The Tide Is Turning

[TwilightGardener]

Does anyone remember just 3 months ago, when the first non-binding resolutions against the surge were being proposed and discussed? The reaction from BushCo on down to Congressional GOPers was, essentially, that we should all shut up--no debate on the war allowed. "Aiding and comforting the enemy", "undermining the troops", "Dems aren't patriotic", etc.--all an effort to suppress democracy and the voice of the people.

Well, where are those arguments now? The horse is out of the barn, and he ain't going back. The GOP's latest arguments continue to ring hollow, as they dig themselves ever deeper into the hole protecting Bush. The anti-war whispers in Congress, and in the public, are now a full-throated shout, in a matter of weeks. Now the focus is on WHEN we should leave. Amazing. Kudos to Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic Congress, a few brave Republicans, and the American people, who refuse to be silenced and insist on being heard. This is how things change, step by inexorable step. A few months from now, we may be seeing the same thing happen with impeachment--first whispers, then debate. What the hell happened in three months? What was the tipping point?

[YOY]

1. It's been turning for months before the November election even

I just want to see it come into full swing.

[BuyingThyme]

2. Sorry, but I can't agree.

These fuckers turned a redeployment into an escalation. People around here said it couldn't happen. It has.

[TwilightGardener]

4. My point was that it was considered taboo to even DISCUSS the

war openly in Congress--now it is expected, even demanded, by the American people--regardless of whether you are satisfied with the results, you must admit that Congress has come a long way in a short amount of time, and now Chimpy and his Repub Congress enablers have lost their grip on the reins.

[maggiegault]

6. Absolutely. The Wheels Are Totally Off The Cart.

[BuyingThyme]

7. I see what you're saying, but it took Congress four years

to reach the starting line.

[TwilightGardener]

8. Under the Republican-controlled Congress, how could Dems

have done much? I agree, I wish the outcry had happened sooner, but when the wheels start rolling, they pick up speed.

[BuyingThyme]

10. Had they stood up like adults, we'd have

much less work to do. And with people like Hillary Clinton out there, we still have a hell of a long ways to go.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

16. Exactly: if you don't have the votes - you can't do anything.....

n/t

[TwilightGardener]

17. Right--we BARELY have the votes now, and Harry and Nancy have

done an excellent job herding the cats and enticing a few 'Pugs from across the aisle--it's a slim margin, but they are doing the most with what they've been dealt.

[paparush]

3. That's true, but we just passed another $100 BILLION dollars of war funding..

months and months of more war. Which, on one hand, gives Bush** more rope to hang himself by (metaphorically speaking of course), but comes at the price of innocent lives.

[maggiegault]

5. My Brother, Who Is There, Says That We Cannot Just LEAVE.

We made this mess, we have to at least try to clean it up.

Yes, that means more American and Iraqi lives and that is sickening.

That's called warmongering. We cannot just totally cut funding to our troops and leave behind a catastrophe.

My brother's words, not mine.

[Warpy]

12. I'm afraid we missed our opportunity for that four years ago

when we guarded oil wells instead of museums and hospitals; when we gave Halliburton no bid contracts and a license to steal instead of asking the Iraqis what they needed; when we threw money around like drunken sailors to everybody who had an axe to grind against the Ba'aths and the Sunni majority instead of trying to get EVERYBODY back to work instead of letting anger and desperation fester among a 70% unemployed population.

The time for that is long, long gone, gone with the corruption of the present White House junta.

The only thing left is for us to leave try to stay and be thrown out. This is no longer the military's job. They did their jobs when they rolled over the Iraqi military in three weeks, an outstanding job that nobody predicted. Victory should have been declared when Saddam was handed over to the Iraqis.

Iraq will sink into a bloodbath when we leave, power vacuums are like that. However, it will be shorter than if we stay and try to keep a lid on things. The Iraqis are sick of war and privation and they will be motivated to end it as quickly as possible. There is no predicting what government or governments shake out. They will not like us and we will not like them. However, that's when we can help them heal through rebuilding materials handled through another nation.

There is no way to salvage what is going on now. The administration couldn't have fouled it up worse if they had been trying to as an experiment in viciousness.

Our military's job is not now and never has been occupying Iraq. Our military's job is now and always has been in Afghanistan. It's high time we kick the fools aside and let them do it.

[TwilightGardener]

13. Agree to a point, but we do owe it to the Iraqi people to help with

peacekeeping, humanitarian crises, rebuilding, etc. They also have no way to secure their own borders. SOME will have to stay--I think the first step is just to stop the door-to-door combat. Again, each step leads us further on to the next. In a few months, maybe more in Congress will be more comfortable with the thought of a faster or more complete withdrawal.

[Warpy]

14. The only way for an occupying force to stop the locals

from fighting back is to kill most of them. That is the lesson of history. Even that is only temporary, something Rome and every other empire has discovered.

[Old and In the Way]

19. Exactly right Warpy.

The peaceful transition of Iraq to a post-Saddam government could only have occurred in the initial stages of the occupation. Since we know this grand folly was really about a hostile takeover of Iraqi National Oil, no thought was given to the security requirements of the people. Too late now. The inevitable civil war will occur until the warring parties find common ground and agreement. We have no credibility as a referee there...maybe the regional powers can resolve the war, but we can't. We can only continue to shed blood and Treasury while losing more of our international reputation. We can't win, we can only determine the magnitude of our losses.

[AndyTiedye]

21. We Can't Fix It

Just what can our troops do "clean it up"? They can't talk to the people in Iraq
because they don't speak the same language. There is a critical shortage of linguists.

All our troops can do there is kill and get killed.

That isn't helping anyone.

[Robbien]

9. This turning bit sure took McCain by surprise

McCain told a big fat bald faced whopper about a war zone. Apparently he thought no one would say anything different with everyone playing along.

Well surprise.

[TwilightGardener]

11. BWAH! You're right--he is so "three months ago"--he doesn't

realize that people aren't buying the bullshit anymore, and that America is PAYING ATTENTION.

[bdamomma]

15. I think we are going to hear alot more references to us

like the American people this, and the American people that. We got to keep fighting them back. Like how stupid McCain said the American people are not getting the whole picture, or whatever that stupid remark he made.

[izzie]

18. I think it is also but Bush will keep it going until he is out of office.

I am not sure that is a good move. It will always be his war and I think some one stopping it after he leaves will make it even more his war. He can not get out of this mess he made so easy.

[TwilightGardener]

20. It depends on how likely the 'Pugs are to win in '08--Chimpy isn't

going to let go of the Neocon Oil Dream if someone else can pick up the "cause" and keep the machine humming over there. Ultimately, I think Repubs in Congress will be the ones who finally decide to shut the war down, to save their own skins.

[izzie]

23. Right on Bush is loyal to Bush.

If the water gets deep Bush will stand on Barbara's head. My father used to tell me problems builds your make-up and what you stand for but we see what it has done to Bush and it did not build much of anything.

[Rydz777]

22. "a few brave Republicans = a few scared Republicans (eom)

[TwilightGardener]

24. No, brave = brave. For those few willing to cross the aisle to do

what's right for their country, I am grateful. They will all probably pay a heavy price for being "traitors" to the psycho neocon cabal. Give 'em credit--without them there wouldn't even BE a "showdown" between Congress and Chimpy.