Don't You Hate Educated People?

[lame54]

http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200904270009?show=1

AP mocks Al Gore's lack of ignorance
Published Mon, Apr 27, 2009 11:09am ET by Jamison Foser

Associated Press reporter Laurie Kellman, on Al Gore's appearance before a House committee considering global warming legislation:

"I have read all 648 pages of this bill," Gore bragged, a boast that would surprise no one who caught his teacher's-pet performance in the 2000 presidential race. "It took me two transcontinental flights on United Airlines to finish it."

The schoolhouse metaphor is appropriate, if not for the reason Kellman thinks. There are perhaps only two groups of people who view knowledge as a flaw, and ignorance as an asset: Seventh-graders, and the Washington press corps.

For years leading up to the 2000 presidential election, Al Gore committed the sins of taking policy seriously, and of knowing what he was talking about. As punishment for those sins, reporters like Kellman mocked him as a "teacher's-pet" and a dull, lifeless buffoon. They propped up a dim-witted Texan (by way of Greenwich Country Day, Andover, Harvard, and Yale) who had run business after business into the ground, and skipped out on the National Guard service that kept him out of Vietnam by virtue of his father's accomplishments. On the other hand, he called reporters "Stretch," and they loved him for it. And so George W. Bush became president.

Given what happened over the following eight years, you would think the media would have enough of a guilty conscience that they would avoid treating Al Gore with precisely the same petty, stupid middle-school-cafeteria derision that led to thousands of deaths in an unnecessary war, torture, warrantless surveillance, a stunningly incompetent response to Hurricane Katrina, and a Vice President whose shooting of a friend in the face doesn't even rank among his top fifty most offensive actions.

But no: Associated Press reporter Laurie Kellman is still pointing and laughing at Al Gore, because he bothered to read legislation that deals with his life's work before testifying about it. What a nerd.

Oh, by the way: Gore wasn't bragging. He was answering a direct question.

[BlooInBloo]

1. Pretty much the entire country hates educated people - it's the national pastime.

[muffin1]

10. This is another reminder of my trip to Freeperville the other night.

The brainiacs were discussing something Barack Obama had said about the replacement for Souter. In his remarks, Obama had used the word "impeccable".

One of the comments to this post was, "Impeccable! He loves to use words like that. He thinks it impresses people".

IDIOTS!

:evilfrown:

[Raksha]

41. The Freeper was right!

The fact that Barack Obama knows how to use words correctly DOES impress people. Most people anyway--I'm not counting Freepers for obvious reasons.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

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[bjobotts]

118. Learning and reading and such is boring huh Laurie? Just tell her what to write ok.

[theblasmo]

162. You can do/receive both...

... and still do well in class. Please don't characterize all us sex freaks as being too busy to study.

[NMDemDist2]

166. sexist much? n/t

[Kajsa]

171. LOL!

'Impeccable' is such a hard word!!

I believe it's on a sixth grade vocabulary list
I have in my files.

( I teach Language Arts 6-12)

:D

[dmr]

196. My RW brother told me years ago to speak English around him

...said he didn't understand anything I was saying.

I remember to this very day, back in the 70s, exactly where we were, and the look on his face, and how astonished I felt.

I think he thought I was talking down to him, but truly I wasn't. I talked to him like I talk to everyone else. He said I was just showing off, pretending to be smarter than him.

Over the years he has fallen deeper and deeper into a hypocritical right-wing abyss. We haven't spoken since Clinton was in office. He has said some very, very bad things to me regarding my belief system. It was very toxic.

He's in another state, I can't imagine what he was like under the Bush* years. I do know that he has alienated many people who love him.

..... sigh .....

:toast: to the dictionary!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

235. Could you please post in English?

No reason to be so high-falutin'.

:grr:

[YvonneCa]

45. If that's true...then it's time it changed. If the last eight years...

...didn't convince the country of that, then we are in BIG trouble.

[MotorCityMan]

161. Nothing has changed since I was in high school

I graduated from high school in 82. I was a good student, cared about making good grades, and was in honor society.

From seventh grade on, I was ridiculed for giving a shit about my grades. I had other students tell me they hated me because I did well on homework and tests.

I definitely noticed during the 2000 election how Gore was mocked for being "too smart" and how that was made out to be a bad thing. Unfortunately, too many people fell for it.

There is a definite bias against those perceived as smart. It's nothing new, and yes, it needs to change.

[YvonneCa]

194. Same thing happened to me, only it was...

...1968. :7 Guess I'm a lot older than you. ;) But we 'smart' folks are nothing if not persistent...if we all keep at this we CAN change it. Yes, we can! (To quote a famous president.) :patriot:

[JerseygirlCT]

63. I'm hoping sufficient exposure to a truly educated and intelligent

man as president might start turning that around. Bush surely made stupid cool to far too many people.

[Obamanaut]

89. What I truly like about the way the POTUS talks is that I can understand

him - not only what he is saying, but the way he says it as well. And this even though he is much more intelligent and better educated than I am.

[JerseygirlCT]

149. That should be the case - and I'd say that a truly able communicator

does that.

Intelligence would probably lead someone to understand that talking does no good if you cannot be understood!

[razors edge]

92. And vise versa.

Those of us who had to go to work instead of college are not seeing a whole hell of a lot of love and appreciation for keeping the lights and toilets working.

Think about the consequences.

George W Bush attended the finest schools this country has to offer, and all he learned was how to screw over those without the education handed to him.

Class wars-Round one----------Ding.

[pauldg0]

111. Obama is a self made man......

...BROUGHT up from dirt to dignified intelligence....George Bush..well he was born with silver spoon in his ass and raised to be a free wheelin stupid ass drunk ivy league chimp.

[Hannah Bell]

135. excuse me, his mother worked for the ford foundation. no "dirt".

he went to private schools, including one in the ivy league, & both his fathers, step & birth, worked for national gov'ts.

his grandma was a bank vp, his great-grandpa worked for standard oil.

[whathehell]

193. As far as I know, his grandfather was an insurance salesman and his grandma

had only a high school education and had to work her way up from being a secretary. His mother was on food stamps for awhile as she worked to support herself and Barack while attending graduate school.

[Hannah Bell]

198. Furniture salesman; grandma twice a bank VP, 1st in Seattle (before Obama's birth),

then Hawaii; mother was married to Soetoro (Mobil Oil, Indonesian gov't) before she started grad school.

Obama went to private schools all his life; he never attended public schools. There is no period of "dirt poor" in his life, & he certainly didn't "work his way" out of dirt poorness.

For starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham

Ann Dunham's boss at the Ford Foundation was Tim Geithner's dad.

His great-grandparents on two sides were oil co employees/Standard Oil lease-managers during the Great Depression; "comfortable" as Obama put it.

[whathehell]

199. Well, I never said he was "dirt poor"...

but his mother did go on food stamps while working and going to school in Hawaii...

By the time Soetoro reached a comfortable position, his mother had divorced him -- When she was with him, her "home" in Indonesia was so impoverished she had to squat on the ground to pee (Dreams from my Father)

If Barack attended "private schools" in Indonesia they must have been of poor quality because his mother arose at 4am every morning to supplement his lessons.

His "private" universities were paid for by scholarships and money he made in summer jobs at places like Baskin-Robbins.

As for his more distant ancestry...His grandfather on his father's side was a goat herder.

[Hannah Bell]

201. She met Soetoro at university in Hawaii. He'd already gotten a BA in Indonesia.

That in itself puts him in the top 5% of Indonesians at the time.

When he went home, he worked for the gov't, then the oil company.

In Indonesia, Obama went to this school one year:

"Obama's teacher while he attended the Catholic St Francis of Assisi school in Jakarta's up-scale Menteng district."

then this one:

"The school was founded in 1934 as Carpentier Alting Stichting Nassau School (CAS)<1> by the Dutch colonial administration and was reserved for the children of the Dutch and Indonesian nobility.
The Indonesian government took over administration of the school in 1962, and it was then run by the Raden Saleh Foundation. Among its students have been children of Bambang Trihatmodjo, the son of former president Soeharto, as well as the grandchildren of former vice presidents Hamzah Haz and Try Sutrisno. Barack Obama spent his fourth year of schooling there.<2>"


Obama had an *elite* education in indonesia.

and you don't pay for harvard with a job at baskin-robbins.


BTW, squatting to pee is the normal way in much of asia. toilets in japan, for example, are normally squat toilets. doesn't mean they're poor.

[whathehell]

207. As for Harvard...Ever hear of something called "scholarship"?..Hello??

You seem to have a real problem with the facts of his education...As a child, he did score between 167 and 172 on his I.Q. tests, so I don't imagine he had difficulties earning scholarships.

"She met Soetoro at university in Hawaii. He'd already gotten a BA in Indonesia.
...That in itself puts him in the top 5% of Indonesians at the time...When he went home, he worked for the gov't, then the oil company".

Being in the top 5% of a third world country like Indonesia isn't comparable to that demographic in a first world country.

"Obama had an *elite* education in indonesia" ?...Perhaps by their standards.

Indonesia was a shit hole when the Soeteros went back to it and they went back only because the army ordered him back.

As for the "squatting"...Um, no. She didn't use the contraption you've posted...She had to squat on the GROUND..the dirt. Yeah.

I don't know what you've been reading, but maybe you should try for some balance by reading the story of his life in his own words.

Suffice it to say that he was neither "from the dirt" nor "to the manor born"...There IS a vast area in between.

[Hannah Bell]

210. You don't seem to be familiar with the colonial set-up. The ruling class lived much like their

western sponsors; the in-country schools they attended were also attended by the children of resident foreign advisors. They continued their educations at top-ranked western schools.

Indonesia may have been a "shit hole" for its poor, but it was no shit hole for its elites or upper middle classes.

The Soetoros in indonesia: doesn't look like a hut to me:



obama's dad: no peasant here:





http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:_Vs-323OoBAPWM:http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news

the dunhams: not "from dirt":






Yes, there *is* something between dirt poor & elite, that would be "upper-middle class," & that would be approximately obama's class background, contra the original poster's claim that he raised himself "from dirt," & contra yours that baskin & robbins jobs played any role in funding his education, or that his mother & soetoro were so poor they had to live in a hut & pee in the bushes.

she was doing *fieldwork* for her degree in indonesian villages; if she squatted to pee *in the dirt,* that was where & why, not because she herself was forced to pee in the dirt by poverty.

"They married in 1966 or 1967 and moved with six-year-old Barack to Jakarta, Indonesia, after the unrest surrounding the ascent of Suharto,<2> where Soetoro worked as a government relations consultant with Mobil Corporation, the US-based international petroleum company.<32><33>"

[Hannah Bell]

211. indonesia 1957 - wotta "shithole"! everyone eating dirt they just peed in.

hotel indonesia, jakarta 1962








http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_B1yDZr-LtkU/SIFa48UIcDI/AAAAAAAABIY/1oVaN5UY1KA/s400/barack+school+in+jakarta.jpg

[whathehell]

212. Doesn't look like a "hut"?...Doesn't look like ANYTHING but a wall behind a few people

I don't know what the bug up your butt is about Obama, but if you believe that the ONLY thing between "dirt" and "riches" is "upper-middle class" you need a Sociology 101 course.

What's between "dirt" and "to the manor born"??...Try Working Class, Lower Middle Class, and plain old "Middle class" before you get to "Upper".

When the hell were YOU born?...It must not have been long ago because in the decades following WW11, until the late '80s this country was WELL represented by all of the groups listed above.

During the 1960's America had the largest MIDDLE class in the world....Read history.


Btw, my "contention" is that he got to private schools through work, scholarships and school loans....If that fact makes you view him resentfully as "elite", than it's your problem.:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

214. soetoro's uni -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5588008&mesg_id=5595343

[whathehell]

215. No...a veritable palace,

I'm sure:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

218. kind of

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

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[Hannah Bell]

224. that's the original building, circa 1949. There was more by the 60s.

Its students in 1970 look exactly like us students.

I don't dispute obama got scholarships.

Student loans didn't become a big part of education finance until the 80s.

I got 1 ba & 2 ma/ms without a single loan, paid for all but the ba myself from work savings, teaching assistantships, & scholarships.

so you see, i don't need your info, "honey". you don't sound like you've ever set foot outside the state, except maybe on a princess tours cruise.

[Hannah Bell]

216. in fact, i was born in the first decade after ww2: loggers/millworkers.

& possibly may know as much, if not more, than you about that world.

some of my family was on relief in the depression, cause we didn't have a standard oil leasehold in el dorado ks (biggest of all US oilfields) during the depression.



the contention of the original poster was that obama worked his way up from dirt. your contention was that dunham was so poor she had to pee in dirt, & obama supplemented his harvard scholarship working at baskin & robbins.

i have no doubt he got scholarships. i have no doubt he also got help from his parents & grandparents. i also have no doubt baskin & robbins didn't figure into it at all, as someone from an *upper middle class* background could do much better for summer jobs.

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

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[Hannah Bell]

226. What's pathetic is the extent of your ire when someone contradicts the little

fairy story about Obama working his way up from poverty & his mom being forced to pee in dirt.

PS: it was you who went to the personal in this discussion: first time = post 205, where you advise me to educate myself, & it accelerates from there.

It's the default tactic of those who don't have the facts on their side.

apparent too, since you mention your father's private school, the projection involved in your attack on me.

[whathehell]

227. Again...I never said nor thought that he worked his way up from "poverty"

but furniture salesman are not "upper middle class" either..Most people here are savvy enough to know that.

The "facts" I've given here come from Obama himself....The story of his mother having to urinate in the dirt when she first arrived in Indonesia comes from his own book, "Dreams From My Father"...He's also talked about working at Baskin Robbins and having to pay off student loans.

Those are his statements regarding his life and his background.

In light of these, it seems you have two choices: You can call him a liar, or you can re-examine your preconceptions about "class"...Your call.

[Hannah Bell]

231. This thread started with someone saying obama worked his way up from dirt.

I don't understand why you got involved if you didn't think he was poor.

You originally said his dad was an insurance salesman.

Mr. Dunham's family was also in the oil business. He was the interesting kind of furniture salesman.

You want to believe the family was middle class, lower middle class, feel free.

[whathehell]

233. I got involved because you said he was "upper middle class"

which is absurd and backed up by no one.

"You originally said his dad was an insurance salesman".

Yeah, and I was mistaken..although I'm not sure it would have made a big difference.

Your assumptions seem to stem largely from the idea that his GREAT-grandparents owned oil leases?...Please....Do you know how many of those were lost in the Great Depression?

You want to continue nursing your petty resentments by denying facts, feel free.

I am now leaving the pity party..buh-bye:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

237. uh, check the record, you got involved after the first post, lady.

with evidence supposedly showing he was poor.

but food stamps in college in the 60s don't don't show that, & neither does a high school education for a woman born in 1922.

your next post tells me that even though soetoro was one of the top ~5% of indonesians who attended an indonesian university, & one of the top ~2% who attended an american graduate school, & went to work for the indonesian gov't/mobil oil, this evidence of class/connections is nothing, since:

1. you read in obama's book that mom had to pee in the dirt
2. indonesia is a shithole
3. soetoro's uni looked like a buddhist temple

your standards of evidence = whacked.

like i said, you want to believe obama was poor, lower middle, middle middle - whatever pleases you.

[whathehell]

240. Funny...I haven't seen a single post on this thread agreeing with you

about Obama's supposed "upper middle class" background.

Perhaps I should have simply ignored you the way most here have.:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

244. thought you already have me on ignore. you said you did.

"most people" bought into

the peak oil scare
the rice panic
the swine flu
the real estate bubble

"most people" go with the opinion of the crowd or the powerful. i don't give a damn what "most people" think.

[whathehell]

245. "i don't give a damn what "most people" think".....Sure -- that's why you post on a public board

duh..:eyes:

...But thanks for the "ignore" reminder!

[Hannah Bell]

247. yes, let's see if you can restrain yourself from getting in the last word.

your command of logic is underwhelming.

posting on a public board has no relevance to caring that my opinions don't match "most" people's.

especially people who favor little rolly-eye smilies in place of actual analysis.

obama's class background = upper-middle. the "son of a struggling single mother" story = PR fairytale. It's no slur on obama to say so, he's no different from most of the political class.

[JVS]

248. Here we see exactly the appeal of anti-intellectualism.

When overcome by facts, you can say that you haven't seen anyone agree with your opponent. Thus your homespun "wisdom" can prevail.

[whathehell]

251. I'm not "overcome by facts" in the slightest...If you buy her idea that

Obama is from an "upper middle class" background" -- despite everything he's said about his life -- perhaps you should say so.

[JVS]

253. If you're not overcome by facts, you'd argue facts with Hannah, rather than reception of the facts

[whathehell]

254. What "facts" are you referring to?

[JVS]

255. Hannah presented a good deal of evidence, and you decided to take it to the...

"court of public opinion" rather than address her points. That's lame on your part. The points are not proven or disproven based on popular opinion. I'm done talking with you. You go answer Hannah's points with something better. They're all still standing there for your reference, so I see no need to point them out to you.

[Name removed]

257. Deleted message

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[JVS]

258. You've been flippant and rude to her and she has responded nicely to you. I won't tolerate your...

abuse. Welcome to ignore.

[whathehell]

260. You beat me to it!

[Name removed]

262. Deleted message

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[Hannah Bell]

213. Soetoro's university, circa 60s-70s - wotta shithole!

History: Gadjah Mada University is the largest university in Indonesia in terms of student population. It is also one of the oldest universities in the country, founded on December 19, 1949; although the first lecture was given on 13 March 1946. The name was taken from the name of Majapahit's Prime Minister, Gajah Mada.

Location: UGM is located in Yogyakarta, Daerah Istimewa Yogyakarta. It has 18 faculties, 73 undergraduate study programs, 28 diploma study programs, and a graduate program of 62 study programs ranging from Social Sciences to Engineering. It has approximately 55,000 students, 647 foreign students, 2,240 employees, and 2,273 lecturers.

Facilities: When founded, UGM had 6 faculties: the Faculty of Medicine, Dentistry, and Pharmacy, the Faculty of Law, Social and Political Sciences, the Faculty of Engineering, the Faculty of Letters, Pedagogy, and Philosophy, the Faculty of Agriculture, and the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine.

From 1952 until 1972 the Faculty of Medicine was split into two separate faculties, the Surabaya branch of the Faculty of Law, Social, and Political Sciences was established, and the Faculty of Education and Teacher Training was integrated into IKIP Yogyakarta.

World Ranking: In 2007, UGM ranked number 360 on Times Higher Education Supplement World University Rankings 2007, the highest rank for university in Indonesia.

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:gJmhyQ0fEII9zM:

[whathehell]

217. So now you're points have shrunk to a single one

concerning the looks of the university of his stepfather of only four years?

Oh my.


Scholarships and loans, Honey...Scholarships, loans and brains.

[Hannah Bell]

220. no, they haven't. i don't dispute obama got scholarships. i dispute he worked his way

up from poverty, i dispute that his mother was ever poor, or his grandparents, or his great-grandparents.

ann dunham was instrumental in the development of the micro-lending programs so touted now. For the Ford Foundation.

"With a father who worked abroad for the U.S. Agency for International Development and then the Ford Foundation, Geithner lived in Zambia and Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) as a child. By junior high, he was in India. By high school, he was in Thailand.

As it happens, Geithner's father, Peter, at one point oversaw a program developed by Obama's mother, Ann Dunham Soetoro, when she worked for the Ford Foundation in Indonesia. The two met at least once in Jakarta, according to the foundation."

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.aspx?feed=AP&date=20090328&id=9737353


you may have missed this in your obsession with toilette arrangements.

obama's mom worked for the father of tim geither (kissinger associates, obama's sec of treasury) in indonesia.

[whathehell]

222. Do you dispute the existence of a "middle class"?..It would seem so

since you've stated that the only thing between "dir" and "riches" is "upper middle class"

Again..History and Sociology...Do the reading.

[Hannah Bell]

223. I don't dispute the existence of a middle-class. I dispute that standard oil

leaseholders or bank vps belong to it.

i've done a heck of a lot more reading than you on this topic, apparently.

i can tell you about obama's white ancestry back to the 17th century.

"The research traces the Duvalls to Mareen Duvall, a major land owner in Anne Arundel County in the 1600s. The inventory of his estate in 1694 names 18 slaves, according to a family history published in 1952.

Mareen Duvall was born about 1625, in the Kingdom of France and settled on the south side of the South River in Anne Arundel County, Province of Maryland circa 1655. The first tract of land patented to him in 1659 by Lord Baltimore was called "Laval," the name of an ancient town, the capital of the present Department of Mayenne in France.

He was a planter and merchant, and a public spirited citizen of the Province until his death in 1694. He resided at the time of his death at his estate, Middle Plantation, located on South River, and patented to him in 1664 by the Lord Proprietary. His public service consisted in part, with leadership in the Jacobite Party, and the Provincial Archives show his appointment to the Provincial Commission in 1683 by the Proprietary and Assembly, to lay out town sites and ports of entry for the encouragement of trade. He was the patentee of numerous tracts of land, and the purchaser of many others containing several thousand acres...

Mareen Duvall(1652-1694)came to America from Nantes, France with William Burgess. He is one of the founders of the Colony that became the State of Maryland and a direct descendant of King William the Conqueror of England... Other famous direct-line cousins to me by way of Mareen Duvall are President Harry S. Truman and Vice President Dick Cheney."

http://dowdellresearch.blogspot.com/2007/03/tracing-that-family-tree-barack-obama.html

[Captain Hilts]

158. Obama wasn't born wealthy, but he was born into a family that valued education...

mothers with college degrees, let alone graduate degrees, were really unusual in the early 60s.

Michelle Obama and Bill Clinton had to scratch a lot harder - lousier schools, etc.

But GWB "born on third, thought he hit a triple."

[DatManFromNawlins]

241. He was born into a family with wealth

To say otherwise is to deny the obvious. His private school tuition was on par with many private universities'. He was sent on trips that cost more than an entire family's vacation budget for a year.

There has never been a time in his life in which a need that could be taken care of financially was not met.

That isn't middle class. That's rich.

[whathehell]

252. Any links for your assertions?...

What was the cost of his "trips", and his "private schools" prior to college?

[DatManFromNawlins]

256. Wikipedia

http://www.punahou.edu/page.cfm?p=63

almost $17 grand gets you "A" year of schooling there.

[whathehell]

261. Yeah and if you go to this link

http://www.punahou.edu/page/page.cfm?p=63


You'll see the financial aid plan.

[Hannah Bell]

265. yes, now show me the page where kids whose mothers work for USAID & Ford Foundation,

whose fathers work for oil companies & are Kenyan gov't economists, whose step-fathers work for Mobil Oil & the indonesian gov't, & whose grandmothers are bank vp's - qualify for financial aid.

And mom was on food stamps - when?

"The Food Stamp Program provides a basic safety net to millions of people. The idea for the program was born in the late 1930s, with a limited program in effect from 1939 to 1943. It was revived as a pilot program in 1961 and was extended nationwide in 1974."

http://www.frac.org/html/federal_food_programs/programs/fsp.html


Obama born in 1961, living with grandparents & attending Punahou school 1971-on. Grandma VP of Bank of Hawaii 1970-on. She started at BOH in 1960, not as a secretary, but as an escrow officer. She was management by 1962. She'd been with a bank in Seattle, reportedly also making VP, before that.

[Jeep789]

127. Doesn't take an ivy league college to get an education

and attending one doesn't mean you will get one. Education is a life long process.

[puebloknot]

93. And like the lead in the water delivery system in ancient Rome ...

this disdain will (is already) our national downfall.

Smug and stupid! Yeah, that's it!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

99. Boy, are you right!

When I returned to my home town - the same place where the Mexican immigrant was beaten to death by the high school football players last July, the same thugs who were acquitted two days ago because the Republican prosecutor did the world's worst job of putting up on a case - for my high school reunion, I expected it, but it still caught me by surprise.

In that depressed area - which is hugely and thoroughly Republican (go figure) - I was one of the lucky ones who went to college and had opportunities that most of my classmates did not.

There were only 98 in my graduating class.

We had a good turnout, and there was a great party. The guys were great, as they'd always been, and all I got from the girls (yes, when you grow up with them, they're always "the girls"), "Oh, so you're a lawyer, huh? That's nice," and they'd turn away.

One girl, knowing my kid had married a famous rock musician, tried to slip me her son's tape of his band, and when I said I couldn't take it, shot at me, "Well, sure, you're a big-time lawyer, so why should you do anything for my son?"

It was oddly separated - the boys thought it was cool that I was a lawyer, and the girls hated me. Probably for a lot of other things, but, boy, my education was a real sore point for them.

All the teachers who were there were happy to see me, too. The old football coach picked me up and threw me over his shoulder, just out of sheer joy (we'd been great buddies back in the days).

My point is that it's very often - more often than not - a socioeconomic thing, and this reporter just feeds that ignorance and resentment. Imagine a twit like her mocking a Nobel winner. Imagine that.

Shame on her..........................................

[Hannah Bell]

136. judging from DU, i suspect the reverse - 80% of posters here seem

to hate the proles - judging from the amount of time they spend ridiculing them - as in the present instance.

[Fedja]

183. Educated people are dangerous.

It's no coincidence that schools are among the first targets of bombing when a country is being invaded.

[ninety lives]

228. Wasting America's talent

Is good for the planet, apparently.

[anonymous171]

2. I hate arrogant people regardless of their education level.

And Al Gore is not arrogant at all.

[annabanana]

81. I find ignorant arrogance FAR more annoying than knowledgeable arrogance..

That may just be me. . .

[jamesatemple]

90. How about this old equation?

Authority + Ignorance = Arrogance.

While not applicable in all instances, it seems accurate and appropriate in view of the last C-I-C.

[annabanana]

95. That certainly sounds about right...

Arrogance as a defense mechanism.. . .

[Javaman]

169. I prefer my sig line. nt

[anonymous171]

113. Arrogance is a personality flaw. Ignorance is not.

Bush was arrogant and ignorant, but most people focus only on the ignorant part.

[Pacifist Patriot]

153. Willful ignorance is.

[anonymous171]

179. Well of course.

I thought that went without saying.

[DatManFromNawlins]

242. Except that...

... most intelligent people who have arrogance are willing to be arrogant even when discussing subject matter far outside their realm of expertise.

That makes them even worse than general ignorant arrogance, because they KNOW that they don't have a grasp of the subject and yet are STILL willing to be arrogant.

[EFerrari]

3. I wish I could rec this ten times!

TG for men like Al Gore!

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Anti intellectualism and the pride in it is not limited to the Washington

Press Critters

It is an american tradition

Read Jacoby's book on it, it is just the latest critique of this

And it is hurting us at multiple levels

[Arugula Latte]

35. Believing the mythology in an almost 2,000-year-old book is a virture.

Believing in fact and reason? Very bad form. Unamerican. Hoity toity.

[anonymous171]

37. The culture war is just a smoke screen.

The true struggle is between the educated wealthy elites, who want to keep us down and the common America who wants to rise up the economic ladder. Religion is unimportant.

[Raksha]

42. Absolutely!

Do you think people are finally starting to see through the "culture wars" scam? If so, how many? Most people? Some people? Okay, ENOUGH people? I would really like to believe the number has reached critical mass, or will soon if it hasn't already.

[anonymous171]

44. I doubt it.

Judging from the posts here and elsewhere, many liberals are still fighting the culture wars even after we have "won." However, I believe that there is still hope. It has only been 4 months since our victory after all. Movements like this take lots of time to form and execute their agendas. My only hope is that it will happen soon, before they dump any more money into the pockets of the rich oligarchs.

[Hannah Bell]

139. judging from DU, no. you'd think we were living in the 18th century, with women walled up in their

homes tatting antimacassars to hear some folks here talk.

or still in the 50s, fighting the dreaded beast of "conformity" for our god-given right to express our unique personalities, creativities & "choices" - as if that desire hadn't been coopted by madison avenue sometime around 1965 & channeled into harmless lifestyle fashions.

[reggie the dog]

52. take out educated

W. was a wealthy elite, he had diplomas but he was not educated by any means. Lots of common people make it through college or even end up with MA's or PHD's.

[Richlu]

75. No, religion is used to keep people stupid

So it's a tool used by those who want to suppress others; religion justifies suffering. By postponing fulfillment until death, it's a political tool: I mean why change government to serve and create happiness when you're supposed to suffer to get to heaven? I am speaking as a deaconess in a liberal Christian church. I personally love my religion, and am upset by it's misuse.

[AlbertCat]

77. and am upset by it's misuse.

You assume it's being misused. It is not. This is its purpose. Faith is the end of inquiry. Organized religion is just ancient government used to keep the unwashed masses unwashed and subservient.

[anonymous171]

79. If faith is the end of inquiry, how do you explain Miguel Hidalgo?

A Catholic priest (and later General) who was an enthusiastic supporter of the Mexican War for Independence. He was certainly "questioning authority" by going up against the Spain and the Church, which at the time was basically like going against God himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Hidalgo_y_Costilla

[AlbertCat]

100. "questioning authority" ...

....is not necessarily inquiry.

Faith does not require questioning anything. Doubt does however. I'd say he had doubts. The mere fact that we are to be astonished that such a man was also a Catholic priest sorta makes my point. He certainly doesn't seem to be questioning whether there's a Christian god or not. See....end of inquiry.

Debating church doctrine and theological debates are akin to arguing whether Santa comes down the chimney head first or feet first.

[anonymous171]

108. Ah, so you were talking about philosophical inquiry.

I thought you were saying that religion was used to pacify the people and to keep them at bay. But you were really trying to say that it simply makes people complacent in their philosophical studies.

[Richlu]

170. Religion has been used by the powerful to pervent thinking

Philosophy--the study of wisdom--is always a problem to the small-minded. If faith can be crushed to mean "obedience" then the powers-at-be have won a media victory. Then the church is a partner to the state in suppressing real thought and inquiry. Education and philosophical inquiry are always enemies to tyrants and power-grabbers. Hence the Republican suppression of support money for college. Best to keep people dumb so they have fewer resources for change and fewer choices.

There are many liberal Christian churches, BTW, but the media sells "conflict" so they almost never interview liberal clergy--except maybe on PBS.

[wolfgangmo]

133. One of my pet interests is comparative world religions

There is one out there that has as one of it's central tenets the guideline that if their faith doctrine and science come into conflict and the evidence is clear, that science wins {I'm paraphrasing here}. It's pretty enlightened that way. It's the Baha'i faith. I almost fell out of my chair in shock when I found that out.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bluenorthwest]

164. The key phrase for them is 'when the evidence is clear'

which means when they finally accept that evidence. The Baha'i faith is nice in many regards, but when it comes to human sexuality, they are just as hung up and dogmatic as the rest of the religionists. They teach that being gay is wrong and a condition to overcome. Science laughs in their faces and they hold their bigoted dogma close rather than look to the prejudice they harbor. That fact alone shows that it is a limited path of enlightenment.
Just saying. They are bigoted toward gay folks, and they annoint that bigotry with the oil of self righteous grandstanding. Their science is anything that upholds their 'faith', which is filled with much Palinesque teachings about purity until marriage and gays being huge mistakes of the Creator, whem they personally must correct. They say god fucked up and needs them to make the gays as they should be, according to some book, not according to science or common human decency.
They are what they are. Folks who look down on others and teach vile dogma in the place of science. But they have pretty Shrines and are generally nice to people even when they hold us in contempt as 'sinners'. One on one they are cool. As a group, well, just more of the same 'us' vs 'them' building up of themselves and tearing down of others as a method of makeing their own community strong and profitable. All the money faiths must have a 'them' to make 'us' pay up big.

[Richlu]

173. Basic tenants of most religiouns are similar

Love your neighbor, honor your parents, do good actions, help the needy, don't steal, live purely, develop a relationship with the Divine in silent prayer, meditation, and contemplation, etc. We all share a lot of common values.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

101. Consider the Jesuits .........

I happen to have a special love for them, since they educated me - in ways I never understood until many years later.

Those guys were out there in all sorts of revolutionary and enlightened circumstances, all over the world, and now the Vatican - remember what happened to Bob Drinan? - yanked their choke chains so hard, they're reduced to teaching, and that's about it.

My heart breaks at what these men should be doing, since Daniel Berrigan was also a client of mine, but, thanks to Mother Church, they've been effectively - pardon the pun - neutered.

If you're interested in reading a very wonderful history of the Jesuits, check out this one:

http://tinyurl.com/cfo85n

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41hjLqK%2BwQL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[Richlu]

168. It's true

My assumption--forgive my ignorance--is that religion's highest use is to give experience of the Divine, and refine life. However, my observation is that it is used to mollify the the masses. Marx's "opiate." Whereas experience and refinement lead to intelligent questions about the nature of life during the search, forced doctrine crushes the search. Faith should be based in experience, not words.

[bigscott]

123. BUT

not everybody who is wealthy and educated is working to keep you (US!!!) down. I would qualify as both wealthy and educated and therefore many would call me "elite". I am not ashamed of the first two and I deny the third.

Peace

[Hannah Bell]

141. would you be happy in a world in which you weren't comparatively wealthy & educated?

[JVS]

259. What makes you think they aren't? Are they not working to maintain their place?

[Hannah Bell]

138. a deliberately manufactured one. you win the prize on this thread.

[anonymous171]

181. Thanks!

:hi:

[whathehell]

264. Yes, indeed...If it's almost 2,000 years old it MUST be "mythology"

:eyes:

[LooseWilly]

110. Harlan Ellison also commented on it in the Glass Teat

... He opined upon the subject, and seemed to think he'd traced it to Nixon and Agnew's attacks on the "Ivory Towers" and the spreading of that anti-intellectual "yokelism" through commercials in what he seemed to suspect was a conscious effort by the Whitehouse to get back at the liberals and intellectuals.

Of course, the Glass Teat was a collection of tv editorials Ellison was doing... so he traces what he sees of it on the tv back at the time, and I'm mostly paraphrasing. It's another angle for anyone who wants to do some exploring on the subject though.

[soryang]

119. Kurt Vonnegut theme

the mob, the commoner doesn't particularly appreciate the more talented. Every time you demonstrate your talent, their insecurity demands retribution. Also, denigrating the literate or the well informed is an easy sport, it is essentially a fascist manipulation of mob psychology. Fear, envy, anger, etc., are only very shallowly below the surface. The media are in the simple business of manipulating crowd psychology, appealing to reason is work. It is so akin to advertising, it comes naturally and it works.

[ninety lives]

230. The "press" who do this

....are pandering. They view the American public as hostile to their own university educations, and they have a very public guilt trip about it.

Some educated people - not just in media, but in business in general - fear that sounding too "educated" will alienate people.

[RoyGBiv]

5. delete

double post glitch

[MADem]

6. I think Al Gore is a wonderful human being and a great American.

And anyone who doesn't like him can kiss my ass.

:evilgrin:

[silver10]

13. I love Al Gore too.

It is a tragedy that the election was stolen like it was - what a miserable 8 years that our country will be paying for in so many ways for years and years to come. Not a proud moment in American history - a first-world democratic superpower?

[wolfgangmo]

134. Superpower yes, the rest of your list we are working on.

A first rate democracy will have several things in common. Uncorrupt elections. Electronic voting machines with proprietary source code and security a monkey with schizophrenia could crack does not belong in such a country. Neither do elections that require millions and millions of dollars to run for office thus allowing the rich to pick the candidates - this is a plutocracy.

Another thing first rate democracies have is single payer health care. They also have functioning journalism.

America has none of these things. When we get them we can call ourselves first rate. Until then we are only a very well off 3rd world nation with toys.

[malaise]

40. Ditto n/t

[RoyGBiv]

7. Some people HERE hate educated people ...

And some of those will not only not admit it, but flatly deny it in the same breath they attempt to mock someone having the audacity to express a greater knowledge of a subject.

For example, this often comes out most strikingly on threads where evidence for an assertion is demanded and at least two conflicting sources of information are cited. Invariably the "random individual posting random thoughts on his blog for which he or she cites no sources other than some other random individual posting random thoughts on their blog" will be taken as more authoritative by some than an article from a peer reviewed journal.

So, yeah, the press corps in general shows a disdain for careful thought and education. In so doing, they are reflecting the general sentiment of a large proportion of Americans, regardless of political ideology.

[BlooInBloo]

12. My current fav is the oh-so-serious thread about how cool a SCOTUS pick would be...

if he or she were neither a judge nor a lawyer. Rationale: So they wouldn't have to get bogged down in the details of the law.

:rofl:

[RoyGBiv]

15. Sadly, I've missed that ...

I could use a good laugh.

Heaven forbid we have judges who think about law. Better they think about their My Little Ponies collection.

Sheesh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Well for the moment we have had lotsa fun here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5584743

Purrfect example of the anti intellectual bent in this country by the way... if you have some time for some real hysterical shit

Hell, even the ever so popular class clown and one upmanship

Edit to add this

:banghead: I do need an industrial dose of aspirin

:rlol:

[RoyGBiv]

26. Ahhhaccckkk!

"Must be an Ivy League grad ..."

Nice.

I'm reading Christopher Hitchens' latest book _God is Not Great_ at the moment. I consider it therapy generally, especially when dealing, as I have been lately, with a particularly narcissistic relative who doesn't so much wear her religion on her sleeve as grind it down into a fine powder and blow it into your face by means of the high-powered hot air compressor that is her mouth. Hitchens is another, though, who sometimes betrays his intellectualism with a mocking diatribe against other intellects that he personally dislikes. He did in fact say at one point that it would be an improvement to this nation's court system if we appointed fewer lawyers as judges.

Of course, I cannot tell sometimes when he is kidding or being ironic. On occasion his biting wit is so finely nuanced, no one but him can understand it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. I should use a nice smack down, I did, with people like this

AAAKKKK Jacoby was right

[LooseWilly]

112. Hehe, thanks for the link.

I followed it, found that you did indeed seem to be referring to me... so I went ahead and posted another fun bit over there...

I do apologize to all you rationalists, but some days rationalism just feels too constraining.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. Actually it wasn't even you

but hey... if the shoe fits... wear it...

[BlooInBloo]

18. Here ya go...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5576841

[A-Schwarzenegger]

24. Oh, that "oh-so-serious" thread! LOFL!

There's laughing cuz you get it, there's laughing cuz you don't.
Some people are so edjumucated they can't see the forest for the
emperor's clothes. Mote, meet beam.

[Hannah Bell]

143. some folks are just too "educated" (cough) for their own good.

[treestar]

69. yeah, we've had that with the * administration. And they were lawyers too

One of my favorite ignorant people insists that the SCOTUS should be required to come to unanimous decisions. If juries have to, the SCOTUS should have to also! :rofl:

[MUAD_DIB]

28. What's wrong with that??!!

They would be uncontaminated by jurisprudence and speak from teh guts.

:sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Fer the record we have had justices that were not

part of the legal profession and were fine justices (name escapes me, hell a former president iirc) but I get the point... this is not the case some of these fine folks are making round these parts

There are valid reasons to consider that... but they are few... and would apply to a very few people who would have the intellectual curiosity for that OTJ training

[onager]

104. SC Justice Robert Jackson never went to college.

But besides serving on the Supreme Court, he was FDR's Attorney General (1940-41) and chief American prosecutor at the Nuremberg war-crime trials.

Jackson did not attend college as an undergraduate. At age 18, he went to work as an apprentice in a Jamestown law office, then attended Albany Law School, in Albany, New York, where he completed the second year of the two-year program. During the summer of 1912, Jackson returned to Jamestown. He apprenticed again for the next year. He passed the New York Bar Exam in 1913 at the age of 21 and set up practice in Jamestown, New York. Over the next 20 years, he became a very successful lawyer in New York State and, through bar association activities, a rising young lawyer nationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Jackson

As an atheist, I've always appreciated this Jackson quote:

The day that this country ceases to be free for irreligion, it will cease to be free for religion -- except for the sect that can win political power.

These quotes make me wonder what Jackson would think about the gay-marriage fight:

Civil government cannot let any group ride roughshod over others simply because their consciences tell them to do so.

In our country are evangelists and zealots of many different political, economic and religious persuasions whose fanatical conviction is that all thought is divinely classified into two kinds -- that which is their own and that which is false and dangerous.

Edited to fix Subject caused by brain implosion...

[RoyGBiv]

107. I don't think that's the issue ...

... at least not from my perspective.

I don't really care if someone is educated in a formal setting or by living in a library and having nothing else better to do. The key, though, is education, and Jackson was clearly educated in the classical sense.

What we lack in this country (in the world, actually) is people who have that somewhat fabled classical education, people who learn things for the sake of learning and then seek to apply what they have learned. What we have instead is people who learn in order to pursue a vocation. There is little, imo, more dangerous in our current age than someone hell-bent on going to college with the firm intent of being a lawyer. That individual will almost invariably become a corporate lawyer with only one purpose in mind -- to become rich and powerful and to use the law as his or her vehicle to obtaining wealth and power.

[blindpig]

154. In order to get that kind of education

you just about have to opt out of the formal education program. Too much reading not applicable to the career path.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. Two points, he was part of the legal profession

it used to be in the older days that you could get your law practice by becoming an apprentice, and he was indeed one.

So he was a lawyer

Many of the early Justices were appointed before the advent of modern law schools, and rather than attend a formal program, they "read law" - that is, their legal studies took the form of apprenticeships with more experienced attorneys. The first Justice to be appointed who had attended an actual law school was Levi Woodbury, appointed to the Court in 1846. Woodbury had attended Tapping Reeve Law School in Litchfield, Connecticut, the most prestigious law school in the United States in that day, prior to his admission to the bar in 1812. However, Woodbury did not earn a law degree; Woodbury's successor on the Court, Benjamin Curtis, who received his law degree from Harvard Law School in 1832, and was appointed to the Court in 1851, was the first Justice to bear such a credential.<39>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

And I was thinking Taft didn't have a law degree, the wiki corrected me

:-)

So at this point I am at a loss as to who I was thinking about

[soryang]

120. Apprenticeship is a more effective training method

The lack of it is the reason for so many terrible lawyers out there. Most lawyers are so selfish or so ineffective that they won't mentor or train young lawyers. They are often viewed as potential rivals for markets or positions, or a threat to authority.

[hfojvt]

124. the former President was a lawyer and had judicial experience

at least if you are talking about Taft.

[JerseygirlCT]

64. Yes!

Yes, let's have someone with little to no understanding of the law! Surely some schmo off the streets who didn't much like all that book-learning would do a far better job!

(I'm agreeing with you, of course. That one surprised the heck out of me, too).

[A-Schwarzenegger]

67. It shouldnt surprise you--the gumball who started that thread flunked the 2nd grade!

He couldnt even SPELL laywer.

[Hannah Bell]

144. i can think of lots of schmoos who would have done better than bush v gore.

[JerseygirlCT]

146. What was lacking there was integrity. You find plenty of that

in people educated in the law, too. But as with any group of people - no guarantees.

The problem wasn't their education; it was their ideology trumping that education.

[Bluenorthwest]

174. And that ideology sprang from them organically?

I think that ideology also comes from education. Depends on the eductation. Monica Goodling has a JD and is allowed to practice law. She's peer reviewed as worthy and capable. She's also Monica Goodling. Moncia Goodling, BA, JD. Holder of an advanced degree. An degree she got by learning ideology, and repeating it well.

[JerseygirlCT]

202. Wasn't she also from Regent's?

Don't know as I'd actually call that education. More like trumped up degree mill.

I don't know anyone whose ideology was formed in law school, either btw. They knew where they stood long before getting into the nitty gritty of studying law. It's not one of those educational experiences where people spend a lot of time thinking deep thoughts and having late night philosophical discussions. It's long, hard, ugly, boring work.

[Skratchez]

74. This may be a little dated...

but I say we should petition Obama to put Pauly Shore in the Supreme Court. Inevitably justice will be done and hilarity will ensue. Have we learned nothing from Dubya's slapstick torture, "What Me Worry" incompetence and "I'm a baaaaad boy" war-mongering. Just keep the people entertained with dramedy (Read Drama/Comedy) and we can all grasp at the flotsam as the waters rise and Reagan's friends float whil we protest that we have no boats. Yay!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

76. Yes, because Obama reads DU for SC suggestions

(and we don't want to confuse him with ireknee). :*

[imdjh]

86. Yeah. Law should be written in Latin and read to us by priests.

[JerseygirlCT]

203. Bwaaa!!!

love it.

[backscatter712]

188. Yeah, I got pooh-poohed in that thread.

I had the audacity to suggest that President Obama was more qualified than just about anyone to pick someone to serve on the Supreme Court, because he edited the Harvard Law Review, he worked as a civil rights attorney, then worked as a constitutional law professor. In those jobs, he pored through SCOTUS cases for a living, learned all the latin, all the case law, the styles of the different justices, and spent time picking apart various legal arguments.

President Obama knows more than just about anyone how the Supreme Court works, and his nominee will probably also be someone with that sort of deep knowledge. In other words, an educated, experienced and respected judge, who shares similar views on the Constitution and the issues.

But noooooo, it's better to put a Harriet-Myers-like idiot on the court for a "fresh perspective"...

[A-Schwarzenegger]

204. Who pooh-poohed you? Lemme at 'em!

:mad: :*

[Political Heretic]

192. I'm convinced this OP of that thread is just trolling.

That thread is CA-WAY-ZEE

[A-Schwarzenegger]

206. Depends what you mean by "just".

I prefer to believe that he always tries to slip in a parodysical
sub-text or two.

[alarimer]

88. yes, just look at the anti-vaccination and anti-science threads.

And of course all the conspiracy theory threads (9/11, Big Pharma, etc).

[tomp]

130. you only show your lack of education when you make such statements. nt

[Hannah Bell]

156. science? you mean like Merck's "Australasian Journal of Bone and Joint Medicine"?

peer review & all that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5591109&mesg_id=5591109

[blindpig]

160. And let's not forget the 'Nobel' prize for Economics.

Which has nothing to do with Alfred Nobel other than country, being issued by a committee of bankers. Self-interest much?

[Odin2005]

94. Don't forget all the anti-intellectual woo woos who prefer BS ahead of science.

Yes, you Anti-Vax and Alt-Med nuts, I'm talking about YOU!!!

[RoyGBiv]

105. Wasn't forgetting ...

That's actually one of about three subjects I had in mind when I wrote that.

[DrZeeLit]

106. We are an anti-intellectual society. Talk a good game about education, but do not follow through.

The derision of those with education, especially higher education is constant -- in all facets of popular culture and media.
Schoolyard bullies taunt the smart kids. And are the bullies in trouble? No. The smart kids are told to "toughen up."
Funding for education? No. Funding for football. Hell, yes.
Libraries? Scholarships? Student Loans? Decent schools? Decent pay for teachers? No.

But society pays $100+ for a seat at a baseball game.
Pays the baseball, football, basketball players millions.
Makes fun of the educators: those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

Al Gore is another example.

Professors always live in ivory towers and know nothing about the real world.
Oh, surprise, surprise. I don't. And I go to the market, buy groceries, cook, clean, and do my own laundry, as well as live on a very low wage with no benefits.

But thanks, AP.... we're educated, we're nerds and you, like the vast majority of American society, don't like us.

[olegramps]

147. Add to that billions are spent each year on proms.

[RufusTFirefly]

8. Education's bad for bidness

Corporations need ignorant, compliant workers, not thinkers.

[anonymous171]

14. There are plenty of pro-corporate thinkers out there.

We call them "Randroids."

[Hannah Bell]

145. plenty at DU, too. including some of the folks here denigrating those they call

"uneducated" because those non-collegiates dare to disagree with their "betters".

[Bill McBlueState]

178. How can you tell on DU whether someone's "non-collegiate"?

People don't usually put their educational background in their profile.

[anonymous171]

182. Yep. nt

[Solly Mack]

9. K&R

OMG! A reader!

[silver10]

11. If everyone was educated in this country,

Then you would have a lot fewer of them voting for the repukes (and at the same time thrilled to be working for minimum wage and gladly calling you a socialist commie pig for daring to want to help the greater good of the country). We wouldn't want that.

[anonymous171]

27. Not necessarily. Remember that Bush & Co. were all well educated.

It is all about how you use your education.

[silver10]

33. Yes, they received degrees

[YvonneCa]

47. Nice clarification...

... :7

[Hannah Bell]

148. if i recall correctly, bush & kerry went to the same school & bush's gpa

was the same or slightly higher.

[Nay]

62. They were legacy admissions and got gentleman's Cs, most of them, but they were not

well-educated. In fact, they spit on education--they had it made before they ever set foot in university. Hard work is for the little people and the grinds.

And remember that evil is already educated in all it ever needs to know -- evil.

[backscatter712]

187. That's the key right there.

Poppy Bush pulled strings to get Chimpy through college - his professors were forced to give him "gentleman's Cs", and Bush got to skate through Yale with an MBA without actually learning something.

I got my degree through a state university, and my grades weren't stellar, but I had to fucking earn my degree. If I didn't do the work in a class, and didn't learn enough of the material to pass the tests, I flunked, and I had to take the class again. I earned my degree. Bush was given his degree by his rich daddy.

[annabanana]

82. I will say that their professors probably TRIED to educate them...

I'd say they failed.. You can lead a horse to water, etc.

[dflprincess]

91. Education and intelligence are two different things

if by "education" we're referring to how far someone went in school.

One thing we learned from Bush it that it's possible for an idiot to get degress from Ivy League schools if they have the right connections. On the other hand, someone with a high school education who pays attention to what is going on and educates themself is probably more intelligent that than the average Republican MBA.

[suede1]

17. I'm still waiting for the press, (of the ones who caused it) for an apology for giving us eight

years of Bush. If they had done their jobs, Bush never would have been in the running.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

103. There's a book you want to read:

"So Wrong For So Long," by Greg Mitchell (the editor of Editor & Publisher).

http://www.amazon.com/So-Wrong-Long-Pundits-President-Failed/dp/1402756577/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241404497&sr=1-1

It's a complete and thorough examination of how the press colluded with the White House in the invasion of Iraq, the run-up to it, how the press simply read the press releases issued by those thugs in the Oval Office. it's a brilliant collection of all the articles - Mitchell is, first and foremost, a great journalist, and he even brings up the matter of suicides in the military in Iraq.

I think I'll re-read my copy ............................

[suede1]

195. Great, thank you!

[Ikonoklast]

19. It's not the education, as such.

It's the intelligence in using said education.

We have a great many educated people in this country, who attended and graduated from some of the most prestigious institutions of higher learning currently on this planet, that are completely and willfully ignorant.

Many of them are members of the Republic party.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I concluded a long time ago that willful ignorance has nuting to do with

political affiliation

It is the culture

That said some of those scions know EXACTLY what they want to do and what they are doing, but that is a matter for another discussion

[valerief]

32. Yeah, I bridle whenever I read someone write something about how

"they just don't get it." Uh, they get it. They're shoveling out propanganda to make sure "we" don't get it.

[anonymous171]

23. They aren't ignorant. They are evil.

They know what they are doing. Don't let them fool you.

[JerseygirlCT]

65. Yes, too true. Whether through family influence or not

Bush certainly graduated from several of the most prestigious schools in the country. And thoroughly disdained any education he might have gained there - preferring to go by his gut.

And too many people bought that crap.

[izquierdista]

20. Who says "Idiocracy" was fiction?

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. I think I will finally go rent the damn thing

I think I need it

[lame54]

25. oh yeah - go get it

[valerief]

31. It's a FABULOUS documentary.

"Welcome to Costco. I love you."

[Beam Me Up]

34. It's too realistic to be satire. n/t

[spooky3]

36. Jamison Foser and MediaMatters are consistently outstanding.

What important work they do.

[nickinSTL]

38. being as I have a master's degree...

I personally hate that anyone hates educated people.

I WANT educated people representing me in government.

Ignorance is not a virtue.

[reggie the dog]

54. So do I

I have an MA and it annoys me that so many people in the world think that does not mean anything. We learn a lot getting our degrees and that learing reshapes how we think and changes who we are. Plus we keep reading about our fields of study throughout our lives because, well, they interest us. But no, our MA's are just pieces of paper and we have no more knowledge than the average high school dropout.......

[spanone]

39. one of the criticisms of Gore was that he explained too much, folks don't do 'nuance'

it's really sad

[Caliman73]

84. People do not like to be challenged

to think outside of their pre-conceived notions. Some tend to become very hostile in defending their positions. It is sad.

[YvonneCa]

43. Here's some truth: "There are perhaps only two groups of people who view knowledge as a flaw...

... and ignorance as an asset: Seventh-graders, and the Washington press corps."

BEAUTIFUL!! Al Gore did a great job. :patriot:

[opihimoimoi]

48. Add those who know they are too far away from Knowledge that they want everyone else to

to be like THEM...those without and wishing more company to feel more normal and not alone...

Bullies and NPDers fall into this cat.

[daleo]

46. People making fun of people for being intelligent

Is like horses making fun of other horses for being able to run fast.

I suppose the slow horses would do it, if they could talk.

[redqueen]

49. K& EFFING R!

It is way beyond time for idiocy to stop being cool.

[seabeyond]

50. Don't You Hate Educated People?... no i really dont. i appreciate, value, like to be around

people that are smart. i like to listen to them. for them to run our country and companies and parent our children.

no

i dont hate smart people

i really really like them

[RedCloud]

51. "You think?" -" Haven't had to for the past quarter century!"

Sad but true story of my life and the quip was in response to a dear friend.

[Mike 03]

53. This appears to be a nationwide problem. I've even seen in here at DU. NT

[Captain Hilts]

55. This is the same shit Frank Rich, MoDo and Bob Herbert were slinging at Gore in 2000. nt

[malletgirl02]

61. Frank Rich

Frank Rich was also writing that shit about Gore? I'm really disappointed.

[Captain Hilts]

72. Yeah, he was. All three were enablers. I recently went back and read some of the columns.

No media source was more adamant in the 'Gore as liar' theme than the op-ed page of the NYT.

[onager]

102. Don't forget that great "liberal" Margaret Carlson

She devoted one column to gushing over the menu on Bush's press plane. Then she whined about having to travel with boring old Al Gore, who only provided "stale sandwiches," IIRC.

I hope the bitch enjoyed her fucking Lobster a la Rove. The rest of us have been paying her tab ever since.

Carlson hammered on this theme all thru 2000, and was always baying the "Gore lies" meme at the head of the pack. I can quote one of her lines from memory: "You can prove George W. Bush wrong if you get down in the weeds and do some research. But proving Al Gore wrong is easy. And fun!"

All that's missing is a "Hyuck, hyuck, hyuck."

[Captain Hilts]

157. I'd forgotten about that one. nt

[McCamy Taylor]

56. 'I don't understand, therefore you are idiots.' Roland Barthe

From a great essay called "Blind and Dumb Criticism". Apparently the French use the same anti-intellectual bullshit arguments----to attack anything Marxist or atheist lol.

http://johngault22.blogspot.com/2006/09/blind-and-dumb-criticism-by-roland.html

The reality behind this seasonally professed lack of culture is the old obscrurantist myth according to which ideas are noxious if they are not controlled by 'common sense' and 'feeling': Knowledge is Evil, they both grew on the same tree. Culture is allowed on condition that it periodically proclaims the vanity of its ends and limits of its power (see on this subject the ideas of Mr Graham Greene on psychologists and psychiatrists); ideally, culture should be nothing but a sweet rhetorical effusion, an art of using words to bear witness to a transient moistening of the soul. Yet this old romantic couple, the heart and the head, has no reality except in an imagery of vaguely Gnostic origin, in these opiate-like philosophies which have always, in the end, constituted the mainstay of strong regimes, and in which ones gets rid of intellectuals by telling them to run along and get on with the emotions and the ineffable.

Anti-intellectualism equals fascism. Always. The less the people know, the easier they are to dominate.

[Sandrine for you]

83. Yes we have this problem

too in Québec. For some times we think that it come from the fact that the elite, the educated peoples come from the one's who subjugate us, or work close to them. Then the historians of our university began to tell an another story: it was a direct politic of the Catholic church. They fused the nationalistic need with the need of the church. To save catholic, it was a necessity to isolate people from the elite, and to make sur we make a lot of babies so we can occupying the regions : Ignorance is bless...with some other mythes like our destiny to transform all the North America to the catholic confession...

And it work. Obscurantism save us has a culture.But know there is this problem of anti-elitism and anti-intellectualism. But also, with times, our success give us a new kind of confidence, and we are more and more positive in front of intelligence. And the fact that now the church is simply dying.

But now, we don't make enough babies to simply reproduce our model of society...

[Wetzelbill]

57. I always like how the people who stoke this stuff

almost always happen to have a college degree, even an Ivy League one. It's so funny and sad to see elite level journalists who graduated from s college discussing this stuff with a straight face. Or how Republicans with snooty backgrounds and degree act like they are salt of the earth types, lol.

[Turbineguy]

58. DU's arguably most reviled author

Ayn Rand wrote about this sort of thing in her book "For the New Intellectual". Conservatives must have missed that one.

[Taitertots]

59. America hates educated people and loves stupid people

We elect Bush twice. He is the forest gump of candidates.


American hate smart people because they tell them they are wrong. Even worse they have sound evidence to support it. Tell a Freeper about anything and watch their heads explode trying to comprehend it.

Bush collapsed the economy, started wars of aggression, failed at Katrina response, and people still act like he was a good president. Have you ever tried to explain why he is not? Their heads explode, and nothing rational comes out. Only a stream of louder and louder provably false statements.

Even the people I know who made the right choice and followed Obama were woefully ignorant. The majority only being able to say "hope and Change" without knowing the first thing about any of his policy choices.

[HillbillyBob]

70. NO ( * ) was not 'elected' twice, many idiots voted for him

many of us voted against him.
It was massive election fraud both times I can't believe some are still spewing the "We elected him twice"
360,000 democrats were dumped from the rolls in Florida, Ohio's electronic ballots machines, would flip votes, not only in Ohio either. Mississippi, Louisiana, counties in California, Texas, Florida, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, on and on had votes flipped. In my precinct in Broward county myself and several others were eyewitness to boxes of ballots being taken out of our polling place on the night of the election and being dumped into truck mounted paper shredders.

Then you have the Supine court jesters stopping the recount when it looked like A Gore was going to win, in the end AG was ahead in Fla even with all the cheating.
So NO WE DID NOT ELECT THAT SLIMY BASTARD TWO F ING TIMES.
Thats like the lie that A.Gore claimed to have invented the internet.
What he actually did was help get it put into the public sphere when it was actually called DARPA and ARPA net, it really belonged solely to the Department of Defense and University system developed it using tax dollars. He worked for several years to get it into public access. I don't remember off hand what the acronyms letters stand for.
And I smell dinner.....better get to that before it burns.

[BobTheSubgenius]

60. I am somewhat less educated than Al Gore, and MUCH less....

...well-informed, but I can safely say.......yes, I hate me. Can barely stand to be in the same room. I can't even imagine how awful it must be to meet this guy and converse with someone that actually knows what he's talking about.

At least I ended that last sentence with a preposition. Personal growth.

[ashling]

66. I have such self loathing for my educted self

and I keep reading new things its almost scary the way I expose my mind to new ideas. I know thi is a bad thing, but I am hooked! Addicted to education ... its a personal flaw in my character I have had since a very early adge ... I am sure that my overeducated parents - damn them - are at the heart of all of this.

I must go bow down to FOX News and admit my lack of trendiness

:sarcasm:

[hangman86]

68. Hating smart people is much easier than actually getting off your ass

and trying to better yourself. Just call them "elitist snobs" and say you don't read because you don't want to turn into one of them.

[ProfessorGAC]

71. I Hate Them. Including Me!!!

That AP story is a piece of work. Thanks for posting that.
GAC

[nickgutierrez]

73. Remember how they came down on Obama...

...after he said, when asked why he didn't come out sooner against banker bonuses: "Because I like to know what I'm talking about before I open my mouth."

[MasonJar]

78. Thank you, Al Gore, for taking the time to read the important legislation

before you spoke to the Committee about it. Now the next important point would be how many on the committee have read the legislation? As to rhe brainless one, who is obviously proud of her idiocy, how can one get in touch with the ignoramus? Kellman needs an e-mail box full of really virulent, but erudite backlash. If anyone has a link to her, PLRASE POST IT!!!!!!

[Historic NY]

80. & the knuckle draggers wonder why they are losers, you can't go through life w/ Crib notes.

[ColbertWatcher]

85. They don't use their guts enough.

[dorkulon]

87. America has always had a strong anti-intellectual bent.

It may be a hangover from the puritans, but it's in our literature and movies, from Rappaccini's Daughter to Forrest Gump. The bad guy's always a genius, the good guy's always a "regular Joe."

[burning rain]

96. The Palin wing of the GOP has weird inverted values re. knowledge & education..

Ignorance to them is a virtue, though they never call it ignorance. They make a virtue of a shortcoming by calling resentful ignoramuses "down-home," "real people," "real Americans," "genuine," "salt-of-the-earth," "just plain folks," etc. Meanwhile, intellectually accomplished, well-spoken people are denigrated as "arrogant," "elitists," "snobs," "college boys," who have "book learning" and sundry other vices.

The mostly cynical pols who encourage ignorance and denigrate education are certainly doing their followers and their children no favor -- not that these pols care.

[Odin2005]

97. It's not just a right wing thing.

Look at all the DUers spewing rants against "evil reductionist scientism" and spewing anti-vaccination BS and conspiracy-theory crap.

[DCKit]

98. So when does Token Blaque, the African American, Republic talking head...

go on the record saying Obama is "acting too white"?

They've got nothing else, so I guess it's just a matter of time.

[NoSheep]

109. Regressing is where it's at.

:silly:

[kestrel91316]

114. As a veterinarian, I can personally attest to this country's major

problem with lack of respect for those of us with formal education, professional credentials, and decades of experience. Heck, it's a major problem right on DU (in my case particularly in the Pets Forum).

I guess I was sleeping when all my brains got sucked out and missed all the excitement..........

[provis99]

115. Richard Hofstadter wrote the ultimate book on American anti-intellectualism

Read "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life" if you ever get a chance. It is one of the top twenty books any liberal with a brain should read at least once in his lifetime.

[Hepburn]

121. I was in Las Vegas this weekend...

...visiting friends and doing some business. And the issue of how some very well educated people act towards others came up. I have a bachelors, a masters and a law degree ~~ but I do not consider that any big deal. I just happen to like school a lot and do well on tests. Other people have other talents that lie in other areas that I do not have and I am no better than anyone else just because I have a bunch of degrees.

The person I was discussing this with has a HS diploma and is older ~~ female and 65 years old ~~ and I am older myself ~~ age 60 years. What this gal who I have know for about 10 years said to me was that I did not put on airs or act like I was better than anyone because I had all those degrees, etc. She said that a few years ago, she met a lady about my age who did some fly-by-night deal where she got a masters AND a doctorate in one year and after that made it sure that EVERYONE knew that she was DR So and So. She greatly dislike this person not because of the education, but because she acted like she was a big deal because she has Ph.D. after her name and acted like she was better than anyone else around her.

IMO, that is the difference I see: There are plenty of smart, talented people out there that contribute to society that have very little education. And there are smart talented people with a lot of education that also contribute. I could not care less one way or the other about Gore's educdation ~~ he contributes and does not act like he is better than anyone else. His education is just what it is and it does not make him better than or less than anyone else.

JMHO

[RandomKoolzip]

122. Do you think anyone consciously acts "stuck up?"

Does anyone CONSCIOUSLY act like they're "better than everyone else?" I don't think so. I think those characterizations are subjective interpretations of someone else's behavior. They come from the observer's feelings of inadequacy, and have little or nothing to do with how most academic, literate, and educated people actually feel or act. Have you ever seen someone literally carrying his "nose in the air?" Neither have I. It's a red fucking herring; but it's those innocent cliches that cumulatively inhere in the American character a pride in being NON-educated, in hating intellectuals, in received "common sense" over earned intelligence. Fuck that shit.

I think it's the person watching the smart guy, feeling threatened by the smart guy's intelligence, who is creating this situation/conflict. What some people may interpret as arrogance may just be the normal way someone else thinks, talks, and does business - therefore, the "arrogant" guy is not the one with the problem. Maybe those so-called "regular folks" ought to start realizing that they own the problem, not the guy who worked his ass off getting those fucking degrees.

[Hannah Bell]

150. yes, people do act like they are better than others, based on whatever

criteria that are important to them.

& yes, it's often the arrogant guy who *does* have the problem.

[MedleyMisty]

167. I think it can be both

There are arrogant people who act like they're better than others, and there are people with inferiority complexes who project that on to other people and think that people are acting snobby when they're not. Both can be true.

[Hepburn]

175. Yes I do think some intentionally and knowingly act "stuck up."

The lady in question with the 1 year masters and doctorate puts on "airs" and you can see the change in personality when she goes into her "my shit don't stink mode."

[JVS]

249. Yes, I do think people put on airs. I've seen it too many times not to think so.

[sam sarrha]

125. in england they call the Corporate Talking heads "Readers".. not journalists.

[Echo In Light]

131. They could be referred to as Script Readers here, but are sadly considered "journalists."

[Optical.Catalyst]

126. K&R

[samplegirl]

128. My conclusion is the more educated

one seems to be the less common sense they seem to have. I can't stand a book smart person without a brain.

[DemBones DemBones]

137. Ah, another favorite cliche about education. The well-educated

don't have "common sense." Riggghhht.

[Scout]

184. some of them don't n/t

[Posteritatis]

246. A flaw which the non-well-educated obviously lack, right? (nt)

[Echo In Light]

142. Sometimes it isn't a case of not having common sense, but of having a mindset shaped via profession

Having a sharp focus in one area tends to create blind spots in others. And within some professions, or, specifically, within the educational systems and hoops jumped through before attaining that status, there are clearly distinct views/opinions/ways of perceiving things that are (unspoken) seen as either a gain or a loss, be it socially or professionally.

I suspect this is at play w/some of those known as "left gatekeepers" re matters of denying the existence of criminal conspiracy within the corporate/state nexus; it's that instilled sense of professionalism that makes data that casts negative light on the overarching, exalted social systems that's taboo and unseemly i.e. there can be a few "bad apples," but never criticize the overall system because they too want to succeed within those systems

[tclambert]

129. Al Gore read 648 pages?

Why, that's more than George Bush read in his entire life.

[Pacifist Patriot]

185. Or will ever read.

[Echo In Light]

132. Intelligence in America is only valued if it translates into making a lot of $

...or more importantly, wanting to make a lot of money.

[malaise]

155. 100% correct

There are people who hate those who seek knowledge for the sake of knowledge

[Echo In Light]

165. Yes. Unfortunately there are those

[blindpig]

140. It ain't so much education, it is Class.

As higher education is mostly the preserve of the better off this is not surprising. And as the better off often use their education and the positions it brings to benefit that class at the expense of the working class there is a case to be made.

For example, those well educated assholes who sent all of our good jobs overseas to increase their bottom line.

[Hannah Bell]

151. and it works both ways, some of the comments on this thread re the

supposedly ignorant uneducated aka unwashed exhibit no. 1.

[Dogtown]

152. I witnessed the degradation of the US university system

due to Viet Nam educational draft deferments. The deferments were intended to help rich white kids evade the draft whilst pretending at a just and equal conscription.

Colleges ramped up recruiting and lowered standards accordingly. Education became big business. Anyone that could afford tuition could buy a degree.

Of course, those with lower GPAs in the debased system were incapable of succeeding in their chosen fields but used their worthless degrees to secure elementary & secondary teaching posts. Reaganesque 'trickle-down' incompetence has followed.


CAVEAT: This post is based solely on personal observation. I am not an education-professional and can cite no authorities to back my opinions.

[NJmaverick]

159. Is there any wonder why America is losing it's edge?

then again I suspect the nation's best and brightest don't strive to work for the MSM.

[happygoluckytoyou]

163. you left out the GOP and their attacks on INTELEK-U-ALLs

[MedleyMisty]

172. If you want things to change

make education free and equal. Give everyone the same high quality education as kids and make higher education free to everyone who wants it.

As long as there's a price tag on higher education and huge differences between the education that rich white kids get, even in public schools, versus the education available in areas of concentrated poverty, you're going to have anti-intellectualism.

It's like that old Hank Williams Jr song - "A rich man goes to college; a poor man goes to work."

[Echo In Light]

176. The problem is varied as the "dumbing down" is rampant throughout the corporate pop culture

And inevitable as well. Even if education were "free and equal" one likely wouldn't notice significant changes in the short term if that free/equal education is framed within the current corporate culture, which shapes and guides the public mind. It goes back to Lippman's "manufacture of consent;" the establishment powers understood that to more effectively control the public mind, individuals needed to be managed and coerced more so in their time spent out and away from work/school.

[indigo32]

190. I think you have some very valid points

but... there are many ways to gain an education. School is only one way.

My thought is that we desparately need smart AND educated people. We have lifespans of 70+ years because of smart and educated people. I VALUE them greatly.

[blindpig]

177. But that's socialism

Not allowed. Anyway, who's going to do the dirt for all of those 'too good to get my hands dirty' schmucks?

Damn, next thing you know you'll be advocating egalitarianism, or something.

[anonymous171]

180. No, it's much easier to blame culture. That way the rich don't have to pay anything.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

186. My parents valued education above all.

My dad was a perfect example of one who became middle class through his service in World War II.

He was in the Army Air Corps before it was the Air Force -- a staff sergeant who was too valuable to go into combat on bombing runs. He scored in the top 1% in IQ and top 1% in mechanical aptitude in their tests.

He had two years of college earned during the Depression under hardship. One year at Ohio State. One year commuting from Houston to Texas A&M by HITCHHIKING 90 miles!!!!

Went to law school on the GI Bill after the war, became an attorney. We got a $9,000 house (a shitbox) on a 4% V.A. loan. But it made him a homeowner. He worked at a stinkin' refinery in Houston for THIRTY YEARS, starting at 54 cents an hour. He was a pipefitter and a proud member of the pipefitters local and the Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers Union.

I went to college for 12 years. Earned 3 separate degrees. AAS - vocational school, BA Biology - college, and a Juris Doctor (Five years of night school while working full time at the courthouse).

Mom had four years of college but didn't graduate.

I will not apologize for my brains or for my discipline and hard work getting those degrees. I have never gotten a job using my BA in pre-med or my law degree, so I don't know what good they have done as far as getting a job.

And I won't apologize for my vocabulary, either. Or for my interest in art and culture. And I'm not too good to work with my hands. I love cooking and gardening.

Retraining for somebody my age is total BS.

[MedleyMisty]

208. You do realize that today people don't have anything like the GI bill

or unions, or steady life-long manufacturing jobs that pay decently and probably came with good benefits.

I'm not denying that a few, even with the cards stacked as high as they are now, will come from poverty and go to college. But public policy shouldn't be based on an extremely lucky few.

Actually - isn't that story an argument for free education? After all, it was government support in the GI bill that allowed your father to go to college.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

209. Yes you are right.

Dad's pension from the refinery, after they took out the health insurance premium, was a whopping TWENTY DOLLARS A MONTH. Yes, after THIRTY YEARS, interrupted by the war.

[ninety lives]

229. My dad grew up poor

My father was downright poor when he was a kid, but he likes to read. I think some people are afraid of education because they don't feel like they
are a part of history or part of the culture.

[Uncle Joe]

189. I wonder if Laurie Kellman has any children in school and if so,

does she glorify or praise them to be ignorant?

If they have a test coming up and they study, would this garner punishment from her particularly if the teacher asked them if they read the book and they truthfully answered the question?

Could Laurie Kellman specifically and AP in general be so threatened by intelligence as to bring out their own latent immaturity?


Thanks for the thread, lame and thanks to mediamatters for their outstanding work.:thumbsup:

[Political Heretic]

191. Anti-intellectualism is as American as apple pie.

[Uncle Joe]

197. Yes, a poisoned apple pie laced with arsenic, all for the purpose of weakening

the American People's representative government by trashing the intelligent, dedicated and thoughtful while promoting or glorifying the ignorant, so that mega corporations can come between the people and their disabled government in order to run roughshod over the people turning them in to serfs.

Make no mistake about it, this isn't just an attack against Al Gore, this is a broadside against the very idea; that the American People deserve the best leadership in their government.

What this author truly represents is corporate supremacy over the American People.

[WoodyD]

200. Just last night I was rereading "Guards! Guards!"

by Terry Pratchett and ran across this passage. I thought, "I've got to post this somewhere on DU." This forum seems appropriate. A sinister and power-hungry man has formed a secret society and plans to use its none-too-bright members to help him conjure up a dragon so he can overthrow the government, restore the monarchy and become the power behind the throne. Where do novelists get these crazy ideas? (And what do you suppose Cheney did with the dragon?)

The guy in the book describes his followers thusly:

A bunch of incompetents no other secret society would touch with a ten-foot Sceptre of Authority. The sort to dislocate their hands with even the simplest secret handshake. But incompetents with possibilities, nevertheless. Let the other societies take the skilled, the hopefuls, the ambitious, the self-confident. He'd take the whining resentful ones, the ones with a bellyful of spite and bile . . . in which the floods of venom and vindictiveness were dammed up behind thin walls of ineptitude and low-grade paranoia. And stupidity, too.

I hadn't read this particular Pratchett for awhile and it was startling how much it reminded me of the crowds at the Palin rallies and the teabaggers. This is why they idolize Joe the Plumber. He's not stupid! He's the "salt of the earth," just like you! Now shut up and vote for us because our opponent is a smarty-pants!

[DissedByBush]

205. "It took me two transcontinental flights on United Airlines"

When did he stop flying on gas-guzzling private jets?

No, I don't believe in the modern-day indulgences known as carbon credits. You use less, or you don't, period.

[Mayor McCheez]

232. People always mock what....

they don't understand or comprehend. I myself find uneducated and unintelligent people (a.k.a. Freepers lol), an extreme bore to talk with. I prefer challenging and stimulating conversation even in disagreements. The Republicans love to dumb down our children, simply because it makes them easier to control. I have always taught my kids that school is not a social event, and to focus on what they can learn instead of who their friends are.

[The Wizard]

234. Knowledge

The forbidden fruit.

[cbc5g]

236. knowledgeable arrogance is far more annoying than ignorant arrogance

Sorry. You know ignorant people are stupid and just can't help it. But shame on those knowledgeable people who happen to flaunt it and look down on others. Those are the real fuckers.

[bikebloke]

238. I grew up in an anti-intellectual household.

I was yelled at for using "big words". For having common sense and thinking things through. They didn't want me going to school beyond high school (ego - it would make them look bad). Instead I paid my own way through a community college. That's why I prefer Europe's social democracy. A better chance of education. On his death bed, my father ranted against college education.

[cherish44]

239. Bush was someone people could "have a beer with"

The whole good 'ol boy Texan was a facade and a joke but of course he talked with a Texas accent and was just so folksy. He was in reality a blue blood and never had to work for anything in his life, everything was handed to him. (and everything he touched turned out to be disasater). Bush was hardly the pull-yourself-up-the-bootstraps hard-working self-made man everyone wanted to think he was. No that was Clinton. Oh and Bush had an Ivy League education...it has been noted that educated doesn't equal smart. Intellectual doesn't mean much either (in fact I can't stand some intellectual types, they have a very high opinion of themselves and seem to think of everyone else as idiots) I think Obama is appealing because he's a combination of educated and smart but he can talk to the average person in a "folksy" way they can relate to without them feeling he's talking down to them. I think Gore and Kerry were both very smart men, but I had serious doubts about them being able to win against Bush (let's face it, uneducated white people were the most powerful voting block in this country for a long time.) I'm not necessarily highly educated (I have a Bachelor degree from a state university), or overly intelligent (I have no idea what my IQ is but I was never in the gifted program so I assume I'm average), but I'm smart enough to know I wouldn't want one of my drinking buddies running the country.

[Echo In Light]

243. America loves synthetic culture, & the land of Make Believe. Hence the hatred of 'conspiracies'

[whathehell]

263. Average I.Q. is about 100...High Average is 110...Gifted starts at 130..

You could certainly be considered "smart" if your I.Q. is around 120 or so.

[JVS]

250. The well off already receive an amount of respect and deference that is threatening to social good.

I have serious doubts that "common" people feeling more beholden to a subgroup of that elite would be a positive development.