If we're worried that the pics might endanger our troops, then WHY DID THEY TORTURE???

[Taverner]

Simple question

No answers...

[leftstreet]

1. If the Pentagon is worried about the troops, they should bring them home

[Taverner]

3. 100% agreed

[malaise]

46. Ditto

but they don't give a shit about the troops.

[bunnies]

2. Because it was supposed to be a secret...

What people dont know cant hurt 'em. :shrug:

on edit: follow up question.... Why are there pics at all?

[leftstreet]

6. No one ever asks that

"Why are there pics at all?"

Makes you wonder...

[bunnies]

13. Yep. Why take a photo that no one is ever supposed to see?!

Makes no sense at all.

Best way to get caught doing something wrong? Have a photo of you doing it! :shrug:

[Canuckistanian]

52. They were PROUD of it, that's why

See? We're giving "those ragheads" what they deserved! They asked for it! We've got to take them down a peg!

Ignorance and stupidity RULED back in those early days. And why not? No one was exactly stopping them, were they?

It was all, "They HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOMS", remember? Spurred on by Rush on AFN, they were convinced they were on a mission from GAWD himself.

So, by taking a picture they were DOCUMENTING their patriotism!

If nothing else, this "jingoism" and it's proponents need to be ground into the dirt. They should NEVER be welcomed into civil society again.

From the lowliest grunt to the highest of "decision makers". They're ALL guilty.

[EFerrari]

8. A secret that involved hundreds of people and all over the world.

:shrug:

And that's why there are pictures. You can't keep something that big secret.

[bunnies]

18. So then they'd have to know they'd get caught...

But why the pictures? Otherwise its words vs words. Easier to deny, I'd think.

[EFerrari]

23. I don't know who took these pictures. We already know that there are sick f#cks

who take them as trophies. It's possible that the torture program had some kind of file system going, too. And we know CIA videotaped interrogations as well.

It doesn't look to me as if Cheney was in any way concerned about being caught.

[bunnies]

26. I'd love to know who took them.

Who actually stood there with a camera and photographed these tortured people. What the hell kind of person would DO that (for any other reason that reporting the abuse)? Sick fucks is right.

[Caliman73]

35. People are forgetting or do not know about Milgram and Zimbardo.

These two studies showed the ease with which people can be made to do things that are against their ethical code, especially within a heirarchical structure. There will always be people who stand their ground, but there are also many who comply with directives that are against what they stand for. You can say "sick fuck" but the truth is that these soldiers were most likely following directives from superiors. The military is an almost perfect environment for atrocities to be carried out as there is already a very tight heirarchy and also a sense that one must remain silent about dissent lest the security of the unit be compromised. This is not an excuse for the actions of the soldiers, everyone involved needs to be prosecuted, it is just an explaination of the dynamic that can easily occur within a heirarchical structure in time of stress.

[bunnies]

40. Like that Lindy woman.

And isnt she in prison? :shrug: Looks like she'll be the only one punished. What a joke.

[Echo In Light]

43. True. The overarching structure, however, is still PNAC

[Caliman73]

48. true

Someone studied up on their "1984". Continual armed struggle and anxiety about security will eventually erode any sense of commonality and render outsiders as "enemies of the state" which are eligible for destruction. That is definitely a PNAC desire while they continue to make profit off of the endless war.

[Echo In Light]

27. Part of the PNAC blueprint - the pics were used to further incite locals and coax them to organize..

...that way that resistance can be labeled "terror groups" and sold as such in American media.

As for being caught - big fucking deal. They've got NOTHING to worry about along those lines, in this country, anyway, and they know it.

[DJ13]

Why are there pics at all?

Cheney pornography.

[bunnies]

20. Seriously.

Naked men with hoods on piled atop one another? Sounds like porn to me!

[Echo In Light]

28. PNAC

[bunnies]

30. hmm. Hadnt thought of that one.

A perfect way to encourage the perpetual war...

I think you're onto something!!

[Echo In Light]

34. A war-like mindset requires opposing conflict, even if only a marginal % that can be...

...embelished and exploited within the aggressor's 'homeland' media system.

If you have a phony democracy, and elements within that power structure inflict a wound on their own country and use it to bolster public support for what they had already planned to do all along, those elements require an enemy to keep the ruse ongoing, even if they're by and large fabricating that enemy as justification for otherwise would be seen for what it is, naked aggression.

Invading/occupying a country will yield some of that, of course - but rounding up ordinary citizens in prison camps and sending out pictures to their communities of their friends/family being tortured is a way of ensuring more opposition, which is what they want - they WANT the conflict to continue.

[bunnies]

39. So where does that leave us at this point?

Seems like the pictures exist because Cheney et al always knew (and needed) them to be exposed. If Obama releases *more* photos wouldnt he be doing the PNAC's bidding? :shrug:

[Echo In Light]

42. No, not in the context of holding the guilty accountable - but that'll NEVER happen precisely....

...because of this entire nefarious PNAC/9/11/phony war thing. How could it? Of course the country's establishment powers have no want of sabotaging themselves.

It's one of those situations where no one wants to start making a clean spot in what's invariably a VERY large, VERY dirty area. That's why any accountability that stems from this (provided the international community pushes hard) will at best be very marginalized and closely managed. Way too many skeletons in the closet to go beyond that, and they can't hold one person/group accountable w/o incriminating large segments of our govt/military/corporate structure, and the various organizations and institutes many are beholden to. Never happen.

[bunnies]

45. I am so glad I'm not the one in Obamas position.

Until now I'd yet to weigh in on the photos: release them or not debate as I wasnt quite sure just how I felt or why. But I think you just perfectly summed up the reason I continually go back and forth on the issue. Well reasoned and well said. :thumbsup:

OT: are you a writer?

[Arctic Dave]

4. They are bad enough that they can't release them because a fear

of backlash but they aren't bad enought to prosecute for war crimes? Fippity flop goes the logic.

[Marr]

29. Excellent point.

[ShortnFiery]

5. Now now, we are not supposed to ask probing questions. The leaders - oops - the troops

will suffer if the pictures are released. That's all we are supposed to know and parrot.

BTW aren't the troops already in WAR ZONES within both nations, who, by now, unilaterally hate the thought of a foreign power occupying them.

Oh, but they already HATE us and want us out of their nations?

How does that make the photos any more dangerous ... I don't think they could hate us MORE? :shrug:

[Echo In Light]

12. Exactly. This "protective measure" is bullshit damage control for the public here...

The rest of the world already knows what's what. Best to keep the issue framed as 'just' waterboarding, and, does that REALLY constitute torture?

[Zodiak]

44. Earler, another DUer referred to the trooops as "innocents"

As if people who are trained to kill, given guns, and occupy a foreign land are innocent. They are not, which is why they are legal targets in a war.

I am not allowing our atrocities to remain in the dark to protect troops....it is a ridiculous argument more derived from jingoism than logic or the rule of law.

[Echo In Light]

7. If 'they' actually CARED about troops, why send them to kill & be killed in acts of aggression?

Can't have it both ways

[NNN0LHI]

9. Thirty-nine percent of Marines and 36 percent of soldiers said torture should be allowed

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003581405

Study: Many U.S. Soldiers in Iraq Admit Abusing Civilians, Backing Torture

Published: May 05, 2007 9:25 AM ET

WASHINGTON In a survey of U.S. troops in combat in Iraq, less than half of Marines soldiers said they feel they should treat noncombatants with respect. Only about a half said they would report a member of their unit for killing or wounding an innocent civilian.

More than 40 percent support the idea of torture in some cases, and 10 percent reported personally abusing Iraqi civilians, the Pentagon said Friday in what it called its first ethics study of troops at the war front. Units exposed to the most combat were chosen for the study, officials said.

[bdamomma]

17. how many contractors did the same thing abuse and rape civilians

they had no one to keep them in line.

[bdamomma]

10. that is why Cheney, Rummy and the rest of them should be prosecuted.

they signed off on this, damn them, they just kicked laws aside.

[Taverner]

14. Prosecuted in the Hague

That's the only place we have a chance of seeing justice

If they were tried here I'd trust the trial as much as I did the trial of Pol Pot by the KR

[Echo In Light]

16. Can't bring them down w/o rattling hallowed institutions, so it aint about to happen

[Individualist]

11. That's the elephant in the room

The fact is that torturing prisoners in and of itself is what endangers our troops; pictures are secondary.

[jtrockville]

15. Right on! It's not the PHOTOS, it's the FACT that we TORTURED people.

[bdamomma]

22. something that we were totally against, and prosecuted other countries for.

now we are doing it, or were doing it. That is why we had the Geneva Conventions to prevent our troops being tortured from other people. It is just so sick, we have lost our way and our souls.

[jtrockville]

38. What sickens me as much as our war crimes, is...

the willingness of our leaders to stick their head in the sand, as if this wasn't an aggregious crime.

[Muttocracy]

19. secret torture intimidates the enemy; public torture inflames them

wait a minute...

[leftstreet]

21. er...uh...

(exactly)

[TahitiNut]

24. The sad fact of the matter is: NOBODY cares about "the troops"

"The troops" are exploited ... as cannon fodder for imperialists and whipping boys for the People. They're regarded as "useful idiots" by most -- even here -- and NOBODY risks even 1/4th what they risk in order to ensure that We The People are being served and properly represented.

After all ... there's no draft so who gives a flying fuck?

[Echo In Light]

33. While I know what you're getting at, I'd hope in the future far LESS will WANT to join

...because the real reason they're needed will be more commonplace/common knowledge within the public mind.

Subtract the phony "protecting America" bullshit (protecting tyrants? wtf?) and not many will enlist once they realize they're being swindled by fascists into being mercenaries for vested, corporate, profits over people intere$ts.

[Bluerthanblue]

49. word-

but i give a flying fuck.

And so should all of us.

peace~

[chrisa]

53. "The Troops" is a slogan.

Used to create strawman attacks against the anti-war crowd. If these guys cared about 'The Troops,' they wouldn't force them to armor their humvees with pieces of scrap metal.

[sandnsea]

25. If the pictures endanger the troops -

then most certainly the torture itself does, which is the exact point Democrats have been making.

[Soylent Brice]

31. K&R

excellent question.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Joanne98]

36. Why did they take the pictures? To jack off with?

[Echo In Light]

37. PNAC

[Taverner]

47. Yes - to jack off with

This cruelty is inherent in all humans

Whether we like to admit it or not

Just take a look at the Milgram Experiment...

[kster]

54. I'd guess for their own protection,

If you saw your friends (troops) being tried and jailed for torturing, even though they where ordered to torture wouldn't you in the future take pictures in order to show that it wasn't just a couple bad apples messing around, but that it was a common occurrance.

With these pictures, the militaries higher ups can't throw one of them in jail, to cover things up, with many photos. The ones being ordered to torture protect themselves from being a scape goat, in the future.



Just thinking outloud here.

[Hubert Flottz]

41. Because contrary to all the "I support the troops" bullshit

tossed around by guys like Bush and Cheney and the rest of the GOP, they didn't really give a rat's ass about the harm this kind of shit might cause the troops.

[Bluerthanblue]

50. it'd follow that neither do 'we' if all that matters is releasing the photos NOW-

regardless of what impact that will have on our men and women on the ground.


:shrug:

so 'we' are no better.

[Hubert Flottz]

55. "WE"...

We're not the party that came up with the bright idea that we could go medieval on prisoners of war and expect that other countries wouldn't pay our troops back in kind, when the bad guys capture our troopers.

We were NEVER the party who defended such crazy shit. I hope WE won't become the party that covers for the people who did circumvent and mock the laws and commit war crimes. To do so in my view, would be about the same as driving a getaway car for a crew of murdering bank bandits or a gang of serial killers.

One of the first things Obama did was to stop any further use of "Enhanced Interrogation"(torture) by anyone connected to the USA.

[Sheepshank]

51. the reason for...

torture is so that some people can get that 'rush'. That 'high' from wielding the type of power that can and will cause people to beg for mercy, cause pain. Those embroiled with the process assume they have control over another's mind. it's a power trip on very many levels, and some get a hard on for that type of power. The reason for pictures is so that they have proof that the power is in fact being wielded.

Reminds me of the old witch/queen on Snow White. The hunter was supposed to bring back Snow White's heart as proof of the killing deed. Pictures are proof of the torturing deed. They can look and smile at their handiwork.