NTSB: Colgan pilot, as student, was "slow". At time of crash, may have been flirting with copilot

[Stinky The Clown]

FAA regs require a conversationally sterile cockpit below 10,000 feet. The pilot was, on the cockpit voice recorder, heard to be 'flirting' with his female copilot

He was said, by a flight instructor, to be "slow" to learn the computer system and how to properly react to the stall warning system. His wrong reaction to it on the night of the crash is said to be the direct cause of the crash.

[BeyondGeography]

1. Continental is going to have to dig deep on this one

[babylonsister]

5. Were they responsible for hiring this guy or was Colgan? nt

[Stinky The Clown]

8. This is all Colgan's, but they flew as Continental

My sense is that Continental will, indeed, be digging deep.

Colgan, on the other hand, may well go belly up.

[babylonsister]

11. Hmmm.

CO code shares with Air France. If an Air France plane had an accident like this, would CO still be liable? I guess I'm wondering where liability starts.

I think if CO were in charge of hiring and training a Colgan pilot and he failed so many tests, he wouldn't have been hired. And full disclosure, my DH works for CO, so you can guess which side I'm rooting for.


Did you see this?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html

Captain's Training Faulted In Air Crash That Killed 50

snip//

Capt. Marvin Renslow had never been properly trained by the company to respond to a warning system designed to prevent the plane from going into a stall, according to people familiar with the investigation. As the speed slowed to a dangerous level, setting off the stall-prevention system, he did the opposite of the proper procedure, which led to the crash, these people said.

Additionally, his 24-year-old co-pilot, Rebecca Shaw, had complained before takeoff about being congested and said she probably should have called in sick, according to people who have listened to the cockpit voice recording.

The circumstances surrounding Continental Connection Flight 3407 have prompted investigators and regulators to examine Colgan's hiring and training practices. At the NTSB hearing, witnesses are expected to provide new allegations about training shortcomings, as well as the prevalence of chronic pilot fatigue and lapses in cockpit discipline. The NTSB also is expected to be critical of the Federal Aviation Administration's oversight of the airline. The FAA, which has said it is investigating the airline over pilot scheduling, declined to comment on issues likely to be raised in the hearing.

Pinnacle has said its pilot training programs "meet or exceed regulatory requirements for all major airlines" and crews "are prepared to handle emergency situations they might face." On Sunday, spokesman Joe Williams confirmed in an email that Capt. Renslow had five "unsatisfactory" training check rides in his career -- including two at Colgan -- but passed a subsequent series of training tests and was "fully qualified in the Q400" aircraft.

more...

[MindPilot]

12. Not properly trained on the warning system?!

Stall recognition and recovery is fundamental to flight training--it is one of the very first things a student pilot learns.

My instructor would get rather upset with me if I let the warning system detect a stall before I did.

[LostinVA]

30. He OVERRODE the system, too

[Stinky The Clown]

14. I saw that from a different source, but yeah, I saw and posted that yesterday.

I think I got the story from the Telegraph (UK) .... or maybe the Buffalo paper.

[Massacure]

2. Out of curiousity, what is so special about conversation and 10,000 feet?

Is talking seriously less dangerous at 40,000 feet than at 10,000?

[renegade000]

6. I'm not an expert, unlike some others on this board,

but I assume it's because below 10000ft you're either in the process of landing approach/take-off climb and thus your workload is much higher.

[MindPilot]

9. That is correct and at or below 10,000 there is a lot more traffic;

a lot more other airplanes also at or below 10,000 so the pilots really need to be focused on not flying into them.

[onenote]

24. the only conversation between pilot and copilot I've seen didn't sound like "flirting"

Is there more out there on which that claim is based?

[shadowknows69]

39. Less room for error obviously

I like my pilots to be paying attention to the flying.

[joshcryer]

49. Talking is if you see "icing you've never seen before" and then continue on chattering away.

God what an asshole, he killed 50 people because he wanted to just chat.

[seabeyond]

3. there is incompetents in all jobs, but a real bitch if one has a pilot

that is lousy at his job

[ecstatic]

4. uggh... Wonder if he was drunk too?

The female copilot was half his age too. Inappropriate sexual harassment aided in bringing that plane down. Sad.

[MindPilot]

7. as opposed to appropriate sexual harassment?

not trying to the grammar police; that just sounded funny. :D

[ecstatic]

13. Yes! Sometimes sexual harassment is appropriate!

Like if the guy is cute, rich and charming.


Just kidding! :hide:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

10. Here are some Facebook entries from a Colgan pilot:

"XXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXX is Delayed & Stressed with a Sever case of Delayed Stress! I'll be flying to Maine really late tonight & potentially getting shitfaced..."

"I will hunt down & kill the fucker who stole my headset out of my flight bag! Who was the homo that got that great idea?"

"Out for a jog in NJ, wearing my gang colors!"

"Flying to Foxwoods to score big on some Sluts! Slots..."

"Several Terminated Captains with some recent mishaps."

This dude is 23 and lives to drink and get laid, as MANY 23-year-olds do. But they're not flying airplanes. He's just one of many young Colgan employees proudly posting to Facebook. The pics are particularly enlightening.

I'm staying clear of Colgan.

[seabeyond]

15. wow. wow. surely you are joking. this is for real? hm

i dont know about the accident you are talking, but.... hm

[WorseBeforeBetter]

17. It's real ... I found this guy through an acquaintance.

His profile his public -- for all the world to see if they just join his network.

The stupidity boggles my mind.

[seabeyond]

18. The stupidity boggles my mind. isnt that just the truth.

i cant believe someone could diss just everyone, well except white male, lol. and not really everyone. i didnt see mention of muslims did i?

thanks

[konnichi wa]

22. Sorry, I don't believe it.

Reads like slanderous bullshit to me.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

25. Believe whatever the fuck you want.

I'm not posting names or taking the time to present all screen captures, but I will share one:



(What, do you work for Colgan?)

[konnichi wa]

28. Well, what can I say in response to such unimpeachable evidence?

No, I don't work for Colgan. Do you work for one of their competitors?

[LostinVA]

32. You know, having that avatar doesn't erase the posts you've made

:eyes:

[konnichi wa]

33. It isn't supposed to. What exactly do you find objectionable?

...

[WorseBeforeBetter]

40. No one is buying your act.

But keep it up... it's amusing.

[konnichi wa]

50. My "act"? I'm doing an act because I don't believe a fantastic 3rd hand claim

with no link or evidence?

good grief

[WorseBeforeBetter]

41. No, I do not work for one of Colgan's competitors. (n/t)

[LostinVA]

31. Quelle surprise

:eyes:

[nsd]

27. The Colgan pilot, Marvin Renslow, was 47.

I don't think it's the same guy.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

43. I wasn't suggesting that it was the same guy.

My post read "a" pilot, not "the" pilot. I'm going to try not to speak ill of the dead, but based on what I've learned, perhaps Mr. Renslow would have been better suited to a desk job...

[renegade000]

16. I don't know how they do Crew Resource Management training,

but now for some reason I am envisioning a cheesy training video:

<two improbably young and attractive actors/actresses sit in a cockpit set, taking turns to furtively eye each other up>

VOICEOVER (in 1940s news-reel fashion): In the course of your career at <X Airlines> you may notice yourself physically drawn to fellow pilot whilst working with them. Do not be alarmed, these feelings are natural. We here at <X Airlines> have a rigorous hiring and training process, selecting only the most elite pilots to fill our ranks. You will undoubtedly find yourself drawn in by the intensity of your copilot's rock-hard credentials and meaty service-record. While we here at <X Airlines> do not condone such workplace relationships, we recognize sometimes life happens, and we wish to help you act in an appropriate manner.

CAPTAIN: Throttle back to 75.

<both pilots' hands meet on the throttle>

VOICEOVER: You may be tempted to engage in pre-flight checks of a different nature. But remember, FAA regulations stipulate a sterile cockpit below 10,000ft, because as aviation experts have articulated, "you never know when shit happens."

<stick shaker activates>

CAPTAIN: I've got a stick shaker warning!

FIRST OFFICER: Yup, I feel it! Bring the nose down!

CAPTAIN: Going down...

FIRST OFFICER: Ease it...

VOICEOVER: Our two pilots maintained a sterile cockpit and have thus handled an unexpected situation with poise. Keep in mind that a safe and secure return to sea-level is a prerequisite for any decidedly un-sterile activities later. And remember, studies have shown that potential mates find nothing more appealing than steely-jawed professionalism.

<after completing post-landing checks>

FIRST OFFICER: It got a bit hairy up there, eh?

CAPTAIN: Yeah, and I couldn't help noticing your jaw...

FIRST OFFICER: <coyly> My jaw?

CAPTAIN: Yes, it was quite...steely.

FIRST OFFICER: Oh well, thank you. And I must say you certainly handled the control column with the utmost professionalism.

VOICEOVER: Get a room you two!

---------------------------------------------

Does this make me a terrible person?

ON EDIT: Fixed some minor typos.

[MindPilot]

19. No, it makes me think SNL should hire you as a writer

Your piece was funny and then it ended...quite unlike the usual Saturday Night Live skit.

:applause::rofl:

[Ezlivin]

20. That's why GOD should have been the copilot

He never puts up with that sort of behavior in the cockpit.

[konnichi wa]

23. Every time a pilot turns the controls over to 'God the co-pilot' it ends badly.

Seriously.

[Ezlivin]

26. God will make pilot as soon as he stops impregnating young virgins

Management doesn't look kindly upon such actions.

[riverdeep]

21. Thom Hartmann was talking about this yesterday.

One of the callers pointed out that a lot of pilots today don't receive their training from the military like pilots did before. The military paid for everything, now these people are in debt. Also, the co-pilot said she was sick and shouldn't have come in that day. He also has a really interesting discussion of when he was in pilot training and had a crazed instructor who made him deal with a stall. You can listen here, calls start about halfway in:

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/SANFRANCISCO-CA/KKGN-AM/Thom%20Hartmann%20051109%20H1.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=SANFRANCISCO-CA&NG_FORMAT=progressivetalk&SITE_ID=5257&STATION_ID=KKGN-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=Green_960_-_Thom_Hartmann&PCAST_CAT=Podcasts&PCAST_TITLE=Green_960_-_Thom_Hartmann

[LostinVA]

29. He also overrode the emergency "stickpusher" system, and hadn't even been trained on it

It may have saved them. He didn't even call it the right thing on the tape.

[konnichi wa]

34. How would someone 'override' something they had no training on?

And what was the 'thing' he didn't call with the right name?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[konnichi wa]

37. "learn some fucking manners"??? And to think, some said irony was dead.

:eyes:

[Maiden England]

46. think that refers to the stick pusher

automatic movement of stick forward, puts the aircraft nose down - which increases forward airspeed over the wings and helps increase lift to avoid a stall scenario.

The pilot in response to feeling the stick move forward automatically pulled back on the stick, counteracting the movement and making the nose pitch up - causing the aircraft to 'stall' - basically causes loss of lift on the wings and turns the airplane into a falling rock.
You basically have to train someone into not doing that, because it seems counterintuitive to push stick forward. Apparently the pilot had not had that kind of training.

[LostinVA]

47. They are quite aware of what I was talking about

But, thank you very much for your explanation. It seemed counter-intuitive when I was reading about it earlier.

[Born_A_Truman]

35. I read the transcript of the CVR ... what flirting??

[konnichi wa]

38. The 'sterile cockpit' rule was a hysterical over-reaction to a rare problem.

It's impossible to make a rule that reasonably addresses whether every conceivable conversation is applicable to flight operations and often not even necessary. Every flight is different. There have been more than a few cases where a crew member failed to communicate what turned out to be critical information for fear of violating this idiotic rule and resulted in serious problems including fatalities from onboard fires.

[JustJeking]

44. I don't think they were flirting -

the pilot was talkative, sure, but flirting? No.

[joshcryer]

48. He was teasing and joking around in the end, definitely being cute.

And yeah, talked a heck of a lot.

[Born_A_Truman]

42. Cockpit Voice Recorder Transcript Link (pdf)

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/buffalo_cockpit_transcript.pdf

[Deja Q]

45. I wonder if any of the flirting included the phrase "my cockpit"...