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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 12:46 PM
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Bombing Afghans in Defense of Afghanistan?
AFTER nearly a week of denials and counter accusations, an anonymous U.S. military official admitted today that their airstrikes Monday in Afghanistan killed at least 50 civilians. Despite that conclusion, local authorities still insist that as many as 140 innocent civilians were savagely bombed in their own homes as they took refuge from an unraveling battle between Taliban and Afghan/coalition forces.

Initially, the U.S. military gave their standard (infuriating) denial that civilians were killed, as they have in all of the many instances where civilians have been killed by the collateral effects of U.S. dominated raids and bombings (several deliberately targeted, only to find later that 'faulty intelligence' led them to kill the wrong people). Later, when local police and other Afghan officials protested loudly and produced bodies of the women and children who had been caught in the way of the deliberate bombing, Pentagon officials immediately strained to find some way to blame the Taliban - by the weekend settling on claiming that it was actually the Taliban who had killed the civilians in an effort to generate protests from the Afghan population.

The anatomy of this latest in a string of collateral and bad intelligence-driven killings of Afghan civilians provides a perfect view of the state of the military mission there and its predictable effects on the population, and on the level of acceptance of our presence by Afghans. The airstrikes which destroyed a community of homes was preceded by a typically fierce firefight between Afghan/coalition forces and Taliban combatants who had gotten the better of the skirmish, managed to destroy some vehicles, and had killed a number of soldiers, including one American. It's at that point that reports say that U.S. airstrikes were called in to help in the pursuit of the fighters.

According to Patrick Cockburn, reporting from Herat for The Independent, the airstrikes were neither pinpoint nor brief:

A claim by American officials, which was repeated by the US Defence Secretary Robert Gates yesterday in Kabul, that the Taliban might have killed people with grenades because they did not pay an opium tax is not supported by any eyewitnesses and is disproved by pictures of deep bomb craters, one of which is filled with water. Mr Gates expressed regret for the incident but did not go so far as to accept blame.

The US admits that it did conduct an air strike at the time and place, but it is becoming clear, going by the account of survivors, that the air raid was not a brief attack by several aircraft acting on mistaken intelligence, but a sustained bombardment in which three villages were pounded to pieces. Farouq Faizy, an Afghan radio reporter who was one of the first to reach the district of Bala Baluk, says villagers told him that bombs suddenly, "began to fall at 8pm on Monday and went on until 10pm though some believe there were still bombs falling later". A prolonged bombing attack would explain why there are so many dead, but only 14 wounded received at Farah City hospital.


After reports from the Red Cross and others confirmed that civilians had been slaughtered in the three villages - Gerani, Gangabad and Koujaha - which sustained the brunt of the hours of bombardments, Mr. Gates (and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as well, in a statement with Karzai in D.C.) did indeed express 'regret' over the deaths. However, his comments implicating the Taliban suggest a new tactic from the Pentagon which would deflect from criticism and stifle the growing movement among Afganis who are insisting that the U.S. dominated forces stand down from these reckless and deadly raids and airstrikes.

"We regret any, even one, Afghan ... innocent civilian casualty. And we will make whatever amends are necessary," Gates said in Afghanistan Thursday. "We all know that the Taliban use civilian casualties and sometimes create them to create problems for ... the United States and our coalition partners. We will have to wait and see what happened in this particular case."

His subordinates at the Pentagon didn't wait, however, to float to the press what they admitted were "loosely sourced" rumors which suggested the combatants had taken the time during the hours of bombings to stage the killings of villagers in the Taliban stronghold to make it appear as a result of the U.S. airstrikes.

Despite admitting that, "This is not looking good," (referencing the tension between the U.S. and Karzai's Afghan regime) a 'senior military official
told CNN that, the U.S. military believed the insurgents were holding people in the homes as a means of causing civilian casualties.

Tech Sergeant Chuck Marsh repeated the accusation to VOA: "The investigation suggests that villagers had taken refuge in a number of houses in each village," he said. "Reports also indicate that Taliban fighters deliberately forced villagers into houses from which they then attacked ANSF and Coalition forces."

However, other reports show that civilians took refuge in the homes after news of the 12 hour battle between Taliban and government forces. "We know that those killed included an Afghan Red Crescent volunteer and 13 members of his family who had been sheltering from fighting in a house that was bombed in an air strike," the ICRC's head of delegation in Kabul, Reto Stocker said.

CNN also reported that 'U.S. officials' told them there is 'some information' that some civilians were beheaded by insurgents in the area during the several hours of heavy fighting." But, investigations into the killings have not supported any of the accusations that the Taliban combatants targeted members in their own villages as they fled. The investigations have, however, found many Afghans who have reported the deaths of family members and neighbors as a result of the sustained bombing numbering over 140 in total. Riots broke out Thursday after the bodies of more than a dozen of the civilians killed were brought by protesters to Farah City, with angry Afghans throwing stones at police__ who, in return, opened fire on the crowd, wounding several.

from Patrick Cockburn:

The riot started when people from three villages struck by US bombers in the early hours of Tuesday, brought 15 newly-discovered bodies in a truck to the house of the provincial governor. As the crowd pressed forward in Farah, police opened fire, wounding four protesters. Traders in the rest of Farah city, the capital of the province of the same name where the bombing took place, closed their shops, vowing they would not reopen them until there is an investigation.

A local official Abdul Basir Khan said yesterday that he had collected the names of 147 people who had died, making it the worst such incident since the US intervened in Afghanistan started in 2001. A phone call from the governor of Farah province, Rohul Amin, in which he said that 130 people had died, was played over the loudspeaker in the Afghan parliament in Kabul, sparking demands for more control over US operations. (Reuters also reported that Farah Province deputy governor Yunus Rasooli said residents of two villages hit this week by U.S. warplanes had produced lists with the names of 147 people killed in the attacks.)


The protests were elevated by the reaction of the Afghan government to the deadly airstrikes. INN reportedthat Afghanistan Speaker of the Lower House of Parliament, Mohammad Younus Qanoni warned the Afghan government to submit the ’legalisation plan’ of foreign military presence within a week to the parliament. Some MPs were said to suggest 'sealing off' the parliament as a protest.

Afghan President Karzai on Friday finally put some substance behind his repeated demands the U.S. end the bungling raids and check the collateral killings of his countryfolk. "We believe strongly that air strikes are not an effective way in fighting terrorism. That's not good for the US, that's not good for Afghanistan, that's not good for the conducting of the war," Mr. Karzai told CNN in an interview.

"We demand the proper conduction of operations. We demand an end to these operations," Karzai said. "We cannot justify in any manner, for whatever number of Taliban or for whatever number of significantly important terrorists, the accidental or otherwise loss of civilians," he said.

Karzai, upbraiding the entirety of tactics that the escalated NATO forces have been employing in their presumed 'defense' of Kabul, complained that, "the air strikes, especially, and sudden bursts into homes at night are not in any way good for this war."

Silly puppet . . . the U.S. military doesn't give a damn about what you want.

"If there's one lesson I draw from the past, it is the importance of our staying engaged," Defense Secretary Robert Gates told reporters Friday at Forward Operating Base Airborne in northern Afghanistan. "And if there's a lesson for Americans and the international community, it's that we don't dare turn our backs on Afghanistan. This will work if we stay engaged."

That was basically the attitude back at the Pentagon today as U.S. military spokeswoman Capt. Elizabeth Mathias disputed the 140-plus that the Afghans are insisting were killed in the airstrikes. She told reporters that, "The investigators and the folks on the ground think that those numbers are extremely over-exaggerated." "We are definitely nowhere near those estimates."

The Pentagon responded with their own over-exaggeration, trotting out an 'anonymous' military official to insist the airstrikes were done in broad daylight and were actually for the Afghan's own good. "This was not a night raid, this was not a scheduled operation, we came to their assistance," the official said on condition of anonymity. "We were supporting our Afghan partners," anonymous told AFP.

If this is the best our forces have to offer in 'defense' of the Afghan regime, it's understandable why the protected head is looking to pull the plug on the military forces' most destructive tactics. Mr. Karzai has to realize, though, that the defense of his precarious regime is not the primary mission of the U.S. dominated NATO force. America is engaged in a war on an ideology in the Middle East which the leadership at the Pentagon believes can and should be 'won' in Afghanistan.

Mr. Gates last May, cast the occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan as the same kind of 'ideological' battle that Bush had promoted in defense of his unbridled military aggression across sovereign borders:

"Afghanistan and Iraq are the most important battlefields in the fight today, Gates said, and his priority has been “getting us to a point where our strategic objectives are within reach in those two countries . . . America’s best opportunity to discredit and deflate the extremist ideology is in Afghanistan and Iraq, Gates said.

“Just as the hollowness of communism was laid bare by the collapse of the Soviet Union, so too would success in those countries strike a decisive blow against the ideological underpinnings of extremist movements,” Gates argued.

The best evidence, so far, has not pointed to any 'collapse' of the ideology of resistance to U.S. aggression and expansionism across sovereign borders. If anything, the self-perpetuating cycle of attacks and reprisals has provided text and substance for the militarized resistance and their recruiting of Afghans driven to violent expressions of self-determination and liberty. Is anyone at the White House paying attention?
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent. Thank you. K&R!! n/t


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david13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Has anyone at the White House heard of a thing called
Vietnam? Have any others?
No one ever learns the lessons of history. They just keep making the same mistakes over and over.
dc
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. The reasons for killing people has been reduced to politics and PR.
We're there to defend the United States. From what? Does anyone with more than 2 brain cells expect the raggedy assed taliban to invade Philadelphia?

Just like in Vietnam, the geniuses are hoping that their "new" (Predators rather than B-52's) strategy will keep the insurgents at bay and that a miracle will occur.

They are also cooperating with some of the most hated and despicable, and certainly unreliable, warlords in hope that they will stave off the inevitable with a "not as bad" crew of murderers.

They are replaying the Domino Theory as a means of keeping a semblance of public support through fear.

It is a flop. They know it's a flop and they are indulging in a grand play of CYA so they don't have to admit it's a flop.

Meanwhile, killing people to save face continues.


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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. obama`s Vietnam.....
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. .


U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates (C) and U.S. Army General David McKiernan, Commander of U.S. Forces in Afghanistan, (R) listen to Afghan governors and local officials during their visit to Forward Operating Base Airborne in the mountains of Afghanistan's Wardak Province. The United States and other allies "don't dare" neglect Afghanistan, US Defence Secretary Robert Gates said.
(AFP/POOL/Jason Reed)
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Obama better get the fugg out of Afghanistan
This is madness
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. "defense against internal aggression" just like every other war we've fought.
Korea
Vietnam
Iraq
Guatamala
El Salvador
Mexico
Greece

You name a country that we have invaded in the last 120 years, and 9 of 10 times you will see "defense against internal aggression" cited as a reason.

Of course what that actually means is slaughter of the domestic population to make the country safe for American based corporations.

It's like a broken record with these guys...
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm getting more and more pessimistic about Afghanistan
If Karzai wins the election, and it looks like he will, I don't see much hope for a decent Afghan govt. in the near future. But regardless of that we should stop bombing villages!
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great post as usual Bigtree. K&R. nt
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
10. Gotta save those villages....
Edited on Sat May-09-09 06:25 PM by Joe Chi Minh
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AverageJoe5 Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. If (God forbid!) there is another attack on this c country in future....
I hate to say this, but the indiscriminate, unjustified bombing and killing of innocent Afghan civilians may be sowing the seeds for another 9/11-type of attack against us. If (God forbid!) that should happen, I don't want to hear any of our leaders saying they attack us "because they hate our freedom!" (as Pres. Bush used to say). If they attack us again in future, it will most probably be because we are gratuitously bombing and killing innocent Afghan civilians.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-09-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. I really believed that Obama would rethink the idea of escalating in Afghanistan after the election.
Gates' idea that we can "strike a decisive blow against the ideological underpinnings of extremist movements" by occupying their country and killing their people seems absurd to me.

Has anyone polled the Afghanis to see what they think of the U.S. occupation -- as they did with Iraq and found that the vast majority of Iraqis wanted us out of their country?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. from Feb., TFC
Support for US operations in Afghanistan declining: Poll

Washington, Feb 10 : The support for US operations in Afghanistan is declining, with air strikes being a chief concern, according to a poll conducted by ABC News.

A quarter of the Afghans polled said that attacks on American or allied forces are justifiable, double the proportion saying so in late 2006. snip

At the same time, ratings of US forces have declined precipitously; 32 percent said US and coalition forces are performing well, down from 68 percent in 2005. And fewer than half of the respondents, 42 percent, have confidence in coalition forces to provide security in their areas.

Most troubling to the Afghans are US airstrikes and civilian casualties. One in five said coalition forces have killed civilians in their area in the past year, and one in six reported nearby bombing or shelling at the hands of US forces.

About eight in 10 called coalition air strikes unacceptable, viewing the risk to innocent civilians as greater than the value of these raids in fighting the Taliban and other anti-government insurgents.

The poll, conducted by the Afghan Center for Socio-Economic and Opinion Research in Kabul for ABC News, the BBC and ARD German television, found that 47 percent hold a favorable view of the United States, down from 83 percent in 2005.

http://www.andhranews.net/Intl/2009/February/10/Support-operations-Afghanistan-89034.asp
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Thank you bigtree -- I think that the key sentence is
"About eight in 10 called coalition air strikes unacceptable, viewing the risk to innocent civilians as greater than the value of these raids in fighting the Taliban and other anti-government insurgents."

That means we have no right to be there, especially for such a vague purpose as tracking down terrorists who might be harbored in Afghanistan -- I mean terrorists can be and are harbored all over the world, including in our country. If 8 in 10 Afghanis don't want us there, we couldn't possibly be encouraging pro-American feelings through carrying out air strikes.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. The real purpose is to establish an oil pipeline which doesn't have to pass
Edited on Sun May-10-09 09:01 AM by Joe Chi Minh
through Russia from wherever. Can't remember the details. Perhpas somebody else can throw light on it.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
14. People need to realize that in Modern war, there are no civilians.
That's why it is so fucking terrible. War is not fun and should only be waged defensively.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. The laws of war make a distinction
between killing combatants and killing noncombatants. The official policies of our armed forces make the same distinction. And there is a huge difference ethically between killing unjust aggressors and killing innocent bystanders. But you are basically right. So long as civilians are not directly attaacked, killing them is largely regarded as an inevitable part of modern combat and it is taken way too lightly.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Gates takes the killing seriously:
Oh well, another innocent Afghan dead. How many? Oh well, I guess that's just war. There were high value target somewhere around that village, wasn't there? It turned out he wasn't there? Oh well, mistakes happen. We'll issue an official "Regrets." Add something about every Afghan life being sacred. No wait, that's a bit much. How about, "we will do whatever is necessary to make amends." That works. Sounds like we can fix what we broke.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
17. Spreading "Democracy," Inc
Imagine a fully grown man beating the shit out of a fourteen yr old girl.

Okay, now imagine all the jerk-off flag wavers who rah!rah! whenever America commits aggression (sold to them via M$M as being retaliatory, of course, and being good, obedient Americans, they naturally buy it)

See, what they're actually supporting and endorsing and helping to pay for w/their tax dollars is sorta like them watching that grown man beating the shit outta that girl, only the reality is much, much worse.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. exactly.
out of sight out of mind, to many americans. they justify it by lumping all people together in some way as less than, or brown people. lots of racism involved, just like vietnam. it tooks pictures and people on the ground reporting about it to wake a few people up here.
bombing civilians, little babies are blown to bits. no one wants to know about it, it needs to be seen.
even dems i speak with are doing cognitive dissonance. as tho those babies and children are somehow different then their own babies and children.
well, they arent. a baby in its mothers arms making cooing sounds and hugging her tight is blown to bits by an airstrike along with the mother. thats murder, and we are all responsible for it as long as we dont speak out.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes. In a representative democracy, actions of govt are carried out in ALL of our names, w/our $
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. In the usual, tried, tested, and failed way.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. AKA Democracy ....or else!
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. It's the Mericun way......


Would someone please remind me ---- why are we still there? Does the DoD want to stay in Afghanistan longer than the Russkies? Is Obama looking for a shithole to pour money down?
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-10-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. all the fucking regret wrapped in bullshit is not going to bring one dead person back..
and if you think for one damn minute i would except anyone's fucking regret of one dead member of my family, at the hands of anyone ..I will hand wrap a live alligator and give you the swamp land for it!

I wonder if this is what those commercials mean..reach out and touch someone..or can you hear me now?????

What a disgrace my country has become..a disgrace and a bunch of lawless hoods and thugs...new names but the same thuggery!
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