Mother of U.S. Marine Who Was Waterboarded Rips Cheney, Others

[kpete]

Mother of U.S. Marine Who Was Waterboarded Rips Cheney, Others
by GregMitch

This week, I received a letter from a woman from Florida, mother of a young Marine, who has corresponded with me before about her military background and her son joining up, at Editor & Publisher. Her latest letter was extremely disturbing and also extremely relevant to the latest torture excuse. Here is it is, with her name omitted for obvious reasons.


Dear Mr. Mitchell,

I have been so profoundly upset for the last few days that I can hardly express it, so I decided to write to you again. My son is ok physically, thank God, but what was done to him by his own leaders sickens me beyond belief.

My son was in a field that required that he attend SERE school. He was trained as a member of a flight crew that could potentially go behind enemy lines, so SERE was required. I'm a veteran, I thought I had an idea of what was ahead for him, so I gave him a maternal pep talk and told him that it would be very hard but these people were on his side and were trying to prepare him for all possibilities and this would help make him prepared and tough.

I didn't know how naïve my encouragement was. I thought they would teach him how to escape, and how to survive. I had no idea that it would be a sadistic exercise in dehumanizing and terrifying him. He was 19 at the time. I am sickened by this, and outraged.

My 19 year old son was water boarded, among other despicable things, and I had encouraged him to succeed at SERE. They did more to him that he has yet to explain to me, one thing that went on long enough for him to start hallucinating and to think he was dying....

Now we all have found that the two men who came up with this program were using my son and everyone else who went through SERE as guinea pigs for their sick, sadistic torture program. Then they sold their torture program to the sadists in the Bush Administration and became overpaid military contractors who spread this poison throughout our military.

My son is not reenlisting. He is getting out soon. He has been depressed for a long time now and can't wait to get out.

This is why I'm writing to you: Yesterday on TV I saw some Republican mouthpiece, some ex-Cheney aide, who has never worn a uniform and has NO idea what the hell he is talking about, say that we never tortured anyone because we did it to our own troops and they volunteered to serve; therefore it isn't torture. His statement was allowed to stand unchallenged.

My son did NOT volunteer to be tortured. He was NOT told what would be done to him at SERE. He was told he would be taught to survive. Instead he was tortured, humiliated, degraded, shamed, and told to keep quiet about it. How in God's name would that prepare any of our troops to survive capture? It won't. It will only make them break quicker in the hopes of not having to go through more torture.

Who will speak up for my son and the others like him who joined the military to serve and who were subjected to sadistic torture, not by the enemy, but by the war criminals ostensibly on our side? These people, Cheney and his talking heads, everyone of them chicken hawks who avoided serving, should NOT be allowed to use torturing our troops as rationalization for their crimes.

There is NO excuse for this. People need to go to jail for this, and I don't mean the Lyndie Englunds and other low-ranking troops who were led into this. I mean the people who ordered it at the top. The people who are still trying to justify their crimes and are now having their mouthpieces use my son and others who were tortured as their cover. And for what? So the sadists who came up with this, and they are sadists, can keep themselves out of trouble? They all stood by silently, including Cheney, while lower-ranking troops went to prison for the evil they ordered done. Now they want to use my son's torture as their rationalization? No!

This must NOT be allowed to stand unchallenged.

I can't stand feeling so helpless. I WANT A VOICE. I want to confront those evil people who are still selling this torture as if it were our only defense against terrorists, and who now are attempting to use our troops to defend their indefensible, morally corrupt, war crimes.

My son was not given a choice, he was not made aware of what would be done to him, he was ordered not to talk about it. He was tortured - by sadists, for bigger sadists.

Who will stand up to those responsible for this?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/16/732174/-Mother-of-U.S.-Marine-Who-Was-Waterboarded-Rips-Cheney,-Others

[spanone]

1. k&r

[elizfeelinggreat]

2. k & r

Thanks for this.

[Wapsie B]

3. Very powerful letter.

This is a perfect example of why we cannot let the transgressions of Cheney and the gang go unpunished. No baby steps here. None.

[DissedByBush]

16. Very loud whine

This is SERE.

The "R" stands for RESISTANCE.

Specifically this would be SERE Level C, which concentrates on resistance to interrogation while captured.

It has been going on before Bush and it is still going on after Bush. SERE has and always will use the latest interrogation techniques on its VOLUNTEER students in order to teach those students how to resist the techniques if they are ever caught.

It looks like this guy didn't pass SERE. Not everybody is that strong. Oh well, get a desk job. He's not cut out for this type of duty and would obviously crack fast in the hands of the enemy.

[judesedit]

27. You make it sound like it's necessary. It is NOT. Explaining is enough.

I guess you've been through SERE and passed with flying colors???? Bush and his Dick wanted this method used on their chosen victims so they would agree that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11, to justify their invasion of an innocent country. Wake up Dissed. This method of TORTURE only works to get people to agree with anything you say. Ask John McCain.

[DissedByBush]

34. I know many people who have passed SERE

They all agree it was very difficult. They all agree it was worth it. Explaining is not good enough. Good training involves doing things. Not just talking about them.

"This method of TORTURE only works to get people to agree with anything you say."

That is a reason it is in SERE. We know the enemy may use it to break our troops.

I heard bugs were brought up as part of the torture we use. Did you know SERE students are required to eat bugs? Did you know that ability saved the life of a pilot in the Balkans?

[rvablue]

36. Uh, huh. Another armchair chickenhawk who likes to lecture and insult

people who actually put on the uniform, like the young man talked about in the OP.

[DissedByBush]

71. I was in uniform

I never was in a position that necessitated I take SERE Level C. But I have been to one of the schools in a, how can I describe it, "observational" capacity. Yes, I do currently know and see daily people who have graduated SERE Level C. I have interviewed SERE instructors.

[dotymed]

118. When my Father was alive

He was a combat pilot. He took SERE. It made him decide to
never be taken alive. It may have helped him when he was shot
down behind enemy lines. He and his co-pilot (both wounded
also) got all of their wounded passengers to safety. He told
me that the instructors were a bunch of sadistic bastards. He
was a D.I. for 12 years before flight school. He went to Viet
Nam a young man and returned, completely grey haired, with
sores all over his emaciated body. He never slept a full night
after that experience. After his first heart attack, he became
a progressive, disabled (100% total and permanent). He joined
the Army a 15 y.o.,8th grade drop-out. He retired as a captain
(he flew for Nixon in '72) retired a Captain and got his
papers for major while he was in the hospital. He earned a
Masers in History and we became progressives together. Damn, I
miss that guy.

[Control-Z]

37. Eating a bug that you choose

to eat for nourishment is quite a bit different than being locked in a dark coffin like box with unknown bugs crawling your body and face.

[crikkett]

62. That dissed by bush dude is full of bravado because he saw the bug challenge on that one

reality show (Fear factor?) I would never watch.

So like, he thinks he can beat the system cause he saw it on tv and that the real soldier is just a failure.

[Raksha]

47. I know a Marine who went through the SERE program,

or the forerunner of it anyway, back in the Sixties. I have a feeling it's even worse now. He says the torture (waterboarding) part of it is useless and wouldn't help anyone resist anything. Quite the opposite, in fact. I really like the way he explained it to an idiot chickenhawk on another forum: "Give me 15 minutes of your time in a little room with "the right stuff" and I could have confessing to sexual congress with your mother, and your male dog (even if you don't have a dog)."

This Marine's mother said her son and the others were "guinea pigs" and I believe her. I bet the REAL object of that part of the program was to see how long it would take to break someone, to get him to say whatever you want him to say.

[Critters2]

51. When did you go throug SERE?

And how did you do, Mr. Tough guy?

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rvablue]

35. How about you, tough guy? Have you been through SERE since you feel so comfortable

lecturing this mother, her son -- who actually went through it - and everyone on DU about it?

Been waterboarded, etc., huh? Have fast did you "crack?"

[RainDog]

41. Rush? Is that you?

how's that anal cyst working out for you? been to the D.R. lately with illegal viagra? what were you doing there anyway, Rush? chicken hawking again?

[mmm413]

48. So.

You apparently have passed the SERE program, knowing that those who were waterboarding you "didn't really mean it?" That you knew you would survive? That you knew when you went into this training that you would be tortured, but they were "just kidding?" And I'm also assuming that you have no kids who were "tortured." If you can reply "yes," to all my assumptions, then you have every right to write such a snarky reply to a worried mother. Mother. . . .

[Usrename]

50. What makes you think he did not pass?

They break everybody, or didn't you know that? That's the whole point.

[defendandprotect]

74. The Mother just told you her son did not "volunteer" . . .

nor did he "volunteer" to be tortured!!!

[DissedByBush]

107. How long ago did the draft end? n/t

[dotymed]

117. "CRACK FAST?"

The torture is (was) used by our enemies to get the detainees
to LIE so they can use their statements for propaganda. It
doesn't matter how "tough" you are, you will
eventually "break under torture" and tell the enemy
(or the people who are supposed to be on your side, in this
case) whatever lie that will make the torture stop. John
McSame "cracked." Get your b.s. straight.

[stray cat]

4. I know people who have gone through SERE - it defeats the purpose to say everything in advance

as the uncertainty has got to be one of the hardest things to deal with. I wonder if your son's experience was unique or pretty typical for SERE. What do people who have been through it say?

[aikoaiko]

31. As I understand it SERE exposure to torture techniques is to help them last longer.

Until the mission is over or can be changed.

As I understand it, everyone breaks and gives up the information.

I have not been through it.

[mmm413]

49. From what I understand

The SERE program is meant to only garner false information. So we torture people, and expect to get TRUTHFUL information? Does consistency mean nothing anymore? The insanity of what this country has been through for the last eight years, and the people who still argue that what has been done in the name of this insanity, is OK is very depressing. This country, founded on the rule of law, has become nothing more than a joke. To thinking Americans and the rest of the world.

[aikoaiko]

66. garner false information? SERE is a training program for US .mil

This program has nothing to do with actual interogations.

[defendandprotect]

79. I agree ... it is depressing to see the alibis marched out again . . .

especially in defense of the disease we call SERE!!!

[JDPriestly]

40. I understand the mother who wrote the letter in the OP to be saying

that SERE is torture. Whether SERE is necessary for troops going into certain types of combat is, in my view, a different question although she may have her opinion about it. She is suggesting that at least some people may suffer long-lasting psychological or even physical damage just from the brief application of SERE techniques that we inflict on our soldiers in SERE training.

The question is not whether SERE should be applied to our troops. It is whether the Republican that the mother saw on TV was correct in asserting that the SERE techniques are not torture (do not inflict long-lasting psychological or physical damage). The mother is correct. The SERE techniques are torture techniques. They are not benign just because we inflict them on our own men. We have no right to torture prisoners. We have not right to use these special SERE techniques on them.

Is this clear now?

[dotymed]

119. I was an Army Brat

in the "old Army." I remember being 4-5 y.o. and
watching my Dad, a D.I., knock the shit out of guys he was
training to survive (die) in Nam, when they messed up. It was
supposed to save their lives in combat. They would put bad
(usually) draftees in clothes lockers and beat on it and
scream at them. That was the way the old Army did it. After
the draft ended and they were ordered to treat these kids as
human beings, it was a different world.

[stanwyck]

45. My son, also a Marine, went to SERE school

At a recent family reunion, he discussed some of his experiences with his cousin, who is a few years older, (a Navy pilot and Annapolis grad.) and his two uncles, both retired Navy pilots Despite the differences in ages, they had all had almost identical experiences. Apparently, the training hasn't changed much over the years. My son, an active duty Marine and an ardent liberal, believes that waterboarding is torture. However, he doesn't believe he was tortured. When the SERE participants are waterboarded, they get a taste of what the procedure is. My nephew says he was told to tap his feet when he wanted them to stop. So, he tapped his feet; he'd had enough.. He was told they hadn't even started yet.
I'm not sure that it's accurate to equate the SERE training with the repeated waterborading of our captives.
That said, I'd like to extend my genuine sympathy to this mother and her son. Her pain is real.

[defendandprotect]

80. Interesting post . . .

My nephew says he was told to tap his feet when he wanted them to stop. So, he tapped his feet; he'd had enough.. He was told they hadn't even started yet.
I'm not sure that it's accurate to equate the SERE training with the repeated waterborading of our captives.

That said, I'd like to extend my genuine sympathy to this mother and her son. Her pain is real.


Your nephew was telling this story in an evironment I read as being very pro-military ...

I'd like to stress that threats and intimidation of torture/waterboarding are also torture --

and should be protected against -- even for our own soldiers -- by the Geneva Accords.

Evidently, some of the prisoners were threatened with being injected with the HIV virus.

And, as I understand it, many of the films/photos were taken to intimidate other prisoners.


Not only is this Mother's pain real -- the threat of -- or real torture of her son --

or any Mother's son -- should be STOPPED.

Perhaps we should begin to have the sanity of our civilian and military leaders tested

before they take office?

[stanwyck]

115. Again, I disagree that equating SERE training

with the treatment of our prisoners is comparable. The SERE participants are there because of their specific military roles. Not all soldiers or Marines attend SERE. Psychologically, and physically, the experiences are different. The SERE participants are there with other soldiers and Marines. They know this is training and that it has a beginning and an end. They know what to expect, not only from other participants who have been through the program, but also from the SERE instructors. The purpose is preparedness in case the unthinkable happens, the soldier or Marine is captured by the enemy. Clearly, this is not the environment for our prisoners, who have no psychological preparation, no buddies at their side, and no instructors making clear this is preparedness training. The prisoners have been subjected to different "extreme interrogations" repeatedly.
Your characterization as the family reunion discussion as being "pro military" possibly suggests a tendency for career military individuals to dismiss any criticism of their training. I assure you, this is not the case. Pro military and being capable of progressive thought, having empathy for other people, and wanting America to lead through moral strength, are not mutually exclusive. The characterization of the military as consistently rightwing, blood-thirsty, and fueled on machismo is unfair to the thousands who share our progressive views. DUers need to look past the uniform and see the person.

[defendandprotect]

130. Torture is torture . . . whether it is of prisoners or of our own soldiers . . .

Especially when a job requirement pushes a soldier into something like SERE which they
weren't expecting to happen and didn't volunteer for.

They don't "know what to expect" as this soldier made clear --
and why should any soldier expect to be tortured by his own teammates/supervisors as
"training" -- ??

Clearly, if a soldier is put thru something like this -- as the Mother makes clear --
they are not desensitized, but made more frightened. You can't desensitize someone to
torture! What an inane thought!

No one can prepare anyone for torture -- that's irrational thinking.

The prisoners have been subjected to different "extreme interrogations" repeatedly.

Exactly, therefore, this is all based on false reality.

Waterboarding someone 183 times suggests nothing but that the program failed 182 times --
and probably 183 times!!!

Your thoughts are a bit convulted here . . .

Your characterization as the family reunion discussion as being "pro military" possibly suggests a tendency for career military individuals to dismiss any criticism of their training.

However, the environment would have been biased toward military careers BECAUSE the family
had many members long involved in military careers!!!

And, NO -- it suggests a too ready willingness to trust and not to question the military.


I assure you, this is not the case. Pro military and being capable of progressive thought, having empathy for other people, and wanting America to lead through moral strength, are not mutually exclusive.

Anyone who thinks progressively wouldn't be involved in this "illegal" war in Iraq to begin with.
Anyone who picks up a gun to kill someone they don't even know, is certainly not a progressive.
Anyone who is serving this imperialistic army/bushco is certainly not a progressive.
What "moral strength" . . . ???

We know something of the training -- too often based on hatred and acceptance of warmongering.
Too often based on turning normal young men into murders -- who kill without thought!

The characterization of the military as consistently rightwing, blood-thirsty, and fueled on machismo is unfair to the thousands who share our progressive views. DUers need to look past the uniform and see the person

One of the last things that the military wants is a "person" . . .
It wants a killing machine and that's what the training does.
Sad, if you believe otherwise!

And, as many in government have told us, Bushco succeeded in raising one of the most brutal,
cruel and murderous armies ever raised!

"Machismo" . . . have you reflected on the rapes of your own female teammates???
From military schools to training, to battlefields -- and among corporate mercenary groups ---
Rapes.
Would you like to tell me honestly there is is no anti-female bias in your training?????


PS: The head of the SERE program told Bushco not to use waterboarding -- !!!

[WildEyedLiberal]

138. So no one can be in the military and also be progressive

I hope it doesn't hurt when you fall off that high horse. :eyes:

Simplistic, simple-minded self-righteousness is equally as pungent when it comes from the "left." Welcome to ignore.

[Alameda]

92. There is more than likely different treatments

for different people. I think this is a system invented by psychopaths....period!!! Did you know Theodore John Kaczynski was subjected to: "While at Harvard, Kaczynski was taught by famed logician Willard Quine, scoring at the top of Quine's class with a 98.9% final grade. He also participated in a multiple-year personality study conducted by Dr. Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews.

Students in Murray's Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)-sponsored study were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student.<9> Instead, they were subjected to the stress test, which was an extremely stressful and prolonged psychological attack by an anonymous attorney. During the test, students were strapped into a chair and connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions, while facing bright lights and a two-way mirror. This was filmed, and students' expressions of impotent rage were played back to them several times later in the study. According to Chase, Kaczynski's records from that period suggest he was emotionally stable when the study began. Kaczynski's lawyers attributed some of his emotional instability and dislike of mind control to his participation in this study."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczynski#Early_life

That really turned out well, didn't it? More:

Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber

In the fall of 1958 Theodore Kaczynski, a brilliant but vulnerable boy of sixteen, entered Harvard College. There he encountered a prevailing intellectual atmosphere of anti-technological despair. There, also, he was deceived into subjecting himself to a series of purposely brutalizing psychological experiments -- experiments that may have confirmed his still-forming belief in the evil of science. Was the Unabomber born at Harvard? A look inside the files

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/06/chase.htm

[eridani]

95. Sounds like ths "safe word" protocol standard for people who do BDSM

For that reason, BDSM cannot be considered real torture.

[SkyDaddy7]

69. I have 3 friends who have been through it...

I am sorry but this letter does not seem right to me. I find it curious that only water boarding is mentioned and from all 3 of my friends that is by far not the worse thing they say happens. Water Boarding is all that has been publicly talked about on TV so I find it curious that is all that is mentioned? However, all 3 of my friends were in Special Forces or Special Forces support air support teams. You do not go to SERE school if you have not already shown you are basically a bad ass. I am not trying to be mean but this does not sound right to me.

I do not support torture at all neither do my friends but they will be the first to tell you they learned some valuable info at thet school. Of course, the idiots who tried to use these methods on people our Military had in captivity should be put on trial...But to act as if this school is not a valuable tool for our military is absurd!

[MagickMuffin]

98. Perhaps you missed this point

"My 19 year old son was water boarded, among other despicable things, and I had encouraged him to succeed at SERE. They did more to him that he has yet to explain to me, one thing that went on long enough for him to start hallucinating and to think he was dying...."

[blackbart99]

104. Good job Majick....bringin' it back to reality...n/t

[clear eye]

102. There's nothing "funny" about the missing info in the letter.

The mother specifically says that her son said he hadn't told her everything that they did to him. He didn't want to upset her or himself further by recounting it. She probably found out about the waterboarding because she knew enough to ask about it when her son told her that his experience in SERE had been terrible. It's not a fishy coincidence; it's just the way things work when someone doesn't want to reveal the full story about something very disturbing. They only give you "yes" or "no" answers so you have to know the right questions. She knew about waterboarding.

You're just looking for excuses to blame the victim. I hope you never get on a jury in a rape trial, given your mindset.

As for your last point, going through something past your breaking point doesn't make you stronger; it only makes you more terrified at the start of the next similar situation. If you actually wanted to increase the time a person holds out, you'd make it just hard enough so they thought they were getting the real thing, but stop long before they broke, giving them a false sense of invulnerability. The mother speaks of now knowing the soldiers in the program were being used as guinea pigs. Perhaps she knows of some leaks to that effect. Because of Guantanamo, there might have been some personnel involved in these sessions not usually part of SERE, whose purpose was to gather data on the effects of torture techniques--like how long each takes to break someone, and which were the most traumatizing. You don't have any way of knowing for sure. She sure doesn't sound like she's nutty, weak-kneed, or a liar.

[defendandprotect]

75. I doubt they can say . . . ????

[OneGrassRoot]

5. Does anyone know more about the SERE program?

Jesse Ventura was on Larry King recently, saying he was waterboarded as part of the SERE program, and that was obviously decades ago. He condemned BushCo, btw, and slammed them for saying waterboarding is NOT torture.

Maybe I'm being super dense this morning, but the following makes me wonder if something different occurred during the Bush Administration as far as torture tactics used at SERE?


"Now we all have found that the two men who came up with this program were using my son and everyone else who went through SERE as guinea pigs for their sick, sadistic torture program. Then they sold their torture program to the sadists in the Bush Administration and became overpaid military contractors who spread this poison throughout our military."

It does make a lot of sense that our own troops are used as guinea pigs -- and not just troops, but prisoners found throughout the American prison system, no doubt.'

Since Cheney and Rummy go wayyyyyy back, I wonder how their path ties in with the SERE program's path? But it doesn't seem to have originated (even the waterboarding) with Bush-Cheney.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival,_Evasion,_Resistance_and_Escape

[Ilsa]

6. 20+ years ago, a friend of mine who went through SERE school

in the Navy said that some of his teeth were loosened by the time it was over with. And he was an officer and pilot, with an enlisted charge accompanying him through the search, evasion, rescue, and torture. He refused to give me any details, though. It should be called SERT school.

[DissedByBush]

17. He refused to give details

Because much of the program is classified.

[Fire1]

42. 'Classified Torture.' This country never ceases to amaze.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. It is common knowledge that people are waterboarded at SERE school.

They were doing it in the early 1990's and had been for years before that.

David

[defendandprotect]

76. I doubt all of the soldiers know in advance it includes actual torture . . .

waterboarding --

I also agree with the Mother that they used her son as a "guinea pig" --

and probably used the soldiers to TRAIN those doing the torture!!!

Let's also continue to remind ourselves that torture is illegal and our

military has found this way around that fact --

pretending it's for the benefit of the soldiers!

Yeah - bring them to near death for their benefit!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. I disagree, they do know in advance.

All of the Special Forces and Pilots that I know, knew details about the school in advance. One of the reasons that they use waterboarding as part of the training is that you don't bring the soldiers near death. It certainly causes the same physiologic response as drowning which without a doubt causes an intense psychological response, the positioning prevents actual drowning though.

David

[defendandprotect]

81. The Mother in her letter is making clear that her son didn't "volunteer" . . .

i.e., he wasn't aware of what would actually be done but also he didn't volunteer to
have anything to do with the SERE program.

Oh, what a shame -- a sham waterboarding????

A "friendly" kind of waterboarding, I presume?

It certainly causes the same physiologic response as drowning which without a doubt causes an intense psychological response, the positioning prevents actual drowning though.

But it only causes the same sensation of drowning and also the same psychological damage . . . !!!

Again -- the Geneva Accords protect not only our prisoners, but our soldiers and the population.

Think back on the experiments that were performed on soldiers and on civilians in this country,

WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE!!!

Begin with the atomic bomb tests --

Meanwhile, I suggest again that we test all future leaders for insanity -- whether for
presidency or miltiary leadership.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. Where did you get the idea that waterboarding could be "friendly"?

[barbtries]

7. this is a great letter

it should go viral, and mainstream. let's see if it does.

[Wednesdays]

8. K&R

:kick:

[mwb970]

9. We surround them.

So let's GET them already!

[Brooklyns_Finest]

10. SERE School

I never went to this school, so I cannot comment on the particulars of this type of training. However, I was 18 years old when I went to Marine Corps bootcamp, and the School of Infrantry. The instructors were quite rough with us. I never took it personally, and I understood that it was just part of training. There were a few kids who really could not take the training. They would take everything our instructors said and did to heart.

From my understanding, waterboarding is a part of SERE training ( I think I saw it in the movie GI Jane), tens of thousands of men have gone through it in the course of their careers. Inevitably, someone is going to take that experience negavitively. However, I do not hear an out cry from a large portion of SERE graduates calling for the end of this practice. The training is serious and tough, but it needs to be. War is hell; being captured by the enemy is even worse. We really need to train our operators on how to mentally cope with being captured by the enemy.

I went to bootcamp in 1997. One of the courses that I was looking to taking while in training was boxing. Prior to going to bootcamp, my cousin, told me of his experiences in the ring with the other recruits. When I got to bootcamp, the drill instructors informed us that boxing was temporarily suspended. Apparently, some kid was either killed or severly hurt in boxing training. The kids mom complained, and the Marines temporarily stopped the training. While it is always unfortunate when an innocent person is hurt, the military needs to focus on the bigger picture. The big picture is creating stronger, smarter, and fiercer warriors.

I always empathize with moms. In her eyes, the military hurt her baby. That doesn't change the fact that her son is a man; a man who is in the business of killing other men. The enemy will always be more brutal than anything we can teach in training. All training is, is a taste of what could possibly happen.

A good movie to watch on what happpens to captured soldeirs is Bravo two zero. It is an account of what happend to British SAS soldiers by the Iraqi army during the first golf war.

[arikara]

20. I wonder if they'll ever make a movie

about all the Iraqi soldiers that were buried alive in the sand by bulldozers in the first gulf invasion.

I'm very very sorry they hurt you, and I'm sad that you accept it as part of the creation of building fierce warriers. Its more like a very cruel form of brainwashing young men and women into fighting their dirty filthy wars. This crap should not be happening to anyone, a country should not be inflicting torture upon its own people any more than upon others.

Please understand that you are in no way to blame. Peace and love to you and I hope you are able to heal fully from your horrible experiences.

[sabrina 1]

94. Excellent post.

I'm speechless so I'm glad you were able to say so perfectly what I was thinking but could not put into words right now.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

112. Thanks for the concern

No need to be sad for me. I played football in high school and college. Coach put us through more shit than my Marine Corps drill instructors could ever dream of. I have also seen more severe injuries in football practice, than I did in military training. I am no longer in the military, but I reminisce about the good-old-days all the time. It always amazes me that young men DON'T want to go through this kind of training (military in general, not SERE). I just chalk it up to a man's life journey, well at least for me (and hopefully my son).

I work a desk job now, but I am a big supporter of the troops. I am part my agencies veterans affairs committee, and a contact for SSA's wounded warrior program ( I work for SSA). The wounded warrior program is a means of expediting service member disability claims. I am sympathetic to those who have faced physical and mental injuries. However, I understand what business the military is in. I understood it when I enlisted at 18, I understood it when I deployed to Iraq in 2003, and as a former Marine, I understand it now. The military is in the business of defending not just our country, but citizens of many countries throughout the world. In order to defend, we have to train hard. I know it is corny, but the old saying that "it is better to sweat in training than bleed in war" will always hold true.

[rucognizant]

21. An even bigger picture.............

Might be..........putting ALL THAT MONEY, CREATIVITY etc. into education, diplomacy and ending hunger around the world.......
instead of creating stronger, smarter, and fiercer warriors. Have we EVER TRIED IT?
Hitler needed to be stopped. We did it.That was almost 70 years ago. THERE HAS BEEN NO NEED TO GO TO WAR SINCE THEN! NONE!
Listen! My art career was virtually ended about 20 years ago, by the sweep of profit mongering and war mongering.....If I could live through 20 years of being minimized and on hold, then these solder guys can live without their careers too!
Early childhood training could build a different model!!!!!

[judesedit]

29. Great post

[judesedit]

32. Bushco hired subcontractors to do the dirty work

They were NOT professional interrogators or any such thing. Just a bunch of sadists that sold the idea to another bunch of sadists. They should all burn in hell and suffer the exact same torture they performed on, or condoned, for others.

[xocet]

23. Remind me...

I thought the first "golf war" between Nicklaus and Palmer?

[SoxFan]

70. The Siege of Pebble beach, remember?

[tnlefty]

61. If you're representative of Brooklyn's finest...

I'm happy to be where I am, although surrounded by shitheads.

[defendandprotect]

78. The "bigger picture" is . .. TORTURE is illegal . . .

even of our own soldiers -- !!!

Our Constitution stands against "cruel and unusual punishment" ---

And, certainly the Geneva Accords and Miltiary Law don't serve to protect just our prisoners . . .
They exist to also protect our own soldiers from sadists in the military.

Somewhere military training got taken over by sadists -- and we need to put a stop
to it!

Apparently, some kid was either killed or severly hurt in boxing training. The kids mom complained, and the Marines temporarily stopped the training. While it is always unfortunate when an innocent person is hurt, the military needs to focus on the bigger picture. The big picture is creating stronger, smarter, and fiercer warriors.

That's like saying that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld were "stronger, smarter, and fiercer warriors."
Maybe Limbaugh, too?

No . . . these men are sick inside and spewing their insanities all over all of us.


I always empathize with moms. In her eyes, the military hurt her baby. That doesn't change the fact that her son is a man; a man who is in the business of killing other men. The enemy will always be more brutal than anything we can teach in training. All training is, is a taste of what could possibly happen.

A 19 year old is certainly not a baby -- nor a man.
And certainly "not in the business of killing other men, except that is the military's goal.
As many in Congress have made clear to us, we have produced the "most brutal, most violent"
army that has ever existed!

Shall we also rip their fingernails out getting them ready to face that possibility at the
hands of others?

What we really need here is a test of sanity for our leaders --

A good movie to watch on what happpens to captured soldeirs is Bravo two zero. It is an account of what happend to British SAS soldiers by the Iraqi army during the first golf war.

Wars aren't "golf" -- however . . . neither are movies war.

Meanwhile, try to run thru your mind our BURYING 2,000 IRAQIS IN THE SAND . . .
PERMANENTLY!!!

Try to run your mind over our dropping two atomic bombs on Japanese CIVILIANS at the end
of the war!!!

[A-Long-Little-Doggie]

11. k&r n/t

[QueenOfCalifornia]

12. kpete....

I recommended your op.

I want to tell you how much I appreciate you on this site. You post a massive amount of useful information along with links to back up what you write. I applaud you.

This OP is an example.

Thank you for this and I hope that everyone at DU gets a chance to read this excellent original post.

:applause:

[livefreest]

13. slowly i hope reality will start winning against the dark force

[alfredo]

14. I helped build a "Vietnamese Village" at Ft Devens Mass.

It's on this page Down about quarter of the way. It's entitled "ASA Southeast Asia Tactical Training Course"

One of the tortures was putting the shackled victim into a hole in the ground. On top the hole was a metal plate. The "Cong" would beat the metal plate. Another way of soften them up was to take them an throw them into the bed of a truck and drive them over the rutted dirt road. The prisoner is nude, cold, wet, and exhausted. He had no way to protect himself from being bounced and tossed around in the bed of the truck.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65809



Col Millet was my commander. He was a tough motherfucker, but he treated us ASA guys well. He hated to be in a non combat position, but he was a good soldier. One time the Navy Seals ganged up on one of our guys and beat him to a pulp. Millet called the commander of the Seal unit and told him if there is another such incident he would command his three thousand strong ASA unit to take revenge. There was no more incidents.

Millet won his Congressional Medal of Honor by leading a bayonet charge up a hill against a force several times larger than his. Though he was wounded several times,he kept advancing until the enemy was defeated. The defeat was so horrifying, so complete that the next hill he targeted gave up, and ran for their lives. His bayonet charge was the last successful bayonet charge in modern warfare.
In his long military career he never won the good conduct medal.

When we were working out there in the village, he would bring us food and drink. He knew how important beer was to a soldier. He'd sit with us and talk. He would sing for us when he was well lubricated.



A romanticized painting of his attack.

[defendandprotect]

83. Did you run across Edward G. Landsdale anywhere in VN? Phoenix Program????

Again -- I think there are some insane interpretations of "tough" --
in my book it doesn't mean getting your troops killed --

and, again, I'd suggest we begin testing our future military leaders --

presidents and vice presidents for sanity!!!

We can call it P-WOS -- Project - Weed out the Sadists . . .

[alfredo]

109. I signed up for Nam but got sent to Africa. He was CIA, a completely

different organization. We were the desk-borne rangers. Our thing was electronic communications. That's why we were East Africa. Asmara Eritrea is an exceptional location for communications intercept. We used to say we had an 8,600ft antenna. My specialty used doppler antenna.

You can see the doppler array behind the building.

For three years they played in a loop, "The Sound of Music" as cover noise. At the end of the soundtrack was Rolling Stones "Jumping Jack Flash." After the months passed, the tape began to stretch. Julie Andrews became a baritone. the kids, became LSD auditory hallucinations. It was the precursor of the drug years for many of us. We didn't need to drop a pill, we could just stand outside and listen. I felt sorry for the guys in the guard shack. They had to listen to it all day.

[pleah]

15. K&R

[McCamy Taylor]

18. Holy shit! The tortured our own troops? This is just plain sick.

[bottomtheweaver]

19. It's sadism under the cloak of national security.

So is all the other shit the CIA does like for instance 911. This program dates from the Cold War, which was basically a propaganda function to begin with and has to go. WTF does some 19 year old or 29 year old that the "enemy" can't get from a telephone connection and Google?

This is just an excuse for nasty thrills, and I feel very sorry for anyone who went through it.

[Chemisse]

22. That's what I was wondering

What are the chances a soldier is going to be captured and tortured to get at some important fact?
And if it does happen, how does knowing what he is in for help him conceal that important information?
Is being prepared for it effective half the time? 10 percent of the time?

I think this is a whole lot of torment on our own troops for very scarce results.

[bottomtheweaver]

43. The original purpose was basically to prevent embarrassment.

Apparently a handful of captured GIs in Korea had signed confessions and made embarrassing statements on tape after some mild torture and naturally we can't have that. It had nothing to do with "intelligence." And of course the Nazis in the CIA took the ball and ran with it and spent the next four decades developing ever more horrifying forms of torture. This is from Jane Mayer's book "The Dark Side." There's a link in my journal.

As far as I can tell the only function the SERE program serves now, besides hazing, is to turn enlistees into torturers, and the only reason for that is sadism. Who's going to say no? The CIA is completely lawless and does whatever the f it wants. That's why I'm hoping Pelosi is serious about calling for a review of the 1947 National Security Act, which foolishly licensed these depraved thugs.

[defendandprotect]

85. Good post . . . and . . .

I hadn't heard about this from Pelosi . . . thanks!

That's why I'm hoping Pelosi is serious about calling for a review of the 1947 National Security Act, which foolishly licensed these depraved thugs

[bottomtheweaver]

106. Thanks, I'm really hoping she follows through too.

It's something she tossed out in her press conference on Thursday, and I hope she's mad enough to actually nail the assclowns and not back off, because she doesn't seem to have the support of the WH or much of anyone else on it. No one ever does. Maybe Graham will back her. Anyway here's the thread from Friday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5665599&mesg_id=5665599

[Ex Lurker]

96. there was a lot more to it than just "embarassment."

A distressing number of American POW's folded under the mistreatment, basically lost the will to live, and died in captivity. SERE was meant to address that. Whether you accept it or not, survival and resistance training is necessary.

[happyslug]

101. No, the purpose of the SERE is to teach the recruit they WILL TALK

To many WWII movies had the Good Guys NOT talking no matter what the other side did. The problem is during WWII, Korea and Vietnam, when our troops were captured, they would talk. After they talked they remembered the movies and saw themselves as "Weaklings" for talking. This cause some problems, including a huge number of "defectors" during Korea (All returned to the US within a few years, but the North Koreans made a huge propaganda issue of the "defections".

As an ex-POW told me many years ago, when captured you will talk. The key is NOT to release more information then the enemy already knows. Furthermore to accept the fact that the enemy will use the captives for their own propaganda purposes and NOT to take such use, and demands for "Confessions" as being Anti-American.

Thus the SERE program and its water-boarding is more to get the troops use to the fact that it might be used against them. The Water-boarding is much like when the Army forced me to take off my "Protective Mask" after entering a chamber full of tear gas. This was first to show use that tear gas is effective, but also to show that the mask did its job. The same with the SERE program, it is NOT to show that these torture techniques are effective, but to expose the troops to the possibility that it will be used AND because it will be used you will be forced to say and write things that you personally reject. It is more to show that such techniques are good at getting people to say things NOT to get any good information.

[bottomtheweaver]

114. It sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

It's hard to believe that this kind of violence would be directed to recruits on the slim chance they'd be tortured by Koreans and lose their self esteem or any other noble reason proffered here. Military hazing goes back to ancient history, and the CIA, which apparently developed the SERE program, is a sadistic crime operation established to turn death, pain and destruction into profit. It's possible that hazing serves some useful function in military indoctrination, but let's at least call it what it is.

[happyslug]

126. First, SERE is NOT done on recruits, it is done on personnel most likely to be captured

Pilots and Special forces for example. Pilots get shot down and captured, then interrogated about their operation of their plane, their mission, their commanders, other pilots. All of this is helpful in figuring out what we will do next. Thus extensive interrogation is made of some of these people, people who the opposing side view as having such information. Yes, we have been luckily since Vietnam, the planes we have lost behind enemy lines have been few, but that was NOT true of WWII, Korea or Vietnam, and will NOT be the case if we ever engage in a war where complete air superiority is NOT held by the US. i.e. Pilots will be captured and interrogated in the future (Unless we replace man planes with remote controlled planes, then the human element is eliminated, but that is a different discussion that relates to what out next generation of fighter planes should be NOT SERE training discussion).

Special Forces are shown in the movies as highly selected and trained personnel, and they are, the reason for the selection system and training is special forces are going on behind the line missions where the chances of getting caught is high. The other side is NOT just going to leave such special forces around to gather data on them, the enemy will have search teams, planes, helicopters trying to locate such teams and eliminate then or capture them. Furthermore, the enemy will NOT be the incompetent troops shown in movies, but forces trained in searching and finding Special Forces operated behind their own lines. Our special forces have a good history of NOT being captured, but if anyone will be it will be such special forces. Thus SERE training was extended to Special Forces during Vietnam.

My point is, SERE is useless for most soldiers, the chances of a infantryman or other trooper being water-boarded are slim given the chances of infantrymen and other troopers being captured are slim (And if captured, unless the enemy have some reason to interrogate a soldiers, any chance of being interrogated, let alone water-boarding, are slim). Thus useless for most people in the Military and except for Pilots and Special Forces personnel, NOT done (or should NOT be done, but I have NOT heard any stories of SERE training being done on anyone NOT in Special Forces, or a Pilot or some other high odd of being captured position).

[defendandprotect]

123. In fact, they relieved soldiers of that onus . . . didn't they?

[happyslug]

127. Yes, the number of troopers who stay in Korea after the Korean war was embarrassing to the US

After the defectors settled down in Korea or Russia, the US was able to get in touch with them via their relatives, and told them all was forgiven and the Government Understood WHY they did what they did. It took a few years but, in the stories I have heard, all came back (The only defector who stayed any length of time defected during Vietnam as a guard on the Korean DMZ, he returned just a few years ago, but his defection had NOTHING to do with the defections of the American troopers held by the Red Chinese and North Koreans).

More on the American POW defectors here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_defectors_in_the_Korean_War

Yes, only 20 (plus one Briton) but it embarrassed the US Army, disillusionment with Communism was the chief reason they returned but some still advocated Communism even after their return from China and a few stayed under Communist Rule till their died.

[defendandprotect]

84. That's the kind of clarity we should be hearing on this . . .thank you!

[flyarm]

24. Who will stand up for truth? Who will stand up for rule of law?

what has happened to so many dems i used to think i knew?? Who today do nothing but make excuse after excuse..was winning so important to them to forget their principles ? and values? or did they really never have them????????

This letter makes my heart ache ...

Thanks for posting!

[The Blue Flower]

25. SERE is BECAUSE it's torture

I've been waiting for someone to challenge the statement that I keep hearing that "it isn't torture because we do it to our own troops." The point of doing it to our troops is BECAUSE it's torture, and the military is training them to resist in the event they're on the receiving end.

[hankthecrank]

26. k & r n/t

[mecherosegarden]

28. Oh my!

I am recommending this . Oh my!

Poor , poor child!

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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[Uncle Joe]

38. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[katsy]

39. Who will stand up to these murderers? No one.

And I will be happy to eat my words if these criminals are brought to justice.

The political crime bosses, the elite and their enablers are above the law.

[Raksha]

44. K & R - incredibly powerful letter!

[rateyes]

46. It doesn't sound like we count on our Congress, our Justice Dept.

or our courts will stand up to this.

Well, I plan on taking this letter to my DINO Congressperson and trying to SHAME him into doing SOMETHING.

[deacon]

52. k + r n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. I have never known a person who went to SERE school who didn't know what was in store for them.

[KittyWampus]

56. IMO, the opening post is either from an uniformed mother or bogus

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. I suspect an uninformed mother.

[KittyWampus]

58. OR maybe the SERE program has mutated into something less useful?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. It was that way in the early 1990's they waterboarded then.

I doubt much has changed with it.

[stanwyck]

113. My son's experiences at SERE were almost identical

to his two Viet Nam era pilot uncles' experiences decades earlier at SERE.

[defendandprotect]

86. The Mother served in the military . . .!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

90. and your point is?

[defendandprotect]

120. Did I make it up . . . or did you refer to the Mother as "uninformed" . . .????

This is not only a wise and thoughtful mother -- but a woman who herself

served in the military -- and a Mother from a family with a long military

tradition!!!

What's your point?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

128. So simply being a veteran makes one fully informed?

It is quite possible to be a veteran and have no knowledge of SERE training. The SERE school that pilots and special operations troops attend is pretty much reserved for those specialities.

David

[defendandprotect]

129. Are your suggesting you are "fully informed" . . . ????

Unfortunately, this woman and her family -- and many like her -- have confidence,

faith and trust in the military.

But as Brig. Gen. Smedley Darlington Butler -- and General Eisenhower/Pres. Ike --

have insturcted us . . . it is to be mistrusted.

Meanwhile, if you don't know this . . .

The guy who heads the SERE program told Bushco not to waterboard prisoners . . .

Maybe you also think that Cheney and Bush and so many other Repugs avoided military

service because they were "uninformed" . . . ???

Here's the elite view of the military --

In Haig's presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as "dumb, stupid animals to be used" as pawns for foreign policy.

And from the treatment of our soldiers on their return, I would say they think even less

of vets!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

131. You suggested that I was fully informed since you implied that veterans are.

The commander of the SERE program probably knew that waterboarding would produce unreliable intelligence since he has seen the effects it has on our troops when they are subjected to it. Unfortunately neither party has done much to show that they think anything of our soldiers or our veterans.

David

[defendandprotect]

132. Waterboarding is ancient -- goes back to Spanish Inquisition . . .

Crusades . . .

I implied that this Mother knows what she is talking about in regard to her son

and her conversations with him, her knowledge of him ---

IMO, her past military experience -- and the family's -- led to poor judgment on

today's military/corporate military -- based on misplaced trust.

And, being tortured by your own military members is simple betrayal and victimization

of our troops as "guinea pigs."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

133. Hard to call someone a guinea pig when they are experiencing something from the Inquisition.

[defendandprotect]

134. Long time, no Crusades? There had to be re-training . . .!!!

And, therefore, "guinea pigs" . . .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

135. The military has been doing it since I was there in the early 90's.

[defendandprotect]

136. Guess you never have enough "guinea pigs" . . . ??

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

137. Never enough small minded pricks on DU either.

You are helping the cause though.

David

[defendandprotect]

139. See . . . that kind of destroys your ...

sincerity rating -- kinda pushes it into disingenuous.

Bye . . .

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

140. I'll consider the source, cya.

[Ex Lurker]

97. So she says

I've not seen a DD-214, nor even a name to verify that this is a veteran, or even a real person.

[defendandprotect]

121. How do you know she's even a woman or a mother -- ???

And who would care to know anything more about you -- ????

[demigoddess]

54. Good for Her!! These things are just encouraging nazi-like people to enjoy torturing

when we lived in Colo springs near the AF Academy we heard that some females put through this training were raped. I am hoping all those involved rot in HELL!

[defendandprotect]

122. And if I believed in Hell, I'd be 100% with you -- !!!

[kleec]

60. K&R

Thank you so much for posting this. As a Grandmom of a Marine who did not reenlist after a tour in Iraq, and a sister of an Air Force 22yr. veteran, now deceased, I can only say it's time the truth of the sadistic procedures encouraged by the past administration had a harsh light shone on them. Our country, and it's reputation world wide has degenerated so badly under the previous administration it will take much to bring it back to any resemblance of what it once was and is meant to be.

[Chemisse]

64. What does K & R mean?

I keep seeing it and the meaning is just not popping out at me.

[Octafish]

65. Kick and Recommend

Shorthand for a thread worth keeping at the top of the heap.

PS: A hearty welcome to DU, Chemisse!

[glitch]

63. As soon as this woman's son has been released from service Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbernan

need to have her on their shows, if she's willing.

[MasonJar]

67. Thank you for speaking out from one mother to another. We should all remember that

those were tortured, some multiple times, also have mothers who care and can do nothing.

[SkyDaddy7]

68. This letter does not sound right...

I have a few friends that have been through SERE School and they all knew pretty much what was going to happen to them before they got there...What really does not make no sense at all is the fact her son is complaining about water boarding and that is not the worst thing they have to go through. Yet that is all this letter mentions. I am sorry but this letter does not sound right. This school has been around for decades and I'm sorry if this bothers people SERE School is a necessary part of military training for those who might be caught by the enemy.

I would like to know this Marines Job Title and exactly what he was training for...Not just anyone goes to this training. Especially Marines who need pep talks from their Mom? Sorry but you are talking about US Marines these guys and gals are not soft at all!!

I do not want to call people out but this does not smell right.

Of course, we should not torture or use such tactics on anyone we have in custody but that is not my point. Our military guys & gals go into this training knowing full well they are not in the hands of the enemy. It is also done to help train them how to deal with such treatment should it happen to them.

[spag68]

82. Use of english

Your second sentence contains a double negative, and is grammatically incorrect. Further your repeating of your prior post, leads me to believe that you are FULL OF SHIT.

[defendandprotect]

87. Thanks . . .

getting tired of calling out the apologists . . .!!!

[SkyDaddy7]

88. Thanks for the english lesson...

Why did you waste your time? Did I rain on your make believe parade? Grow up!!!

[SkyDaddy7]

89. Speaking of English...

You might want to take a look at your own profile...Try spell check while you are there as well!

LOL!!

Some people are truly special!!

[madeline_con]

110. Grammar lessons. Wow.

This indicates there is really nothing in the post you're replying to that you can contradict.

P.S. Did I spell everything correctly and use the right conventions?

[MagickMuffin]

99. Perhaps you missed this point

My 19 year old son was water boarded, among other despicable things, and I had encouraged him to succeed at SERE. They did more to him that he has yet to explain to me, one thing that went on long enough for him to start hallucinating and to think he was dying....

[Swede]

72. K&R

I wish I could recommend this over and over.

[defendandprotect]

73. Wow . . . as the fog lifts --- things begin to make some sense of Bushco's insane world -- !!!

How brave this mother is -- and how brave her son to have told her this --

and not hiding it.

We need to come face to face with this crap and stamp it out --

and we don't need leadership that wants to hide it!!!

[Brandon8]

93. From Korea to SERE to Gitmo

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the history of the SERE program

It started with Chinese interrogations in the Korean war - the techniques were used to extract <b>false</b> confessions for propaganda purposes. The SERE program used those techniques to prepare soldiers to resist, that's how they were introduced to the military and then in the war on terror we are using those same techniques.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1893015,00.html

[MagickMuffin]

100. I sent emails to Greg Mitchell & Rachel Maddow

urging them to give this woman the voice she desperately deserves.

Hopefully they will do just that, I'm also tired of the "republicon mouthpieces" prattling on and on about this is done to our troops therefore it isn't torture.:grr:

[wial]

103. as long as SERE exists

this is not a good country. SERE represents an utterly misguided, childish way of thinking about what constitutes adulthood and responsibility in this world.

Maybe we could start a special form of welfare for people like that so they can play violent computer games all day and be prevented from hurting anybody else. This is a grown-up world where they don't belong, where we need to stop global warming, educate people for a very difficult future requiring great sensitivity, spiritual insight and scientific knowledge, with people know how to talk, not how not to talk, and to stop trashing the environment with Hummers and cruise missiles.

Training for those tasks will be much harder than childish things like SERE. Time to put it aside already. People like Bush and Rumsfeld and those who defend SERE here are sociopathic moral infants and need to be treated accordingly.

[Locrian]

105. well said

"as long as SERE exists this is not a good country. SERE represents an utterly misguided, childish way of thinking about what constitutes adulthood and responsibility in this world"

Well said!

And don't give me that bullshit about "but you dont understand the REAL world". We HAVE to do it because of the bad, evil guys out there, bla, bla bla bullshit.

We as a civilization need to stop the pathetic worship of military might. We need to recognize that this creates nothing but morally retarded individuals.

[surfinshell]

108. sounds to me

like they are using these 'techniques' on our own soldiers to justify torture. what sence is breaking a person and then leaving them broken. doesn't sound like it helps our side.

then again I'm just another disgruntled lefty

[The Backlash Cometh]

111. So true. Pain breaks you.

But revenge will strength you...just long enough to do what you have to do.

[peacetalksforall]

116. IUt's obvious that DU has been infiltrated by what people used to call apologists.

These people don't deserve to be called apologists. They are defending and disparaging for political and corporate gain which is control over the masses and greed. Why did we want to torture these people - the first reason it to find out what they could to secure the pipelines and wells, plus the loading and shipping, Think about it - you can eliminate protecting us ffrom terrorism.

Second subject: The key word in this thread is 'volunteer'. The implication is that these kids volunteered for these 'tests'. Knowng the utter cunning and lying of our military and intelligence, I would guess that they really mean that these kids volunteered to enter the military. I wouldn't be surprised if the twist and turn the truth. Turning the truth is what they are all about.

[riverdeep]

124. Man, I hope this DOESN'T go viral.

It's gonna make us look quite stupid.

There's several things going on in that letter, if taken on face value.

1) The accusation that the information that resulted from putting our troops through training was sold by Dick Cheney to contractors in Iraq so they could torture. I know we all hate Cheney, but this has been around for years, long before Cheney came on the scene. Now, I'm sure they do collect data, for all kinds of reasons, but the CIA and the School of the Americas was teaching torture in the 70's to Central Americans. The CIA knows torture already, this program would hardly be the main conduit for it.

2) A mother's grief and a broken son: There are some possibilities.

a) This is a very rough program, and it's possible they misjudged their pre-selection process and allowed in someone who was very unsuited and in no way prepared for this, or at a vulnerable time in his life. Unlike others, I don't believe he was 'weak', but rather, not suited. There are many tough guys who can't handle a 9-5 and go off the deep end. There are plenty of straight arrow types who could never handle the stress and inner disorientation that comes from creating a great work of art. And of course, a mother will feel for her son, and understandably lash out at those who she believed did this. But that doesn't speak to the general accuracy of the letter.

b) It's possible these particular instructors DID go too far and left some permanent damage. Not everyone is good at their job or good at their job all the time, and this could have been the tragic result. Torture, when done for real, DOES leave permanent damage in the brain that is hard to impossible to undo. This may have been TOO real. But the armed forces would have discontinued it if that happened all the time.

3) That this program in unnecessary. Look, ANYONE can be broken, it will happen. No one, no matter how tough they think they are, can put up with stuff forever. Just ask Pol Pot. But it can help soldiers deal with lower level and milder resistance, and that can help create some confidence going into combat if the training is done in a controlled fashion. Now, the stuff that Pol Pot did, well you're not going to be able to train for that, unless you build a synthetic body.

BTW, to those of you thinking it's preposterous that we would ever conduct horrifying and unnecessary tests on our own troops are woefully naive. We have done it and done it plenty of times.

("Veterans Sue CIA Over Past Chemical Tests on Soldiers")
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aQLKz5TZ0PpY&refer=us

I just don't think that's what's going on here.

This post is a copy from this other thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5670425

[riverdeep]

142. Well, since this thread is back up, I need to amend something.

I said in the first post (under 1), that I didn't think they were using SERE training of Americans to figure out how to improve their torture techniques because the CIA already had torture techniques. I was wrong. I still believe the main motivation for developing SERE was to help the soldiers prepare for interrogation if captured (although I'm really not sure what to believe), but one of the main side benefits seems to have been that your torture techniques can be improved.

According to the sere affiliate and two other sources familiar with the program, after September 11th several psychologists versed in sere techniques began advising interrogators at Guantánamo Bay and elsewhere. Some of these psychologists essentially “tried to reverse-engineer” the sere program, as the affiliate put it.

("The Experiment by Jane Mayer")
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/07/11/050711fa_fact4?currentPage=all

"This is the missing link," declared Leonard Rubenstein, executive director of Physicians for Human Rights. "It is proof that the SERE training was in fact used, for a time at least, as a basis for interrogations at Guantánamo."

("The Torture School")
http://www.unbossed.com/index.php?itemid=999

Note that these articles are from 2005 and 2006! What the fuck have we been doing for so long.
I'm a pretty cynical guy, but the deeper you go into this, the more you start to think, this can't be true, they wouldn't do THAT. And then you find they do, and did.

[riverdeep]

125. self-delete

Sorry, I had some second thoughts on the veracity of this source and until that's confirmed would just take the conversation in a bad way, and just deleted.

[earthworship]

141. I can't believe we have some that condone torture

the same crime we committed to death to some Japanese in WW2 who performed it.