I hold nothing against Obama holding back the pictures

[TwixVoy]

If what they are said to contain is true, for example children being sodomized, they should not be released to the public. Obama is right not to release them to the general public. Anyone who wants to have such pictures floating in the general public is questionable in my book, and anyone sick enough to actually download them should be considered a pedophile and prosecuted under the law as such.

They should be shown in the court system for the purpose of prosecuting crimes. Period. Not sent to any sick bastard who wants them on demand.

[BuyingThyme]

1. If we don't know what's going on, we cannot stop it.

They're not going to release unedited graphic photos of children being sodomized.

[OhioChick]

3. Good point. n/t

[TwixVoy]

5. We already know

So there is no reason for Obama to release photos of children being sodomized, is there?

The only people who need such photos are the people sitting in a court room, and I have not heard Obama say they won't be available to the courts.

[BuyingThyme]

7. They're not going to release photos of children being sodomized no matter what.

Unless they're edited to the point where you can't tell what's actually going on without reading an accompanying caption.

[choie]

36. WE already know...but "joe six pack" doesn't have a clue ...

or if he does, he refuses to believe it.

[Eric J in MN]

2. There will be no prosecutions without public demand.

There will be no changes in the law without public demand.

If torture is kept in the dark, then the next Republican administration can decide that Jay Bybee was right and anything less painful than organ failure isn't torture.

[Echo In Light]

Bingo! Hence the need to focus on waterboarding alone, not murder and rape, etc

[Dark]

4. If shown in the courts, they become public record.

I'm kind of mixed on the whole thing. On the one hand, we need to know just what we have done as a nation -- what we have condoned, either explicitly or tacitly. We need to face our horrific situation. We need to see what it is that our nation has become, warts and all.

On the other hand, it's certainly going to be hard for a child to grow up with a picture floating around of him/her being sodomized.

[TwixVoy]

6. Bull shit

There are PLENTY of such cases prosecuted around the country for such crimes. Those images are not available on demand to anyone who wants them.

And guess what? Those cases get prosecuted just fine with out the general populace having the images.

[Dark]

22. Uh, no. While there were secret trials, and Judges can seal certain rulings,

evidence placed does become public record and can be requested.

[DJ13]

8. You took the extreme example

No one expected the photos involving children to be released.

[TwixVoy]

10. That must be why

there is a 300+ post thread going on bashing Obama for making this responsible decision.

[DJ13]

14. Another extreme

People feel he is violating their belief in him to tell the truth.

No one expected the most graphic of photos, but they wanted to know that Obama would follow through on his word.

Was that too much to ask?

[TwilightZone]

17. I don't see anyone asking for a selective release of some of the photos.

I see plenty of people demanding that *all* be released, including the most graphic.

[mmonk]

9. I do. Without proof, people will believe only what they want to

and the media won't report it.

[TwixVoy]

11. So you are telling me if Obama release images of children being sodomized

you would download them?

[mmonk]

15. No, can't see anywhere I said that. But you probably knew that.

But for once, we could see the mainstream media tell the American people what the pictures consisted of. In other words, we don't actually have to see them as citizens, but the media would have to confirm to the people nationally and I doubt they would show them.

[Echo In Light]

16. "what the pictures consisted of" would DEFINITELY shift the current, preferred waterboarding focus

[mmonk]

19. Yes, we need to get off the false illusion and debate

that we only tortured confirmed terrorists that yielded info under water boarding.

[OhioChick]

12. Bingo!

Would the public believe what happened at Abu Ghraib had the photos not been made public?

[FiveGoodMen]

27. Exactly!

:fistbump:

[lob1]

13. The pubs are out there saying we need to torture more, not less.

Let the bastards defend raping children. Watch people get really mad at the child rape defenders. If everyone realizes what is hidden behind the word "torture", as a nation we'll be repulsed and not do it anymore. But it won't happen without the pics.

[Echo In Light]

18. Precisely. This move only supports the Right's view, which is exactly WHY it's happening

[earth mom]

20. You make a good point, but how else to get the truth out there?

I want * & Co tried, convicted and punished for this shit and they won't be if all the evidence is covered up.

[wileedog]

25. These photos are not going to make that happen

If there a hint of incrimination in them over and above what has already been released then court proceedings could start whether you see them or not.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Works for me. Provided they really do get used in court... now... today. n/t

[Ignis]

23. So Sy Hersch is a pedophile?

"anyone sick enough to actually download them should be considered a pedophile and prosecuted under the law as such."

The mind boggles at your mental gymnastics here. :shrug:

[Echo In Light]

26. Never underestimate the power of denial

[MADem]

24. I observe that many of the "Gimme pics" people here do not understand that the pictures are

attachments to COMPLETED investigations.

These aren't ongoing "J'accuse!!" photos where we have to track down the evildoers and punish them. They're pictures that were used to punish evildoers already. They are enclosures to completed --not ongoing, completed--investigations.

I get the impression that a lot of people want these pictures out there so that "someone" can "take action" and "bring bad people to justice."

That's already happened. The release of the pictures would only serve to humiliate the people in the pictures yet again, to anger those who objected to the behavior anew, and to give jollies to sickos who like that disgusting shit.

Release, to me, would be more of a voyeuristic issue than a matter of justice at this stage of the game. We don't routinely release graphic pictures from rape and murder investigations.

[mmonk]

30. I was unaware the designers or orderers of our torture apparatus were brought to justice.

I thought "the few bad apples" were brought to justice. I was also unaware my neighbors know about the rape of children and women.

[MADem]

37. These pictures that some are so eager to see are specifically from

"completed investigations."

They're enclosures to reports. Done deals. Finished. Not ongoing. The pictures were used to illustrate the excesses that were investigated when dealing with specific people. None of these pictures are from "open" investigations.

Go listen to the President's press conference. There seems to be a misapprehension here about where these pictures are coming from.

Again, "designers" or "orderers" have nothing to do with these pictures. You want to go after them, these pictures don't help you, because these pictures depict activities that they did not approve. That's why these activities were investigated.

See--the Bush administration of your "designers/orderers" was the one that conducted these investigations and punished those who stepped over the line that they, themselves, drew.

The issue of what your "designers" found acceptable is an entirely different discussion. But these pictures depict activities that even those "designers" found unacceptable.

This is not a defense of the Bush administration and their overall policy with regard to "enhanced interrogation/torture." But your logic for wanting to see the pictures isn't holding up. The Bush administration did not approve this depicted behavior--they investigated and punished it.

Again, I don't need to see these pictures to know what took place. I don't need to see grisly crime scene photos to know that a crime took place, either.

[mike_c]

28. the problem is, there won't be any court prosecution unless...

...there is sufficient general outrage. Also, it's high time to smash American exceptionalism. We need to know what our military does in our names. Finally, there is the matter of broader accountability. Broader than criminal accountability, I mean. We paid for those crimes, we elected the officials who set those policies, and so on. We have a RIGHT to know what was done.

[mikelgb]

29. So if a prosecutor wanted to look at them to make a case she is a pedophile?

[FiveGoodMen]

31. With our insane sex laws, that might be true.

Let's not overlook that fact that if something's too bad to look at, it's way too bad to engage in.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Mike 03]

33. Could they be released under strict rules and sealed from wider dissemination?

Could an independent committee examine them with an eye towards making a list of people who committed these acts and charges?

Any crimes committed against minors would be sealed, or at least that is my understanding.

You can still conduct a trial without the evidence being shown to the public, at least in cases where minors are involved. Think of how many crimescene photos (of famous serial killers) have never seen the light of day.

Obviously some measures can be taken to restrict their publication.

But I simply do not believe they should be sealed from EVERYONE for all of eternity. These crimes deserve to be evaluated and, if so deemed, vigorously prosecuted.

[noamnety]

34. Has Obama ever said

"We are not releasing them because they show our soldiers sodomizing children"?

That, to me, is the issue. I don't need to see the photos, but I need someone in that office to acknowledge publicly in no uncertain terms that this is what we did, and to formally condemn it and apologize to the world for it, and to publicly commit to prosecuting everyone involved at any level regardless of party affiliation.

I am not watching the news every night, so I don't know if he's done that. The only person I've seen come out and say that is a private reporter, which is an inappropriate way for our country to take responsibility for our actions.

[Horse with no Name]

35. Truth and transparency are the best disinfectant

You do realize that there is a sizable group of people who do NOT believe that torture happened, who do NOT believe that we tortured simply BECAUSE the photos have not been released?
When you have republican spinmeisters like O'Leilley, rush, et al telling them that this did NOT happen...how do you combat that?
How do you crush their glass houses and make them open their eyes to the truth?
How do convince the Christian fundamentalists that THIS is what they bought with their unfettered support?
Pictures are historical. I am pretty certain Germany might have agreed with you at one point in history. Heaven forbid the world should SEE what horrors their government unleashed on Jews.
The written word can be altered or simply not read, but when you have photographic evidence that is seen by the majority of the population--generally the good will triumph evil and as a country, it should make us vow never again...not in OUR name.