So I guess Obama is saying the torture photos can never be released

[bigtree]

. . . as long as U.S. troops are somewhere in a combat zone?

The word is that the president has bought the hawks in the Pentagon's argument that 'troops would be in danger' if the photos are released. I think he just caved to the republican opposition who've raised that argument from the beginning. I can't see where anything has changed since the initial announcement they would be released except the politics. What a joke. This comes from listening and kowtowing too much to the right. I just don't understand this posturing, given his popularity.

What I really don't understand is the polar opposite position taken today from the initial one. One day he's for the public's right to know and lets himself be celebrated for it, and the next moment he's suddenly concerned about the effect on the troops.

He might as well go all the way and cover it all up. He obviously has no stomach for the adverse politics associated with ensuring justice is done in these cases. If he can't allow the release of this evidence, he'll never generate enough steam for any significant actions against the offenders.

What would be the value in an Obama prosecution which is so shy about showing the American people the truth and having enough respect for us that we can handle the consequences? What a goddamn shame. It's not like the terrorists don't already know the U.S. military engaged in these acts. Now, where does the rapprochement to the Muslim community come from? What do we say? 'Look how we hushed this all up? See how we've changed?'


I don't know . . . I'm just tired of all the backsliding. It feels slimy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. Rug meets broom.

[Atman]

2. The right will be thrilled. It covers their asses, and will cause Obama's approvals to drop

All in one fell swoop. BRILLIANT!

.

[Thrill]

5. Oh please. Overreact much? Why the hell do we need to see these photos?

We know what happened there. His approval won't fall because of it

[truebrit71]

26. Bush doesn't show them = cover-up. Obama doesn't show them = "why do we need to see them"?

Pardon me while I :puke:

I thought that sort of convoluted apologist bullshit was the exclusive domain of republicans..

I obviously thought wrong..

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. Yeah I noticed that as well... n/t

[cboy4]

47. Yup, you were wrong!

I'll bet in the other forum, it's easily 90 percent don't release them for the precise reason you just cited.

[Uncle Joe]

41. To build public momentum for prosecution against those people that drafted, legalized and enabled

torture to take place.

I also believe the troops safety would be enhanced by these disclosures and the followup prosecutions because it would show once and for all, the United States is a nation of laws and we don't tolerate torture.

[Octafish]

57. Then the United States of America's standing would go up in the world.

Thank you for an excellent post, Uncle Joe.

[Soylent Brice]

83. agreed.

[northernlights]

70. most Americans *don't* know what happened there

And they need to see the photos to understand in full what was done in their names with their tax dollars. Seeing is believing.

It's all too easy to "just move on" when atrocities occur if you don't actually see the atrocities...or hear the screams.

[Ignis]

79. We keep making this point. They're not listening.

I haven't seen a single anti-photo-release poster respond to that point. I wonder why. :shrug:

[countingbluecars]

7. I think you might be wrong about his approval

ratings. My guess is that the majority of the American people will back Obama in this decision.

[derby378]

14. I sure as hell don't

It sure looks like someone at the top has something to hide.

I know Seymour Hersh has been talking about photos and videos of teenage Iraqi boys being raped by interrogators, which I'm sure those of more delicate constitutions never want to see in their entire lives. Until those images are confirmed to exist, however, it's mostly just talk. But there are so many images of adults being tortured and humiliated that must be made public, and doing so will strengthen the case for prosecuting those responsible for the torture.

[Justitia]

3. I'm guessing they have boxed him into some impossible position.

I can only IMAGINE what is going on behind the scenes with the White House, the Pentagon, the Joint Chiefs, the Justice Dept and the ACLU.

This puts the crushing weight of the world squarely on his shoulders, and NO OUTCOME will be a good one.

[pleah]

4. I think that is a pathetic excuse for not releasing that evidence.

The soldiers are already in danger, IT CAN'T GET ANY WORSE FOR THEM.

[Thrill]

6. Evidence of what? We've already seen photos of it. Its stupid to drum it up again

[bdamomma]

9. we did not see all of them.

[Thrill]

17. Seeing the rest of them does what? The soldiers have already been punished.

They aren't going to be punished anymore.

[derby378]

18. Not all of them...

Only a handful at Abu Ghraib have ever faced charges, let alone served time.

[Echo In Light]

19. This move hasn't fuck all to do w/"the soldiers," and you know it

[Thrill]

60. Showing the pictures doesn't do a damn thing

No one is going to be punished for it. The only ones that come out looking bad is the country. Its a stupid waste of fucking time

[Echo In Light]

66. The damage control only works for the brainwashed here...

...not on the rest of the world that looks at this objectively, not subjectively, within the context of seeking to downplay war crimes

[Individualist]

78. Hear, hear!

The apologists can spin like tops, but they can't make this come out smelling like a rose.

[AlinPA]

20. It is a very hard decision, but it does provide cover for the republicans. Recall they

supported the actions at Abu Ghraib as "college pranks". Obama undoubtedly sees the photos as shaming America rather than the bravado that the republicans displayed.

[Caliman73]

68. Disagree

Have you been watching or reading ANY news at all? There are people who still believe that what was done at Gitmo, Abu Grahib, and Bahgram was not torture, or was somehow justified. If we do not confront this situation and bring to justice ALL of those responsible for allowing this to happen, then we are no better than any other nation who has deprived others of their human rights and dignity. We know that the President did not have any part of what happened so he is clean and is the exact right person to continue to discuss the issue. Some people in the Congress are afraid because their hands are not clean on this. They should be afraid, they either participated or did not stop illegal acts from being done.

[FrenchieCat]

8. We have already seen pictures.

Rubbing salt into the torture wounds isn't the winner that some would want to think.

Considering this is close to Memorial Day, and that our President has apologized and stated that this will no longer happen, and that he will be speaking in Egypt very shortly, I think says more than those photos could ever say.

If these were the first sets of pics being shown, and if we were not already seriously discussing torture with having those memos release, then yes, they would be required. But considering, I don't see how it sheds any light on anything, and regardless of what we would like, our soldier are still out there in foreign lands. I think that they should, however, at some point be released, just because they exist if for no other reason.

[bdamomma]

11. sooner or later they will sneaked into the public eye.

get ready for some repercussions from it too.

[The Hope Mobile]

15. Agreed. They could maybe use them in court to be sure these guys

stay behind bars but it really would put our guys in much more danger and Obama is making the right moves to improve relations in those parts of the world but I'm not sure there can be much value in releasing them until there is some serious emotional distance from this situation. What we've seen so far only scratches the surface. It would put us right in the same league as Nazi Germany or worse in the minds and hearts of the rest of the world.

[RetroLounge]

10. Obama and Torture apologists all in one thread

WINNER!

:puke:

RL

[Hubert Flottz]

12. If the DoD and CIA were not doing anything wrong then

what are they afraid of?

[bdamomma]

71. they are covering their a$$es both the DOD and the CIA.

[Taverner]

13. Fuck this bully nation - the US has no moral grounds to stand on

[wiggs]

16. I think it's a legitimate point...but in no way does it excuse complicity

in torture. There are plenty of ways the administration can expose the Bush administration torture misdeeds without the photos. The photos and many other documents could be described, or acknowledged, and the administration could finally indicate how it or the DOJ or congress will proceed. I'm fine with the horrible photos not being out there, but PO or DOJ MUST respond to these crimes in some forceful and just way.

Obama must know, more than the rest of us, how much of a rogue and criminal administration preceded him. I'm really hoping he has an overall master plan of how he wants this to progress and that it involves jailtime for Cheney and Rove. There is an overall big picture, of which torture is but a portion, of wrongdoing that has to be woven together into a case of war crimes.

[peace13]

21. I am for not showing the photos, but prosecuting the torturers.

No one needs to see and hear the awful things that are held in those photos and recordings. These are not movies and porn torture shots, they are people who had lives before America swooped in and destroyed them. I do not have to see my friends rape to know how awful it was. I need to make certain that the rapist is not set free. Let's focus on the prosecution of the awful 'humans' who are responsible for these acts. And please if I am raped, do not put my picture on the front page, get off of your butt and help me bring the attacker to justice.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

30. Oh I disagree

I think every single asshole who says that we don't torture - we use "ENHANCED INTERROGATION" techniques needs to see and hear what this shit looks and sounds like.

I am sick of the Joe Scarboroughs' and the Lynn Cheney"s of this country singing the praises of "enhanced interrogation"

I want them to see how vile it is.

This is important and the evidence should not be hidden away.

[peace13]

55. Well the pile of naked men, the dogs up the face of prisoners,

the fake electrodes on hanging victims. All of these photos have been published and a rational person could say that, yes, we torture. If you are thinking that publishing photos of victims of physical and mental abuse will convince Dirty Joe you are very wrong. Nothing....NOTHING, will convince him or his fellow idiots. They are lying and they know it. What you propose to do will backfire. Next time you are splayed out naked with a broom up your ass let me know it you would feel better if the whole world could see you at just that moment.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

64. I want the truth

to be out in the open.

You would rather sweep it all nice and neat under a rug.

I have been disgusted by what my country has been doing.

Oh, and the pile of naked people photos? Guess what, the asshats on the Right? They are not reasonable... They said it wasn't any big deal. They sang the praises of those photos. They claimed it was not torture at all. That IS the point. They have to be exposed for the idiots that they are. The longer they deny, the kookier they look.

My neighbor, a flag waiving right winger stood in my front yard and told me that piling naked men in a room was not anything even close to torture - and the electrodes weren't real... so that wasn't a big deal....

What I propose to do?

I propose that the evidence be open... AS PROMISED.

Obama said he would make it all available. Now his tune changes. This is change but not in the good way.

[peace13]

67. Your ignorant neighbor will not be impressed with the next batch of photos.

Sorry to disappoint you. You will prove nothing to the world. Evidence is out there, photos that we torture. You will feed the perverts with more psycho porn. Is that the goal? Please show me a link to Obama's PROMISE to show the torture pictures. That would be a good start. Good luck with you neighbor.

[leftstreet]

22. Easy Solution: Bring the Troops Home!

Then release the photos!

If the Pentagon's so f**king worried about the safety of the troops (yeah right) then wtf are they doing there in the first place?

[peace13]

24. Troops home now! n/t

[Born_A_Truman]

23. Gibbs on MSNBC live now discussing this

[cboy4]

25. Everyone knows if McCain was President, every last one

of us would be screaming for them to be released.

But apologists aren't so good with logic.

[Echo In Light]

28. Bingo

[TwilightGardener]

31. I'm fine with them not being released, if there's a possibilty of endangering

our service personnel and diplomats in Islamic areas. We know they exist, we can be told what's in them, not sure what further purpose it serves to release them at this time. I think Pres. Obama is making the right decision.

[Echo In Light]

34. But you see, it's the job of politicians to LIE to protect crimes of the state

So, the "protect the troops" bullshit is just that - bull. shit.

[TwilightGardener]

42. I don't think Obama's protecting anybody politically. I believe he's acting

out of genuine concern for the fallout that may occur when releasing material that's inflammatory, and that may impede our progress in wrapping up our wars and re-establishing better relations with the Muslim world. Sometimes wanting to see pictures for the sake of seeing them, wanting to be outraged, wanting revenge, etc., is not a good enough reason to release them. Cooler heads must prevail.

[Echo In Light]

46. You honestly believe our presidents are the sole decision makers?

[TwilightGardener]

56. No. But releasing the photos isn't going to suddenly implicate anyone

in the administration or Congress. It's not going to reveal something we didn't know. It's not going to add anything relevant to investigations or legal proceedings. If the earlier Abu Graibh photos and accounts, and the pointless and tragic Iraq War itself, and the issue of torture didn't make Americans sick to their stomachs and rise up and revolt, a few aftershocks of disgusting and shameful photos aren't going to be the final straw for the average citizen. It may be, however, for those who wish to seek revenge on our military personnel and civilians around the world.

[Echo In Light]

63. Americans forget overnight, and given the focus on "waterboarding," and "was it torture?"

...you bet they need to be reminded of this sad country's place in the world's eyes

[cboy4]

43. The radicals aren't idiots. They know all of that happened

under a different administration where torture was given a nod and a wink.

Obama has said he has a completely different view on this.

But I don't want him getting into the business of sneaky and cover-up .. something as you know Bush et al perfected for eight miserable years.

The people who want to kill American troops want to kill them regardless of whether the photos are released or not.

Why?

Because we're occupying two Islamic countries.

That's all the radicals need to understand to set them off.

[TwilightGardener]

48. I think his motives are solid and well-intentioned--I don't think he's headed

down a "sneaky cover-up" road just because of this. What you say about radical Muslims already being angry at us is true, but sometime's there's already too much gas on the fire, don't need more, unless it serves a real purpose or is a step toward peace.

[peace13]

45. I don't agree with you.

These are not movies or models, they are real people. If you want to help them, then fight for the prosecution of their attackers. You do not have to see the gang rape to know what it might have looked like. Put your outrage toward getting some justice for these victims!

[cboy4]

53. Of course we need to see them. We need to see what

so-called enhanced interrogation techniques look at up and close, so there's a visual reminder on the record not to do it again.

There are too many people still with their heads in the sand for these photos to be swept under the rug.

And again, DUers would be in the streets with pitchforks if this were a Republican administration trying to block them.

[peace13]

61. There are photos already out there!!!!!!

We are becoming desensitized to the evils of the world by showing torture over and over. I feel the same way about the water-board guy that is shown over and over by the media. Hey he survived so maybe it's not torture. And who cares if we pile up the naked brown men, or hang them in capes with fake electrodes to their nads. Most Americans don't care, there are some who will actually get off on it and then there are those who will use these photos as tools to rage against us. Words can be used to describe the photos in a court of law. Judges or juries can look at the evidence. I feel that the victim deserves some respect in this. But hey, if you want to publish all of this evil and pain expect many a folk to jerk off to it. That is what I am opposed to. Rape me if you must but for god's sake please don't run the video for the other whack jobs to enjoy. We are a sick society! I will say that.

[cboy4]

69. So you're telling me if Sarah Palin was VP right now and

she was going on and on about how Amare-i-cans shouldn't have to see the photos. Why we should all be having fun playing soccer and thanking Jesus for being the greatest country on earth.

You would be telling me every word of what you just posted?

That's admirable if so, because I respect consistency.

I don't, however, respect flip-flopping based on whether it's a (D) or an (R) in the White House.

And yes, I know there are photos out there.

What do these show? Hiding evil is never a good option.

[peace13]

76. If an honest prosecution was going forward under Palin then I would be saying the same thing.

Maybe some people are wired differently, but I have seen enough of the * torture photos. I believe that is is real and I believe that my mind can imagine how awful it was. We have seen some horrible photos already but we have been desensitized to them. If you watch enough porn pretty soon it doesn't mean anything. Do not get me wrong. There must be a trial, a prosecution, jail time and more for those who have pulled our country to her knees. I don't have to see a broom up the ass to know how awful it would look. I don't want to see children being raped because I could do nothing to stop it. If a jury sees the evidence...well that is enough for me. Peace, Kim

[librechik]

27. How does Obama explain his contempt of the court's decision to release them?

Does The President really have the right to unilaterally overturn that decision to release?

I don't think so.

Release them and let the chips fall where they may. If we as a nation are so fragile that acknowledging reality will bring us down, then so be it.

[EFerrari]

39. The reporting is screwy. Obama can't order them not to be released.

He can have his lawyers make an argument to the Court.

[Justitia]

44. True. Mmmm. -eom

[EFerrari]

51. I don't know that court at all but it looks like most people expect the Court

to go with the President. In any case, that's how it would work.

/oops

[Spazito]

50. Exactly! His administration has decided to appeal the last decision...

so it goes back to the courts. He cannot decide unilaterally to keep the photos from the public once the issue enters the courts. The media, as usual, distorts the facts, sadly.

[bigtree]

49. Gates had said in his initial decision to release them that they'd come out anyway

I don't understand the stall, then.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

77. I was going to mention this and thank you for bringing this up.

[Gregorian]

29. Perhaps it's too soon. Perhaps I'm a fool.

My first emotion was defeat. But now I'm not so sure. Could this be too soon to release them, for their full impact?

Maybe there are other cards that must be played before this unfolds properly. I can imagine that if the photos were released now, they would be ignored just like everything else that has happened over the last few years. Revealing the identity of a covert CIA agent was all but in the news. Had Obama pardoned Libby the Fox news world would have come crashing around him. So I'm thinking that Obama's ploy is to wait and wait and wait until the timing is most damning and powerful.

Maybe I'm a fool.

[bigtree]

32. chess

. . . never played it, myself.

[Justitia]

35. I'm hoping that the WH is working, out-thinking, the CIA & Bush admin. Stay tuned. -eom

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

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[Sp00kD out]

36. i fail to see how it matters.

There is no doubt that the photos exist. There is no doubt that the acts most likely depicted in these photos occurred. Why must we see them? Perhaps the only thing to be gained from release of these photos is public outrage...but, honestly, if there isn't already enough public outrage to force congressional hands to punish the criminals in the prior administration, I don't know if there will ever be. Whether we see them or not, they exist and it happened.

[Soylent Brice]

84. welcome to DU.

so, does this mean we should have never marched Germans citizens through the concentration camps?

[struggle4progress]

37. Do you have an actual Obama quote? ... No? ... Why am I not surprised?

[bigtree]

40. are you in a closet somewhere?

I'm never shy about posting links, but, in your snide case, I'll just suggest you open up any of the reports on this and read it for yourself.

[struggle4progress]

74. I've looked at dozens of stories on this today, and I'm not impressed so far with what I see:

MAY 13, 2009, 1:28 P.M. ET
Obama Opposes Release of Detainee Abuse Photos
... an administration official said Wednesday ... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124223286506515765.html

Barack Obama orders halt to White House plans to release photos showing abuse of terror suspects by US soldiers
By David Gardner
Last updated at 7:33 PM on 13th May 2009
... aides say ... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1181358/Barack-Obama-orders-halt-White-House-plans-release-photos-showing-abuse-terror-suspects-US-soldiers.html

Obama Halts Release Of Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Photos
May 13, 2009 2:27 p.m. EST
... According to a Defense Department official ... http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7015127107

I really prefer extensive attributed quotes with context when I attempt to understand what's happening: I've been trying to get a clear view of this for about the last five hours today, by following stories through multiple links, and -- as the above random sample might suggest -- your advice ("I'll just suggest you open up any of the reports on this and read it for yourself") hasn't produced much definitive yet. But thanks for playing

[QueenOfCalifornia]

52. Try this...

turn on the tv or use the google.

Bigtree is not hallucinating.

[struggle4progress]

75. Thank you so much for that entirely useless response. I've read dozens of stories on this today,

and mostly what I've found is anonymous claims and fragmentary quotes

I noted in a post ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3874919&mesg_id=3875001 ) around 12:30 EST that Gibbs might address this around 1:30 but I haven't yet seen a complete transcript

So I'm not forming an opinion on what is actually happening until I know exactly who is saying exactly what

[Mari333]

54. he could bring all the troops home and they would be safe

he wont, because we have them there only to protect the OIL CORPORATIONS INTERESTS. thats it. to secure the pipeline in afghanistan and keep those oil company contracts flowing in Iraq.
and keep our 'puppet govts' in place.
he could make our soldiers very safe indeed if he stopped licking the hands of corporations and the defense dept, and bring them home.


and the photos should be released.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/139983/pipeline-istan%3A_everything_you_need_to_know_about_oil%2C_gas%2C_russia%2C_china%2C_iran%2C_afghanistan_and_obama/

[EFerrari]

58. There goes my "watch what he does, not what he says" argument.

[FloriTexan]

59. So then, lets set a precedent...

Henceforth, we should release ALL photos depicting abuse or murder, regardless of whether they are of Iraqi detainees, adults or children. Release them ALL regardless of where they occured or who committed the atrocity, whether it was in Iraq or the U.S., or if the victims or suspects were Iraqis or U.S. citizens. Lets release ALL photos regardless of their classification as evidence of a crime. Lets release all photos without regard to whether the victims or their families, or the families of the suspects, will see them splayed across every tv and computer screen in the world.

:sarcasm:

[peace13]

62. The whisper of the voice of reason. n/t

[Echo In Light]

65. That has zero to do w/this govt's want of damage control re war crimes

[earth mom]

72. What a double standard around here. People were ALL over * & Co's ass about these photos.

But now for some people here, it's ok to hide the truth from the people of this country because the Obama administration is doing it.

What else are you gonna excuse? :puke:

[Individualist]

82. Disgusting, isn't it?

The "everything is okay as long as a Democrat does it" crowd are as bad as the freepers when the chimperor was in the White House.

[truth2power]

73. Obama's bought and paid for. What did you expect? ...

The filthy slime who signed off on the torture will get away scot free. We wouldn't want to look back now, would we??

[Ezlivin]

80. What about "CHAIN OF COMMAND" do you people not understand?

Release the photos and we can go up the chain of command.

As a former enlisted man I can assure you that the soldiers who followed orders got those orders from somewhere up the chain of command. They've punished a handful of "bad apples" but never went up the chain of command. Many officers should be in the brig right now.

If the photos are not released Americans will return to their somnolent state and continue to watch "American Idol" without a care in the world.

[jberryhill]

81. Ultimately, It Will Not Be Up To Him

If a court orders them released, and that is appealed up the line, he will release them.