Why is Mc Cain a hero...

[butterfly77]

what did he do that gave him that title?

[driver8]

1. Former Navy Pilot who spent 6 years as a POW...

I think that's pretty heroic.

However, I am not a fan of his...

[Redstone]

7. What he endured was FUCKING heroic, indeed. Too bad he blew it by rolling over

as soon as he lost the primary to bushyboy. WHAT a disappointment.

Redstone

[Kagemusha]

11. Well said. Sad to see him fritter it all away

But that sure as hell is what he's doing

[Redstone]

19. Yes it is, but I can tell you from experience that when the factor of age is applied,

the glories of our youth, when we were young and strong and thought ourselves immortal, well, we do weaken in comparison to them.

Just something for everyone to think about. Because I've been there.

Redstone

[Javaman]

106. We were young once...nt

[driver8]

71. I agree -- Shrub screwed him over and he took it and went back for more.

I could not believe that he actually gave junior a hug!

[htuttle]

2. He was taken as a prisoner once?

:shrug:

[Tiggeroshii]

78. During Vietnam.

As I understand it, he flew fighter jets, got shot down and was captured by the North Vietnamese. Probably not the most happy of ordeals.

[maxsolomon]

3. vietnam POW

you'd think that would have soured him on american imperialist aggression.

but that oval office is so very shiny & if he can just get elected all his problems would go away.

[Ilsa]

4. It's more than his six years as a POW. He was offered an early

trip home because his father was a US Admiral. He turned that offer down because it didn't include all of the POW's, even though he desperately needed better medical care.

Yeah, he is a bona fide war hero in my book, but I despise him now for sucking up to bush*.

[Redstone]

9. Thanks for mentioning that part. He did well, indeed. Until he lost the primary.

Redstone

[tkmorris]

25. OK, that is a bit heroic

If it's actually true. Not that I doubt you per se, but so much of their noise turns out to be false.

I want to add that simply being a POW does not make anyone a hero. A hero to me is someone who takes great personal risk to benefit others. While it could be argued that anyone who served in Vietnam fits that description (I wouldn't agree), having been a POW there does not meet the standard. Former POW's deserve our sympathy and respect for surviving it but it isn't heroic.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

40. It's actually true, and it was heroic even by your standards.

The POW experience in Vietnam was harsher than the POW experience in WWII Germany, for instance. Brutal torture and isolation, and the POWs still devised drumbeat codes they could pound out in secret to communicate. It took more than the usual share of fortitude to keep them all together.

As for your requirement that a hero be someone who takes great personal risk to benefit others, McCain was offered a chance for release because his father was a Navy bigwig, and declined because the offer was only for him and not his comrades as well. So he stayed for a few extra years of isolation and beatings rather than break faith with his fellow prisoners.

[Orsino]

56. Returning to the OP, though, "is" is not the right verb.

He acted heroically on at least one occasion, and courageously for years.

He's obviously been corrupted since those times, and has sold out far more service members and civilians than he ever kept faith with.

[gilpo]

103. Right. "Was" is a better word

[Ilsa]

58. It is true. This isn't "their" noise. This has been known for decades.

So he definitely meets the criteria. He was hurt very badly when he was shot down, and he needed the best medical attention the world could offer. He suffered extensively while recovering, and he turnd down the opportunity to be released because the others couldn't come home with him, and he didn't want to become a propaganda tool of the North Vietnamese.

There really are some good people out there.

On edit:
This is part of the write-up from wikipedia:

On October 26, 1967, McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile, landing in Truc Bach Lake. He broke both arms and a leg after ejecting from his plane. After he regained consciousness, a mob gathered around him, spat on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing. He was then tortured by Vietnamese soldiers, who bayonetted him in his left foot and groin. His shoulder was crushed by a rifle butt. He was then transported to the Hoa Lo Prison, also known as the Hanoi Hilton.<10>

Once McCain arrived at the Hanoi Hilton, he was placed in a cell and interrogated daily. When McCain refused to provide any information to his captors, he was beaten until he lost consciousness.<11>

When the North Vietnamese discovered his father was the Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command, (CINCPAC), commander of all U.S. forces in Vietnam, he was offered a chance to return home. McCain turned down the offer of repatriation.<12>


Interview with McCain on April 24, 1974, after his return home.McCain signed an anti-American propaganda message which was written in Vietnamese, but only as a result of rigorous and brutal torture methods, which to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head. According to McCain, signing the propaganda message is something he most regrets during his time as a POW. After McCain signed the statement, the Vietnamese decided they could not use it. They tried to force him to sign a second statement, and this time he refused. He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.<13>

McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five-and-a-half years, mostly in the infamous Hanoi Hilton, and was finally released from captivity in 1973, having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his earlier refusal to accept an out of turn repatriation offer. McCain was reinstated to flight status and became Commanding Officer of the VA-174 Hellrazors, the East Coast A-7 Corsair II Navy training squadron.<14>

In 1976 he became the Navy's liaison to the Senate.<15> He retired from the Navy in 1981 as a captain.<16> During his military career, he received a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, the Legion of Merit, the Purple Heart, and a Distinguished Flying Cross.<17>

McCain is one of five Vietnam veterans currently serving in the U.S. Senate; the others are Thomas Carper (D-DE), Chuck Hagel (R-NE), John Kerry (D-MA), and Jim Webb (D-VA).<18>

A television-based film entitled Faith Of My Fathers, based on McCain's memoir of his experiences as a POW, aired on Memorial Day, 2005 on A&E.<19>

[Wilber_Stool]

60. If I'm not mistaken,

he received that chance to be released because he signed a war crimes confession. He refused to leave because he felt guilty. After the war ended, the Pentagon changed the rules about what a prisoner could admit to under torture. He got knocked around real good at the Hanoi Hilton.

[mduffy31]

130. His father was not just any Admiral

he was THE Admiral that was sending the planes that were bombing the NVA.

[Pawel K]

5. Frankly he is a hero

What he went through in Vietnam must have been horrible, I can not imagine pissing away 6 years of my life in a dirty POW camp not knowing when you would get out.

But that doesn't change the fact that he is also an idiot. I really don't know what happened to him. He used to seem a lot less crazy. It's almost as if Bush has him by the balls and they are forcing him to say what he is saying. Or maybe not, but I just can't comprehend how a guy that seemed like he was fairly normal just a few years back could become such a loon.

[butterfly77]

12. What did he do that was heroic?

[Pawel K]

14. Read the posts here again

As a poster above pointed out he could have left but decided not to. I have no reason to not believe the person who said this but even if it weren't true anyone that fought in Vietnam and survived a POW camp is a hero in my book, the fact they might not have done that voluntary doesn't change what they had to go through in an unjust war.

[butterfly77]

17. Did he do any fighting?

[Pawel K]

20. Of course he did

what the hell is your problem?

[butterfly77]

22. All I did was ask the question..

I don't have any problem maybe you do...

[Redstone]

24. Uh, yes, he did. Got shot down, and landed in a pond with a whole bunch of people

pointing weapons at him, while he was dealing with a broken leg or two concurrently.

Argue with his current politics as you wish, but do NOT question his courage in Viet Nam, unless you want to have a fight with me.

OK?

Redstone

[butterfly77]

29. I'm am not arguing...

I am asking questions that you don't seem to like. I wanted to know what gave him his status as a hero...

[Redstone]

33. The way he acted during his captivity gave his that status, for me. I even registered

Republican for one day to vote for him in the 2000 primaries.

I amn DAMN disappointed in how he rolled over since then, but that does NOT diminish how courageously he acted when under extreme duress.

Redstone

[butterfly77]

35. Did I say anything about ...

him being courageous, don't get angry at me because I asked the question.

[driver8]

72. I think he's angry (or annoyed) because you asked the original question and

you were given several answers as to why McCain was considered a hero.

Then, you come back and ask the same question again!

Did you even bother to read the posts in response to your question??

It is pretty obvious why McCain is seen as a hero.

[butterfly77]

92. I guess it goes back to what the meaning of is Is...

or was is...

[Geoff R. Casavant]

42. Hear, hear!

I too registered as a Republican in 2000 so I could vote for him (in Texas!).

[butterfly77]

45. I also voted for him in the primaries in 2000...

to prevent bushy from winning...

[JuniperLea]

48. There's no questioning his heroism, imho

I think it took its toll. As much as I uphold him for his heroism, I fear for him. His pal W is using him for sure. I liked him better as an old school Republican. He is too good for these neo-cons.

[11 Bravo]

31. Ever made a night trap on a carrier deck?

He flew combat missions over North VietNam in an A-4 Skyhawk. Some might consider that "fighting". His politic choices have since revealed him to be a dick, but his heroism is unquestioned.

[butterfly77]

36. Not by some on this board...

from some of the things posted...

[Redstone]

39. I did ONE during the DAY as a passenger in an F-4 once, and that was MORE

than enough for me.

Pucker factor times twenty, right there.

Redstone

[Toots]

88. He cooperated with the North Vietnamese and signed a confession of war crimes

When he ran against Bush* in 2004 the Swift Boat guys said he was the only POW that actually gained weight.

[Bronyraurus]

128. McCain ran against Bush in 2004?

I must have missed that. Was it exciting?

[11 Bravo]

23. He kept the faith and refused early release.

[SoCalDem]

6. He did what ANY living organism would have done.. Tried his best to not die.

I guess that's heroic.

When i think of heroic, I think of an ordianry person doing something they are not trained/paid to do, and saving lives in the process.

A neighbor who rushed into a burning home to save someone...or like the guy who saved a stranger in the subway.

That's heroic.

[ljm2002]

10. On the contrary...

...as posted above, he had the chance to get out and refused because the other POWs had to stay. So he was really a bona fide hero on that score.

Note, the operative word is "was". Whatever well of strength he had for his heroism in Vietnam, it has deserted him now.

[SoCalDem]

15. There is that one redeeming fact, but remember how disappointed his Dad would have been in him

if he had sold out hie fellow prisoners.. Military honor and dad's approval had a lot to do with that decision, I think..

and

over time, these things get amplified.. Remember how Poppy's cowardly bail out has morphed into a heroic maneuver.

[Pawel K]

18. You're being an ass

I try not to attack people around here as everyone is here for a good reason but this is absolute bullshit. The man is a hero based on his service, why are you trying to degrade that? It is hypocritical for people around here to pull this type of swiftboating bullshit. Yes, the guy is now a moron, but in his earlier days he was a good guy.

[SoCalDem]

26. Um... I voted for McCain in our primary.. I just don't think he's a "hero"

I lost respect for him when he started delivering slobbery wet ones on *². especially after he allowed his family to be attacked during the primary.

Call me an ass if you like, but I resent the word "hero" being tossed around when people do what's necessary to survive.

Mccain, himself even said it..

He was shot down, he did not singlehandledly rescue a battalion with a bayonet between his teeth..

he survived. (as did many of his fellow prisoners)

[Bronyraurus]

129. Maybe he'd be able to use his arms

if he'd taken that deal and not gotten tortured for three extra years.

How would you have held up, eh?

[ljm2002]

32. "these things get amplified"

Yes, true that. Ultimately politicians need to milk whatever they can, and if a story can be morphed into "heroism" to help them get elected then that is what will happen.

Still, there's general agreement about what happened to McCain, and regardless of his personal motives, he did do a heroic thing and suffered for years longer than he would have otherwise. For that, my hat is off to him.

Unfortunately, he has morphed into something really weird with no apparent grounding in integrity or independent thought. Must be some spores they dropped along with the confetti at the 2000 Republican convention...

[lectrobyte]

85. Well, I've never been held POW with a broken leg and had several

teeth knocked out with a rifle butt when I was a twenty-something, but I suspect a lot of folks would have taken the deal and gone home. I sure don't feel like I have the moral high ground to question his motives for what he did back then, and I'm kind of curious why you think you do.

[karynnj]

89. It is still heroic

That he had a concept of a code of honor and because he knew his family would expect him to live up to those values doesn't diminish his action in not taking the opportunity to get home early, it explains it.

Anyone who does something selfless or heroic likely does it because of values they believe in. Most times the decision to be a hero is almost instantaneous - therefore it is an action taken without thought of the consequences or an action that is guided by principles so deeply ingrained that the decision is quick.

It is likely that McCain did not anticipate that it would be 5 years, but he knew he would be mistreated, tortured and not get medical help for severe injuries. The idea that he can't raise his arms is stunning. His decision to do this was not an instantaneous burst of courage and heroism, but a decision he made with time to change it.

Part of the question is that this type of heroism differs in that it is a heroism of moral courage rather than heroism facing fire and death.

[SoCalDem]

90. Yes..courage.. I agree with that:)

[JuniperLea]

44. I feel badly that he's put himself in this position

He is saddly lacking a lot of his former self, methinks. I'm betting he means well, that his heart is in the right place.

It's just too damn sad.

[Redstone]

30. Uh, excuse me, but I actually AM "a neighbor who rushed into a burning home," and I still

respect how he acted during his captivity.

Redstone

[SoCalDem]

34. Red, I never said i did not respect what he did. I just don't

see it as "heroic". I admire his pluck and resolve to survive. I think he was a good soldier. I just don;t see him as more heroic than ANY other soldier who surived a war ..

[Redstone]

38. OK, point well-taken. No anger here; I just wanted to point out that he could

have punked out and saved himself some personal grief, but didn't. That DOES take courage.

And what's "heroic" in the end? To me, the most heroic sons of bitches in Viet Nam were the COs who became medics because of their belief in nonviolence, but joined the military anyway because of their patriotism. They carried no weapons with which to defend themselves, but went outthere under fire in order to save others, every single goddamn day. True heroes, those few.

THAT is heroism, distilled to its essence. "He who will give his own life for his fellow man," and all that.

I have always defined the word "hero" as someone who will risk or has risked his or her life to save someone else's, period. NOT, for example, someone who is good at playing a sport.

McCain's resistance saved some lives, I'm sure of that.

But again, no anger from me.

Redstone

[electron_blue]

100. I'd say even a fireman rushing into burnign home to save someone is heroic

Being trained just increases chances a person will be able to perform heroic deeds. Doesn't take the heroic part out of the deed.

[ComerPerro]

8. according to the Bush campaign in 2000, absolutely nothing

[thereismore]

13. Before he was taken prisoner, he was throwing bombs on people's heads. nt

[tblue]

21. I was just gonna say that. Could you blame the VC for making him a POW?

But he was once brave and strong and noteworthy but he's sold his soul and now he's a has-been. Didn't have to be. But he made that choice. He hitched his wagon to *, and the rest is history, as are his chances at winning the GOP nod.

[spoony]

79. I can blame them, yes.

They didn't exactly treat people well as prisoners, did they now? So yes, I can blame them. Anyone who cares about the treatment of prisoners should.

[tblue]

96. There's no crime in holding in custody the people who are bombing you. Torture, on the other hand,

is out of the question, or should be. You think they should just let him go fly around dropping bombs. Wow.

[spoony]

97. You think the N.Vietnamese didn't torture people?

Wow indeed.

[devilgrrl]

98. You think the US didn't torture the Vietnamese?????

Can you say My Lai Massacre????





Here, I'll say it for you.... "but but but, we were at war.... but but but"

[spoony]

101. How does that make what happened to McCain okay?

I'm seeing some real bullshit relativism on DU today:

It's okay for Iran to take British prisoners because the US mistreated prisoners

You can't blame the Vietnamese for torturing people because the US did bad things

etc etc.

It's rubbish. If you believe bad things shouldn't be done, you won't only say so when Americans do it, for crying out loud.

[devilgrrl]

102. I keep forgetting that everyone is bad but we're good...

thanks for reminding me of that.

Yep, all that death and destruction in Vietnam & Iraq is so worth it - it's for a noble cause! Sure it is. Sure.

[spoony]

104. Whose posts are you reading?

Perhaps you meant to reply to someone in another open window, because nothing you said is in any way relevent to me. I'd figure that you're just trying to put words in my mouth and build up some nice flammable strawmen, but usually when people do that they at least make some bleeding sense.

This thread is about McCain, this subthread is about his treatment as a POW. That treatment has nothing to do with events that hadn't happened yet, nor is it excused by things that had. It is not, among other things, about Iraq, water-boarding, salsa, Windows Vista, or anything else. Now if you have some sort of actual argument, by all means post it. But you can keep your hyperbolic, off-topic rambling to yourself or whoever else's posts you keep trying to reply to.

[devilgrrl]

105. My argument is that John McCain is not a hero.

Because he isn't.

[spoony]

107. Yes and you've made it so convincingly

what with all the random detours, non-sequiters, time-machine relativism, etc. And now one-liners (well he was a bad pilot, and not a hero!). Yeah there's no arguing with that sort of devastating arsenal.

[devilgrrl]

111. Okay, let's hear what is so heroic about him?

Getting shot down? Enduring torture as a prisoner? Aligning with the philosophy that sent him over there in the first place? Making fun of a teenaged daughter of a US President? Selling is soul to Mega-Churches?

Come on, let's hear all about John McCain's greatness.

[spoony]

115. Ah yes, more of your time machine

What does anything after he got home have anything to do with what he did, in fact, endure? Does that erase what he went through? Was he planning these things whilst being tortured there? Coming up with Iraq War plans on the dirt floors?

He was heroic, and there's nothing after the fact that you can do to take that away. It's like a scar, it doesn't vanish when you get old and complacent. But I'd love to hear what you think makes a hero. For some reason I'm expecting the words Rosie O'Donnell to appear in reply.

[devilgrrl]

116. Hmm, funny I always though heroes saved lives...

like firemen, police officers, doctors & nurses.

Getting shot down and enduring prison is equivalent to saving human lives? Okay.

BTW. The right has a lot of fun questioning the service records of Democrats - so, I'm going to have fun pissing all over McCain's record. Let's see how he likes it. Why he didn't seem to mind what Karl Rove did to him in South Carolina - why would he care what I think of him? I think he's a pussy.

[spoony]

117. Grand, become what you hate.

Why don't you bash some gay Republicans whilst you're at it. Maybe burn a cross on Larry Elder's lawn.

Just give in and wallow in the shit with them, that'll help the country.

[devilgrrl]

118. Make shit up much?

BTW, F John McCain. Vietnam was a waste of time, money and lives.

[spoony]

121. Make what up? Your words condemn you.

You said you want to give back to the Republicans what they gave Kerry. You admit you want to get in the muck with them. So why deny it now? They call Kerry's purple hearts paper cuts, you call McCain a pussy. What's the difference?

[devilgrrl]

122. The difference is that Kerry deserved his medals and McCain is really a pussy.

eom

[spoony]

123. I can't do anything but laugh at you at this point.

There's literally nothing about your hypocrisy and nonsense that can be taken seriously.

[devilgrrl]

124. No problem - I don't take you seriously either.

Guess that makes us even.

[Bake]

125. Uh, McCain and Kerry both served in the same war ...

Both got injured in the same war ... both did their best to kill the enemy while they were there in the same war ... yet Kerry is good/heroic for what he did in that war, while McCain is evil for what he did in that same war ... Vietnam was wrong (which I agree, it was, but that's not the issue) so McCain was a pussy but Kerry was not.

Your logic is impeccable. Impeccably delusional.

McCain was a hero once in his young life. What he has done since (2000, especially) is sad.

Bake

[devilgrrl]

131. I'm not making any logical arguments, I'm simply making blanket statements to annoy people

I shocked that you haven't been able to figure that out by now.

BTW - John McCain is still a BIG pussy anyway.

[Bake]

132. It's working.

And on a large scale, I'd imagine.

Bake

[devilgrrl]

133. I'm glad to hear that. You want to know why?

Because John McCain is a soulless asshole. That's why.

[devilgrrl]

119. Well he is a hero! That's what hero's do. Blow people to smithereens!

Where have you been?

:sarcasm:

[onethatcares]

16. any person that has seen the damage war causes

and does not take up the idea of "peace" has something terribly wrong inside.

[bigwillq]

46. You are so right.

I hope the DEMs use this if McCain is the repuke nominee.

[Redstone]

50. Have you seen it first-hand? Just curious; I have, and I agree 100% with you.

So if you have not seen it yourself, and came to that conclusion, so much the better for your understanding of the world.

And I mean that.

Redstone

[krispos42]

112. War is better kept theroetical

I admit I enjoy playing "Medal of Honor" and used to play war strategy games like "Harpoon". I like reading and discussing the weapons of war, and I like shooting and the right to keep and bear arms.

All that is theory, and I'd prefer to keep it that way, both on a personal and national level.

[Rex]

27. At one time he was an honored war vet, like Colon Powell. Yet he

elected to destroy his political career by placing it above everything else. A very tragic figure IMO. I did feel sorry for him, now I just feel pity for his family.

[jody]

28. Read about McCain's experience in Vietnam below. He is a real hero.

John McCain

[The_Casual_Observer]

37. Hero or Zero?

[JuniperLea]

41. I'm empathetic to his heroics

And I know he endured horrific things as a POW. I feel for him, truly.

I feel for him all the more because I just get this feeling he didn't come through that experience with all his faculties. Have you ever seen photos or film of him when he didn't know anyone was looking? The pain in his face is so sad. Sadder still is the way he whips out the toothy smile when he realizes the camera is on him.

[SoCalDem]

43. like?

[JuniperLea]

47. Oh, yeah... that's scary

I've never seen that! Creepy. Monsterous. That poor man.

[butterfly77]

49. He's a maverick...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Disturbed]

55. McLame was a hero. Now he is pathetic.

He sold his soul for a shot at the Pres. position which he will never attain. It is sad to view a man crawl in the mire after he was so respected at one time.

[nevergiveup]

51. I really do feel sorry for him

Seeing the picture of him today in the Baghdad market with his bullet proof vest is so pathetic it really makes you wonder if the poor man has not gone over the edge. He has put himself on public display disproving what he had said about the streets of Baghdad and he still does not grasp the reality of it all. The man needs to retire from public life and give himself and all the rest of us some peace.

[JuniperLea]

54. He's done enough... he needs to take care of himself now

I feel the same way. His experiences have taken a toll. A tad round the bend... deservedly so after all he's been through, but hardly what we need in a president.

[Redstone]

52. Funny how our lurking pissants are so selective in their copying of messages...and yes, that's

a DIRECT challenge to you wankers to have the minimal amount of decency to quote threads that present BOTH opinions on this issue...

But you don't have that minimal amount of decency, do you? You fucking wankers.

And save yourselves the trouble of "challenging" me to "come on over there and fight you," because (as I've said before, and it's the truth), I did that, and did not hide anything about who I am, and guess what? Your moderators punked out rather than allow me to accept your invitation...

So spare me your chest-beating bravado, punks. And have the guts to show both sides of this thread, if you dare.

And did I hear somebody say "Fuck you, you cowards?" Who, exactly, is the coward here?

Redstone

[butterfly77]

63. We know ....

he is a maverick :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Redstone]

64. Ah, so you've noticed my message. BC, in particular, check the post history about the time

Andy S died, then get back to me, OK? That post was signed and registered under the name Redstone, wasn't it? I hid NOTHING. And my post is there in the CU archives, so IF you're man enough to look through them (rather than posting bullshit, poser posts that have nothing to do with reality), maybe, just MAYBE you'll be man enough to acknowledge the truth.

I joined specifically to thank one of your mods for her stance on the issue, before I got cut off. But will you acknowledge that? I bet you won't.

Because as "bad" as you claim to be, you're not. Too bad that your fellow CUers can't see you for the vaporous blowhard that you actually are.

And for the other CUers: Well, what do you got? Anything? Do I see any BALANCED copying of DU posts on this issue? Y'all going to step up to the plate and be as honest as you claim to be, or what?

I've been there. Maybe some of you have as well, but if you have, I'd hope that the experience would have have made you more honest than some of you, like "Banned from DU" and "BadCat." If you've gone through combat and come out of it a conservative, well that works for me, because you've been through combat.

But if you're going to side with bitter losers like "banned from DU" and posers like "BadCat," I'll have to part sides with you, even though we should be brothers.

EOM.

Redstone

[marlakay]

53. He sold his soul to Bush

quite a few years ago and he's not the man he used to be. Sad really because he might have made it to president if he had just kept up being who he used to be. Non partisan who worked with both sides. And a war hero. Now its like he throws crap in the soldiers faces.

[Poiuyt]

57. I think what we're really arguing about here is the definition of "hero"

Is it being courageous? Or do you need to perform some feat where you put your life at risk to save or protect someone else(as Redstone did when he ran into the burning building)? No one is arguing that McCain was very courageous and had to put up with some terrible conditions.

Personally, I think the term is overused to the point that it has become a cliche.

[butterfly77]

93. Thank You...

[Bake]

126. I'd say climbing in the cockpit of a fighter jet to fly combat missions qualifies

That takes more courage than I can possibly imagine, knowing that any moment could well be your last one on earth. Refusing an offer of repatriation because it doesn't include your fellow POWs ... that qualifies.

What McCain has become, though, is sad and pathetic. Advocating torture at Gitmo, particularly when he has been through it himself, is sad and pathetic.

Bake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. He lost any credibility as a POW war hero...

when he defended abuse of POWs.

[IChing]

61. McCain was gonna blow up a powerplant before he was caught.

That was his last mission in a country that had never attacked the USA.
He had traveled 12,000 miles miles to do that.
He was a volunteer. He believed in his mission and had completed 23
other missions to blow up things and people. Granted he was in the Hanoi Hilton
and exhibited some bravery there, as have people that have been imprisoned and
tortured in these times. That doesn't excuse the torturers or the crimes that
the imprisoned might have done.

[uppityperson]

62. Everything a "hero" does is NOT heroic, all their time is not "hero time"

You can be a hero, you can do heroic deeds, yet other times be just a regular person, fucking up like we all do.

[Redstone]

65. Yes, you can, and yes, you are indeed. Well-summarized.

Redstone

[Colobo]

66. It's very easy to sit

behind a keyboard and type some stupid shit about a war hero just because you don't happen to agree with his politics.

It's, if anything, dissapointing.

[butterfly77]

94. We know ...

I can't ask this question because: He's a Maverick and if a maverick is a hero he can't be question about anything and hero's are always RIGHT!

[Gabi Hayes]

67. I'm sure the Vietnamese consider him a great hero, for

the mass murder he willingly volunteered to commit

I met a guy in grad school who was an F4 pilot, and he came back to get his M. Ed, so he could become a teacher, and MAKE AMENDS for the mass murders he considered himself to have committed.

he said he'd never had a good night's sleep since he returned, and would never forgive himself for what he'd done. he didn't realize, he said, what he was doing at the time, cause that's the way it was for most gung ho pilots back then (I imagine that's the way it still is, and always has been)

let's remember, all the Luftwaffe aces in WWII were considered heroes by the Germans back then

let's remember, McCain was NOT defending hearth and home when he MADE his CHOICE to murder innocent civilians

I could give a rat's ass about anything he's done since, and what he's done in the recent several years has revealed his true character

[Jennicut]

69. McCain was a war hero but he has a history of screwing things up for himself

I believe he was a hero after he came out of the pow camp. I won't begrudge his fighting the Vietnam War or volunteering. My Dad volunteered and was lucky they never sent him there. Besides, coming from an army family, he could have been brainwashed by his father to think this was the right thing to do. Anyways, McCain's heroism slowly was depleted over time. He left his wife (first or second, can't remember now) for his current wife Cindy after he got back form Vietnam. She was severely crippled and disfigured in an auto accident. She stood by him when he was a POW but he dropped her like a hot potato and married a beer heiress, Cindy Lou Hensley. Gee, I wonder what he needed that money for? To win in congress? Oh and did anyone forget the Keating five? Jonnie-boy got off on that one. Part of the Savings and Loans mess in the late 80's. The of course he got screwed over by Karl Rove during the 2000 election and had untrue slurs spread about him but what does he do. He unleashed his anger for a few years but then turned around and started butt-kissing the same man who helped stick it to him in the primaries: Georgie, aka Chimpy. Then of course he showed himself to be a real buddy to John Kerry by saying one thing and doing another. He claimed to be appalled by the Swift-Boaters and their allegations against Kerry but he was indirectly supporting the men who most likely allowed it to happen (Georgie and Karl). He had to have known the dirty tricks that were used on him were being used on Kerry. Some friend. All in the name of being elected president. Too bad he misread Chimpy's dying support and support for this ridiculous war. Johnnie, quite frankly, your an idiot. And you won't win the primary. That other lovely bastion of morals and ethics, Rudy, has your number. Time to pack it in. I almost felt sorry for him when I read he has to have staffers put his jacket on him and comb his hair as he is so disabled he can't do it on his own (due to injuries he sustained in pow camp). Almost. But he lost me with his utter carelessness about the truth and his lack of real morals over time. To be a real hero, one must live their entire life that way. Little mistakes are allowed but not the kind McCain has done. He misspent his heroism.

[whoneedstickets]

68. Let's not Swiftboat McCain....

Questioning the validity of his military service and undeniable suffering in a the Hanoi Hilton is petty meanness on a republican scale. Forget it.

In any case, McCain is a wash-out. He can't raise money from the GOP base (is currently third in the invisible primary $) and blew his chance to cross over and stick it to Bush in 04 when many were clamoring for him to join a 'national unity' ticket--repudiate the war--and retake the White House. He determined, errantly, that devoted loyalty to Bush would win back the base he had alienated with his 'independence'. So he swallowed his anti-torture rhetoric and started to crow the party line on Iraq. But the fundies aren't buying his shtick and his lurch to the right has eroded most of his 'maverick straight talk' credibility. His political future is bleak. As is his tenure as Senator in a state that has been moving left for a decade.

[AZBlue]

70. He's a POW who now turns his back on other POWs & Vets!

I know he spews a lot of rhetoric about forbidding torture, helping vets, etc. However, I know of two vets who appealed to him personally when they were having trouble after Vietnam and couldn't get the help they needed - and he told one "sorry, too busy" and completely ignored the other. Actions speak louder than words, IMO.

[Swamp Rat]

73. He is a hero because he hurts the refucklican party every time he opens his big, fat mouth.

:)

[ConsAreLiars]

74. He murdered innocents for the sake of global capitalism. That makes him a hero

in the eyes of many. He murdered numberless Vietnamese and whines about being locked up and treated like a criminal? What a spineless coward!

[cali]

87. By your lights

every American service person who was in Viet Nam or Iraq is just a spineless, murdering coward.

[Bake]

127. Hindsight is always 20-20, didn't you know that?

I wonder how many of these posters were even ALIVE during the Vietnam era.

Bake

[devilgrrl]

134. I was alive. I was a toddler but I was alive. Vietnam was still a waste of time, money and lives...

and there's no amount of hero worship that can change that. It was a stupid, wasteful war that the US had no chance of winning. Plain and simple.

[Bake]

135. You have the benefit of hindsight we didn't have in the 60s.

Yes, many of us opposed the war back then, especially by the late 60s. But many who opposed the war had no choice but to go over because of the draft.

I didn't get drafted, in the interests of full disclosure. But if I had, I'd have damn sure done everything I could to come back in one piece. And if that meant killing the other guy before he killed me, so be it. Would that make me a hero? Not by itself, no.

There is no hero worship here. Many of us are simply honest enough to apply the same standards to McCain that we apply to Kerry, and not do like the Swift Liars. The case you have been making throughout this thread is no better, in fact no different, than what the Swift Liars did to Kerry.

Bake

[devilgrrl]

136. What I'm doing may not be right but at least I'm not being paying BIG $$$$ to do it.

And one more thing...

Vietnam was a stupid war as all wars are.

[Imagevision]

75. McCain ws a hero back in the Nam era - today he's a Bushbot...

[WilliamPitt]

76. That was then, this is now

As the child of a Vietnam vet, I make it my business to defend soldiers of that war, this war, or any war as a matter of course. Blame the sword, not the hand that weilds it.

Beyond that is the seven-year hell he endured. I have no metric to approach understanding his experience, but I know it is worthy of my respect.

He has become a sad caricature, a brave soldier who once tried to change politics, but has since allowed politics to change him. I don't hate him, I don't disrespect him. I pity him. No one on the planet knows how far he has fallen more than he has, and all the insults you can hurl are no match for the silent scream he must hear in whatever remains of his conscience whenever he has to deal with a mirror.

The best message you can send him is to deny him your vote. Beyond that, you're talking to stone. His war resume wasn't enough to convince the Jesus-shouters that control his party. The berzerk nonsense of the Right, and the wrenching truth of their power, turned him into a political prostitute, because he wants the Oval.

If there was ever a sadder fate for a hero, I've not heard it. And yeah, he's a hero. What is bears no resemblance to what was, and the peddling of that 'was' is a travesty.

And he knows it. He knows it in a way you could never batter into him. He knows what he is. It's a goddam shame.

[B Calm]

77. He walked the streets of Baghdad without body armour!

[w4rma]

81. That's not true. He wore body armor and had 100+ US soldiers as bodyguards for his photo-op. (nt)

[The Lost Patriot]

83. He wore a flak jacket.

[w4rma]

80. He is definitely worthy of the title "hero". Unfortunately, the last time he was heroic was long ago

He's been corrupted in his quest for the White House and power.

[The Lost Patriot]

82. The heroic part was not the captivity issue...

It was the fact that he was given the chance to go home, but he chose to stay in captivity until all his men were released. He refused to leave them there alone. That is fucking heroic. But still the man is so mentally scarred he has no business in the white house. His decisions would be to biased, hell we'd probably be back in Vietnam within a year to take out the assholes that kidnapped him.

[TwilightGardener]

95. I can't even believe this is a question. He survived the ultimate

ordeal with honor, spirit, and dignity. He put his fellow captives ahead of himself. He came home and instead of succumbing to demons (think of the PTSD he must have suffered), he made himself a success and continued to serve the people of AZ and the US as a respected Senator. I am disappointed too by what he's done to himself in the name of ambition, but I doubt any of us could have walked in his shoes any better. Let him keep his hero status. He earned it.

[treestar]

84. for similar reasons as why Kerry is, but don't expect to

hear any republic acknowledge that.

[spoony]

108. I barely see people here acknowledge it. n/t

[Malikshah]

86. McCain ....Lindbergh

US Heroes whose eventual character were heinous...

[blondeatlast]

91. I have diabetes--I'm NOT diabetic. Yes, it's relevant here.

It's very much like the way I tell people "I have diabetes" rather than "I am diabetic." The latter makes me the disease, the former is a part of me, just like the fact that I'm blonde and blue eyed. I won't let the disease define me.

"Hero" should die as a noun. Faced with terrible choices (rescuing that kid from a burning building, surviving the Hanoi Hilton) most of us would probably choose the heroic act. Survival, compassion--whatever the reason, most people can find the courage to endure something hideous, dangerous, or traumatizing. To say that the firefighters who went into the WTC were "heroes" does them a tremendous disservice, IMHO. That was what they were paid to do and they did it. Their choice of careers was heroic, the act itself required tremendous courage nut they acted heroically nearly every time they were dispatched.

Enduring the flooding in New Orleans was heroic as hell. Those that didn't survive and those that just managed to keep body and soul together, even if they couldn't/didn't manage to help others, acted heroically--no less so than those that volunteered to help.

IMHO, nothing can take away the fact that McCain acted with enormous courage under unimaginably horrendous conditions. He acted heroically--but no, he isn't a "hero" in my eyes. No one is.

For me, the word "hero" doesn't exist.

[devilgrrl]

99. What's so heroic about having your plane shot down?

What's so heroic about insisting in sending men today to suffer the same as he suffered then?

John McCain is shitty pilot and an even worse human being.

[LSK]

109. He worked with JOHN KERRY on restoring relations with Vietnam

and making sure there are no more US POWs still held in Vietnam.

But this was 15-20 years ago.

[devilgrrl]

113. Then sat back and did nothing when the Swiftboat liars pissed all over Kerry

he's a great guy. :sarcasm:

[mdmc]

110. He served in Nam... enough for me

read Joe Campbell - he knows much about hero's and the hero quest.

[wicket]

114. He's a war hero, but politically, he is a coward

n/t

[devilgrrl]

120. Duke Cunningham is a hero too.

He flew a plane around too but didn't get shot down and wasn't taken prisoner. That makes him a lesser hero.

:eyes: