Dammit. Michigan mother pimps out her 7-year old daughter.

[BreweryYardRat]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/01/sex.sting.ap/index.html

TAYLOR, Michigan (AP) -- A 33-year-old woman was arraigned Sunday on charges alleging she offered to let an undercover investigator take pornographic photos of her 7-year-old daughter and have sex with the girl, authorities said.

The woman was arrested Friday after taking the girl to a hotel in Romulus, near Detroit Metropolitan Airport, where she had agreed to meet the investigator, the Wayne County sheriff's department said.

A not guilty plea was entered on behalf of the woman, who wasn't represented by a lawyer at the arraignment, department spokesman John Roach said. She was held in lieu of $1 million bail, and a preliminary examination was scheduled for April 12.

Authorities said the woman offered to let the investigator take the photos for a fee and, when she met with him, discussed being paid in exchange for sex with the child, the Detroit Free Press reported.

Worse, the kid has four siblings who almost certainly went through the same thing.

[Arkansas Granny]

1. She apparently had a duffel bag with sex toys and dresses for

the little girl.

More info here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/02/national/main2636272.shtml

I wonder how many times she has done this before with the other children.

[youthere]

2. There is no place bad enough for this woman to spend the rest of her life.

Honestly. When I heard this story on the news this morning it made me physically ill. I can't imagine the hell those kids suffered.

[slampoet]

96. The mother already lives in the area around Detroit. How many worse places are there for her?

In an area like some of the areas around Detroit everything is broken.

[helderheid]

3. Speechless

:cry: :mad:

[WI_DEM]

4. while everybody is considered innocent until proven guilty all I can say is if she is found guilty

to lock her up and throw away the key and hopefully find good people to take care of her kids.

[wake.up.america]

5. What do you do in a case as this? At least keep her away from children!!!

She is obviously sick.

[WI_DEM]

7. she is in jail and away from her kids. It's doubtful she can come up with $1 million bond

obviously until this is settled she probably won't be around children.

[Dorian Gray]

50. And really bad people

to take care of her in jail.

Sometimes my anger gets the best of me and I totally want "eye for an eye" justice. This is one of those cases. What an evil awful woman.

[Silence Dogood]

93. The woman most likely was abused herself as a child

she's definitely schizoid with sociopathic tendencies.

Pray her children are able to break the cycle.

[Morgana LaFey]

97. Do you have the same outrage for those who did the same thing

to her? It's highly unlikely she came by this behavior on her own. Parents are normally very interested --innately -- in protecting their children.

Where/how do you think she went wrong? Just on her own? She just became evil one day, out of the blue, for kicks?

People, this woman is a cog in a CYCLE that recreates itself perpetually -- creating more victims AND more perpetrators. With any luck, these children will get enough care and therapy they'll be able to break the cycle once they are adults by NOT being further victimized and/or becoming perps themselves.

[Dorian Gray]

120. Yes.

If she were still a child and not victimizing other children I would feel outraged by whatever injustices she suffered at the hands of adults who did this to her.

As it is, we have no idea if she was victimized. And if she was, she has the freedom to search out help as an adult for the pain that she suffered as a child. I hope that you are not inferring that suffering tragedy and injustice JUSTIFIES her actions? I doubt that you are.

I find what she did absolutely sickening, and I hope she suffers punishment to the maximum of the law. She was an adult. Her children were in her care, and she abused them in the most vile of ways. Regardless of whatever she suffered as a child, it does NOT justify her actions as an adult. The cycle may be more understandable from a psychological viewpoint, but she is still culpable of the crimes that she committed against her own children. As their mother, their care and well being should be the primary focus. For whatever reason, she's a vile human being who needs to address her problems through some serious psychological work while being locked up, far away from society and her children, so she can not perpetrate these crimes against children again.

[Morgana LaFey]

128. Can't disagree with much you said

My only purpose is to inform and get people to see that this kind of shit doesn't just spring full-blown from some dark place on the earth -- it's a continuum, a nasty, filthy cycle of abuse that perpetuates itself.

Yes, of COURSE she's responsible for her behavior as an adult, and must be held accountable. I feel certain that most of my posts don't say anything different. These aren't excuses I'm offering, they're explanations of something sinister that we as a society must work together to prevent -- and that is, again, the cycle of abuse.

Her children WILL grow up to be further victimized AND/OR perpetrators themselves (or just drug addicts or alcoholics or prostitutes or sex workers) unless they get serious and ongoing therapy, and even then their chances are slim 'cause these kinds of experiences tears the very soul apart.

My other purpose is to spread the blame just a bit to where it also belongs: on those (including society at large) who let HER down when she was an innocent child. Doesn't excuse her behavior now, but I hope it does soften our hearts just a bit to realize she too was once betrayed and abused and made into a broken human being when she was little and vulnerable and unable to protect herself. I hope it softens our hearts enough so we resolve to work to end these cycles of abuse.

[Dorian Gray]

130. I do admire how adamantly

you want to fight the cycle of abuse. It is a tremendous problem and your passion about it is truly inspiring. I hope you don't think that I was picking an argument. I just think that in this story alone we don't know anything about this woman's history, and I hesitate to blame her evil actions on her own abuse when we don't know for sure. But, I do acknowledge that your passion about this topic is inspiring. :)

I hope that you do make a huge difference and help stop the cycle of abuse. There are too many people out there that just don't care. Your passion and feelings about this topic are admirable.

[Morgana LaFey]

136. But why?

Thanks for your positive comments and no, I didn't think you were trying to pick a fight. But this makes no sense to me:

I hesitate to blame her evil actions on her own abuse when we don't know for sure.

Believe me, it IS what happened to her. All we don't know is the details. The likelihood of her dreaming this up on her own is virtually nil.

So, just assume for a minute I'm right (and I am) -- why would you want to give her torturers and abusers an out like that? Why would you want to assume that she alone is evil, without provocation? Why would you want to overlook the commonsensical explanation in favor of one that lets her perps off while ignoring reality? Doesn't make sense to me. It's not like I'm naming names, so there aren't any potentially so-called "innocent people" here.

Just doesn't make sense to me. But as I think about it, when it DOES just barely start to make sense of me, it seems real sexist: you'd believe that horrible thing about her (that she just dreamed this shit up on her own) but you're not willing to believe it about her perps (and since men are the consumers of such, um, activity, her perps are at least in part men). SURELY sexism isn't at work in your unwillingness to believe this, is it??

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DCKit]

10. Whaaaaaaaa?

PLEASE tell me you're kidding. Seriously.

[verse18]

11. Madspirit is absolutely right.

I work with children who have been abused and neglect and I usually steer away from threads about abuse for the sake of my blood pressure and sanity.

[blondeatlast]

12. I've seen TWO DUers with this attitude. Most of us are as horrified

as, well, any reasonable human would be.

OTOH, those DUers always seems to make it onto these threads. Just watch.

Don't PM me, I won't say. I'd rather everyone find out who they are.

[Madspirit]

16. I know of three

I know of at least three DUers who justify it every time there is a thread about kids and sexual abuse.

...and yes, they always seem to find these threads and feel a need to post on them.
Lee

[Zookeeper]

33. So, I'm not crazy!

I've noticed two DUers who seem to always pop up on these threads, one with some creepy argument about Nature programming young teens to be with older men. He never responds when I calmly challenge that theory (as a parent of teens).

The attempts to "normalize" pedophilia and abuse will not stand. :grr:

[Marie26]

51. No, you're not

I've seen that on many threads here. It is creepy & it shouldn't be tolerated.

[brentspeak]

55. Hit the 'alert' buttons on them

The mods won't become aware of them otherwise.

[CTyankee]

47. That's horrible. I have a neighbor who is "sexually adventurous" and I have

no problem with that but I wonder about her little son. She has attempted suicide once and there is no one else in the home so I don't know what she does about her son.

Just last Saturday morning my husband was clearing leaves and our neighbor's two "gentlemen callers" whose cars were there overnight made a hasty departure. I told him we should just assume she has a couple of concerned male relatives who visit the little boy. But she has already said to one neighbor quite openly that she has several boyfriends.

I am not a prude and we don't watch her but our houses are close to each other. She is quite beautiful, I think, and I don't dislike her even tho she is distant. I don't know quite how to approach her. We are older (grown kids) and we both work and she is younger, so we don't have much in common. I think it is great that she lives in New Haven, a very liberal town, and people here are not narrow minded. But I wonder about the little kid and how her male friends are treating him...

[Madspirit]

17. I wish I was kidding but unfortunately....

Go through the archives. There are several DUers who justify sex with and around kids. ...and even more who think it's OK to hit them or handcuff them or.... Makes me ill.
Lee

[brentspeak]

54. The former were either a) apolitical bizarros who posted their sick msgs

and then got kicked out; and b) RW trolls who posted their own sick messages, and then quickly got screen shots to send to RW blogs and commentators in order to say "Look! Democraticunderground approves of adult/child sex! Look! Evidence!"

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

60. Unless you know these posters' actual names, you have zip idea if they are genuine Democrats or not

I read RW sites (as a viewer), and I've compiled hundreds of my own screen shots of their screen shots and discussions of DU and DKos posts. They'll screen-capture a DU post that's bizarro a few minutes after it's been posted on DU, and before it gets deleted. Sometimes, the RWers let slip months later that it was them who posted this-or-that bizarre DU post. But I don't need to read those admissions to know it was usually them in the first place.

I suggest you find out what you're talking about before using the word "we" on this topic (as in "when we are caught doing bad").

[Madspirit]

63. ...and you don't know either

Are you claiming there are no true creeps among the ranks of Democrats?

:rofl:

Lee

[Beaverhausen]

65. You have yet to show one shred of evidence that this is tolerated here at DU

What exactly is your problem?

[Madspirit]

72. You're right

...and me and all those other posters...five or six...are all just liars. That must be our problem. Take it up with them. Unless their posts have been deleted.
Not commenting again.
Lee

[Madspirit]

74. Here...

Here are some wonderful posters in THIS very thread who's posts have not been deleted who agreed with me. Take it up with them. NOW I'm through.

verse18
blondeatlast
Zookeeper
Marie26
LostinVA
philosophie_en_rose
helderheid

I don't think this counts as calling them out because they are all agreeing with me and it's on this very thread. These are some wonderful people. I think it's only called "calling out" if it's someone you are challenging.


Lee

[Beaverhausen]

75. That's not what I'm asking you for

If you can show any threads that contain posts where people are saying child sexual abuse is OK, then have at it. Otherwise, give it up.

[Madspirit]

76. Take it up with them is what I'm saying...read my lips....n/t

[Madspirit]

77. ...because they make the EXACT claim I make....n/t

[Beaverhausen]

78. So you can't prove it. Just as I thought

:hi:

[Madspirit]

79. Yup...we're all just liars. All of us. Every one of us. Yup....n/t

[Beaverhausen]

80. I don't doubt that you see the posts- I do doubt that they weren't eventually deleted

and all I'm asking is proof of your assertion that DU tolerates people who think child sexual abuse is OK.

I mean really- you got me all excited that the pedophiles who permeate this website would show up and say how they'd love to get in on the action with the 7 year old. I was all ready with my finger on the alert button. Where are they?

[Madspirit]

82. If you like

After dinner or tomorrow, I can PM you a list of the names of the main posters who do this. Two of them post really often.

I always like you and your posts so lets back this up some because I don't want badness between us.

If you would like the names of the main posters who do this, let me know. I will PM you with them when I can. As I said, later this evening or tomorrow. Then you can go to Search and look for their posts specifically.
Lee

[Beaverhausen]

83. I don't want names. That wasn't your original assertion

You know what you said. You talked about DU, not about certain posters.

You might want to be more careful when using broad brush generalizations about DU in the future.

Or not. Whatever floats your boat.

[Madspirit]

85. When I can

When I have time then, I will hunt down every single post I am talking about. We really are not liars. ...and one is too many.

Lee

[w4rma]

68. We ban and work to jail those types of creeps. (nt)

[LostinVA]

29. She is indeed right -- unfortunately

[Skittles]

114. ugh

[philosophie_en_rose]

14. I agree with you.

In all fairness, most DUers are against child abuse. But there are also several NAMBLA supporters here.

[qanda]

19. Why would you put anyone on DU in the same boat with this woman?

I've seen some pretty awful things on DU, but NEVER have I ever seen anyone advocating a child being used as a prostitute. I certainly think it's unfair to use past disagreements with others to make those you have a disagreement with out to be in the same league as this sick woman.

[blondeatlast]

20. Sadly, they are here. I've witnessed at least two NAMBLA supporters

and some that are toeing the line.

[qanda]

23. Well, then point to those threads

The post I'm referring to didn't say that the number was a couple or a few, but made it sound like it was a popular opinion on DU.

[blondeatlast]

24. See post 12, I agree with you. And I don't care to dig through the garbage, thanks. nt

[qanda]

25. Sorry if you misunderstood my post

I was saying for the original poster to point us to the threads they were talking about. I think it would help give some perspective to the point they are trying to make without disparaging the whole of DU.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

36. Sigh--NOT YOU. Sheesh. A very close relative of mine was railroaded for

for a decidedly minor sex crime (the police even had the wrong damn car) so I absolutely am a fan of due process.

Why don't you just put me on "ignore" if I bug you that much?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. I wasn't talking about you.

[blondeatlast]

37. NOT TRUE. I made an unfortunate post in another thread, but you are not

one of those I am referring to.

I'll be happy to post an entire thread to clearing it, but seriously, I don't think that's a good idea for either one of us.

My apologies--I absolutely believe in due process for those accused of sex crimes as I stated above.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

30. I believe it is against DU rules to do so

ie -- calling out another DUer by linking to their post(s).

[qanda]

40. Hi LostinVA

I didn't think it was against the rules to link to a thread where people can make a judgment about what is being said. I wasn't thinking of linking to a particular post, but I thought we were allowed to link to threads without pointing out particular posts.

[LostinVA]

41. Okay, that's cool -- I was thinking about the posts

I know people have gotten deleted for that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. Waaaaa? Supporting NAMBLA? Please PM me the gory details. -nt

[Midlodemocrat]

48. I think if they were honestly supporting NAMBLA, and I don't doubt

you at all, Skinner would TS them himself.

We need to take a stand for DU against that disgusting stuff.

[Morgana LaFey]

98. Some of what I've seen along these lines has been pretty subtle

Kind of the, "Well, did he mean THIS, for real, or am I just imagning here?"

[Marie26]

49. This is true.

I don't know why DU doesn't just ban posters like that.

ETA: Yet I see that the post that pointed out the problem is deleted. Crazy.

[Madspirit]

53. " Yet I see that the post that pointed out the problem is deleted. Crazy"

Glad someone else noticed. Yes, "crazy". ...and unbelievable.
Lee

[helderheid]

70. I had a post deleted when a DUer blamed the victim. Crazy is right.

[qanda]

59. I believe it was deleted because it's against the rules to paint DU with a broad brush

I also believe that if there's a question about how DU is moderated, it should be taken up with the administrators of this forum.

[Marie26]

61. I have

And I believe others have as well, but there is often no response. And I've alerted, only to see these people remain. So....

[Beaverhausen]

64. where are these people? Where are their posts?

Since no one can find them, it's reasonable to assume that they were banned and their posts deleted.

What is with you people saying DU tolerates child sexual abuse? Prove it or cut it out.

[LostinVA]

66. I don't believe I said that

I said that I have seen some very distasteful posts on here regarding these type of subjects. I didn't say anything against the Mods OR the Admins.

[Beaverhausen]

69. I wasn't responding to you

In fact, I think you have noted that all questionable posts have in fact been deleted, proving that DU doesn't tolerate those who say child sexual abuse is OK.

[Marie26]

67. Well, since I can't

name anyone or "call out" anyone, how am I going to do that? It is a very, very, small number of posters, but they do exist & they haven't all been banned.

[Beaverhausen]

71. Just post a link to a thread or two where these posts are

Otherwise, I wish people would stop saying DU tolerates this.

[Marie26]

84. Alrighty then. nt

[Dorian Gray]

121. I don't believe that DU tolerates child sexual abuse

but there have been some problematic and disconcerting posts in the past regarding the topic of child abuse. The most recent threads where I saw some disturbing opinons were regarding the mother and boyfriend who had sexual relations in front of her child so that the child could learn about sexuality. Oh, and the boyfriend would masturbate in front of her. There were a couple of posts (and no, I don't remember the poster, nor do I posit that this is a DU-wide belief. Rather, I believe the opposite... that it is just one or two idiots who believe this) that posited that our view of sex was old-fashioned and there is nothing wrong with screwing in front of your child. Europeans do it all the time. Which, obviously, is not true.

[brentspeak]

56. Hit the 'alert' button

Some of those freaks are also RW trolls, aiming to discredit the site. (Of course, given the long laundry list of Republican child molestors, http://www.armchairsubversive.com/ ,it would be hard to say if the RW trolls were making up their posts or actually speaking from experience.)

If the 'alert' button doesn't work, email the admins directly about the problem.

[qanda]

62. Exactly

DU is a great site and I hate to see it discredited by a few posters who are more than likely trolls.

[Forrest Greene]

8. How Dare You People

...disparage this woman's entrepreneurial spirit?

[DCKit]

9. Sure she didn't think it was a beauty pageant?

[NoGOPZone]

38. I doubt it. Patsy Ramsey is dead. nt

[TahitiNut]

13. Taylor. Downriver Detroit suburbs.

Not too surprising, sorry to say.

[sufrommich]

27. Only those of us from the Detroit area

will understand what a truly ignorant and elitist comment that is.Do you imagine the people of Taylor(or the general Downriver area,for that matter)are any less horrified than the people in the wealthier neighborhoods? I've got news for you,child abuse is classless.What area of Detroit would cause surprise had it happened there?

[TahitiNut]

28. I lived there for about a year.

So much for 'elitist." :shrug: It's an area with all manner of perversions in larger concentrations than most, from unaffiliated fundy churches, to KKK, to neo-Nazis, to sleaze of many kinds. In all of the places I've lived in and around Detroit, it's the most distasteful to me. Happily, good people can be found anywhere ... and I found them. At the same time, it seems like a gathering place for perverts to me. YMMV, of course ... but I sure wouldn't insult you for having a different outlook (like you insult others).)

[sufrommich]

32. And in that year..

how many moms tried to sell you their kid for sex? Explain to me,since you lived there for a year, why you would make a comment like that.

[TahitiNut]

34. Since I've already answered more civilly than you deserve and you don't seem to have ...

... anything to offer other than self-righteous, antagonistic, inquisitorial bullshit, try peddling your faux outrage to someone who buys it.

If you want to defend the good people of Taylor, why not join their Chamber of Commerce?

While you're at it, you can go defend the good people of these communities, too ...
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp?S=MI&m=4

[spoony]

106. What gall to attack a region, then act the victim

When someone calls you on it. I don't suppose you'd see the irony of accusing others of being judgemental and of name-calling, considering how you began the exchange!

[WernhamHogg]

115. The people on the SPL list are indefensible

However, NONE of the 37 incidents listed on the Southern Poverty Law Center site (covering a span of 5 years) have occurred in Taylor OR in the Downriver area. The majority of the incidents listed seem to have occurred in Grand Rapids -- a city which is on the opposite side of the state of Michigan. What this woman did, if guilty, is also indefensible, but sadly I'm no more surprised to see that it happened in Taylor than I would have been surprised to see it happen in just about any other city in Michigan -- or in any other state for that matter.

[noonwitch]

117. Taylor-tucky

Taylor has a reputation for being poor white trash, with lots of incest. You can make the case the sexual abuse of children crosses all racial and income lines. This type of thing, prostituting one's children, usually goes along with a mother who is abusing drugs. There are parts of Taylor that have serious problems in this area, and parts that don't. Cops and other state and city workers called Pine Ridge apartments on Eureka RD "Crack Ridge", and the neighborhood behind it "Sin City". Yet there is a neighborhood just north of there that has nice homes and is pretty safe. All the schools there suck, though.

But adults prostituting children occurs in Detroit, too, and in a lot of other areas around Michigan. Like I said, it usually is connected to parental substance abuse.

[TahitiNut]

119. Yep. That's consistent with my experiences.

It's a suburb hit especially hard by the off-shoring of jobs, particularly manufacturing jobs. When Ford caught cold, Taylor got pneumonia. (Ford was the major employer, including the Ford Rouge plant.) But the antipathy toward community and social serices (a la faux libertarianism) kept the schools underfunded - but the bars and strip clubs busy. It was, when I was there, a generally 20-something and 30-something suburb with a very low rate of college and a moderately high rate of high school dropouts, particularly due to early pregnancy. Substance abuse was high. Clearly, not 'ALL' of any suburb can be painted by any broad brush. At the same time, the perversions of abuse (substance, spousal, child) seem to cluster. I think it's pretty clear that law enforcement knows where to look ... and that's how this sting came down. I don't think there's a higher stress on people than when they're the 'human ablatives' of a boom-and-bust economic cycle. Too many of the residents of that area are the last to get hired and the first to be laid off. For many of the residents, clinging tenuously to the 'good life' that Taylor seems to promise is a losing effort. (It's a suburb at lower end of the 'American Dream' working class aspiration - a happy-face Wal*Mart of a suburb, cheap but good-looking when new - and 'down' from there is a terror to most there.)

[spoony]

134. You know, being poor and white

does not make one trash. Nor does it mean they are going to be sick deviant arseholes who sexually abuse their kids.

[AngryAmish]

100. I think I take a backseat to no one in the Detroit-bashing department

Failed city, et al.

However I can't blame this one on Detroit or it's environs. This one I blame on mankind's depravity.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

133. I say piss off, again

Since the mods think that region-bashing is fine whilst telling such a poster to piss off isn't, I'll say it again.

PISS OFF with your elitist crap.

[TheCowsCameHome]

15. Well, that eliminates Rush - he goes for little boys.

[lpbk2713]

18. And OxyRush takes a private jet out of the country ....

when he wants to hang out with the boys.

[TheCowsCameHome]

21. That avatar is priceless.

[KansDem]

22. and that conjures up an old headline...

[Zookeeper]

35. My heart is broken for those children...

not only for what they may have endured, but also because they will have to deal with the reality of having a mother who, apparently, considered them nothing more than property to be sold. :cry:

I hope there are good homes and loving parents in their future.

[etherealtruth]

42. WTF

How can a parent possibly ... oh, God.

I am a very nonviolent/peace loving person ... I could not guarantee my behavior if anyone abused my children. I can't fathom being a perpetrator:puke:

[dogday]

43. I say put her in the sex trade in Indonesia somewhere

and let her get a taste of what it feels like to be sold like toilet paper and treated even worse... I say she needs to get a taste of her own medicine, to feel what her 7 year old felt....

[Morgana LaFey]

99. Don't look now, but

there's something like a 99.99% likelihood that she already HAS experienced exactly this.

She's a very damaged creature, and it didn't happen yesterday. She herself was likely severely sexually abused, molested, raped, possibly even prostituted as a child. Mark my words. This stuff doesn't just "happen."

I'm not interested in excusing her -- she IS responsible for her actions. But if society is EVER going to get any better, we have to understand the dynamics and work to stop the vicious self-perpetuating cycles. (And just rescuing her 7 year old at this point doesn't stop it. That 7 year old and the other kids too need intensive, very effective therapy from now til well past their own adulthood.)

[dogday]

116. So the money had nothing to do with this at all

It is just that this woman was most likely abused, therefore an abuser herself? The money played a large part of this... All this was done for cash, not because this woman has suffered in her past...

[Morgana LaFey]

125. Plenty of people who need cash never think of pimping their kids

They go rob banks, or steal from their Aunt Bess, or from coworkers. Or shoplift. Or prostitute themselves. Or give blood, repeatedly. Or do odd jobs.

[DontBlameMe]

44. If found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...

KILL HER.

Sorry, nothing more to add.

[Morgana LaFey]

101. You want to stone her to death? Or would you prefer the Rack?

Or maybe, like the during The Burning Times you would prefer to call her a Witch, and you KNOW what the test for that is, don't you? She'd be hogtied and tossed into a lake or other body of water. If she sank, she wasn't a witch after all, but she was now dead. Oops. If she didn't sink, she was a Witch and could safely be burned at the stake.


I'm sorry, but I find your "KILL HER" simply misogynist. This woman is as much a victim as her children are. That doesn't mean she shouldn't bear responsibility, but it DOES mean a trial and proper sentencing.

Please learn about the sociology of these kinds of crimes. They don't happen because some idiot woman, scourge of her race or something, decides to go bad.

[spoony]

107. "This woman is as much a victim as her children are."

I just wanted to highlight that singularly ridiculous statement for others.

[Morgana LaFey]

126. It's only ridiculous to the uninformed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=559209&mesg_id=572459

[DontBlameMe]

113. Misogynistic?

Did I misread something, or was she not, in fact, a woman? If her husband/boyfriend was involved kill HIM too.

And what part of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt don't you get?

Look, this isn't about "some idiot woman, scourge of her race" deciding "to go bad". I feel terrible that someone has problems, of whatever nature/cause, that would cause them to do something like this. I'm not particularly pro death penalty. But if she did this, proven in a court of law, with right to counsel and all that, then IMNSHO she's got to go. And her boyfriend, too.

[gollygee]

118. She might have been victimized at some point

it does seem to often happen that way.

BUT, while that would help explain her behavior, it would NOT excuse it. Her job is to be a safe mother, or if she is unable to take care of them herself, see to it that her kids were with someone safe.

[Dorian Gray]

122. I agree with most of your post

Morgana. Except for this: "This woman is as much a victim as her children are."

We do not know that. Maybe she's just an evil, sociopathic woman. Unless there is something that I am missing from the story, we have no idea if she was abused as a child.

[Morgana LaFey]

127. Well, have we had testimony or proof? No, but the chances are

something in the 90+ percentile that she did. It's just the way it works. You can't give what you don't have, you can't do what you've never been taught, and you DO do what you have been taught. I know she was abused as a child in the same way I "knew" that O.J. killed Nicole Simpson when I heard he'd been a batterer. It's just the way it works. Go research it for yourself.

[Dorian Gray]

131. I know that is the way it often works

And you've spoken of the cycle of abuse, which is something so difficult to crack and defeat. I still think that we need to be careful before jumping to conclusions about this woman, though. Either way, I think that this woman should be punished to the full extent of the law. Serious psychological counselling while serving a maximum sentence in jail for child trafficking.

[spoony]

132. I thought you said 99.99%?

You wouldn't just be making shit up would you?

[gollygee]

45. Horrifying

I can't understand how someone could do that :(

[Morgana LaFey]

102. Read some of my other posts

for a little bit of information. You can research the rest, perhaps.

[Toucano]

52. Innocent until proven guilty goes the way of habeas corpus?

We don't need Bush and Gonzo to dismantle our justice system. We already have dismantled it with our trial by media attitude.

[Beaverhausen]

58. Well if you read the article, the woman showed up at the hotel with her daughter

along with costumes and sex toys. Yes, she deserves a trial but it looks pretty bad.

[Toucano]

92. According to the article.

Since nothing has ever been written that's untrue, we should demand her head on a pike.

It's the presumption of guilt that's offensive in this thread. Some have qualified their statements with, "If she's guilty...", but too many are simply demanding she be punished, including the OP.

[WinkyDink]

73. Pertains only to the jury, not to the rest of us Homo sapiens sapiens.

[Toucano]

89. Sure, you non-jurists can just be the mob that burns her at the stake.

Presumption of innocence isn't just a legal requirement. It's a requirement of humanity.

[WinkyDink]

139. Then I sincerely hope and trust you have formed no opinion re: Bush or

Cheney's guilt vis-a-vis a potential impeachment.
Or anyone beside Libby, re: Plame.
Or Tom DeLay.

I agree with Dan Abrams: "“innocent until proven guilty” is a courtroom standard. My opinion is not the same as a courtroom… Nothing about the American system of justice requires ordinary citizens to refrain from having opinions; and it’s not inconsistent to want Courts to adhere to “beyond any reasonable doubt” while holding my personal opinions to a less stringent standard."

I don't think "humanity" ought to be required to get lobotomies.

[Codeine]

81. Hey, she'll get her day in court,

but as I won't be on the jury I'm fully allowed to make up my mind in advance!

[Toucano]

87. Hey, let the media tell you what to think.

You can bomb Iran any time you'd like with that philosophy.

[Codeine]

88. Yes, of course - the media decided for me.

I find it much simpler that way.

"You can bomb Iran any time you'd like with that philosophy."

Oh, how cute! I must be a Freeper, too! Any other words you'd like to put in my mouth or philosophies and positions you'd like to ascribe to me, as long as I'm here?

Heck, having you define me is almost as easy and fun as letting the media think for me! It's pure bliss.

[Toucano]

94. But that's what you're doing!

They tell you something salacious, and you salivate for vengeance.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. You said you've reached your conclusion about a persons innocence or guilt based exclusively on a media report.

Same thing the majority of Americans did prior to invading Iraq.

On edit:

My post wasn't directed at you anyway, but at the OP who is "certain" about what happened.

[Codeine]

95. Weeee! Now I'm salivating for vengeance!

This is AWESOME! *sluuurp*

>>My post wasn't directed at you anyway, but at the OP who is "certain" about what happened.

Well, then it was *sluuurp* a good thing think you replied *schluuurpp* to MY statement then, wasn't it?!

[WinkyDink]

138. That is a nonsensical remark.

[ComerPerro]

109. hey, I hear ya, but you should have stayed out of it, lol.

a lot of people like to prove how compassionate they are by burning accused pedophiles and sex offenders in effigy here on the forums.

The more you advocte beating, torturing, and murdering those accused of crimes against minors, the more righteous and pro-children you are.

Eventually, if you mention cutting nuts off or torture or death penalty or murder enough times, it overshadows the fact that in real life, you have done nothing, ever, not even once to help abused and exploited children.

Or at least that's the thought process.

All talk, no action.

[laylah]

86. Unfortunately this happens

MUCH too often. I work with at-risk kids and just recently encountered a young girl (13) who's mom has pimped her, and her sibs, out for years. This in return for drugs and money. This particular young CHILD is now in lock-up and the mom and her "man" (one of the prime perps) are still free. I have never been able to wrap my mind around why the HELL the kids pay in so many ways, to include legal repercussions for their acting out, while their perps, many times the parents, walk? Jackpine Radical...if you are here, could you please shed some light on this?

Jenn

[aikoaiko]

90. If found guilty, I wouldn't be opposed to the death penalty.

I would be happy the push the button.

[MrSlayer]

91. Death Penalty.

Crimes such as this should be capital crimes. When you torture people, especially kids, life in prison is too good for you. Death is the right penalty.

[Morgana LaFey]

103. Can we make this retroactive, back to her torturers?

I think that would only be fair, don't you?

[spoony]

108. And who are they?

I've seen you allude to these monsters, so who are they? Surely not just the product of your presumptions, eh?

[MrSlayer]

112. You could but it's no excuse for her crimes.

I think it's even worse to do that to somebody after you already know what it's like. Crying "It happened to me" is the lamest excuse for this type of behavior.

[Morgana LaFey]

124. No, it's not an excuse. There IS no excuse for her behavior.

But there are explanations -- and the explanations indict a whole society as complicit. AND, if those who are so damned outraged about this don't bother to understand that there is a cycle of abuse that this woman has been part of, then your outrage means NOTHING, has NO VALUE. And I'm not speaking to you, MrSlayer, but to all those who responded to my posts in this thread.

But for YOU, I'll say this: it's totally INSUFFICIENT for you to mindlessly and ignorantly claim that she has done this to someone (her own children) "after she already knew what it's like." The dynamics are such that she may not understand the damage that was done to her. Some women are abused in that way as children and grow up thinking that's what "love" is like. Same for women who grew up in homes where their mothers were beaten and abused --- they think that's what love looks and feels like.

It's just not as simple as some of you think. And if you really give a damn about this horrific, inexcusable situation, you have to get way beyond the simplistic responses given here and actually do some research so as to understand how these things can happen -- it's the ONLY chance we've got as a society to stop these vicious cycles that perpetuate themselves.

[Madspirit]

135. I agree

I am not going to get into this. I just want to say I agree with every single word Morgana says. As a person who's field is psychology and as someone who works with survivors of abuse, I am astounded at the massive ignorance about behavior I see on this board. ABUSE IS A CYCLE. You don't just grow out of it. If you really feel this way, then kill her kids too because without some great intervention, they will grow up and percentage-wise, probably do the same thing.

This family needs help, not the death penalty, not more abuse, etc. The children need to be some place that's safe but I don't want this woman subjected to even more abuse. Jesus, don't you people even watch the Public Service ads? ABUSE IS A CYCLE. You don't just suffer it and then grow up all well and over it.
Lee

[Morgana LaFey]

137. Thank you, and frankly, it's about time

I had a little back up around here. :evilgrin:

Well said, btw.

[Dorian Gray]

123. You keep saying this, Morgana

and I would be all too happy to punish anybody who did the same thing to her. But, we do not KNOW that the same thing happened to her. We do not know that she suffered any abuse. Perhaps she is a drug addict and is doing this to supply her drug habit. We don't know. And jumping to conclusions that she was abused as a child doesn't change the fact that she did something extremely immoral and awful. She sold her children into prostitution. The "WHY" is what we don't know.

[riverdeep]

104. One thing they need to do,

get her to tell who her previous customers were. This woman is a sick m-f, but there's people out there who have used that girl too.

This may be conjured, if it is, it should fall apart pretty quickly. But I doubt it is. People who would have conjured it would know that this case would get scrutinized more closely than a typical DCFS case. And what would be their motive?

[Nutmegger]

110. I wonder when the pro-prison rape crowd will rear their ugly heads?

She needs to be given a free and fair trial and, if convicted, sentenced accordingly.

I'm against the death penalty 100% and cases like this never cause me to waver from my position. Here's another mind-blowing confession: I also abhor state-sanctioned prison rape, regardless of gender. It's passively supported here on DU and in the country and that makes me sick to my stomach.

We can't pick and choose who receives human rights.

[ComerPerro]

111. no prison-rape here might be because she is female, its normally attributed

to male defendants.

I think that's part of the reason you've just seen calls for the death penalty.

[shrike]

129. Here in Indiana, some woman did something similar with three of her kids

Or maybe it was four. Had them perform sex acts on her boyfriend and on each other while adults paid to watch.

She was sentenced to 100 years.