Lindsey Graham: Bush admin saw law as unaffordable 'nicety'

[babylonsister]

http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2009/05/13/graham-bush-admin-saw-law-as-unaffordable-nicety/

Graham: Bush admin saw law as unaffordable 'nicety'
@ 10:23 am by Eric Zimmermann


In the midst of a spirited defense of the Bush administration's intentions in developing interrogation techniques, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) dropped a phrase that liberals may seize upon.

The Bush administration did not commit any crimes, Graham said, but "they saw the law as a nicety we could not afford." That's a view that squares pretty well with liberals' view that the Bush administration circumvented the law to reach conclusions it desired.

Graham, who said he disagreed with the Bush administration's legal rationale for waterboarding, nevertheless accused Democrats of politicizing the interrogation debate and attempting to criminalize their policy differences with Bush officials.

"The difference between the nobility of the law and a political stunt may be soon evident one way or another," Graham said. "And I don't know if this {hearing} is actually pursuing the nobility of the law."

Here's a video of Graham's opening statement {at link}. The remarks in question occur at about 12:00.

[liberalmuse]

1. He used that in DEFENSE of the Bush cabal's actions?

BWAHAHAHAHA! OMG, that is unreal. I wonder how many defense attorneys will use that in an attempt to get their clients charges dropped. I'm guessing none. And this quack is supposedly a lawyer? This is what we're up against. Innocuous stupidity and evil. I think someone should tell Graham that the worst criminals in history, like Hitler, Stalin and the like felt the law was a 'nicety they could not afford'. Holy sheet. I hate these torture-defending fuckers.

[babylonsister]

5. He sure did. And he's not alone. The hearings are on now. There's

an 'esteemed' lawyer who just testified and said basically the same thing.

Robert Turner, prof from UVA. Sigh.

[emulatorloo]

2. But officer, laws against drunk driving are a nicety I can't afford

This is what gets me about these Republicans who are defending torture.

At least some of them know in their hearts that it is wrong and illegal. Graham knows this, yet he defends Bush Cheney anyway.

Why? What is the motivation?

[gratuitous]

3. Niceties of a quaint old document

In my mind's eye, I see the Republicans regarding the law as some doddering old maiden aunt, well on in years, but loaded. They're nice to her face because they want to be in the will, but they're constantly bad-mouthing her behind her back, and always on the lookout for any slippage in the old girl, ready to sock her away in a home at the first opportunity. Now, if they could get her to sign this power of attorney . . .

[babylonsister]

6. Wow. I love that! You're right! nt

[spanone]

4. lindsey and the party of torture

[yellowcanine]

7. Pretty much how a common criminal views the law.

[tularetom]

8. Bookmark this statement - it will come back to bite them in the ass

[RandomThoughts]

9. For his comment to have meaning.

We need to know what his definition of Noble Law is.

I could interpret it, I could even guess what he means by it. Here are a few.

The tradition of ruling monarchy by the elite.
A law that is just by being of better virtue
A law that has traditions of honorable civil society.

My best thought on the reason to investigate criminal activities is to first reestablish rule of law, second to help those that do not understand that concept by showing things have consequences, and third, to protect others in the future from the same breeches of virtue and honor.

:shrug:
but without him defining with what he means by 'noble law', I guess I will just have to take a song definition. Since the band name matches one of the GOP leaders, it might just be what he meant, and it also fits the ways of destruction that many that defend evil strive for.


Trees by the group Rush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWHEcIbhDiw

There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas

The trouble with the maples
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?

There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream "Oppression!"
And the oaks just shake their heads

So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw

[foo_bar]

12. I dunno, those particular lyrics seem to be in the Ayn Rand school

I liked Subdivisions and all, but the political subtext here is the stoicism of the oaks ("just shake their heads"), the socialist leaning of the maples ("scream 'Oppression!'"), a swipe at collective bargaining ("So the maples formed a union"), and the equation of economic/social parity with unnecessary bloodshed ("By hatchet, Axe, And saw") or merely the puny trees keeping great oaks like Geddy Lee from enjoying full lighting.

[RandomThoughts]

14. yea I don't really agree with it either.

But it depends on your interpretation of what cutting down trees is, and I agree many peoples interpretations of cutting down a tree is negative.


Yes I agree it has the feel of the Oaks looking down on the Maples, because the Oaks think the Maples don't understand. It also says that the maples 'think they are right' Another comment on the Oaks thinking they are correct. So it fits in the model of the thought process of a group that thinks they know better, and think the little people don't get it. Which is what ignoring rule of law really is, one group thinking they know better then the cumulative knowledge of many in society. If it had another verse that spoke of the maples becoming the new tallest tree, it could even fit 'animal farm' model, but it stopped and spoke of an equality that goes against belief of any group that thinks they might be better.

It is social commentary, but it has the edge you mention, hence why I mentioned it being in the 'Rush' camp with the association of the groups name. And said it is a view of many that believe in things like no laws.

(Edit: I get your view, it is a perspective of Oaks just being who they are, the better tree. Which is how people rationalize ignoring social laws. The laws are a burden for people who don't 'get it' 'we smart people know what needs to be done.' those ideas, and those attitudes lets people break laws.

And they also think they are justified because the smaller trees only think they are right. But that is what makes it relevant. I am not advocating the song, I am pointing out the ideas of thought in the song.

The only way a leader can willfully break a law is to believe the people that support and created the law do not know what is needed as much as they do. They have to make some claim of knowing more then societal knowledge. It gets complicated, but to do that, they have to also think they are right like the maples think they are right. Because they are in disagreement with the maples, therefore both side thinks they are right, but since the song is Oak perspective, it says 'think' on the maples being right, and ends up claiming Oaks actually know what is right. Which allows ignoring laws.

I think I repeated myself in the comment, because it flips around a bit when trying to explain it. Things usually do when looking at a perspective of a perspective.)


There is another point.
It is only violent if you take the meaning of hatchet axe and saw as violence. I do not believe in violence, and actually see the cutting down of the tree in a more Biblical sense of the stump that gets a new tree planted in it. Or maybe the pruning of a tree(or forest) removing withered branches.

Also voting a new person in office, replacing a person in a job position, or looking for someone else to get news or thoughts from can all be examples of cutting down a tree in a worldly form.



Here is a more inspiring song that I think is the better thoughts. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8OpsPok6iQ

it even ties into Star Trek conversations.

[spanone]

10. how did lindsey graham become a lawyer, please tell me that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. So they didn't really BREAK the law -

they just decided to ignore it for a while.

THAT makes ALL the difference.

[babylonsister]

13. You should have heard him at the hearing.

Trying to justify torture, trying to convince the panel of the value of it and even seemingly trying to discredit an interrogator.

He's a piece of work without a soul.