I am confused about this Miss California incident...

[spin]

I look at the views of two of our party’s leaders...

Obama:

Obama says that he personally believes that "marriage is between a man and a woman" but also says that "equality is a moral imperative" for gay and lesbian Americans. He advocates the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) because "federal law should not discriminate in any way against gay and lesbian couples, which is precisely what DOMA does." He supports granting civil unions for gay couples, and in 2006 he opposed a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. In March 2007, Obama initially avoided answering questions about a controversial statement by a U.S. general that "homosexual acts" are "immoral," but Obama later told CNN's Larry King, "I don't think that homosexuals are immoral any more than I think heterosexuals are immoral."

Hillary Clinton:

Clinton opposes same-sex marriage but favors civil unions in which gay couples receive full recognition and benefits. She says that "marriage has always been province of the states" and advocates repeal of a provision in the Defense of Marriage Act that prohibits federal recognition of same-sex marriage. In the U.S. Senate, she opposed amending the Constitution to ban gay marriage. While she has solicited and received the support of gay and lesbian groups, many gay activists were alarmed over her March 2007 comment that the morality of homosexuality was up "to others to conclude." She later released a statement saying that she does not believe homosexuality is immoral. In an April 2008 interview, Clinton said she would change federal tax policies and immigration laws to eliminate disparities affecting same-sex couples.
http://pewforum.org /

and compare their comments to what Miss California, a fairly naive young woman said:

"We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage," Miss Prejean said. "And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offence to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

My own views support civil unions for gay couples offering the same benefits and the same disadvantages as marriage between opposite sex couples.. But it's really just terminology. It makes little or no difference to me what the union is called as long as the people involved have the same rights.

I wonder if the pageant directors knew beforehand what questions would be asked? If so, I smell a set up. I also noticed that they were quick to state that they paid for her boob job. Did they, or were they willing, to do this for the other contestants?

When I was her age, a long long time ago in a different universe, I held far different views on gays let alone gay marriage. Through the years I've changed my views as I've known and worked with many gay people.

But she is very young and admittedly very beautiful. Wisdom doesn't occur in early adulthood. Some questionable pictures were taken by possibly a professional photographer when she was underage.
I believe that she was sandbagged by a celebrity with his own agenda. The pageant, possibly for its' own publicity, chose to throw her under the bus.

Should I, or other Democrats, treat her with contempt and spit on her for her views? Through the years haven’t we matured and gained life experience? Some experts say the frontal lobe of the brain is not fully developed until age 21.

I feel she is merely a pawn that was moved by game players to be sacrificed for their own advantage.



In the end she'll turn out fine as the right wing will grab her for their own devices.

[jody]

1. Different strokes for different folks.

[Bill McBlueState]

104. nice example of a straw man

The guy even has straw-like hair to drive the point home. :thumbsup:

[rufus dog]

2. INCOMING!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also had no issue with her response. She is a young, not so bright person. Her original response was her opinion, no matter how uneducated. Perez Hilton was a dickhead for calling her a C*&^.



:hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide: :hide:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[foxfeet]

30. Well, I guess that eliminates straight women from judging future pageants.

And pretty much affirms that the only thing beautiful about women is their fuckability. Not to mention that all gay men obviously find women to be completely repulsive.:sarcasm:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

32. I don't think that's the reason he doesn't belong

He doesn't belong because he's a snarky bastard, always criticizing female celebs as being too fat or dressing like whores. He pushes everything that is wrong about what women need to look like.

[Ex Lurker]

81. good answer. Before this flap I never knew who Perez Hilton was. It's only

taken me a week to learn that I despise him.

[Book Lover]

36. totally off-topic, but Amiga? 500? Really?

[Mari333]

44. actually, the contestants look like drag queens

so it makes sense to me.

[Hepburn]

70. IMO...most drag queens look better...

...and this is coming from a straight elderly female! :hi:

[Mari333]

98. I was in a beauty pageant when I was 19

so I know well how FAKE we had to be. I needed the money for college so when I was asked to try for Miss Indiana, I went for the try. fake eyelashes, make up with a trowel, etc etc...whole thing was horribly fake. again, we were drag queens, and I agree . I know many drag queens who are better at it then I was!! good lord, they can have it.

[Shell Beau]

48. Surely that is sarcasm. Please tell me that is sarcasm.

[mitchtv]

54. Looks like ignorance with a touch

of homophobia

[Duncan Grant]

64. CYA, Amiga. Thanks for playing. (nt)

[Control-Z]

67. You're joking. Right? -eom

[shellgame26]

68. That statement has got to be

one of the dumbest things I've read on here in a long time.

[JI7]

26. it's not her response as much as what she is doing after the stupid pageant

and becoming a spokesperson to oppose same sex marriage and crying about how she didn't win because of her moral beliefs.

[Old Hank]

33. She was criticized even before becoming a spokesman

I disagree with the view that she is being criticized for her association with the anti-gay marriage organization rather than her answer in the contest.

[Duncan Grant]

65. Ok. What's your defense of Carrie Prejean. I'd honestly like to read it. (nt)

[Hissyspit]

88. The judges had a perfect right to base their judgement on her answer.

Plenty of people have criticized Obama and Clinton here because of their views.

[Maru Kitteh]

94. And if she had (on stage) espoused white/white marriage, black/black marriage etc, in HER country?

What say you?

[Ex Lurker]

79. Allowing Perez Hilton to become the face of the marriage equality movement is

the worst thing that could happen for it. He's not a sympathetic character to Middle America-or anybody else for that matter. He plays into every negative gay stereotype.

[JonLP24]

101. In all fairness

What he actually said when confronted about calling her 'bitch' he said he was thinking 'c-' not that it makes it any better and not that I codone it but I know what he said, what he said he was thinking.

[madaboutharry]

3. This is how I see it:

I actually think her trouble started when she said "No offense to anyone out there...". It was the flip tone with which she stated her opinion that was as disturbing as what she said. She sounded arrogant. I actually think if she said the same thing in a different way we would not have ssen the same reaction.

Also, the topless pictures surely aren't helping her!

[Amiga500]

25. "Also, the topless pictures surely aren't helping her!" That's a strawman.

Donald Trump, co-owner of the Miss Universe Organization, refused to comment on the current controversy although according to insiders he is investigating the issue and taking it very seriously -- although this definitely isn’t the first time the Donald has been slapped with a snap-related scandal.

In December 2006, former Miss Nevada Katie Rees was dethroned when pictures of her performing intimate acts and simulating oral sex were leaked. However in 2006, Miss Universe Australia Erin McNaught was still allowed to compete despite having posed topless for men’s magazine "Zoo Weekly" in 2004.

[madaboutharry]

31. "Zoo WeeKly"

Now that is a great name for a mens' magazine. As in "men are animals and belong in a zoo".

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

38. Beauty Queens are certainly prepared to handle questions.

And she knew she might be asked this one:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517228,00.html

Carrie Prejean: I had a gut feeling. I knew he was controversial, and so was the question. Out of all the topics I studied up on, I dreaded that one, I prayed I would not be asked about gay marriage. If I had any other question, I know I would have won.

[spin]

40. Interesting, I didn't realize that. (n/t)

[Starry Messenger]

41. Glad I could help.

:hi:

[Shell Beau]

49. From what I have heard, she wasn't the top pick before she answered

the question. I may be wrong on that. I probably should research, but I was told that she was not ahead of the winner before that. So, she needs to back up off thinking she was going to win.

[Hepburn]

71. Oh, please....

...blaming her loss on the fact that gays want equal rights?

Not only is she STUPID...but she is a fucking dumb bigot.

JMHO

[Starry Messenger]

74. Oh, I totally agree.

I'm not defending her at all.

[Hepburn]

82. Sorry....I was not clear....

...did not mean YOU were defending her loss. I meant SHE was defending her own loss in that manner.

:hi:

[riderinthestorm]

63. Miss California is a bigot, a cheater and reneged on a legally binding contract.

Why does she get some kind of pass from you? She's not being held to any "high standard". She was contractually obligated to compete fairly and she couldn't even do that. She knew the questions ahead of time and determined to give a bigoted answer. She cheated by getting implants. Finally, she signed a contract before she even entered the contest that she had never posed for partially nude or full nude pics before. Liar.

You also need to do some research on your Rethug talking points about your "definition" that "marriage" has only been between men and women for "centuries". Our very own Native Americans who preceded us to this continent, and who still exist here, recognized same sex marriages - many tribes still do.

You're perspective on what's "defined" about marriage is very flawed imo. You don't get to arbitrarily define marriage any way you want it to be.

[Duncan Grant]

66. +1

:applause:

[spin]

72. Out of curiousity, how do you feel towards the views...

on gay marriage that Obama has expressed?

Although Barack Obama has said that he supports civil unions, he is against gay marriage. In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

********snip******

From the White House Web site: President Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples legal rights and privileges equal to those of married couples. Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions. These rights and benefits include the right to assist a loved one in times of emergency, the right to equal health insurance and other employment benefits, and property rights.
http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/BarackObama.htm

Is Obama bigoted?

You state that She cheated by getting implants. My research found:

Friday morning a Miss California Pageant official confirmed previous reports that controversial contestant Carrie Prejean received free breast implants, organized and paid for by the pageant, weeks before the Miss USA competition.

In an interview on "The Early Show," Keith Lewis, the co-Director of the Miss California Pageant, admitted to helping Prejean get the boob job.

"We assisted when Carrie came to us and voiced the interest in having the procedure done," Lewis told "Early Show" co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/01/miss-californias-breast-i_n_194385.html

I'll grant you that she was less than honest on the subject of semi nude or possibly nude photos. I do find it strange that these pictures appeared only after the comment she made in the Miss USA pageant. However, if she does lose her crown over this issue I can understand the ruling of the California's state pageant officials.

When I originally posted this thread, I expected far more negative replies. I decided to move my fire extinguisher closer to my computer. I was pleasantly surprised that many responses were favorable. The others were informative.

For example, your comment on American Indians caused me to do some research and I did find some very interesting sites such as:
http://rictornorton.co.uk/marriage.htm

edited because for some strange reason DU only posted 1/2 of the reply.

[riderinthestorm]

102. Yes, I believe Obama and Hillary are bigoted about gay marriage.

I'm not in any way squishy about pointing that out. Hypocritical asses on the subject actually.

As for Ms. Prejean being a cheater, yes actually, I believe that as well. I know there isn't any rule about getting implants but it appears to me that she used the California pageant board to gain an unfair advantage over other contestants (who perhaps didn't have access to that kind of surgical enhancement). Sorry but it smells like cheating to me.

Lastly, I'm on dial-up (rural farmer) and can't/won't open your link. You'll have to explain to me what it is before I risk a computer crash because it's a video or high graphic site.

You want to paint this woman as some naive sweet young Christian thang. She's not. She's now being exposed as a manipulative, exploiting, bigoted hypocrit - everything the offended judge sensed from her original answer. She wanted to be the representative of the UNIVERSE and yet even as she spoke her bigoted spew, she botched the delivery. Well she's landed a gig as the new Anita Bryant who was no dummy.

[spin]

105. The link is to a web page called....

Taking a 'Husband'
A History of Gay Marriage

It is an essay by Rictor Norton. An excerpt:

Gay men seem to have frequently married one another throughout history. In fact, in some societies marriages between gay men were officially recognized by the state, as in ancient Sparta, and on the Dorian island of Thera.

Much later, in 2nd century Rome, conjugal contracts between men of about the same age were ridiculed but legally binding. Such marriages were blessed by pagan religions, particularly sects of the Mother Goddess Cybele (imported from Asia Minor). At the ceremony, the bridal party consists entirely of men, who enter the temple and deck each other with "gay fillets round the forehead . . . and strings of orient pearls." They light a torch in honor of the goddess and sacrifice a pregnant swine. One man gets up and chooses a husband for himself, and dances himself into a frenzy. Then he drinks deeply from a goblet in the shape of a large penis, flings the goblet away, strips off his clothes, and "takes the stole and flammea of a bride" and the two men are married.
http://rictornorton.co.uk/marriage.htm

It also covers gay marriages between American Indians (which you mentioned).

Wikipedia also has an excellent article called History of same-sex unions. An excerpt:

Same-sex marriage has been documented in many societies that were not subject to Christian influence. In North America, among the Native Americans societies, it has taken the form of Two-Spirit-type relationships, in which some male members of the tribe, from an early age, heed a calling to take on female gender with all its responsibilities. They are prized as wives by the other men in the tribe, who enter into formal marriages with these Two-Spirit men. They are also respected as being especially powerful shamans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

While I was aware that gay men were often regarded as shamans by some American Indian tribes, I was unaware of the marriages with other men. Very interesting.

I have a difficult time calling Obama a bigot for his views supporting civil unions rather than marriage between gay people. The civil unions he proposes grant all the rights of marriage.

But what ever name assigned to the union, a gay couple does indeed deserve equal rights, as do long term domestic couples. Florida, where I live, has a law which I disagree with.

A "common law marriage" is one in which the parties may hold themselves out as a husband and wife, and under certain circumstances, be deemed married without a marriage license or ceremony. Florida doesn't have a common law marriage, however Florida does recognize common law marriages that occurred in other states.
http://www.fldivorceonline.com/flpages/Alimony/commonlawmarriage.asp

Thirteen states do recognize common law marriage. My daughter and her husband lived together for seven or eight years before their marriage. They have one of the best relationships I've ever seen, but my daughter basically had no legal rights in the relationship until she "tied the knot". (As a side note, my daughter's wedding was conducted by a lesbian minister. She impressed me as one of the most intelligent members of the clergy I've ever met.)

It could be argued that a civil union or a common law marriage would be regarded as a second class status by many people. However, those people would also have the same feelings if the term marriage was used to describe a gay couples union.

But it does appear that marriage will become the legal term for a gay couples union. To me, it's not a big deal.

[LostinVA]

106. "The civil unions he proposes grant all the rights of marriage." -- no, they don't

Separate but equal doesn't work, because it's inherently unequal because it is made DIFFERENT from the "norm." Marriage is a legal term, and it is impossible to rewrite all Federal, State, and Local laws.

[spin]

112. That is an interesting point...

one that I hadn't thought of.

I now can understand why it is important to call the union of a gay couple a marriage.

Thanks.

[LisaL]

78. The contest obviously doesn't require for the women to

not have plastic surgery. How did she cheat by getting implants?

[blondeatlast]

111. The answer to that is in the text, not the SL; rider explains it pretty clearly.

Take another look--maybe there's still time to edit? Oops...

[cboy4]

97. Oh snap!

:thumbsup:

[Duncan Grant]

69. Do you believe civil equality and gay lives are a matter of political correctness?!

As for the term "marriage":

I oppose using the term marriage for a union between same sex partners merely because for centuries, marriage has been defined as a union between a male and a female. To me, a union between same sex couples may be just as viable as a traditional marriage between opposite sexes. I just would like to see a different terminology used such as civil union.

For centuries, the earth was the flat center of the universe. People were enslaved in ignorance by the most powerful institution on the planet. This is a matter of civil equality for real live breathing people. It's not some academic exercise or heretical position. You can afford to be generous with words like "marriage".

edit: brevity

[Hissyspit]

4. Um, neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama have become spokespersons for "National Organization

of Marriage," a blatant bigotry group.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Entertainment/Miss+California+appears+anti+marriage/1551083/story.html

Miss California appears in anti-gay marriage ad

BY ALEX DOBUZINSKIS, REUTERS APRIL 30, 2009


LOS ANGELES -- After failing to stop recent gay marriage approvals in several states, opponents have found an attractive, telegenic poster woman in Miss California, a move reminiscent of beauty queen Anita Bryant’s 1970s crusade against gay rights.

Miss California, a Christian college student named Carrie Prejean, joined in a television ad campaign against gay marriage this week, upsetting homosexual rights advocates, including a head of the Miss California pageant.

In the commercial from the National Organization for Marriage, Ms. Prejean is shown at the Miss USA competition last month where she answered a question about same-sex marriage by saying she opposed it, drawing both boos and cheers and setting off a raucous debate.

After providing that answer, Ms. Prejean was named runner-up to Miss USA. She later said her view on marriage cost her the crown.

As gay marriage opponents have rallied around Miss California, they have also lost key battles in recent weeks.

[Shell Beau]

50. She is ignorant. She just gives Christianity more of a bad name.

I hate that kind of ignorance. Hate it.

I hope she learns from this, but I think she is getting enough kudos to make her more ignorant.

[Bucky]

5. Surely we have more worthwhile targets for our ire.

She's harmless. Let her do her thing. We should work toward marriage equality and let the minor haters fall behind.

[JI7]

6. Obama and Hillary aren't campaigning against the legalization of same sex marriage

and talking about how much moral and other shit they are. it's clearly their stand is more political than anything else.

and Obama and other Dems have received criticism for things like Rick Warren.

[jody]

12. Agree but Obama and Hillary are trying to appear to support both sides of a divisive, polarizing

political issue.

Anyone who tries to stand for everything really stands for nothing except themselves and they want their personal position to remain hidden.

[JI7]

17. they are supporting Democrats around the country who are legalizing same sex marriage

the only times they say they are opposed is if asked and even then it's usually a weak statement. but they certainly aren't out trying to pass laws to prevent same sex marriage.

miss california would not matter either if it was just the pageant where it came up. but now she has decided to become a public spokesperson to oppose same sex marriage and is playing victim and claiming she didn't win because she stood for her beliefs and other shit.

Obama has said if gay people get married it's not going to change anything for his own marriage.

[jody]

19. Why is CA's GL community still mad because Obama's statement helped

African-American voters decide to vote for Prop 8?

Obama apologists who try to spin Obama's position on this and that cannot escape the obvious, Obama did not support Prop 8 and thereby helped defeat same-sex marriage in California.

[JI7]

21. you are confused, Prop 8 was opposed to same sex marriage

support for it meant opposition to same sex marriage.

Obama was opposed to prop 8. he had the right position.

african americans who voted for prop 8 were always opposed to same sex marriage. the Obama statement was in opposition to prop 8 which was never used. i'm not sure it would have made a difference. voting patterns show that black voters often vote FOR pro gay politicians while voting against same sex marriage itself.

[jody]

28. Sorry, Obama said on national TV "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor

of gay marriage."

You can spin Obama's position but you should know the facts before you start.

[JI7]

29. i'm not spinning his position, i'm not denying he said he opposes it

[jody]

37. OK many believe that means Obama is trying to appear to support both sides of the issue. n/t

[Uzybone]

42. delete

n/t

[Psychic Consortium]

7. People on the wrong side of history right now will not fare well....

they are all going to have problems when they display
ignorance or hatred.

[ljm2002]

8. I don't know if it was a setup...

...and she was targeted, or if she just drew the short end of the stick, question-wise. Still, it did seem a little unfair that one of the contestants got a hot-button question like that. Any answer was guaranteed to piss off some listeners. So yes, I think she should not have had to answer that question in the pageant.

On the other hand: she lied about the pictures. When she signed up for the pageant, she said there were no pictures of her like that. Later, when the first picture surfaced, she said that was the only picture like that. Now it is apparent there are at least four such pictures. So at what point does she get to own her lies and, you know, take personal responsibility?

As for her being underage when the pictures were taken: that's what she says. Why should we believe her, again?

[blogslut]

9. She drew the question out of a glass bowl

She wasn't set up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XMvviFbkf0

[Starry Messenger]

10. So which part are you finding confusing?

[Sherman A1]

11. I think she is as well

but, that is just my opinion.

[OwnedByFerrets]

13. "We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage,"

You are defending THIS?? Its stupid and indefensible in its ignorance.

[Duncan Grant]

14. She's merely a pawn. A poor innocent who knows not what she does.

She's a topless "teenage" Christian model in teeny-weeny pink panties. An innocent pawn, my eye.

Those gay people on the other hand! They're a rancorous lot, ramming their lifestyle down our throats!

Poor sweet Carrie. Isn't it a shame about what the gay people have done to her? It's so wrong. :cry:

[LisaL]

45. I don't know what other photos show, but the one posted of her

in pink panties, look pretty similar to what you can find on the cover of many magazines, and don't show much more skin than was shown in the official bikini competition.

[Duncan Grant]

53. Other than Janet Jackson's Rolling Stone cover, I don't know what you're talking about.

But this isn't really about magazine covers. It's about the mine field of the moral high-ground.

Her actions don't lend her much "Christian" credibility, imho. But the idea that she's an innocent pawn?! Ridiculous.

[LisaL]

59. Have you never seen swimsuit issues of Sports Illustrated?

[Duncan Grant]

62. Hello? Sports? Nekkid womens? I have teh gay. :^)

Truly, I don't care about her photos or where they appear. Unless, of course, she signed an agreement/contract saying she never posed in a manner unbecoming to Miss California (however the Miss California folks define that...).

The point I really want to make is the OP is an apologist who infatilizes Carrie Prejean; the poor misunderstood Christian girl.

Do you have a position about Carrie and gay marriage/civil equality? "Free Speech"? Or is this simply about the photos?

[LisaL]

77. Parading around in a tiny bikini is obviously a manner becoming

to Miss California, since they do it during official competition.
But posing in pink panties, (with the breast mostly hidden), is not? Maybe there are other photos, but based on this one in pink panties, I fail to see why she should lose her crown.

[Duncan Grant]

84. Whether or not she loses her crown doesn't concern me. But she's no innocent pawn.

Carrie hasn't been tricked, manipulated or hornswoggeled as the OP suggests. The myth that she's some innocent little Christian teenage model who is being victimized by the gays is ridiculous.

The common demoninator in all of Miss California's problems is - well, uh - Miss California. Reap the whirlwind, Carrie. You've earned it.

[Maru Kitteh]

95. Perhaps being a hateful bigot is a greater offense than having a couple of breasts.

That's what I'd go with.

[BR_Parkway]

15. I have more problem with a long term DUer posting that they support

second class status for gays and lesbians when it comes to marriage rights than I do with what Miss CA said.

A number of courts and state legislatures have now pretty clearly said that civil union is not the same as marriage and have verified that their state constitutions require equal treatment of all their citizens under the law.

I took issue with her when she signed on (my guess would be for money) to support an organization that supports not allowing equal rights for all.

As for the politicians - I'm very used to them saying what they need to say to get elected, then doing what they choose to do once their in office. If Obama or Hillary had come out for marriage equality, they would have never gotten as far as they did. What I'm watching now, in just the past month, is the number of states legally recognizing same sex marriages. And how quickly they are doing it. And the world isn't ending, which strips the bigots of their objections. I'm content to reserve judgement for our national leaders until the end of their term - at the moment, their stance has been part of the reason that there hasn't been a huge backlash - another few states and the news announcements that such-and-such state has legalized it will be treated rather 'ho-hum'

[BR_Parkway]

16. I have more problem with a long term DUer posting that they support

second class status for gays and lesbians when it comes to marriage rights than I do with what Miss CA said.

A number of courts and state legislatures have now pretty clearly said that civil union is not the same as marriage and have verified that their state constitutions require equal treatment of all their citizens under the law.

I took issue with her when she signed on (my guess would be for money) to support an organization that supports not allowing equal rights for all.

As for the politicians - I'm very used to them saying what they need to say to get elected, then doing what they choose to do once their in office. If Obama or Hillary had come out for marriage equality, they would have never gotten as far as they did. What I'm watching now, in just the past month, is the number of states legally recognizing same sex marriages. And how quickly they are doing it. And the world isn't ending, which strips the bigots of their objections. I'm content to reserve judgement for our national leaders until the end of their term - at the moment, their stance has been part of the reason that there hasn't been a huge backlash - another few states and the news announcements that such-and-such state has legalized it will be treated rather 'ho-hum'

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maru Kitteh]

96. As long as the words are different, the status will be. = but different is fail. We already

tried that in the south.

= rights for all. No more. No less.

[TahitiNut]

18. I don't think it's as much about WHAT her opinion was than in HOW she expressed it.

It was very poorly said and didn't demonstrate ANY thought on her part. She essentially ascribed her 'belief' to how she was "raised." That's not how a responsible, thinking adult expresses an opinion of their own. It's how a lazy, slothful drone 'borrows' an opinion in order to comply with a social group's dogma. In saying "no offense" she was flipping the bird to anyone with a different viewpoint ... including people who suffer under the repressions engendered by the 'opinion' she parroted. I surely avoid having much to do with people like that in my personal life ... and I have no interest whatsoever in seeing them elevated to a position of 'spokesperson' or 'model' by some national pageant or contest.

Then, of course, there is WHAT her opinion is ... and it stinks.

[JI7]

23. she was raised to think it's ok to pose naked for attention, fame, money etc

her GOD would approve

[Old Hank]

39. I was surprised when I saw that 73% of Americans viewed her answer as "good"

Including even most Democrats, according to SurveyUSA:
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=f975bd27-33a6-4579-8716-7bc0fe49a96b

[TahitiNut]

58. I have a hard time taking that at face value.

First off, I don't regard SurveyUSA as that reliable. Too many of their polls are conducted through local/regional media outlets using techniques of indeterminate discipline for my taste. Next, I'm doubtful that even 50% of polled adults have paid much direct attention to this, at least enough to form their own opinion. Lastly, how can any high school graduate rate her shit as 'Good' or 'Bad'? In what way? Based on what? The size of her boobs? The quality of her dental work?

How 'bad' does it have to get to be 'bad'? South Carolina bad??

Yeow. :crazy:

Anyone thinking she did "a good job" answering is just too dumb for words.

[ProfessorGAC]

99. Indeterminate Discipline???

The statistician community finds their methodology laughable. There's nothing indeterminate about it, Nut.

They're terribly unscientific push pollers who get the answers that the funding orgainzation wants.
GAC

[TahitiNut]

109. Thank you, sir. I was, of course, being euphemistically kind.

Like the blind chipmunk, they occasionally turn up an acorn or two, but they're far from being reputable. More like a marketing function than sociometric pros.

[ProfessorGAC]

113. Absolutely Correct!

They're slime.
GAC

[tekisui]

20. I think all three are dead wrong.

Obviously, Miss CA is far inferior intellectually, and is actively working against marrieage equality, but they are all wrong.

Hillary gave the best answer of the three.

[The Straight Story]

24. Wonder how she would have answered if asked about DADT

Still waiting on that whole thing to be thrown out....

[dorkulon]

27. I really don't give a crap what she or Perez Hilton think about anything.

This was a total trivialization of the issue.

[Taverner]

34. How well did "seperate but equal" work before?

Just sayin'

[spin]

47. Good point! (n/t)

[walldude]

43. Um.... they are all wrong.

The correct answer is "I have no right to intrude on the rights of anyone else, as long as no one is getting hurt." "Many gays are already married and the world hasn't ended. So just shut up and deal."

Fucking politicians, not a one of them has the balls to speak the truth without making sure the "truth" gets them higher poll numbers and more votes.

[iverglas]

51. 42 gun salute

I agree entirely.

Oh, not with your own pointless and silly views on marriage. With your assesssment of hers, and comparison with the heroes' own.

Her view was actually more 'liberal' than Obama's and Clinton's. She seems to take it as a given that same-sex marriage is permitted, and it's just one of those things people are free to choose. An example of how the youth of even the fundie right wing see things differently from how their elders do. ;)

I hold no brief for beauty pageants or their contestants (I was one of a small group of women nation-wide who forever trashed the Miss Canadian University institution back in 1969).

But I also find it offensive when anyone is unfairly and baselessly ridiculed or denounced, simply because the ridiculers and denouncers don't like him/her for entirely unrelated and irrelevant reasons.

Anybody who's going to ridicule and denounce this one had better be ridiculing and denouncing Obama and Clinton and all the rest of the mealy-mouthed hypocrites for what they say. (I know I do!)

[mitchtv]

56. and be TS'd

for daring to?

[spin]

57. Iverglas, it's good to see your post...

I had seen so few lately that I was growing concerned.

I'm reevaluating my views on the subject of marriage and its definition. My daughter and son in law have pointed out that my old views are indeed "silly".

Be that as it may, I totally agree with your statement:

But I also find it offensive when anyone is unfairly and baselessly ridiculed or denounced, simply because the ridiculers and denouncers don't like him/her for entirely unrelated and irrelevant reasons.

In this country we seem to engage in this behavior far to often. This applies both to Republicans and Democrats. Hating others and attempting to destroy them is not progressive behavior.

While I do find the contestants in a beauty pageant attractive, I don't waste my time watching.

edited to correct formatting error.

[Hissyspit]

87. See post #85.

[UTUSN]

52. Uh. *why*?!1 n/t

[spin]

61. My confusion was based on the reaction to her answer...

and why she suddenly got 24/7 coverage.

The leading politicians in our party tip toe around this issue like it's a nuclear hand grenade. Some good looking young woman without much experience in life states her opinion and suddenly the entire media focuses on her. They attack like a pack of rabid pit bulls.

Her answer wasn't that different from the opinions of Hillary Clinton or Obama.

I did learn some info from my post. For example, I was unaware that the contestants did have a chance to review the possible questions that they could be asked.

Did her answer cause her to lose the contest? I have no idea as I didn't watch the event. I have little interest in beauty contests.

[Hissyspit]

86. See post #85.

I don't watch beauty contests, either.

[Faryn Balyncd]

55. I suspect your "smeller" is accurate......

But certainly no one would have dared to corrupt integrity of the question-draw, would they?

:sarcasm:

[mitchtv]

60. the poor poor Xian girl

and those mean , disgraceful homos. Murka is doomed

[pepperbear]

73. Whatever happened to "I want to save the world and then complete my communications degree?"

The innocent wide eyed thing would wear alot better if she hadn't gone to every camera in town and complained about losing THE VERY NEXT DAY, and if she hadn't used her loss to anoint herself the new Anita bryant. The pictures would mean a whole lot less if she hadn't kept going on about her Christianity. Gee, sorry they came to light, but that's what happens when you gain notoriety.

The Barbie Doll thing makes her more dangerous, not less. Personally, either your believe in equality (because there's that word "Equal" right there in the Declaration of Independence) or you don't. There's no in between. Miss CA doesn't. Funny how beautiful still equals innocent.

By the way, her answer was bubble-headed, she used poor grammar and poor syntax, and she obviously doesn't know anything about the current federal position on gay marriage. Miss USA is supposed to be poised. Unfortunately, we'll never see the winner's response (Miss NJ, by the way) because she's been totally overshadowed by Carrie Prejean.

[t0dd]

75. I think the real question is...

Who will come out in support of same-sex marriage first, Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton? Their opposition to it is becoming sillier with each passing day.

[spin]

76. I'll put my money on Hillary. (n/t)

[Hissyspit]

89. .

[spoony]

80. It's easier to bash some dumb girl than Obama

It's not complicated. She's a safe pinata to unload on, in ways posters could/would never dare do on the people actually in power and who actually could, if they wanted to, propel marriage equality. Or revoke DADT. Etc.

[Hissyspit]

85. To be clear, the important backlash started when she claimed she lost the title based on some PC

free-speech backlash. She did not lose the competition because she expressed her opinion. She lost the competition because she made it clear that she might be a clumsy, embarrassing, none-too-tolerant representative for the pageant. No matter your opinion on pageants and I believe they should have gone the way of the dinosaurs decades ago, that's what happened. In addition, her subsequent reaction, showed her to be a poor loser and hypocrite. Neither Hillary nor Obama have whined that their free speech has been suppressed. Hillary and Obama are wrong, but it is not entirely equivalent in situation, as implied by the cartoon done by the ignorant hypocritical right-wing cartoonist Glenn McCoy posted at the beginning of the posts. Bigot cartoonists and right-wing talking points. Wonderful.

[spoony]

90. "but it is not entirely equivalent in situation"

No, it isn't. On one hand a powerless fool, and on the other the "leader of the free world." That's my point. I don't care that she's a hypocrite and posed nude and whined and all of it. It's all true, and she's still a nobody. She can't control policy. Nor do I care what RWers say or draw. There's a disparity here and an illogical one.

Think of it this way: a year from now no one will remember her name (and I'm being pretty generous there), but Obama and Clinton will still be at the top--and what will they have done, or not done by then for marriage equality? Will it be alright if the answer is, "Nothing but they haven't whined that their free speech has been suppressed like that pageant girl whatever her name was"?

[Hissyspit]

91. Well, we agree on the non-equivalency, but I would disagree that no one is willing to criticize

Obama and Clinton and call attention to their ability to influence policy. I have no hesitation or compunction in criticizing their stance.

[spoony]

92. Good, I find that encouraging

I know there are some consistent and applaudable critiques and efforts here to modify officials' stances. What I'm really reacting to is the frequency Prejean has been taken to task being out of proportion to her overall importance versus the administration. That and the over-puffed bravado with which some have done so, that likely would not be similar in tone to a parallel critique of the President.

But you're right, there are notable exceptions, and I don't begrudge those posters their condemnation of Prejean.

Btw, when her name is forgotten I hope the most notable Prejean will again be Sister Helen, the anti-death penalty pioneer.

[bridgit]

83. Thank you for this post ^rec ~

:kick:

[Maru Kitteh]

93. The frontal lobe isn't developed until 24

Where you smell manipulators of a PYT, I smell an empty bigot with fake teeth, fake boobs and fake moral standards.

If we're going to start excusing every behavior of our 16-25 year-old's based on biology, we're going to have to set up an island or some kind of sanctuary where they can make their poor decisions without the evil influence of the big bad world.

[spin]

107. Now that would be one wild and crazy island...

the idea might make an interesting science fiction movie or a great porn flick if the actors were of legal age.

[Rebellious Republican]

100. For those not paying attention to the original post its real simple...

"I look at the views of two of our party’s leaders..."

Obama: Blah blah blah

Hillary Clinton: Blah blah blah


"and compare their comments to what Miss California, a fairly naive young woman said:

We live in a land where you can choose same-sex marriage or opposite marriage," Miss Prejean said. "And you know what, I think in my country, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offence to anybody out there, but that's how I was raised."

Now, how many Democratic politicians have gone on to appear in anti gay marriage ad campaigns?

Did Miss California take her words a couple of steps further, yes, there in lies the problem to your comparison?

Had she just stopped at the words and not appear in this anti gay marriage ad campaign, would she be in the middle of a heated controversy?

:think:

[spin]

110. "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade" ...

Obviously it takes a lot of drive and ambition as well as good looks to make it to the Miss USA pageant.

The question she was asked was a land mine. she found herself in a lose lose situation. If she came out strongly in support of gay marriage, she would have been vilified by the Christian right. Se chose to state her opinion and was attacked by the media.

As I pointed out in the original post:

I feel she is merely a pawn that was moved by game players to be sacrificed for their own advantage.

In the end she'll turn out fine as the right wing will grab her for their own devices.

The pageant got tremendous publicity as did Perez Hilton. Many feel she should have followed the suggestions of her state pageant sponsors.

Miss California Carrie Prejean, who finished runner-up in the Miss USA pageant after affirming on air that "marriage should be between a man and a woman," claims that her state sponsors urged her afterwards to apologize for the statement and keep quiet about her Christian faith.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96294

She chose not to slink away into obscurity. It's easy to criticize her actions but they are understandable.

She could have went an entirely different route if this article is correct.

Prejean had countless TV interviews, then Prejean's racy pictures leaked on the Internet, there was scandal over her pageant-bought breasts, and even Larry King and Steven Baldwin chimed in. Then, like on cue, porn company Vivid Entertainment are now trying to get a piece.

Vivid has offered the Republican beauty queen with a $1 million offer to star in one of their films. TMZ has the letter Vivid sent to Prejean, which assures her, "This is purely a business offer and has nothing to do with your religion or your personal beliefs."
http://beat.bodoglife.com/entertainment/miss-california-carrie-prejean-offered-porn-deal-55128.html

Of course, the sad part of the situation is that the winner of the pageant is basically unknown. You have to wonder if she wishes she would have had the chance to answer the big question.

[Orsino]

103. Oppose bigotry.

It is especially painful coming from our leaders, and we should never stop pushing for equality.

[dem629]

108. The lesson to learn here is that if you are asked your opinion on something

please remember to give the opinion that the questioner wants to hear.