Help! Do you know something about speech therapy? I have a simple question...

[Radio_Lady]

My six-year-old grandson has a problem saying the "er" (as in "driver") combination.

As an ending, it sounds more like the prefix "or" (as in "Oregon").

I'd like to gently help correct him, but don't know how to explain where the tongue, teeth, and cheeks are positioned for the two different sounds.

(Otherwise, my grandboy is perfect.)

Maybe you can help add some lucidity and practicality to this discussion??

It's such a common pronunciation:

"brother" becomes "brothOR"

"spider" becomes "spidOR"

"Mother" becomes "MothOR"

Can you help out or guide me to some Internet places where I can understand what to do?

Thanks in advance,

Radio_Lady in Oregon

(With your permission, crossposted to the DU Lounge)

[Lars39]

1. I googled *tongue placement pronounciation*, and this is just one link:

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:8jcFFHEK03UJ:guts.studentorg.wisc.edu/Pronunciation%2520Workshop%25202006-%2520Beginners.pdf+tongue+placement+for+pronounciation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Hope it helps.:)

[Bjornsdotter]

2. Some kids

....start speaking better after they can read. Until then they don't know that it is spelled differently and they aren't listening closely; it's just not important to them.

My son was very hard to understand as a small child....lots of it was lazy habits. He did out grow it.

Cheers

[Radio_Lady]

8. Thanks for the advice, Bjornsdotter. I'm a radio talk show host who is somewhat impatient and

critical. I just want him to speak perfectly, but he's on his own kindergarten timetable, I guess.

I'll try to be more patient.

In peace,

Radio Lady

[slackmaster]

3. Shock him with 120 volts AC every time he gets it wrong

He'll either learn to do it right fast, or just stop talking.

Problem solved!

[MissB]

9. .

:spray:

Radiolady, has he been evaluated by his school district yet? Ours will evaluate in Kindergarten for speech issues, but some districts can do an early intervention.

[Radio_Lady]

32. This child is in a parochial Orthodox Jewish kindergarten...

I don't want to interfere with what his parents are doing or not doing about this. The owners of the school are not doing anything about evaluating him as far as I know. He had "homework" over spring break which evidenced again that he is behind where I think he should be with reading and writing. Grandpa and I don't think he is being schooled very well, but can't do anything about it.

When he gets to public first grade in the regular school system, I'll plan to get more active.

[MissB]

34. I would think that most teachers would be alert for these things

in the early grades, no matter how many kids are in the classroom.

The good news is that kids are all over the map from K-2, so he isn't technically behind. :hug:

[Radio_Lady]

35. I think this "teacher" is doing less English presentation than Hebrew.

So I'll be waiting for him to "graduate" the Jewish kindergarten and get on with "free" public education. (Neither grandchild is showing a very great desire to be involved with this stricter, more elaborate and restrictive Jewish lifestyle.)

He's a December 2000 baby, so if he can't hack the rigors of public first grade at six years and nine months old, maybe they'll have to get him back in public kindergarten for an extra year. My biological son (uncle to this grandchild) was born on December 10, and had to repeat kindergarten (he had entered early). My son ended up being one of the oldest and tallest boys in his class. I think that was a benefit.

[DesertRat]

42. Hi there

I teach at risk pre-kindergarteners. The "r" is the last sound to develop. In our school district, if the child is still having difficulty with it by age 7, they will be tested.
If a child is in a private school or is homeschooled, they are entitled to free services (such as speech) in the public school, so it might be a good idea for the parents to call the school district now.
He may just develop the sound on his own over the next few months, or may need some remediation with a speech therapist. It won't hurt to get it checked out. I would recommend that you don't try to work on it with him yourself.

p.s. What a cute little guy!

[Radio_Lady]

43. UPDATE: My husband has convinced me to wait until he is fully in first grade to discuss this with

my daughter.

Yeah, he is cute. I think we'll keep him!

[DesertRat]

44. Probably a good idea

If he hasn't developed the sound by then, your daughter can discuss it with the teacher. He's lucky to have such caring grandparents! :-)

[Poiuyt]

12. From the Donald Rumsfeld School of Speech Therapy

:rofl:

[Radio_Lady]

15. He's too cute to be tasered (PHOTO)!

[slackmaster]

18. Yeah, you're right

FWIW my younger brother used to mispronounce words in a similar way, particularly the last syllable of MY name.

He was just doing it to be annoying.

Please be very patient with the boy. I'm sure he can be helped, and frustrating him won't help.

[wicket]

25. What a beautiful child

:hug:

[Radio_Lady]

28. Hi Wicket! He's a sweet little guy... I hope to make it to his high school graduation!

Daily reminders of our mortality are provided by email from school organizers. It's pretty painful and I could ask them to de-list me.

One of the brightest women in my high school class (1956) died of a stroke on her 69th birthday in March.

RIP, Elaine P. It was nice to know you.

Radio_Lady in Oregon

[Cabcere]

40. He is adorable!

:) I don't particularly have any advice, although I did go through speech therapy when I was about his age or a little older - apparently I had trouble pronouncing my R's. :shrug: Anyway, people can understand me reasonably well now, I guess...best of luck with this situation, I'm sure you'll find the best way to help him work things out with his pronunciation. :)

[librechik]

4. tell him to smile when he says that partner

(and smile part"ner") and the er sound will come out. He is closing his mouth in an "o" he needs to widen the mouth and narrow the teeth closer together to get the "er " sound.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. when you say 'or' your mouth makes a round shape....

when you say 'er' the jaw juts out a little, and the mouth flattens.

how does he do when saying 'her'?

maybe just have him play with his voice. tape record you saying a sound, then him saying it, or just let him play with the recorder. kids love that. :)


Maybe he does it because girls go crazy over accents? :P

[Radio_Lady]

11. Tape recorder is a good idea. He says "her" as "(W)HORE"... I'm not sure he gets the meaning...

of that or "HOAR" either.

Girls? He's only six, but a cute six...

[moc]

6. Just curious - is there a reason why you feel active intervention is

needed to correct it? Has his teacher raised any concerns?

My 4.5yo son was in ST from age 2 until just about a month ago. His problem was apraxia (difficulty in the brain telling the muscles how to make the sounds). He had a severe expressive language delay. He is still difficult to understand in some regards, but now he is well within normal limits. However, there are some sounds he has difficulty making. Many articulation issues have a wide range of normal achievement, some up to age 8 or 9. If you grandson's teacher is not raising alarm bells, perhaps you should just see if he outgrows it. I would be concerned that by drawing undue attention to it you might make your grandson self-conscious and perhaps create other problems.

JMHO.

[Radio_Lady]

14. As explained, I'm a hypercritical radio talk show host looking for perfection.

Just spent a full week with him on Hawaii and had difficulty understanding simple words such as "SUGAR" -- "GINGER" -- "FILLER" -- "PRINTER" and I had to guess at a lot of words or have his older sister decipher these for me.

I haven't had any experience with language difficulties in any of my children and stepchildren, so chalk it up to my (too) high expectations.

His current kindergarten teacher is employed by a very Orthodox Jewish parochial school. It's just my opinion, but I think they give more emphasis to Hebrew letters and pronunciations than English ones.

He starts in public school next fall.

Thanks for your interest.

[demobabe]

20. Public schools have programs and there are other state funded programs as well

My 2 year-old currently has speech therapy twice per month as he was speech delayed (but caught up quick!) and as he turns 3, they gave me a package of services that were offered, including Head Start.

BUT what they told me to do - and this should apply for a 6 year-old: contact your local elementary school and ask them about programs that might benefit him RIGHT NOW and tell them you have a concern about speech. You can also ask your pediatrician, too. They can refer you to people who can help with speech.

When I was 6, I pronounced all my "th"s as "s"s, and the elementary school had a speech therapist come in and work with the kids that needed it (and it took me about 2 sessions to correct). However, that was only caught in the course of being in school.

[IChing]

7. Don't worry about it at that age.

It is not abnormal at that age, I have worked with speech therapists over the years.
Sometimes just a simple recording of the speech can make, the person aware of the mispronunciation.
That is not your place to do so.

In first grade you can ask for a simple review by a speech therapist
and she can make some simple recommendations without placing him in a program.
Like I said it is not abnormal at that age.

[Radio_Lady]

16. IChing, thanks for your calm and rational analysis.

I'm going to have some chamomile tea myself and get on with my swimming and yoga today.

[IChing]

19. No problem very cute kid

It is nothing to worry about from the cues you gave.

[Radio_Lady]

24. Good news! He's even cuter now!

[demobabe]

22. You're right, it isn't abnormal at that age

But it is usually an easy thing to fix - it's not like the kid is going to be scarred because he was taught the difference between a couple of sounds.

Kids WANT TO LEARN and be VALIDATED AS HUMANS - they want to learn correctly, and they thirst for knowledge! They're not pets. It is everybody's right and obligation to humanity to help make our society what we want it to be, and teaching children is the first step. It most certainly IS her place to help teach him.

Six is old enough to be reading! Flashcards with pictures and words on them could be used to show him the difference between the sounds and words.

I had a speech impediment fixed when I was six, and I thought "that was so simple, why didn't anybody tell me that before?"

[NashVegas]

10. I Agree With IChing

Let your grandchild come along in his own time, or at the time his teachers decide he needs a professional speech therapist.

[sandnsea]

13. I've heard that before

A goodly percentage of pre-schoolers don't get the "er" ending out right. I guess I'll repeat the best parenting advise I ever got - have you ever heard/seen an adult do (insert worrying concern). Adults all figure out how to say "er" correctly. Not to worry.

[Radio_Lady]

17. Thanks for setting me straight, folks.

[Madspirit]

21. Idiolect

It's called "idiolect"...like dialect except personal. It's when someone has a unique and consistent way of mispronouncing something that is not regional dialect.

He will grow out of it. If that is his only speech problem, I would say he has no problem. Just relax, is my opinion.
Lee

[Radio_Lady]

26. Thanks, Madspirit... You DUers always set me REALLY straight.

[northzax]

23. call it an accent. problem solved

I'm from Oregon, but I talk like I am from Massachusetts, since I butcher my 'r's

[Radio_Lady]

29. Yes, I know the Massachusetts accent. I was born in Pennsylvania and was there while learning to

talk. Then we moved to Florida, and also New York and Boston.

My accent is from where I was when I was three -- Pittsburgh, PA.

Unless you have some kind of other voice training, your original accent comes from where you were when you learned to talk.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. Completely normal speech impediment for that age. Don't worry

about it. He will outgrow it. If he doesn't, then worry, but until he is about 8 or 10, it's totally normal.

And, frankly, pretty darned cute.

[Radio_Lady]

30. Hi Midlodemocrat! He has outgrown another impediment.

When he was learning to talk, I took him to see "Finding Nemo" -- I had to hold him on my lap because the theater was completely full of adults and children!

I didn't know if he would want to stay because the movie is PG, and I felt his little body stiffen at the "scary" parts.

Later, I asked him what he liked in the movie. He smiled, and said "Nemo the fish."

And what was the frightening part"

"The SHOCKS... were scary!" he blurted.

"The WHAT????? -- SHOCKS? Who got what kind of SHOCKS....??? I queried.

This went on for about five minutes in the restroom. Then we saw a poster for the film in the lobby.

He pointed to... the SHARKS!

"These guys are SHOCKS, Grandma, don't you know?"

[Midlodemocrat]

39. LOL. Again, completely normal.

He will be fine. You're doing a great job as a Grandma! :hug:

[gravity]

31. I had speech problems growing up

The speech therapists at my public elementary school helped me out for the most part. I still had some minor problems saying a couple words in high school, but my friends helped me get rid of that, mostly by teasing me.

Lots of kids have speech problems growing up. I would just recomend visiting a speech therapists.

[Radio_Lady]

33. Thanks, Gravity. I'm sure I'm making a big deal over nothing, but then,

I'm highly schooled in the English language and use/used it every day of my life both in my education and my TV and radio career.

I do appreciate your viewpoint and I'm just looking for maybe a little guidance on how to interact with him in a low-key, non-threatening way.

[gravity]

36. One of the problems I had was not knowing I had a problem

I had problems with my 'r's, 'th's, 's's, 'l's, and a lot of other sounds growing up, but it all sounded right in my head. Once someone actually told me what I was doing wrong and how to correctly form the sounds, I improved a lot.

On edit

And don't take it too seriously right now. If you get frustrated in trying to correct him, it's just going to make him feel disappointed and he won't want to do anything about correcting himself. Just encourage him to make in effort toward improving and make it fun for him.

[Kelly Rupert]

37. While not a therapist, I am a

a linguistics grad student, and just finished undergrad with a minor in speech-hearing-lanugage sciences (and very nearly decided to become an interventionist).

Over ninety-five percent of consistant speech errors made at age six resolve of their own accord. Do nothing; he'll eventually fix it by himself. As for what's going on, he's rounding his lips and pulling his tongue back, most likely to facilitate pronounciation of the 'r'. Again, he'll sort it out on his own. This is not the kind of problem that would require intervention.

(Extra information: The English 'r' is an extremely difficult sound to master, and is relatively uncommon. In addition, it's usually one of the last sounds mastered.)

[rasputin1952]

38. First things first...good looking kid there!!!! As for the pronunciation

situation:

1. Do his parents, either one or both, have a regional accent?

2. Is there a crossover between English and Hebrew used in the home?

3. Are there any siblings w/the same or similar pattern?

Remember, he's taking in a massive amount of knowledge at that age, from school, friends, family, neighbors and the like. I would suppose that he'll grow out of this once he begins to read English and gets a better grasp of the language. It can be difficult if Hebrew, (or any other language for that matter),and English are learned simultaneously, to distinguish between certain patterns.

I would not be too concerned at this point, but if you happen across a spider, or discuss another drivers driving pattern, you can slip into a quick discussion. I recall when I was just learning to read, I called out Long Island on a sign, and it came out "Long Izland". I was immediately corrected, not by my own kin, but w/a friend's father who was driving us to the beach. I was humiliated, and that is never a good thing for a kid of that age. That kids dad was a pretty gnarly old goat, but I learned quickly to make sure I could pronounce something correctly before I opened my mouth. I can still recall my dad telling him off, (they lived 3 houses down). My dad was a lawyer, my friend Iggy's father was a cab driver.

FWIW...my dad told me just before he died..."question authority, always question authority."

[Radio_Lady]

45. Rasputin, thanks for your response. My daughter, Linda, was born in NYC, but

we moved to Florida when she was less than a year old, and then to Hendersonville, NC, and to Boston, where her five different stepsiblings in two families helped with her speech in the newly "blended" families.

My daughter sounds almost exactly like me -- people even mistake her voice for mine when they hear us on the telephone. The only word she seems to mispronounce is the word "theater." She puts an extra "R" in the word -- "THEAR-TER" -- I think that might come from Boston, but not sure. I don't recall harping on her speech patterns, but because she was my first-born. Her father moved out, divorced me and remarried when she was only 18 months old... and before long, she sat in her booster seat in the front bench seat of the car (before the requirement to put kids in back) and she became my closest verbal companion.

Son-in-law is from Detroit, Michigan. He has kind of a flat midwestern accent but nothing disturbing or unusual, at least to my ears. However, I've been told rather recently that he did require speech therapy at an early age. I don't know exactly what kind and didn't want to inquire at the time I was told of it.

In day to day life, Hebrew is only used for the blessings in the home and occasionally at their temple. Son-in-law is not fluent and not very religious at all; my daughter went to Hebrew University for one year in the 1980s, but no "modern" Hebrew is spoken that I know of, at least, not in front of me in their home. Much more emphasis may be placed on Hebrew at the Maimonides school, where the young teachers seem to be all Orthodox or conservative Jews with Hebrew as their main language. Many are directly from Israel and this is their brief year or two in the U.S.

My older granddaughter and sister -- now age 9 -- did have a slight lisp when she was younger, at around age 4. I can't even remember what it sounded like... I just forgot it completely. However, this little girl had to do a mad scamper to REALLY catch up with reading and writing when she started first grade in public school. The shoddy education -- my opinion -- they received from the Orthodox Jewish school has cost my kids a lot of money and not served them well. I've been "put in my place" a bunch of times when I objected to this school, but I got told off with "you made YOUR mistakes and we'll just have to make ours" etc., etc. Not wanting to be a neb-nose grandmother, I butted out last September.

Appreciate your response.

[rasputin1952]

47. I get the impression he'll grow out of this, and pretty soon too...

I get the "you made your mistakes" as well...but I tell the kids they can learn from my mistakes and not make the same choices; that is the whole learning process in a nutshell.

Kids learn by imitation, the more you do correct things around them, the more they learn. The biggest problem is making this into something that may not be a problem, that can really affect the child. Gentle support is the best way to deal with this little guy, he'll catch on in no time...:D

[SoCalDem]

41. Can you call his pediatrician? That's where I would start

or maybe he'll outgrow it :). One of my sons insisted on using "fl" where "th" should be.. as in Flumb instead of thumb :)

He did it for a while, and then just stopped doing it :)

[Radio_Lady]

46. I have no contact with the pediatrician. There was one issue of a possibly undescended

testicle, but my daughter said it wasn't a problem and I haven't brought it up since. Apparently, that is another gift from the father's side, as is late potty training (at six, he's still using pull up diapers). Anyway, I'm hoping this little guy doesn't have early myopia or a tendency to diabetes -- also other tendencies in the father's genetics.