attire and because she didn't stay home where she'd be safe.

[Colobo]

102. I remember that case

and it's the same argument the West likes to use with rape victims as well.

Sexism is the same, everywhere.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

108. But, that was an example of a crime,...not an example of choice.

Why are members so resistent to the possibility that there ARE, IN FACT, women who choose cultural symbols as an identity of their lives? I do not get the supposition that, ANYONE can dictate others' identities: that ANYONE can dictate others' freedom to choose based upon a superior/arrogant position.

:shrug:

[Colobo]

112. What makes you think

that cultural pratices and symbols can't be inherently sexist or negative, even if those who embrace them don't realize it?

[uppityperson]

113. Is sexist always negative? Serious question I just had.

[Colobo]

119. Maybe in some cases, it might not be

but I'm honestly having a hard time imagining one of those cases, because it is usually used to justify certain social inequality. "Women are good for this, men are good for that", "Women naturally are like this, men are naturally like that": dichotomies that give and deny the subjects involved certain characteristics arbitrarily...

[uppityperson]

123. 1 of the shocks of my adult life was having a child of opposite sex than me/my sibs

I grew up in a family with all the kids being 1 sex. We did everything to some extent, had to, though the culture of the times had more sexual dimorphistic actions than now. So, I had a child of the opposite sex. I was enlightened, believing nuture was stronger than nature. Trucks and dolls. Tools of all sorts to play with. Dress up and costumes from the entire range of whatever. I was amazed at how nature turned out. Yes, nurture definitely helped modify it all, and Jr is now, well, interesting mix. But it was quite a surprise, even before getting into school age times.

Sexism. I can mostly basically see it being negative, though can see times to have the sexes be apart and do apart things also. Not sure if that is sexism or not though. Had a friend attend a single sex highschool and was very glad because could focus on studies, not boy/girl/boy/boy/girl/girl/etc stuff. I'm tired, thoughts roaming. Night.

[pnwmom]

235. Yes, same as racist is always negative.

[pnwmom]

161. Of course women can choose to wear a cultural symbol.

But when she is compelled to, then by definition, it's not a choice.

A woman who chooses to wear a veil in the US is likely to be asserting something about her culture. (Unless she is living in a close-knit community and her relatives make her do it.) On the other hand, a woman in rural Afghanistan cannot be said to be wearing the veil out of choice. Her choice will only be real when she has the freedom to do otherwise.

[Dammit Ann]

115. right on that.

good on you for noticing. it does get a little tiresome around here sometimes...

[lvx35]

91. Nice, and totally appropriate.

Though in many tribal societies (and beaches in south France) women go topless, when they come to America we expect them to wear tops. Its just respect for our culture. Same thing with the scarf.

[Bakunin]

103. I don't like it

we are giving a free pass to something because of a perceived 'respect' toward 'culture'. This same culture would stone me because I am gay. Maybe the Speaker could cut off my hands in a public square as a sign of 'respect' for the local customs.

[Colobo]

105. I made that point some above (post 85)

and nobody has dared to touch it. I wonder why... :)

[uppityperson]

110. It is politics. Being able to work with them is a good thing.

Yes, sexism and sexual orientism is bad, very hurtful. However, by wearing a headscarf in a mosque, she now can work with them, perhaps to change things in the whole world for the better. Would you prefer to just have the fundamentalists just face off?

[bumblebee1]

116. The only way that happens Bakunin

is if you're caught stealing.

[Colobo]

120. Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_of_homosexuality

[uppityperson]

124. death vs cutting off hands

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lvx35]

125. I disagree.

Muslim culture is a valid culture, not something to be put in quotes as you do. Now you can take parts of it and criticize them in themselves and that's fine, but morally the USA does not have a right to give cultural correctness lessons to the world while we invade them for their oil. The reality is, there is loads of gay action in Muslim countries, like anywhere. The reality is, many muslim women look at our anorexic nude models as the victim of oppression, not themselves. The idea Britney Spears dancing arounding half nude on a stage is "liberation" needs some close analysis in itself.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lvx35]

133. Your intolerance is vile and nauseating.

In part because I know its exactly the thinking that led us into the war with Iraq, the imperial arrogance that Muslims want to be "liberated" from their culture and gifted with the world of credit cards and Paris Hilton. But 500 billion dollars and thousands upon thousands of lives later, we have learned that's not true, haven't we? They don't want our culture, they want theirs. The live the way they do by CHOICE and if we respect their freedom we respect their choice.

[Codeine]

134. They can live any way they please

and I'll not abide invasion, liberation, or imperialism. That said, I see no reason to respect the tenets of *any* religion -- it's all backwards nonsense of the most ridiculous sort.

Arabic culture is a beautiful thing, enjoyed by Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, and others. It has produced magnificent art, music, and great scientific work, all of which has been undermined by the religion that has come to dominate the region. I have loads of respect for Arabs, none for religion.

[Marrah_G]

186. By choice really?

So if that muslim woman in an Islamic country wants to take of the scarf it would be no big deal. She could toss it away and no one would bother her about it? If she truly has a choice the answer would be "Yes, she can choose not to wear it and not suffer punishment".

Here on DU we scream to the universe if there is the slightest hint of sexism, but when it comes to the middle east it all goes out the window.

[LanternWaste]

214. I think that has to do with...

"Here on DU we scream to the universe if there is the slightest hint of sexism, but when it comes to the middle east it all goes out the window."


I think that has to do with the fact that a lot of people on DU realize that the separation between church and state in the mid-east nations is not quite as large as it is in the industrialized West and that for all intents and purposes, many of the middle-eastern states are governed (de-facto) by the church. That many of their laws are directly based on their religious texts.

We can work for progressive change in the middle-east; but if we start by throwing out cultural mores and customs we actually hurt any progress we may make before we even begin. Any initial progress we do make (and if that isn't a Euro-centric statement I just made, I don't know what is...) should be acceptable to those we are trying to dissuade from their current belief systems-- not something that will actually widen and increase the divide.

But that's just my opinion....

[lvx35]

264. Cultures make collective choices.

In many muslim countries, yes a woman can go unveiled. In some they don't. The point is, they choose this collectively. In the USA, we collectively choose that we should keep our genitals covered, and nobody complains that "we aren't free" because of this. We would actually rather, as a culture and nation, not look at each others crotches in public and that's our choice. The majority backs this choice. Similarly, the majority in these countries backs Sharia.
I support freedom for all, but we need to check our arrogance in the idea that the world wants our kind of "freedom" imposed on them. The "freedom" we imposed on Iraq represents a violation of the will of the majority, who want Sharia and sovereignty. Therefore it failed.

[Marrah_G]

283. I ask you this then

In Afganistan were the laws enforced by the Taliban a collective choice? Also doesn't a collective choice insinuate that both genders have some sort of a say in it?

[lvx35]

295. Here's my Democratic philosophy

1) That every adult has the right but not the obligation to participate in Democracy.
2) That there can be exceptions to the above (felons) but the democratic majority should be the majority of people in a country.
3) That a well informed democracy is the best, but an ill informed democracy is still a democracy.
4) That a democracy has the right to choose NOT to use their power on certain things, and can reliquish certain controls temporarily (A Democracy can choose to a Republic for example, letting certain officials take care of certain tasks the people would normally do - like the USA )

So with Afganistan the question is, are the majority of people (including women, see rule 2) happy with the state of affairs? If the answer is no, then Afganistan is not Democracy and I oppose them ideologically. But, we have to be very careful regarding rule 1 and rule 3. Because it could very well be the case, as surpising as this might sound, that if we were to let everybody vote, women and men, they ALL would choose some form of Sharia law that put the women in a tradition role, including the women themselves. We would see this as women disempowering themselves, we would see this as a CLEARLY misinformed democracy, but according to my rules, its a democracy nevertheless.

The point it, we relinquish certain powers in the US to elected officials in the name of efficiency, they reliquish certain powers to clerics in the name of tradition and religion. Their way may seem misinformed, but its their way. And if we convince ourselves they want to be liberated, we might be in for a surprise, in the same way an invading force might be surprised to learn that Americans aren't interested in being liberated from the tyranny of congress so they can vote on every piece of legislation themselves.

[SemperEadem]

290. so what is your solution? Kill all of the males over there so that

women don't have to cover their heads anymore? Because that pretty much is what will turn that tide.

[CJCRANE]

135. But I wonder

how widespread this stoning thing is (there are 57 muslim majority countries). I lived in a muslim country where there were plenty of gay people and even gay marriages! However gay marriages were banned in that country in 2004, but this was after it had become a big issue in American politics (remember CNN is the default TV news channel for politicians the world over).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

187. "This same culture would stone me because I am gay."

Are you talking about Christianity?

[ButterflyBlood]

192. What Christian country currently has capital punishment as the law for homosexuality?

n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

196. I don't know.

But it's right there in the Bible.

[ButterflyBlood]

202. We're talking about cultures though

and that currently isn't the case in Christian culture. The Bible also says not to wear clothing made of more than one fabric, but that certainly isn't followed.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

208. Actually, there's any number of Christians...

right here in America who would love to see capital punishment for homosexuals.

What we're talking about, is islamophobic bigots judging a billion people based on the actions of a few.

[ButterflyBlood]

209. But they aren't the leaders

The Muslims who support the death penalty for homosexuals are the leaders in their respective countries.

I of course don't lump all 1 billion Muslims together and consider them to all believe in many disgusting practices. I know some that don't. But in general, I have a dim opinion of the Islamic religion, just as I have a rather dim opinion of the Catholic Church and Southern Baptist Convention. And I really don't give a fuck about anyone respecting Islamic traditions I despise, just as I don't think anyone should respect Catholic or Baptist traditions I hate too.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

211. We're not talking about the leaders.

We're talking about the culture.

Are you responsible for the actions of your leaders?

[ButterflyBlood]

234. Right, and a few nutjobs do not a culture make

The fact is, your average Christian country is a much better place for homosexuals than your average Muslim country. I don't see how anyone can dispute that. At the moment, Islamic culture is certainly far more homophobic than Christian culture.

[pnwmom]

237. As citizens in a democracy, we ARE responsible for the actions of our leaders.

That's why having Bush as our leader is driving us crazy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

262. So you're saying you're taking responsibilty...

for Iraqi children getting raped at Abu Ghraib?

[pnwmom]

269. Our elected leaders are responsible so in that sense we are all responsible.

For all the horrors.

Since the election was stolen, however, I think this mitigates our collective guilt.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

276. So you're saying...

Saudi Arabia has a better system of democratic government than we have?

[pnwmom]

230. But it's not in our court system. We're not throwing people into prison

for being gay, or sentencing them to lashes, or killing them.

Whatever may have been the practice more than 2000 years ago, when the Old Testament was written, we've moved beyond that now.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

263. We outlaw women exposing their breasts.

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

271. And that's wrong, too. That doesn't make requiring a veil less wrong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

274. So do you have a problem...

when women don't expose their breasts in public?

[pnwmom]

298. No, I have a problem with men making laws that say

it's okay for men to go shirtless but not for women to.

And I REALLY have a problem with people who criticize women for breastfeeding in public.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colobo]

99. Excellent response.

That's my exact feeling as well.

[uppityperson]

100. Fundamentalism. eom

[Bombtrack]

106. moderate religion is even more illogical and a greater impediment to progress, cumulatively

People will "kind of" burn in hell if they disagree.

[pnwmom]

109. Moderate religion doesn't seek to force itself on other people.

So I don't see how it's a bigger problem.

[uppityperson]

111. Where does fundamentalism stop and moderate religion like you say start?

Edited to add: I see them as close, but with moderate religion saying "I was just joking" while not really

[LanternWaste]

215. I think

I think Fundamentalism wants to enact actual laws that mirror those of the religion in question with legal consequences if not adhered to, while the moderates use cultural mores and peer pressure to enact them.

Much like any group of people bound by a common cause/belief/threat have done, do and will do as long as people are people.

But that's just my opinion.

[uppityperson]

302. I can understand that. Overt vs covert sort of.

[pnwmom]

107. You've got it just right. Well put!

[Leopolds Ghost]

156. Lovely. So you guys don't really care about the sexism issue -- it's the fact that

You disapprove of ANY sign of respect for religious people (like half of DU, I guess).

As for "moderate" religion, I find it strange. I fail to see how liberalism relates to having to be "moderate" in ones religious beliefs.

Out of the mere fact that leftists decided to be anti-clerical and anti-traditional cultures for historical reasons that are irrelevant (and managed to make themselves irrelevant in the process, for better or worse.)

[pnwmom]

163. I'm not anti-religion, and I've had a number of tussles with the atheists

on the religion boards because of my personal beliefs.

But I am against the way some people use religion to subordinate other people.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

117. Okay. So, all was 'male-dominated'. Respect our struggle.

Okay? We're slowly but surely showing our respective muscle. Don't fucking bomb our countries and impose your will.

Okay?

[pnwmom]

164. We can certainly agree that we shouldn't be bombing each other.

And America's record for the last several years is shameful.

[Bombtrack]

174. I've never bombed anyone, what are you talking about ?

[CJCRANE]

136. On the flipside

there are countries in which the women themselves choose to wear islamic dress (see the big flap in the UK recently about veils, where the 2nd generation immigrants were choosing stricter interpretations of religion almost as a sign of rebellion against their parents and the local culture).

[Skittles]

138. you would be surprised how much of women's "choice" is borne out of fear

yes indeed

[bumblebee1]

118. This brought up memories of a cruise stop in Egypt.

Our tour group visited a mosque in Cairo. We weren't required to cover our heads when we went inside. We were required to remove our shoes. Of course, there was no service going on at that time.

[CJCRANE]

139. It makes sense

just like in a Sikh temple men would cover their hair.

And not so long ago (mid and early 20th century) in Europe and America it was accepted custom for men to wear hats and women to wear scarves. And of course that wasn't due to religious reasons but may have been passed down in Judeo-Christian culture (which let's face it, Islam is a continuation of - just look at how the robes and headgear the ancient Israelites used to wear - it isn't much different from traditional arab dress).

[cgrindley]

143. Headscarves = misogyny

Pelosi should not be supporting the misogyny of others no matter how much it offends them. She should take a page from Oriana Fallaci's book and take the idiot thing off. This is the 21st century. No religion has the right to tell anyone how to dress. What a waste of brain cells religions are. Why can't people free themselves of all this god and goddess idiocy? Not that this headscarf crap actually appears in the Koran, but when has the actual text of a religion ever been a barrier to its dumbest or most vicious adherents?

[Skidmore]

159. Thongs = mysogyny

and so do silicon breast implants and the veil of paint Western women wear. I'd much rather sit and talk to a Muslim woman in full hejab who has self-respect and is bright (and there are many of them in the world) than some of these self-obsessed painted Barbies that we seem to be hellbent on turning our girls into recently. Mysogyny is not about clothing. Mysogyny is something more deeply engrained in many cultures, including our own. We are not much further down the road than we were in the Sixties when women's issues were front and center in the political discussion. In fact, I would say that we have regressed as a culture, particularly in how we have bought a media and corporate-defined idea of success and beauty--skewed by an almost pathological obsession with power and wealth. We are in no position as a nation to tell anyone else how to live. Let's clean our own house.

I think Pelosi has struck the right tone. You can't change the world in a day and a door needs to be opened before the world blows up. And we're sitting here posting notes on an electronic bulletin board about her clothing. She went to talk to another nation's leader. Perhaps she should have worn a thong, mini skirt, and a camisole show how liberated she is as a woman. Feel free to inject as much sarcasm as you can conceive into my last sentence.

[Leopolds Ghost]

162. Full-body Thongs = just plain Nasty

a la Borat :hi:

[pnwmom]

166. Most of us would rather talk to a bright person with self-respect than

to a self-obsessed Barbie doll.

But I do like to see a person's face when I'm talking to him or her. A lot of meaning is conveyed in a person's expression.

[blondeatlast]

332. But debating/conversing on an anonymous message board doesn't seem to bother you... nt

[Marrah_G]

177. Feel free to go to the middle east and start up conversations with random women then.

[Skidmore]

180. I lived in the ME for 10 years.

And, like here, women have power in somethings and now in others. My point being that, in spite of our vaunted idea that our culture is somehow superior in the way it treats women, we have no reason to look down on others. Our mysogyny wears different clothing.

[Marrah_G]

189. Sorry I disagree

Women in this country have fought long and hard for equal rights. When it comes to womens rights we are leaps and bounds ahead of the middle east and will continue to fight to make sure our own fundies are not allowed to repeal all the progress we have made. Your view that women in the middle east have the same rights and equality as women here is a great insult to all the women on this board who have worked for equal rights.

[Skidmore]

242. Just as there are women here that fought for womens rights, the

ME has a history of women who have done likewise. The West refuses to recognize that there are women in the ME who are not veiled and illiterate. The West refuses also to look at itself and recognize the level of glammed up exploitation of women we attribute to a higher status and to freedom. It is everywhere. It is still a servile. Whether a woman is blatantly exploited by a tribesman in the dirt of a desert camp or by a tricked-out, smooth-talking consumer so touted as the best among men in our own culture, it is still exploitation. I disagree. We live with different chains, and some of them we've forged for ourselves since the 1960s.

[SemperEadem]

294. yeah.. let's see how far the 21st century ERA makes it

and you'll see just how far we haven't gotten... Women don't have equal rights with men in this country. We just got the vote 100 years ago, which we should have had from the outset of this country's formation. In fact, some are trying to overturn women's reproductive rights... RvW has been reduced to a shadow of its original ruling... and plenty of women are at the forefront, spearheading its demise--Phyllis Schlafly for one; women in the Move America Forward organization, as well as most neo-con women.

There was a woman on these boards just yesterday who said she would be happy with giving up her constitutional freedoms for a sense of safety that has never been guaranteed to anyone at any time in human history. As a woman, that's blasphemy to me to hear another woman is willing to give up her rights.

Sure we can drive our own cars and don't have to go out with our heads covered or with a male escort.. but don't be fooled. When any woman can walk into any pharmacy in this country and have her prescription filled for birth control or morning after pills--and it gets filled on the spot with no questions or judgments, then we will be making progress. When a woman can go in for an abortion and not have to watch a movie made to make her change her mind--and then wait 24 hours so she can think about what she viewed--then we can say we're ahead of those women in the ME. When the state, prompted by the church, removes itself from our uteri and stops distrusting women who wish to control their own bodies and manage their own lives, then we will have made some progress.

[eallen]

217. Freedom of speech and religion. We should not pretend nations that outlaws apostasy and blasphemy...

Are exercising cultural differences that matter not to liberalism. Those differences, and the cultural and political ideas behind them, are illiberal in the extreme. Being a liberal, I view that as important, and I do view it as a problem that some cultures are so willing to act against basic human freedoms. I realize not all Islamic nations are the same in this regard. But neither will I pretend to indifference between the western nations and the religious nations that implement such laws.

Oh, what about hanging people for having gay sex? Is that something we can criticize?

:hippie:

[pnwmom]

255. You didn't live there as a woman, did you?

I don't think your experience living there could really give you a good understanding of what it's like for women. And some countries in the M.E. are far more limiting for women than others.

[Skidmore]

278. Last time I checked I am still a woman.

I do have a full understanding of what it is like to be a woman in a Muslim society--furthermore, as a wife in a Muslim nation. There are a lot of nuances to women's power that are not understood in either society. I knew many wonderful and personally powerful women at all levels of the socioeconomic scale. Some were very highly educated and others were not educated at all. My observation is simply that we all too often fail to see our cultural characterstics for the shackles they are as well. We don't have a firm grip on equality here yet.

[hlthe2b]

318. Well, I DID... which is why the blatant uninformed ignorance

by some on this thread is so damned galling. But, I'm going to keep my BP down and just hope that the blatant intolerance and patronizing attitudes towards other women in other cultures (who don't meet OUR definition of what a woman should be) start to break down. Yes, it is patronizing, even when it is we WOMEN making these assumptions through our own western periscope.

I will simply express my apologies to Muslim women (and women of other cultures) for the blanket assumptions we make. I respect your right to make decisions and follow the traditions that YOU choose.

[Skidmore]

320. Well said.

And I would add my point to yours that Western women's ideas of it means to be a woman is a myopic one which refuses to look at the trappings of Western culture realistically. It sometimes leads us to label mysogynistic behavior as signs of liberation and, correspondingly, to overlook the fact that very important nuances exist in cultures which are unlike our own.

[cooolandrew]

165. Very intresting, well noted it's the small things that can bring our nations to more peace.

[bdamomma]

178. the woman has class and understands other cultures.

[trumad]

179. Agreed---

I'm amazed at some of the comments in this thread. When are we going to stop being the big old dumb ugly Americans and quit drowning in our American exceptionalism?

It's time to show the world that we can respect their cultures.

[Matariki]

183. SHE WORE A SCARF WHEN ENTERING A MOSQUE

This is respectful and appropriate. It's a whole different situation than if she had worn it during her meeting with President Bashar Assad.

Do you know that you can't enter the Vatican in a tank top and that it's considered disrespectful to enter a Buddhist temple with short sleeves or shorts on?

It's nice to see an American showing intelligence and respect for other cultures.

[devilgrrl]

195. But but but she's not respecting, she's defending institutionalized misogyny!

:sarcasm::eyes::sarcasm:

[ButterflyBlood]

190. If I were a woman, I sure as hell wouldn't wear one

I refuse to respect mysoginistic cultures. But that's just me.

[Raine]

267. Neither would I

it's not just you, it's me too.

[devilgrrl]

191. This is for those who have "issues" with Pelosi daring to respect other cultures

What if women in the Middle East want to cover their heads? How do you know that they don't? Has anyone ever bothered to ask them?

Get over yourselves!

[Marrah_G]

193. When they have the right not to wear them without impunity then you will know it is a choice.

But for now when it is required and demanded then it is no longer a choice.

[devilgrrl]

194. Okay then, Nancy Pelosi = Phylis Schafly and put the women's movement back 50+ years...

I understand now. Everyone is to live like us in the West, no exceptions. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

[ButterflyBlood]

200. I do wish all countries would respect women the way the West do

Period. I don't consider mysoginistic practices "culture" that should be respected. Just like genital mutilation.

[cgrindley]

207. What if those black people are happier as slaves?

What a ridiculous argument.

Any culture that institutionalizes misogyny is morally bankrupt.

[devilgrrl]

210. What a stupid comment. It is not a ridiculous argument...

So what your saying is that middle eastern women are incapable of deciding what's good for them? And we should do the deciding for them?

You know Hasidic women cover their heads, Mennonite women cover their heads. Are they ridiculous?

BTW, women are treated like shit over here too.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

213. You're dumber than a box of rocks!

The OP is about respecting others customs - Nancy Pelosi respected them - Suck it up.

Now, go outside and make fun of fat chicks. :freak:

[cgrindley]

238. Why would anyone want to respect

institutionalized misogyny? It's perverse and she made a mistake.

[devilgrrl]

248. "It's perverse and she made a mistake."

Yeah whatever.

Why not send Karen Hughes over there? I hear she's really good at the diplomacy game!!!! :sarcasm:

Then there's Condi Rice.... :eyes:

Yeah.... Nancy Pelosi made a mistake by respecting another culture's customs!!!!

[cgrindley]

289. She's allowed to make mistakes

She did well in opening a dialogue with Syria. That's a good thing. The headscarf. Not so good. That's a mistake.

Condi Rice is the anti-christ. She can only make things worse.

[devilgrrl]

291. "The headscarf. Not so good."

:eyes: Fine. We agree to disagree.

[Marrah_G]

221. It's the men in the middle east that say women are incapable of deciding what is good for them

Again, when women in the middle east have the right to dress as they see fit and not how they are told they have to THEN it is a choice. They do not have the power to decide for themselves. Hopefully someday they will and if that day comes and some still choose to cover themselves then more power to them.

BTW, women here are treated FAR better then most in the middle east. Is it perfect? no Do we still have a long way to go? yes But to say that we are just as bad off is just silly.

[devilgrrl]

222. I didn't say that we were just as bad off...

quit making shit up.

[Marrah_G]

224. Your post certainly gave that impression

[devilgrrl]

232. Yeah. Well you were wrong.

eom

[Marrah_G]

236. Your post said "women here are treated like shit too"

The discussion was the treatment of women in the middle east. By you saying women here are treated like shit also, it came across as saying that the two are somehow equal.

[devilgrrl]

249. Seems like women are treated poorly in a lot of places...

including the USA. Our society would rather us to wear push-up bras, stiletto healed shoes and really tight jeans, because if you're not hot, then what good are you? At least American women have the choice to dress like a whore in public.


I'll say it once more, Middle eastern women will decide what's good for them - I highly doubt that they want our help. And why would they? Look how we're helping Iraq & Afghanistan? Dang! We're doing a heck of a job aren't we? :eyes:

Next time, would you prefer to send Karen Hughes or Elaine Chow? Say. Why don't you go?

[pnwmom]

233. It depends on the M.E. country. Women in countries like

Iran, Saudia Arabia, and Afghanistan cannot be said to be covering out of choice, because choice requires freedom.

I live in a city with a large Muslim population and have friends who don't veil here but feel compelled to when they return to the M.E. That's not their choice.

[jean]

204. Yes - there's a big pix of Rice in a scarf, as well as Laura Bush - at this link

http://www.mahablog.com/2007/04/04/pelosi-wears-scarf-righties-bark-at-moon/

[KG]

225. man, somedays DU can't be beat for pure comedy.

:hi:

[lies and propaganda]

228. I would never go there, i would never don a burqa

That being said, Im not a politician...

It was a lovely gesture.

[jsamuel]

229. When in Rome...

[devilgrrl]

254. I went to Rome and did what the Romans do and ...

they were suprisingly very appreciative. Thankfully Italian women don't have to wear scarves on their heads, they only have to cover their arms when entering the Vatican.

[Recursion]

231. Three friends of mine did a "hijab week" last fall

They wore hijab for a week doing their normal routines (this was part of some class or other). They said men stopped looking at their breasts all the time. *shrug*

Now admittedly in the USA wearing hijab (let alone niqab) marks you as "other" in the context of the larger culture, so people will probably be more cautious around you. And these women all had latin/mediterranean features and so "looked Arab" with it on.

That said, of all the ways women are oppressed in a lot of middle eastern cultures, I'm more sympathetic to the idea of hijab, as long as it is only socially expected rather than actually mandated (like, say, in the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, or Egypt -- and there Christians wear it too).

[ruiner4u]

245. Weee! A flamewar over a scarf.....

good flipping god... Whats next weeks flame du'jour? french roast Vs. Columbian coffee?

[pnwmom]

259. The real issue isn't a scarf. It's whether the subordination of women

can ever be justified as a cultural preference.

And the veil, when it is compelled, is a sign and a symbol of that subordination.

[ruiner4u]

297. uhhh.. maybe it has something to do with their religion?

kinda how Nuns wear habits.. which is a kind of head scarf..

[pnwmom]

299. As a Catholic, I will acknowledge that nun's veils are also a sign

of their subordination. There are few nuns left anymore, and even fewer veiled nuns.

I was happy when, after Vatican II, women stopped wearing hats in church and most nuns gave up the habit.

[piedmont]

261. Pelosi CHOSE to do what many Muslim women are FORCED to do.

If she had visited Saudi Arabia, and walked five feet behind her husband, would that have also been "respecting Muslim culture?"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

266. Well, we'll never know, because SHE DIDN'T DO THAT.

And why? Because she went to SYRIA, a country that's EONS more secular than Saudi Arabia.

[piedmont]

275. She still did something that many women are forced or pressured to do. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

277. You totally don't get the entire purpose of her trip, do you?

D-I-P-L-O-M-A-C-Y.

[piedmont]

281. Diplomacy does not require adopting customs that are forced on other women. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

284. For fuxakes, she only wore the thing INTO A MOSQUE! (UPDATE: LINK TO PICS)

Everywhere else she wore "Western!" Nothing on the head! It was like wearing the yarmukle to a sinagogue!

Edit: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x577478

[piedmont]

286. alright then.

I admit I hadn't realized it was only in entering the mosque that she wore the veil.

[mondo joe]

282. We criticize Bush for not understanding other cultures, arrogantly

dismissing them and ignoring diplomacy, and then Nancy Pelsi gets dissed for being respectful of other cultures and being diplomatic.

[VelmaD]

270. I have no doubt...

that some people here would have tried to find a way to justify it.

I have to say I'm pleased to see she did NOT cover herself from head to toe in the pics I've seen of her in Saudi Arabia. Now, if they'd just extend that option to the women who live there...*sigh*

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

273. I wonder what would have happened...

if she went to Israel on Passover and lit a menorah. Would suggest that she might as well steal our money and charge outrageous interest?

Or if she went to Africa and wore one of those colorful head wraps. Would people go on about how if she's going to respect that culture she might as well drink forties and go on drive-bys?

Maybe if she went to Mexico and took a siesta they'd say she's lazy and carries tuberculosis.

[piedmont]

279. Are any of those customs forced on women by religious decree? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

280. Does it make it any less bigoted?

No.

[ButterflyBlood]

309. Of course they're less bigoted

They aren't forced upon women and women alone.

Guess what? If I were visiting Italy, I sure as hell would still eat meat on Fridays.

[GirlinContempt]

310. What an interesting thread.

The scarf itself is interesting, but what I find more intriguing are the replies and sub threads.
The idea of cultural superiority isn't new, nor are any of the ideas within this thread, really. If you want to look back only a little ways, the Victorians had a really 'great' view on the subject. But moral and cultural superiority is nothing new. It's nothing helpful or thoughtful either.

People talk about basic freedoms, but the truth is, human beings have no innate freedom of religion or government or life. They're constructs of ethics that, be they good or bad, we've built over many many ages. We talk about them as if they're inherent, but all that is inherent is your gene structure. Most people believe that their construct is the right one. It's an old shoe you've worn into a comfy groove. I'm not above it, I see things that upset me or anger me because of where I was born, my history, my family.

So many people are so quick to jump on someone else for something they view is wrong. Often, it's empty. A symbol of something they don't understand. One hot issue to represent a myriad of problems. But, I don't think it's that simple. Or, it shouldn't be. The 'morally bankrupt' gauntlet has been thrown down, and perhaps it is. To me, it's morally bankrupt to engage in and support a culture that encourages the accumulation of wealth and useless possessions. This kills people. A lot of people. And, it subjugates them. Women or men, I think that's wrong. Should others get a 'pass' because I think we're wrong? No. But should moral superiority undergo a huge reality check each and every day? Yes.

The U.S. (and Canada to a degree) were born out of strange, tumultuous never to be repeated times. The countries are so unique, so un reproducible (for more reasons than that, too), so bizarre, that a huge potential was unleashed. The potential for great things, and the potential for horrible things. We've seen enough horrible things borne of what so many are expressing in this thread: Blindness and hatred. Believe we are 'superior' all you want, but until we can overcome our own inherent, nasty biases, our potential is wasted. Without the attempt of understanding, without the acceptance of other world views, with only the impassioned ill conceived patriotism in our hearts, we can only do more damage. And frankly, we need others to do us some good too.

[ButterflyBlood]

311. "Well behaved women rarely make history"

Think about that statement and this case for awhile.

[moondust]

312. PNAC is about as

culturally arrogant as it gets. The world despises Bushco for it, as it should.

Nice to see somebody out there who shows empathy and respect. Good for Nancy!

[Bridget Burke]

314. Muslim men are also instructed to dress modestly.

For example, the area from the navel to the knee is generally covered. Traditional Muslim attire for men is quite modest. Here's a good summary--including the ongoing controversies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

Tuareg men wear veils; the women don't. They are Muslim, but these customs may predate their conversion.

Ms Pelosi behaved as a civilized person.