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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:05 PM
Original message
Let's be serious here.
It's easy for some of us to come under fire, taking criticism for grumbling (rather loudly) that not only haven't we accomplished a single watershed moment in this new regime, but some of the measures enacted are faux "reform" seemingly designed to keep us complacent. "See, they're trying."

Oh, they're trying all right. Very trying.

I'm critical not because I don't like Obama et al, but because I understand the ultimate stakes here. We didn't fight so hard to put Democrats in power because we wanted to slow down the disintegration of everything we know. Or, at least, I didn't. Half measures aren't going to do it. Giving the power of health over to the insurance industry, complete with mandatory buy-ins, isn't going to protect the American people. Failure to put a cap on usurious interest rates isn't going to help the economy.

Isn't it about time we said "profit's okay, but we are quite aware of the difference between reasonable profit and predation?"

I'm not going to accept that "they know more than we do," or "it's not that simple." Addressing the issues that confront us IS that simple. We need sane and responsible energy policy, we need health care that works, we need consistent and universal dedication to education, we need ecological awareness, and we need justice for the things that were done in our name. Doing anything else at this point is surrendering to a weakening of America, and a abdication of responsibility to the people, not only OUR people, but all of those harmed by the neocons and their policies of the last couple decades in particular.

Half measures aren't going to do it. "Just enough" isn't enough. Half-hearted "reform" that doesn't address the real issues won't get us out of the pit dug for us by the ideologically insane.

"Things are going to get worse before they get better."

No, things are going to get worse before they get worse. UNLESS we goddamn have the guts to do something about it.

Yes, some of the moves have been the right ones. I'll give Obama (if not necessarily Congress) that much credit. But it's really time to tackle the big issues, not patch things up around the edges. We don't have that kind of time. One of the reasons I didn't support Obama from the beginning was that he struck me as too "status quo," though not nearly as much as Hilary. My choice turned out to be a major disappointment, which culminated in me taking a break from the whole political scene for a while. But in the end, walking away is surrendering, and that's one thing I've never been particularly good at. I'm a bit like the Black Knight from The Search for the Holy Grail. "It's only a flesh wound."

Constructive criticism of the administration and our "representatives" is tolerated, if not necessarily welcomed. That's good, because I'm going to continue to bang that drum no matter how hard we try to hide behind the "that's all they can do" chant. It's not, and I'm not going to pretend it is. The only difference between "slowing the fall" and "rushing us into the abyss," (as the Republicans (McCain and Palin) would have done) is how fast we're circling the drain.

If you're really comfortable with dancing along the edge, that's great. I'm not, and I'm not the only one. With the Republicans continuing to throw poo at their own brand, they're as out of favor as they're likely to get. This is not the time to allow them and their ostensibly "democratic" enablers to play surrender monkey.

I haven't given up hope that we can affect a real change. We just can't give up.

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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. This and your other recent posts make a hell of a lot of sense to me
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R, great post!
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. The pendulum usually swings back to the other side.
What's seems to be happening here is that the right wants the "center" to be moved more and more toward their way of thinking believing.

And we seem to be letting them.

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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. And we've been letting them since the dark days of Ronnie Ray-Guns...
we used to be the give em hell party, but for 30 years we've been the give em a sissy-slap and then apologize for it party, and for the life of me I can't understand why we ( "we" meaning our "leaders" ) allowed that to happen.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I can't understand why we (meaning the citizens) don't give them hell every chance we get. n/t
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Too many people ARE ready to give up, though. They thought Obama
was going to fulfill their every need, answer their every prayer. Bill Maher called him "chocolate Jesus" and he wasn't that far off the mark.

The thing is, Obama isn't going to give everyone what they want. He's not going to march into the Senate or the House and say "Stop the WAR!!! Repeal DOMA, and DADT while you're at it!" to the huzzahs of the crowd. He is going to "Third Way" his game, no matter how much the left or the far left gripe. That's just an observation, not an endorsement.

And these people who want this stuff (even though Obama signalled pretty plainly he wasn't going to do all that, at least not straightaway) aren't dancing along the edge, they're leaving in a huff.

How do you solve that kind of dilemma?
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. your characterization of what the left or the far left are saying...
...is out of your own head. it is insulting to say "people" expect obama to "fulfill their every need". none of what i am asking for has to do with MY need, per se. i'm thinking about the interests of the country. any individual citizen has every right to ask and/or expect the president of the u.s. to do what is needed. what is needed, of course, is in the eye of the beholder. i don't care what obama said or didn't say he was going to do during the campaign. i care what is right, to my way of thinking, and what i expect him to do in the interest of the nation. if he doesn't do it he will get my criticism and not my support. i'm tired of all the veiled insults from people like you on this board. you want to solve the dilemma--get obama to do what i want him to do. it's really that simple. otherwise expect a fight. and don't expect my help in 2012.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. That ain't "my own head." You might try perusing this board
and noting how many people are ready to toss Obama over the side because he hasn't done precisely what they want. I see you're one of them.

Who decides "what is needed?" YOU? Me?

Who?

And who decides "what is right?"

Eye of the beholder, indeed. "To my way of thinking" is not controlling, here. I will say, this line of yours is unintentionally hysterical:

"... get obama to do what i want him to do. it's really that simple. otherwise expect a fight..."


If wishes were horses, buddy, then beggars would ride! I'm guessing we won't be seeing you in 2012. See, if you wanted the government run the way YOU want it done, you should have run for President and won. Elections, you see, have consequences.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. "Elections, you see, have consequences..."
So does failure.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. I think Obama is a long way off that mark. nt
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Time will tell... n/t
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. oh, i've perused plenty, mate.
and i've seen what fools will abide. let obama make his decisions and see where it gets him.

oh, yeah, and about me running for president...when i'm a corporate shill like obama, then maybe i'll be in the running. until then the presidency goes to the highest bidder, or hadn't you noticed.

i decide what is right and i decide what is needed. and guess what, so do you. and if we can't agree, then what. oh yeah, then we just kowtow to the democratic party according to you.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Please, do not "kowtow" thinking, erroneously, that I am somehow instructing you to do that.
You do what you want. I don't control you, nor do I have any ability or desire to so do.

I am simply looking for a practical approach to disagreement. I haven't found it here vis a vis this issue. Taking one's ball and going home isn't a terribly good strategy for conflict resolution. When I suggest grassroots efforts, I get a hearty "Fuck you." I've about given up. That should please some, I guess.

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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. you say you want a practical approach to diasagreement....
....yet you insult me. look back to my first post. i felt insulted in the way you portray people who disagree with you. i pointed it out to you and it got increasingly heated.

let me make this perfectly clear:

1) i don't WANT to fight with you.

2) i have strongly held opinions (particularly about obama) that you seem to disagree with. if you would agree with me, or convince me otherwise, that would end the problem.

3) we may not be able to convince one another, yet we both have the right to speak.

4) at some point we are probably both taking each others' opinions very personally, which at some level is natural, because we feel so strongly about them. from my own perspective, i view political struggle as life and death. these things are very important and i want us to get it right. i've been paying close attention to politics since 1967 and i believe it is a matter of historical record that the dems are not the friends of the people, but that the game is so masterfully well calculated by both parties that people get confused who their friends are.

5) i don't know what to do about that except try to put my opinions forward as clearly as i can and hope that some dem party "believers" will cease to believe. i have tried pressuring my "representatives". it doesn't work. it never has, it never will.

6) i will not yield to opinions with which i disagree.

your turn.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. You tell me that I'm making shit up, and then you get "sensitive?"
Who lit the firecracker, buddy? Pull that string...you're the one who used the "your own head" characterization, after I described what I'd read and seen. I don't need someone to explain to me that those sorts of comments are "code" for "You're koo-koo." So spare me your hurt feelings and your "time in the saddle." I've got you beat on that score and wish I didn't.

I don't want you to "yield to opinions with which (you) disagree." I look for reasoned debate, and I have a hard time finding it. The fact remains, though, that you're not, no matter how much you want to be, the little dictator. Heated commentary and demands discourage discussion, and only serve to encourage mouth-breathing, moronic agreement, which is less than useful on a "discussion" board. Particularly one that only get seven hundred thousand views a month. You're better off trying to get on a call-in show on CSPAN if it's "outreach" for your POV you are looking for.

We don't agree. Fine. Have a real nice day. Try taking a "civility" pill.
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tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. no, you're the one being uncivil.
go fuck yourself.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. exactly
:applause:
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Mythsaje, you speak for me.
k&r
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. Must we? It's Saturday!
I do know what you're saying. What little progress we've seen has been timid and proceeding at a glacial pace. The worst social dogma of the last 8 years, like the international gag rule, were overturned quickly. Then it all seemed to come to a screeching halt, with bankers and the wealthy protected while we the people continue to face disaster, one at a time, completely alone with no protection.

The truth is that I don't want to see the old order preserved and there is nothing like creating a large number of people with nothing left to lose to get rid of it. While I want to see everyone housed and fed and paid a living wage for their work, I know these are the very conditions that produced the boredom and discontent that allowed the fascist right to rise in this country and take them away.

However, we're in the end game. Every attempt that is being made to preserve the old order is just arousing rage among many of our countrymen.

It's only when the government becomes afraid of the people that we see real change in our favor.

Every dime they pay to bankers so they can continue to oppress us is a dime that will work in our favor, creating the rage that will bring this about.
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. I couldn't agree more. While Dems in Washington are
pussyfooting around and looking weak, the Repugs are pointing out their weaknesses. Dems in Wash need to "GET MAD AS HELL, AND NOT TAKE THIS ANYMORE".
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abq e streeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. and then of course immediately apologize for getting mad
or for anything else the repubes demand they apologize for
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you Mythsaje! Many of us have lived long enough to see what has happened to our country
Edited on Sat May-16-09 03:15 PM by flyarm
when criminals are not held accountable..they are regurgitated on us..and they come back more nefarious and they know how to cover their own criminal asses better!

We can not afford as a nation to have these same criminals come back on us..they are evil to a core..without prosecutions , trials and holding the criminals accountable..i assure you we will see many of them come back..and by then we will be too weak to fight it off.

Many who criticize do so out of experience and out of knowledge of what has already occurred in our history.

We should all be vigilant as Americans, not partisans.

We have that responsibility to our constitution!

Our republic Democracy is fragile..it is an Idea..and a very fragile idea..it is only as strong as those willing to be Americans first and fight for what is right..when we see wrong we must speak about it loudly and try to effect change..that is what has made us a great nation..without doing so we become just another banana republic.
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. So how to throw the bums out of congress and start treading the life-respecting path?
There is a good opportunity to call for the resignations of all reps that supported and condoned torture.

The rule of law is simple here, and calling for justice and accountability can have no legitimate opposition to calling the admitted criminals and their supporters out.

I would gladly circulate a petition to call for the resignation of my rep, Dan Lungren, who endorses water-boarding while priding himself on a tough law and order background.

What is troubling is on Wash Week last night, the news pundits were trying to push the idea that people were not that interested in torture now that the economy was so scary. Trying to tell the audience that people were moving on after having to accept this as the state of affairs, they have no choice and little interest. Wrong.

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. Mythsaje 2.0
Better than the original!

Your posts since you came back have been spot on, IMO.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. well said.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
25. Big K & R !!!
:yourock:

:hi:
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