Schools drop Holocaust lessons

[cali]

Jeevan Vasagar
Monday April 2, 2007
The Guardian


Schools have avoided teaching the Holocaust and the Crusades in history lessons because they are concerned about causing offence to Muslim pupils or challenging "charged" versions of history which children have been taught at home, government research has found.
A report for the Department for Education and Skills found that a history department in a northern city had avoided selecting the Holocaust as a GCSE topic for fear of confronting "anti-semitic sentiment and Holocaust denial" among some Muslim pupils.

Another school decided to teach the Holocaust despite anti-semitic sentiment among students, but avoided the Crusades as "their balanced treatment of the topic would have directly challenged what was taught in some local mosques".
The report, Teaching Emotive and Controversial History, also revealed that one school was challenged by Christian parents for teachers' treatment of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

A DfES spokesman said: "It's up to schools to make a judgment on non-compulsory parts of the national curriculum. It is a broad framework and there is scope for schools to make their own decisions."

Teaching of the Holocaust is expected to become compulsory under the new national curriculum from next year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,,2048082,00.html#article_continue

I guess what this brings up is should the Holocaust be required subject matter. It also brings up how to present material to a diverse student body. How should the Crusades be taught? How should I/P be covered? Thorny stuff.

[trotsky]

1. Say whaaaaa...?

Almost sounds like really dark satire.

Teaching about the Holocaust (and Crusades) should happen at every school, everywhere. As the old and very true saying goes, "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

[hobbit709]

2. Nothing like denying history happened

Guaranteed to make history repeat itself.

[Jonathan50]

3. Should the holocaust in the Americas which started with Columbus be taught in the schools?

"nits make lice"

http://www.manataka.org/page161.html

On the early morning of November 29, 1864, Chivington's troops, led by the old mountain man, Jim Beckwourth, moved into position near Black Kettle's camp along Sand Creek. They were soon joined by over a hundred men of the Colorado First Regiment, followed by troops from Fort Lyon, led by Major Anthony. Rounding out the armed troops were four twin-gun howitzers. A hasty camp was made amid the two-foot snow drifts. No fire burned as the troopers hunkered down to a quick meal of maggot-infested hardtack. The men were tired, saddle sore, cold, nervous, and hungry.

Camped in the ravine were some six hundred Indians, primarily women and children, along with Lone Bear, White Antelope, Left Hand and Black Kettle. Chivington knew where Black Kettle's village was. Chivington, along with Governor Evans and Major Anthony had sent them there. He knew they were friendly and would not suspect a thing. He knew his force was larger, better armed and better equipped. Chivington, in all probability, planned his attack back in September, when Anthony told Black Kettle where to take his people. In this way, the forces at Fort Lyon would keep an eye on the Indians. In any case, Major Anthony had done his part; for better or worse. A victory would put Chivington in the forefront of any political ambitions he may have had. The mass hysteria of Denver, and favorable coverage by the Rocky Mountain News, supported any action Chivington was about to take.

The attack came at dawn. "Take no prisoners," Chivington ordered, adding his own slogan, "...nits make lice." The attack lasted over eight hours, becoming one of the worst acts of savagery that exists in records of Colorado history. When the first shots were fired by the troops, less than a hundred warriors ran up the creek bed and hastily dug pits to established a line of defense.

As a military operation, the battle was a horrible bungle. The surprised warriors, ill-armed, managed to hold their own and keep the soldiers at bay for nearly eight hours. Meanwhile, nearly five hundred Indians managed to escape across the prairie, including Black Kettle. Command was lost early in the day, fighting was confused, as soldiers were caught in their own crossfire.

Those Indians who could not flee the bloody insanity, died on the spot. Eye-witness testimony estimated the number just under two hundred, while Chivington would boast six hundred hostiles killed. Two thirds of the dead were women and children. White Antelope was among the first killed in the military fire. Once the firing began, he left his lodge with arms extended, in the traditional sign of peace. He was shot down in a single round of fire.

More:

[cali]

9. Certainly the history

of the extermination of Native Americans should be taught. And when my son was in elementary school a few years ago, they were taught it. No, it wasn't called a Holocaust, but I was impressed with the material presented.

[WinkyDink]

16. I highly recommend "Lies My Teacher Told Me", and agree with you. HOWEVER,

the Holocaust has living victims as well as liberators still, and as such, deserves its place in the curriculum---aside from its obvious historical significance.

These objections and capitulations show the threat of theocracy to knowledge.

[Raskolnik]

34. Um, yeah it should. Why is that relevant to the article? n/t

[Jonathan50]

46. Shows that not only the Nazis were into genocide..

Kids get the impression that the Nazis were some uniquely evil group.

These sorts of things have happened all throughout history.

Rome conquered Carthage, slew all the inhabitants and plowed under then salted the earth.

Now *that's* genocide!

"Kill them all. God will know his own." Arnold-Aimery 1209 CE

[cali]

51. Actually, I think

there was something rather unique about the Nazis: It was mechanization. Killing with the mentality of producing widgets. It wasn't done in the heat of battle. The killing of Jews, the disabled, the Roma and Gays, had nothing to do with conquer. That, of course, doesn't mean that schools don't have an obligation to teach their students that genocide is by no means relegated to Nazis.

[rman]

61. selfdelete

misplaced reply

[Jonathan50]

68. The trail of tears..

It starts about ten miles from my house.

http://ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html

In one of the saddest episodes of our brief history, men, women, and children were taken from their land, herded into makeshift forts with minimal facilities and food, then forced to march a thousand miles(Some made part of the trip by boat in equally horrible conditions). Under the generally indifferent army commanders, human losses for the first groups of Cherokee removed were extremely high. John Ross made an urgent appeal to Scott, requesting that the general let his people lead the tribe west. General Scott agreed. Ross organized the Cherokee into smaller groups and let them move separately through the wilderness so they could forage for food. Although the parties under Ross left in early fall and arrived in Oklahoma during the brutal winter of 1838-39, he significantly reduced the loss of life among his people. About 4000 Cherokee died as a result of the removal. The route they traversed and the journey itself became known as "The Trail of Tears" or, as a direct translation from Cherokee, "The Trail Where They Cried" ("Nunna daul Tsuny").

[cali]

70. Yes. I'll never forget how shocked my

kid was when he learned about this in fifth grade. It made a lasting impression on him, and changed the way he looked at history.

[Raskolnik]

60. That's not really accurate.

I fully agree that mass slaughters are fairly common in history, and genocides in and of themselves not unique. The Nazi's methodology, their philosophy, the Holocaust's relatively recent occurrence, the context of WWII, all set it apart from many (if not all) past slaughter/genocides.

[rman]

57. Biggest genocide of modern history - yes it should be taught

Estimates run in the 20 million.

[Pavulon]

139. Stalin killed that many folks..

not that the act is insignificant, just that the same thing happened in russia at the behest of one man.

[WinkyDink]

144. True, but that isn't part of American history; Nazism obviously is.

In too many ways, unfortunately.

[barb162]

161. Were Indian peoples not killing off other Indian peoples before Columbus.

I think they were. And in great numbers, they were enslaving and killing each other. Read some Aztec, Inca and many other aboriginal histories. The "holocaust" in the Americas was happening way before Europeans arrived.

[realisticphish]

167. The Erie Indians

were wiped out completely by the Iroquois long before Europeans landed.

I'm not saying that that justifies wiping THEM out, but it's just an example of people killing each other *gasp* without white people around.

[barb162]

168. I get your drift.

All I have to do is think of the Aztec "pyramids" where people were getting slaughtered by the thousands way before Europeans ever got to the Americas.

[realisticphish]

169. not to mention

that the aztecs weren't destroyed by the spanish. They were destroyed by other natives, incited by the spanish. Basically, they rebelled against their masters. Of course the spanish then enslaved THEM, so that's hardly better.

I guess it goes to show that NO ONE is squeeky clean :shrug:

[MrModerate]

4. So, feckless school adminstrators aren't just an American affliction . . .

Gee, "challenging what's taught in (mosque/church/synagogue)" -- can't have that, can we?

If you don't stand up to the zealots (be they Zionists, Christianists, or Islamic fundamentalists) your culture will fracture into a million pieces and your citizens will start blowing each other up on buses.

Wait, that's already happening . . .

[bryant69]

5. The fear of controversy is worse than the controversy itself these days

Not teaching the holocaust seems insane. I can understand wanting to duck the crusades a bit more, although I don't agree with it.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[RaleighNCDUer]

65. Why duck the crusades? That was a thousand years ago.

Just because the 'good guys' were the 'bad guys' and it gets confusing?

[bryant69]

66. By good guys I assume you mean Christians

and by bad guys I assume you also mean Christians.

And that goes to why I can understand not wanting to teach it - see also the Inquisition.

Again, let me make it clear, I think those things should be taught, I just can understand why a person might not want to.

Bryant

[barb162]

156. Cover the Muslim invasions of Europe, Mideast and Asia

and the Crusades.
Who are the good guys and bad guys again?

And cover a heck of a lot more than that!

[jwirr]

6. The holocaust was not anti Muslim and the Crusades should

teach a very important lesson, one we are learning all over again: Muslim nations do not welcome occupiers and they continue to fight to the death. When I read about the Crusades I saw not only the adventuresome Europeans but also the heroic Muslims fighting for their own country.

[WinkyDink]

19. Muslim nations were essentially allies of Nazi Germany; hence, their objections.

"...the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al-Husseini (by then expelled from Palestine),... on November 25, 1941, formally declared jihad against the Allied Powers."
http://www.answers.com/topic/middle-east-campaign-1

[jwirr]

23. Oops! Didn't know that. Thank you.

[Igel]

26. A bit more.

He also went through Bosnia and recruited Muslims for a couple of Muslim SS units whose primary role was pretty much confined to Serbia: maintaining Nazi rule there, fighting Serb Communists, rounding up Jews. Only late in the game--over the mufti's protests--were they hurled into the larger war.

He was also instrumental in the Arab revolt in the late '30s, fighting (and killing) Jews in Palestine, the fighting that spawned Irgun and other Jewish militias. (It's convenient, but wrong, to believe the I/P conflict only started in '47.) I believe that he's related to the current mufti at al-Aqsa.

[Malikshah]

56. One individual does not a "Muslim nations "= Nazi supporter make.

Palestinian leaders in the Mandate at the time disassociated themselves from him when it was learned what he did once kicked out of the mandate by the British after the Arab Revolt.

As for the topic-- these schools are flat out wrong wrong wrong and more wrong.

The Holocaust and Crusades should be part of any historical curriculum that covers the eras in which they took place.

[cali]

58. That's not entirely true.

Several Muslim nations were conquered by the Nazis. Aside from the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem , I can't think of too many others like him.

[AshevilleGuy]

165. There was Seyed Ayatollah Kashani of Iran

who tried to open up Iran to the nazis. He was head of the Chamber of Deputies (Majlis) later, when Mossadegh was Premier.

[barb162]

157. The Muslims invaded the Mideast and were occupiers when

tbe Crusaders came along. Read some basic history. How was it the Muslims' own country? Islam didn't even exist until the mid 7th century. Whose "country" was it before Islam was invented?

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Now that's just wrong.

Censorship of proven historical fact that can only help civilization by lessons of the past? How about the lessons that are to be taught about this horrific period of time concerning a targeted people and what would have happened if it hadn't been stopped?

This defies reason in light of the arguments in favor of suppression.

[DCKit]

8. Shut down the schools already and park the kids in front of the TV all day

At least they might accidentally stumble upon one of the educational channels and learn something for a change.

[annabanana]

13. heh . Just don't put it to the "History" channel.

No History there.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. Specially, this week --

It's all Jesus, all the time.

[daninthemoon]

17. Actually, parents should put the history/science channels on and

sit down with the kids. No matter how much history and science the schools do get around to teaching, there is always an endless amount more to learn. There are always new things on these channels that it's not even possible for textbooks to keep up. It is unfortunate that this artticle seems to indicate the schools are avoiding uncomfortable subjects, though. That's not the way to bring understanding between different groups.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. I don't see how teaching the truth about the crusades would have a

negative impact on the Muslim community.

A bunch of rich Europeans wanted to control the lucrative trade routes to the far east and trumped up a war, playing off the peasants' superstitions and religious hysteria.

Would they teach it differently to Muslims?

[Wilber_Stool]

14. If I remember what I was taught,

it was a noble cause designed to free Jerusalem from the terrine of Muslim oppression.
I had to find out the truth myself.

[AngryAmish]

29. How should the fall of Constantinople be taught?

A spontaneous uprising of the people of the city?

[otherlander]

110. Did you go to a private school?

[BlooInBloo]

11. You realize it's April *2*, right?

[Wilber_Stool]

12. This is ostensibly why

Viet Nam wasn't taught in schools. So many parent complaints that teachers were spending more time in parent conferences than in the classroom.

[Solly Mack]

15. Damn

Just damn...

[BayCityProgressive]

18. Europe is really bending over

and letting the Muslim Fundementalists fuck them. I am not so sure I would want to live there over here anymore..

[Solly Mack]

20. huh...ok

[barb162]

158. That's why some people

are calling it Eurabia these days. It's a sad and frightful situation; a lot of Europeans are running scared because of the Islamic fundies.

[Selatius]

21. Make the teaching of the Holocaust and the Crusades mandatory

The only way ignorance can be crushed is through the introduction of reason and facts. That cannot be true if you run away from the challenge. If anything, obliging the ignorance of students is the worst thing a school could do.

[daninthemoon]

22. And there were never any slaves, or lynchings, or church bombings,

or "the trail of tears", or Japanese internments, or "patriot act", or gitmo, or lies to get us into a war, or halliburton, or...

[cali]

24. What does that have to do with the poster's comments

And my kid certainly was taught about The Trail of Tears, and Japanese internment camps and the Patriot Act, for that matter- both in elementary school and HS. In fact, one of his texts in HS was Zinn.

Furthermore, the schools in question are in GB. I expect they would focus more on British HIstory than such topics as The Trail of Tears.

[genie_weenie]

25. Isn't this what History is about?

Doesn't everyone wish to cleanse their historical record?

Was there ever a time when America was not ruled by humans of European descent?
Did anything happen in Nanking in 1937CE?
Who lived in Iberia in the 600s CE?
What was the first (or second) name of Istanbul?
Albgiense Crusade? Armenia 1915CE? The Phillipines 1899-1913?

Who owns land? How long must a peoples exist in a certain area to be considered the "real" owners?

Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now controls the past
Who controls the past now controls the future
Who controls the present now?

[aikoaiko]

27. Political correctness gone terribly amuck again.

Every nation or culture has its historical blindspots, but thats not what this is.

[HockeyMom]

28. Holocaust Victim came to speak before my daughter's class

when she was in Public HS 5 years ago on Long Island. The man showed them his serial number branded on his arm.

The teacher told the kids we need the young people to see and hear these victims before it is too late, so the younger generation could be eye witnesses.

I once cared for a woman who had those serial numbers. If you have never seen this up close and personal, I can tell you it will send chills down your spine.

[DearAbby]

49. True.

I had an English Teacher, in Jr High School (before middle schools)who had a tatoo numbers on his arm. A fine man, great teacher. Never spoke of his experiences in class. Those numbers were enough. You are right, they did send chills all over.

We must never gloss over parts of history that embarrasses us, or shames us...the lesson untaught, will doom us to repeat them.

[progressoid]

30. BRILLIANT!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[ThatsMyBarack]

31. Sounds like those the powers that be at those schools....

....want to bury their heads in the sand and hide from the truth. :eyes:

[LeftishBrit]

32. These things need to be taught. They're part of history.

No religious group should be allowed to stifle the teaching of facts, whether historical or scientific.

Perhaps if everyone was more aware of the evil of the Holocaust, there would be less anti-semitism, and perhaps less racism of any sort, as this is a terrible example of what racism can lead to.

[ComerPerro]

33. sounds like scapegoating, there is no way either would offend muslims

[cali]

36. Alas, I think you're wrong.

There's plenty of Holocaust denial among Muslims. I see no reason to conclude that this has anything whatsoever to do with scapegoating. There's simply no evidence to support that.

[ComerPerro]

39. Well, for one thing, it says they received complaints from Christians too

for another, when you consider who committed the crimes, there is no reason muslims should be offended.

Also, a sentence a few paragraphs down is very telling: (Another School) avoided the Crusades as "their balanced treatment of the topic would have directly challenged what was taught in some local mosques".


What we might have is a Faux News style of "balanced teaching of the Crusades". You know, "It was the muslims fault that we Christians had to go in and slaughter them".

[cali]

42. Bigotry isn't a logical thing.

Even though Muslims, of course, had nothing to do with the Holocaust, the creation of Israel and Israeli policies over the years have intensified anti-semitism among Muslims, and in some cases, I suspect, Holocaust denial is a political reaction.

This wasn't a new poll, Faux or otherwise. It was conducted by the British Government.

[ComerPerro]

43. its just a claim made by school officials. No way of knowing their real motivations

[cali]

44. True enough n/t

[msmcghee]

108. I just had another one of those moments . .

. . where I had to ask if she really said that.

"Even though Muslims, of course, had nothing to do with the Holocaust, . . "

I know you've read about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the letters he wrote to Goebbels advising that the Jews not be allowed to leave Central Europe - that they should be kept in camps where they could be better "controlled". I know because you participated in those threads.

[cali]

117. Yes, yes the Grand Mufti

who was undoubtedly a vile raging anti-semite, but I fail to see how he was actually involved with the Holocaust. But let's say he was. If he was directly involved with the Holocaust, he was the exception and NOT the rule. Saying that Muslims were involved with the Holocaust is patently wrong. And how about naming someone other than the Grand Mufti?

[Behind the Aegis]

127. There were other Muslims involved in the Holocaust by proxy.

In Yugoslavia, a special SS force comprised of Muslims was created to gather up Jews. In occupied North Africa, there were a number of Jews turned over to the Nazi killing machine. There are other examples as well. That being said, there are also examples of great heroism among Muslims protecting Jews. Examples hail from Greece, France, Tunisia, and Morocco. Muslims, as a group, were not as involved with the Holocaust as others, but there are examples of great hate and compassion that many people do not know about.

[eridani]

146. Don't you go dissing our noble allies, now

The activity of Muslim-linked Nazis helped to consolidate the Albanian Muslim majority in Kosovo. Alia Itzbegovic of Bosnia, whom the US ambassador instructed to not sign the Lisbon agreement (very similar to the Dayton agreement we wound up with, only BEFORE the war) also was a Nazi collaborator.

[msmcghee]

141. I am not trying to make the case . .

. . that Muslims participated in a major way in the holocaust. But they did participate. You said, "Even though Muslims, of course, had nothing to do with the Holocaust, . . " and you just said, "Saying that Muslims were involved with the Holocaust is patently wrong."

Both your statements are wrong.

My purpose in pointing that out is not to pick on you. I think you are generally fair in your views. However, I do see a tendency in your posts to assign blame to Israel as the primary cause of bad things in the world . . like the creation of the Palestinian refugees in 1947 and 8 - when a very reasonable case can be made for a significant contribution from other parties.

And also, characterizing Muslims and Palestinians as having no possible culpability in events that they were actually up to their asses in. Like being allied with Nazi Germany enough so that the titular leader of Palestinian Arabs, the Grand Mufti, spent a good part of the war in Nazi Germany as pals of the Third Reich leadership. Wiki states that - The title of Grand Mufti refers to the highest official of religious law in a Sunni Muslim country.

Much of what he did there is unknown but we do know that he wrote several letters advising his friends on their "Jewish problem" and recommending the most inhumane treatment of Jews in Germany and Poland - esp. not allowing them to escape.

I admire your commitment to balance - but sometimes it does seem selective. When discussing the deaths of 6 million innocent people it is important to be careful when assigning (or relieving) blame. Some Muslims were actively involved with the holocaust. Involvement with such a terrible event should not be denied or whitewashed, no matter how insignificant IMO.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. There's plenty of holocaust denial among Christians too.

In fact, Christians started the whole business. The holocaust and the denial.

But you don't go around not teacing it because you're worried about offending Christians.

This reads like a hit piece againt muslims.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

86. What?

Sorry, that's a claim I think you'd have a hard time proving. Yes, there's Holocuast denial among Muslims, but I don't know that it's an ingrained element in certain parts of it. And there's still many Christians who deny the Holocaust.

[Bronyraurus]

95. Are you serious, Cali?

You don't think that it's a part of some strains of Muslim orthodoxy? I think that's about as controversial as saying that the belief that abortion is murder is a part of some Christian thought. Check out this poll of BRITISH Muslims: only 29% believe that the holocaust occurred. 29%! And those are Western Muslims! Where are they getting that notion from? It ain't Tony Blair.

http://www.ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

[cali]

104. That is a very interesting poll and

the number of British Muslims who deny the Holocaust is indeed, very distubing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

107. According to that poll...

Only 2% denied it happened, and 17% said it was exaggerated.

The rest either say it happened as is, had no comment, or didn't know what the poll was talking about.

I'd suspect you'd find the same numbers among christian american.

Of course, you left that part out.

[Bronyraurus]

109. All right,

so that means that 43% of the respondents in the poll either do not believe that the holocaust happened, that it was exaggerated, or are so unsure that they are unwilling to even say that it happened but was exaggerated. Another 23% apparently have never heard of this strange thing called "the holocaust" (and if you believe that...).

Still, only 29% are willing to say that the holocaust happened as it is reported. Is that a number you would boast about? Are you proud of that number, Bornagin? Good for the British Muslims, eh, because "you'd suspect you'd find the same numbers among christian Americans?"

What complete horseshit. I've posted some data to back myself up, now why don't you post some data that suggests that only 29% of US christians believe the holocaust happened as reported.

No? I thought not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. No...

It says that 2% say it didn't happen, and 17% say exaggerated.

You can't extrapolate what the other 81% are thinking.

Furthermore, you're exploiting the holocaust in order to justify to hatred to muslims. You're not just insulting a billion muslims, you're insulting the 6 million people who died in the holocaust.

Chew on this:

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n3/holodeni.html

[Bronyraurus]

115. You're a real card, Born.

"Furthermore, you're exploiting the holocaust in order to justify to hatred to muslims. You're not just insulting a billion muslims, you're insulting the 6 million people who died in the holocaust."

This subliterate jewel is too stupid to even argue with, but I'm bored. You cannot find anything in my posts that shows a hint of hatred of Muslims. You can find criticism of radical Muslims, but they're not the same thing, are they, Borny? And I don't see how validating the fact of the holocaust somehow insults its victims.

But you know what does insult the victims of the holocaust? You know, don't you, Borny? Defending demented fundamentalists who deny that it ever happened.

Happy trails, pal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

116. You're using the holocaust...

in order to justify hatred of an entire group based on their religion.

That's an insult to not only the six million jews who died because of their religion in the holocaust, that's an insult to every thinking human being.

Shame on you.

[Bronyraurus]

118. You're full of it.

Calling someone a bigot is the last refuge of a moron.

I'd ask you to quote anything anti-Muslim that I have said, but there's no point because I haven't said anything anti-Muslim.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Ah, how ironic.

"Calling someone a bigot is the last refuge of a moron."

You started out in this thread calling muslims bigots.

"I'd ask you to quote anything anti-Muslim that I have said, but there's no point because I haven't said anything anti-Muslim."

Except for the post that's been deleted.

[Bronyraurus]

130. Then I'll repeat it for you

I wrote that holocaust denial is an ingrained element in some schools of Muslim thought. That's all I wrote, and it's not in the least bit bigoted.

It is pathetic when someone who considers themselves a liberal cannot recognize and enthusiastically condemn bigotry and tyranny, especially when it is so blatant and obvious. In fact, I will go this far: you are not a liberal. And offering some mealy-mouthed criticism while saying "but everyone else does it too!" won't cut it, Bornagin.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. LOL

"It is pathetic when someone who considers themselves a liberal cannot recognize and enthusiastically condemn bigotry"

But Brony, that's exactly what I am doing.

"In fact, I will go this far: you are not a liberal."

Yes, and I'm sure you're a lifelong democrat who's very concerned.

:rofl:

[Bronyraurus]

133. I don't think you can be reasoned with

If you think that condemning the condemnation of bigotry is itself condemning bigotry, then you're hopeless.

I haven't said anything bigoted, so what can you condemn? I've asked you to point it out and show how it is bigoted, and I even helped you by reminding you what my initial comment was.

You cannot do it. You have failed. Good day, sir.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. Who are you trying to kid?

[Bronyraurus]

136. Excellent, info-packed riposte!

Please, continue to prove my point that you have absolutely no argument to make. How about another sarcastic one-liner? Or maybe a smiley face with rolling eyes!

[cali]

119. Nonsense. You're the one being offensive

with your false accusations. You are so full of something seething.

It was a pleasure to see you get your ass handed to you. And believe me, you did.

You made a serious and unfounded accusation.

The shame is on YOU.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. I got my ass handed to me?

When? Where?

[WiseButAngrySara]

126. Did you mean to post to someone else here? Confused. ....n/t

[Bronyraurus]

97. And of course

there are Christians who deny the holocaust. There are dipshits everywhere and in every group. In that same poll I quoted above, it says that a larger-than-you'd-think minority of British non-Muslims think that the holocaust was exaggerated, but it's still a minority, not the 71% of British Muslims who think that the holocaust was either exaggerated or NEVER HAPPENED.

I can't believe my above post was deleted; I just backed up what I said with incontrovertible fact. Is it really against DU rules to say that SOME Muslims deny the holocaust?!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. That's absolutely untrue.

It's islamophobic bullshit.

[cali]

88. So what do you think

of post #63 and #72?

[Bronyraurus]

99. It's not

Look at the poll I posted above and another one here of Israeli Arabs. A third of the most educated Israeli Arabs believe that the holocaust did not happen.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/121882

[Raskolnik]

37. I don't believe the concern is Muslims taking offense

The issue appears to be that the school anticipated that a small (but vocal) subset of people would use the topic as a platform for their anti-semitism, and the school chose to drop the topic rather than confront the views.

Pretty f'd up, if you ask me.

[cgrindley]

38. Sorry but you're wrong

The political situation in the UK is that teaching the Holocaust would be seen as an affront to Muslims, as would any attempt to actually contextualize the mutually agressive historical confrontation between Islam and Christianity in the Middle Ages.

[ComerPerro]

40. like you would know. That's like saying the political climate in the US

is that Republicans and the President really, really, sincerely and truly want to help and support the troops, but the Democrats, who hate the military, want to cut the troops off, leave them in harms way, and let them die.

[cgrindley]

45. Jeez, have YOU lived there?

Because I did live there for 4 years in the late 1990's. I visit regularly.

There are huge problems with the influence of radical Islam in the UK. You can try to deny it, but it's still true.

[ComerPerro]

47. A lot of people live in the US and still believe the RW talking points.

[cgrindley]

64. Be specific

which ones?

[Raskolnik]

52. I may not have made my position clear:

I understand that the concern was with the more radical portion of Muslims in the UK, but I do not think it is a matter of "offending" that particular group, but instead a desire to avoid the provocation. Neither justification is adequate, but I do think it is a meaningful distinction.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

91. That isn't true at all.

In fact, teaching of the Holocaust will soon become mandatory. While there may be certain elements within the UK (not just Muslims) who do not like this for various reasons, it is about to be universally taught, and issues such as this will not occur.

Yes, there are problems with Islamic extremism in Britain, which have been made significantly worse by its participation in the Iraq war. However, your assertion that "The political situation in the UK is that teaching the Holocaust would be seen as an affront to Muslims" is incorrect. The schools in question are the exception, rather than the rule. The vast majority of Muslims living in Britain are reasonable people who are capable of studying history in a studious manner, without all of this bullshit. Granted, there is a small, extremely vocal minority who do not fit this definition, but they have become increasingly marginalized after the 7/7 bombings. The situation is not perfect, as both the bombings and the incidents mentioned in the article make clear, but neither is the situation dire.

[LeftishBrit]

128. Great post!

While there are some Muslim extremists in Britain, they are a small minority.

Holocaust denial exists, among Muslims and others, but the official Muslim line in Britain does not deny the Holocaust, or wish to prevent it being taught in schools. What HAS been an issue is the Muslim Council of Britain's attempt to get 'Holocaust Day' replaced by a more 'inclusive' 'Genocide Day', which would include remembrance of other genocides, including those involving Muslims. This did lead to tension between Muslim and Jewish groups, especially with regard to the commemoration of the 60th anniversary of the Holocaust in 2005. It looks as though the Muslim Council of Britain may be rethinking this policy. But actual denial of the Holocaust has never been officially promoted.

Very recently, there have been some very hopeful signs of increasing dialogue between Muslim and Jewish groups. Here is a
link to a very interesting article on the subject:

www.ejpress.org/article/15269


Education authorities and schools in Britain are not on the whole very accepting of any religious groups' attempts to dictate the content of instruction in subjects such as history and science, and for the most part religious groups do not attempt to do so here. Of course there are exceptions; but it seems to be less accepted and also less demanded than appears to be the case in some parts of the United States.

[barb162]

160. The article clearly states Muslims taking "offense"

"A report for the Department for Education and Skills found that a history department in a northern city had avoided selecting the Holocaust as a GCSE topic for fear of confronting "anti-semitic sentiment and Holocaust denial" among some Muslim pupils."

[Bronyraurus]

71. Is that a joke?

Muslims in the Middle East are taught that the holocaust never happened. Iran just had an international conference about it, for Christ's sake, complete with a presentation by David Duke. When people who believe this shit emigrate to the West, they bring these prejudices with them.

Pull your head out of the sand. Europe continues to appease radical Muslim a-holes at its own risk.

[ComerPerro]

75. yeah, thats right. Only Muslims are Holocaust deniers. My bad. I forgot

In fact, weren't the Nazis muslim?

[Bronyraurus]

77. What kind of a response is that

Try addressing the substance of my message instead of throwing up an idiotic strawman. If you can.

[ComerPerro]

89. point is, radical islam is a terrible thing, no doubt about it

but how come just about every time I hear about the sins and evils of radical Islam, it always comes from people willing to overlook the same sins among Christians in this country? Shouldn't they be cleaning their own house first?

[Bronyraurus]

102. You're not talking about me

I'm not a Christian. And what you said is a diversion from the subject of the OP. This isn't a thread about Xtians denying the holocaust. If you want to talk about it, post on it and we'll have a high old time denouncing them too. Really, who "overlooks" the same sins among Christians in this country? Does anyone, ANYONE defend Christian holocaust deniers on this board?

What you are engaging in is a reflexive defense of lunatic extremists, and lord knows why you're doing it.

[ComerPerro]

113. what I want to see is actual proof that its becasue of muslim protests

there have been cases here in the US where schools have announced that they are going to not teach something, or ban something, to avoid offending muslims. But when pressed for documentation of protests by muslims, the school could produce nothing. It was just a group trying to stir up angry, anti-islamic, anti-PC nonsense.

And that's what I am attacking.

For you to say that I am reflexively defending Islamic extremists is like saying that by opposing Bush you are supporting terrorists.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

93. The question is not how to appease them.

Muslims in Europe are here, and they are here to stay. While some institutions, like the schools in question, go too far towards respecting a religion-based (rather than factually-based) approach to history, this is not a widespread problem. The Muslims are here, whether white, Christian Europe wants them to be here or not. Most of them are not anti-semitic lunatics, though they do tend to have an extremely negative view of Israeli foreign policy. Europe is not being invaded by brainwashed barbarian hordes from the East. A lot of the Muslims in Europe moved here to escape the nonsense perpetrated by the governments of their home countries.

I don't see any of this as an attempt at appeasement, even if it is political correctness gone amok. There are growing pains associated with absorbing any group of individuals into a new society. Taking a hard line against Islam would be a disaster for Europe. Integration is the solution. The problems come in the implementation - the details, as is the case here.

Anyway, as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, this particular issue won't exist a year from now because teaching of the Holocaust will be mandatory.

[Bronyraurus]

103. I generally agree

Integration is the solution, and there are growing pains when absorbing a group into a society.

But caving in to crazies and holocaust deniers for fear of upsetting them shouldn't be a part of that accomodation.

[Hatalles]

96. "Muslims in the Middle East are taught that the holocaust never happened."

This is a blatantly false statement and unfortunately typical of the dangerous generalizations constantly made about the "Middle East."

Of course there are some who deny the Holocaust ever happened, but I would argue that the large majority of people do indeed believe it happened (and then perhaps there may be a minority who have not even heard/learned about it) -- the crucial point is that many of them feel that the Holocaust was unjustly used to bring about the creation of Israel, which has led to the mistreatment of the Palestinians. Although I don't agree with it, I think there is also a belief prevalent among some that the Holocaust has been used to silence criticism of Israel -- that it's been used as an excuse to overlook or ignore injustices committed by the government of Israel.

So, bottom line: I don't think it's a matter of people in the Middle East not believing that the Holocaust ever happened. It's a problem with how many of them perceive it's been used.

[cali]

98. Good post.

There's actually quite a bit of polling on this issue. Some supports your theory. Some doesn't. But clearly a significant amount of people in the mid east who deny the Holocaust, do so because of I/P.

[Bronyraurus]

106. Sure, but they are separate issues

I think that many in the US, and many on this board, both accept the fact of the holocaust and oppose Israel's actions in the ME. They really have nothing to do with one another. Is your argument that Muslims are too stupid/emotionally invested to separate the issues (rhetorical question, I know that that's not your argument, but I'm making a point).

You can oppose everything Israel does and still acknowledge that the Germans tried to kill them all between 1942-1945.

Muslims are smart enough to grasp that concept. They just really believe that it didn't happen.

[Hatalles]

114. You mean "some" Muslims, right? nt

[Bronyraurus]

120. Correct

[Bronyraurus]

105. It is utterly accurate

Here's a fun logical syllogism that smashes your above statement:

1) A significant portion of Middle Eastern Muslims believe that the holocaust never happened. Not that it was "misused," or that it is an "excuse," but that it NEVER HAPPENED. (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/121882), for starters. Also, see the Iran conference on the holocaust.

2) To believe that particular historical theory, you must either be taught or do your own research into German records, chemicals used in gas chambers, etc...

3) Your man on the street in Ramallah has not done that research.

Therefore, 4) Most of the people who deny that the holocaust ever took place were TAUGHT.

Furthermore, 5) My statement (Muslims in the ME are taught that the holocaust never happened) is precisely, factually accurate.

I would LOVE to hear your refutation of that.


EDITED: Nowhere have I said, or do I believe, that ALL or MOST Muslims are taught this or believe it. But you knew that because you read my posts.

[Hatalles]

112. Are we playing word games?

Using your argument, I could say "Jews are murderers." If someone would object to that statement, I would respond and say "Nowhere did I say ALL or MOST Jews are murderers." What is your point... or do you even have one?

You claim that you do not believe that ALL or MOST Muslims are TAUGHT or BELIEVE that the Holocaust never happened yet you state that there is a significant portion of ME Muslims that believe the holocaust never happened. What is your definition of "significant"?

By the way, the poll you cited in your link states that 28% of ISRAELI ARABS believe the Holocaust never happened.

I'm arguing that the majority of (ME Muslims) do believe it happened. Am I wrong?

[Bronyraurus]

122. I have no idea

You attacked my post and I defended it. To say that Muslims are taught in the Middle East that the holocaust never happened is a perfectly true statement. It's not a word game. You called bullshit, and I proved you wrong. Not much more to say.

[Hatalles]

124. Correcting a generalization.

I'm sorry if it came off as an "attack" -- I don't believe it was one and I certainly didn't intend it to be. In fact, I viewed my post as a defense in response to an unfair and dangerous generalization you made. If you go over the posts, I think it's pretty clear who's been more confrontational here.

You haven't proved anything here. I think I've succinctly demonstrated how your argument doesn't hold water. The posts speak for themselves.

[Bronyraurus]

125. You just didn't like how it sounded

But it's certainly true. You called my statement "blatantly false." I proved that it's blatantly true.

Look, if someone asked you, "Are Muslims in the Middle East taught that the holocaust never happened?" If the fact is that a lot of Muslims in the ME are taught this, then the answer to that question is "yes."

It's not a happy situation, and it's not fun to think about, but it's true. You seem to be more concerned with offending or criticizing Muslims than actually telling (or learning) the truth, which is precisely what is wrong with the situation that the OP describes. Good liberals don't have to hide uncomfortable facts; the facts speak for themselves.

(Good liberals also shouldn't have any truck with holocaust deniers. Didn't think I'd have to point that out here...)

[Hatalles]

129. Passing a generalization off as truth

You proved your statement is "true" in the same way a Holocaust denier might prove that "Jews are taught that it is acceptable to kill Muslims and purposely steal and settle on their land in Israel" only because it applies to some extremist elements. Good liberals see the "uncomfortable fact" acting as a generalization here and would take offense, and would correct it.

This wouldn't have been an issue had you accurately and fairly characterized ME Muslims... yet you insist on repeating that they are taught that the Holocaust never happened. I know you see the generalization being made... and I hope you begin reevaluating some of the statements you make in the future.

What I'm concerned with is loose language that fuels an increasingly dangerous discourse which treats Muslims as a monolithic group... which in turn fuels more war and more hate. I am concerned about a second Holocaust in the West.

(Good liberals also shouldn't have any truck with Islamophobic neo-con warmongers.)

[Bronyraurus]

132. Your "monolithic" point is taken

and I never said, nor did I mean, that Muslims monolithically believe that the holocaust never happened.

Certainly my words could be twisted to mean something I didn't intend, for the purpose of demonizing Muslims. But I don't care about that because that's not what I'm doing.

THe difference between my statement and the Jewish settler statement you make above is that I believe that Muslims are systematically taught holocaust denial in some areas/sectors of Muslim society in the Middle East, on a large scale. I do not believe that Jews are taught to kill Muslims and steal their land on a large scale. There is a big, yawning difference, and it's moral blindness to deny it.

[Hatalles]

142. Well...

... let's say we're in a discussion on DU on the topic of I/P and I state that "Jews are taught that it is acceptable to kill Muslims and purposely steal and settle on their lands." Of course, I don't think that the majority of Jewish people believe or are even taught this, but if I were to say this, shouldn't I care about how those words are contributing to an anti-semitic discourse (and an anti-semitic environment)... even if I didn't intend them to?

I just wish you would concede that you made a mistake in stating that Muslims believe the Holocaust never happened. You have already elaborated on your views in other posts since then -- stating that you don't believe that all or most Muslims are taught or believe Holocaust denial, and that Muslims shouldn't be treated as a monolith.

Like I said, I am concerned with loose language and generalizations because I'm well aware of the dangerous effects they have in the long term.

[Bronyraurus]

149. I really don't think so

One reason is that I don't see any possible negative effect here, on this message board, which is presumably not populated by racists, religious bigots, etc... I think to people on this board, the plain meaning of my language is clear.

Secondly, I think that the benefit of telling the truth about what's going on in the Middle East, on any side, outweighs the risk of causing offense. What, really, are the "dangerous effects" that telling the truth can have in the long term? Muslims are taught some crazy shit over there, and it's widespread. Like I said, an uncomfortable truth, but a truth nonetheless.

[Hatalles]

155. You erred.

I personally know Muslims from the ME that were NOT taught that the Holocaust never happened. Even you have stated that you do not believe that most Muslims in the ME are taught or even believe that the Holocaust never happened. So, clearly, we are in agreement that there are Muslims in the ME who are NOT taught (nor do they believe in) Holocaust denial.

However, you persist in repeating that "Muslims in the ME are taught the Holocaust never happened." Don't you see the inconsistency here? Your statement would have been accurate had you said "some Muslims" but that is not what you said. Instead, you used loose language to make a generalization about Muslims and insist on not conceding that you made a mistake -- your argument being that because some Muslims are Holocaust deniers, the statement you made is true. I've already demonstrated why that argument doesn't hold any water. It's "true" in the same way the statement "Jews are murderers" is "true" -- they're both inaccurate statements, loose language, and generalizations.

You also made the same mistake above (in response to cali); in which, you corrected yourself by acknowledging you meant to say "some Muslims."

You may not think the language you use in writing about Muslims has an effect on DU -- but it's my experience that every little loose statement made about Muslims or any other minority or marginalized group adds up. I'd like to think DUers or liberals in general are more enlightened than most people, but I know better than that. We can be just as susceptible to bad information, making dangerous generalizations, and contributing to an increasingly xenophobic environment as the average CNN/FOX watcher.

[barb162]

159. Do you think they are taught it at all?

What do you make of the Holocaust denial conferences?
http://www.adl.org/holocaust/introduction.asp

"Holocaust denial, which its propagandists misrepresent as "historical revisionism," has become one of the most important vehicles for contemporary anti-Semitism. It is the invention of a collection of long-time anti-Semites and apologists for Hitler.

. . .
During the fall semester of 1997, Bradley Smith, "director" of the self-styled "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust," (CODOH) launched a new salvo in his continuing propaganda campaign to deny the reality of the Holocaust. He is attempting to place an ad in college newspapers around the country that promises $50,000 to anyone "convincing a national television network to air" a ninety minute video that attempts to show the universally accepted account of Nazi genocide is false. The ad is clearly a ploy. Smith must know his money is safe because no TV network would broadcast such a video.

snip"

[Hatalles]

164. Yes, "some" are.

But that isn't the point of the above discussion.

[Marie26]

147. Have they actually received complaints from Muslims?

This is a very important point & it seems like people are overlooking it. The article doesn't mention, anywhere, that this was a response to complaints from the Muslim community. Instead, it seems like the British administrators took it upon themselves to decide what Muslims would be offended by.

[ComerPerro]

148. thank you, that was exactly my point

[Little Wing]

35. Ridiculous

[gulfcoastliberal]

41. European anti-semitism didn't begin with Nazis; it's thousands of years old.

Pogroms, inquisitions, etc. As late as the 19th century the Catholic church condoned kidnapping Jewish children to be raised by Catholic "parents". It's a continental phenomenon.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

69. That's just justification for murderous bigotry. I prefer

to chalk it up to your lack of knowledge on the subject. The fact that Jews were persecuted throughout Europe had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that a small minority of them were money lenders. One of the major reasons they were money lenders was because they had so few other options. They were allowed to enter very few occupations, not allowed to own land, etc. The primary cause of anti-semitism in the middle ages in Europe was religious.

I trust after being informed, you will gladly retract your statement.

Here's a bit from Wiki"

Antisemitism was widespread in Europe during the Middle Ages. In those times, a main cause of prejudice against Jews in Europe was the religious one. Although not part of Roman Catholic dogma, many Christians, including members of the clergy, held the Jewish people collectively responsible for the death of Jesus, a practice originated by Melito of Sardis. Among socio-economic factors were restrictions by the authorities. Local rulers and church officials closed the doors for many professions to the Jews, pushing them into occupations considered socially inferior such as accounting, rent-collecting and moneylending, which was tolerated then as a "necessary evil".<26>During the Black Death, Jews were accused as being the cause, and were often killed.<27> There were expulsions of Jews from England, France, Germany, Portugal and Spain during the Middle Ages as a result of antisemitism.

Starting in the 12th century and continued up through the 19th century, there were Christians who believed that some (or all) Jews possessed magical powers. Some believed they had gained these magical powers by making a deal with the devil.

During the Middle Ages, the story of Jephonias,<28> the Jew who tried to overturn Mary's funeral bier, changed from his converting to Christianity into his simply having his hands cut off by an angel.<29>


A 15th century German woodcut showing an alleged host desecration. In the first panel the hosts are stolen; in the second the hosts bleed when pierced by a Jew; in the third the Jews are arrested; and in the fourth they are burned alive.On many occasions, Jews were accused of a blood libel, the supposed drinking of blood of Christian children in mockery of the Christian Eucharist. Jews were subject to a wide range of legal restrictions throughout the Middle Ages, some of which lasted until the end of the 19th century. Jews were excluded from many trades, the occupations varying with place and time, and determined by the influence of various non-Jewish competing interests. Often Jews were barred from all occupations but money-lending and peddling, with even these at times forbidden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

79. No it's not a plausible cause for distrust, etc. It's bullshit.

You wrote that anti-semitism was not without cause, that it was due to Jews lending money at high interest rates. Did you not read what I wrote and posted. Because of anti-semitism, Jews had few vocations that they could legally enter into. This is not a chicken or egg conumdrum. The bigotry came first. Any prejudice supposedly arising out of Jews lending money, was just another excuse to hate and persecute Jews. During the middle ages, Jews most often lived in Ghettos, and were broadly discriminated against- and much worse.

Your comments are simply unvarnished anti-semitism. I know I should have alerted on your first post about this, but I thought perhaps explaining it to you would have a felicitous result. Clearly not.

That you believe such utter crap is truly sad.

[Lurking Dem]

83. It's worse than that.

Jews were not allowed to live in various European cities unless they supplied X number of money-lenders.

[cali]

84. I didn't know that.

I'm just so appalled that a DUer would state that anti-semitism in the middle ages was the fault of the Jews themselves, and then, upon having it explained in a civil manner, would stubbornly cling to blaming them.

Things that make me want to take a shower.

[Lurking Dem]

85. Welcome to my world.

I still love the South but living here can be sometimes.....vexing. I recommend this:



Nice and easy on the skin.

[Lurking Dem]

80. The Torah does not forbid it.

But the truth is much deeper than that.

MONEY-LENDERS

If one were a reasonable Christian listening to one's Church fathers speak of the Jews, one might quite naturally conclude that such a people had no place in a decent society.

And this is a conclusion that was drawn over time.

Around the first millennium, we see the rise of the Christian trade guilds from which Jews were pointedly excluded. No more Jewish goldsmiths and silversmiths and glass-blowers. Jews were also excluded from owning land, holding office, and from being doctors and lawyers.

Jews were forced to wear a "distinguishing garment" -- either a badge or a sign or a silly-looking hat -- which set them apart. This was not only to make them look different but also to humiliate them.
Jews were forced to wear a "distinguishing garment": either a badge or a sign or a silly-looking hat.

Then, beginning in 1123, when the bishops of the Church undertook a series of meetings -- called Lateran Councils -- to decide Church policy, the Jews were assigned a new function in Christian society.

Along with a decree that priests must be celibate, the bishops decided that Christians were not allowed to lend each other money. (This came from a misunderstanding of Biblical commandment that forbids one from charging one's brother interest when making a loan.)

As for the Jews, the bishops promulgated a doctrine decreeing them servants of Christians, and then assigning to them the degrading task of lending money -- called usury -- with which the Christians were forbidden to sully their hands.

The bishops were not stupid. They knew that you have to charge interest to have banking, and you had to have banking to have economic development, otherwise there is no growth and your economy stagnates. Someone had to lend money. And that someone, the bishops decided, would be the Jews.

What happened next is that Jews were not allowed to live in various cities in Europe, unless they supplied a certain number of money-lenders.

However, lending money was a very precarious job. For one, it engendered a lot of animosity. After all, who likes to pay back loans?

And what happened if the local nobleman or bishop decided not to pay you back? He'd accused the Jew of doing something terrible -- like killing a Christian baby. That way he could renege on his loans, confiscate all Jewish property, and then expel or even kill the Jews.

This happened over and over again.

Some have claimed that it was Jewish money-lending practices that engendered such actions and, indeed, were responsible for a great deal of anti-Semitism. This is a total myth. At that time Jews charged an average interest rate of 45% on loans. And while this may seem high by today's standards, consider that the Lombards, the Christian Italian bankers living under the nose of the Vatican, charged rates as high as 250%. So we see that the Lombard money-lending practices were many times worse and yet no one went around persecuting Lombard bankers.

Persecutions of the Jews, on the other hand, knew no bounds.

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_46_-_Blood_Libel.asp

[Name removed]

150. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

90. So I'm allowed to hate my banker? Cool!

I mean, she's just a well-meaning immigrant from Spain, but shit, I never thought of it that way. :eyes:

[cali]

92. LOL!

But then again, she's probably just a minion of the Jewish Banker who really runs things.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

94. I'm pretty sure my bank is run by upper-class British tossers...

...but who knows who *they* work for. If I'm lucky it's just the masons.

[mmonk]

48. Never drop the lessons of history.

[Javaman]

50. Personally, I think it doesn't have a thing to do with offending the

Muslim pop. I think it has everything to do with the elimination of critical thinking and kids linking those two major events with morons* stupidity and the wars he's* has started against the Muslims and the wholesale killings his* administration has committed.

[cali]

54. That is extremely far fetched.

This is in England, not the U.S. And yes, there are clashes of culture ongoing in GB.

[Javaman]

67. ahhh, but I'm a very far fetched person. ;)

duh, didn't know it was to do with England. My bad. :spank:

[cali]

81. Yeah, I kind of thought you

didn't initially catch that it wasn't about the U.S. Hey, we all make those kinds of mistakes from time to time.

[Bronyraurus]

74. That's the dumbest post I've read all day

I don't know how to address it.

[Javaman]

78. perhaps you would address it by reading further down the post for

my apology and obvious stupidity, instead of posting a self aggrandizing comment. :)

Have a truly smashing day.

[Bronyraurus]

82. Gotcha

Everyone makes mistakes!

[rman]

153. You think the RW is not attempting, would not benefit from dumbing down

the people?

"No Child Left Behind"

teaching creationism in science class.

Who was it that said that the fact the many academics become liberals proves that one can have to much of a good thing (education)?

Just the very reason given for not teaching about the Holocaust is beyond idiotic. Following that reasoning, hardly anything can be taught in school. So it's obviously not the real reason.

[TZ]

59. ah yes lets avoid all the "controversies".

Who needs to think for themselves.:sarcasm:
Scary point on why this is partly due to anti-semitism: Here in blue MD about 20 years ago there was an English teacher who several times publically praised Hitler. My sister, whom he knew was Jewish, could never get a grade from him better than a C. As my mother was an English teacher and we are all good writers and students and so this was blatant prejudice. The man was the head of the Gifted and Talented program at our high school. My sister had to transfer to a different high school where her English grades were at worst B's and by far the majority were A's. They made the guy apologize once or twice but that was it. He retired in good standing a few years ago.

[rman]

62. Just to be safe: don't teach anyone anything -

some people are bound to be offended by some aspect of past or present reality.

What was that slogan again?
"Ignorance is strength"

[Rex]

76. What's the matter? Don't want children learning about how horrible

their elders and ancestors can be? What crap. I pulled no punches when I taught World History. Teens have the right and we have a duty to teach them the truth.

[SoCalDem]

100. Why am I not surprised?

I suppose they should also stop teaching about Columbus & Henry VIII too.

Before long, there will BE no history left to teach. :grr:

[WindRavenX]

101. Let's just stop teaching history all together.

Anything that offends *anyone* is clearly unacceptble to be taught.

Evolution? Offensive to creationists.

Science? Why, science is the religion of atheists!

English? Too much smut and free thinking.

[ms liberty]

135. This is really not a good thing at all...

The Holocaust should be taught in every school everywhere; it seems ludicrous to think that it would not be. I think the Crusades should be required too. What is the harm in teaching both sides of it? Why can't they teach other viewpoints, and teach the kids how to think for themselves?

[frazzledmom]

137. ...

:popcorn:

I never believed half the crap they taught me in school anyway.

[Swamp Rat]

138. Teaching of the Holocaust should be mandatory in all schools, at least from

middle school on up. University world history course curricula should always include the Holocaust, as well as other examples of genocide like Manifest Destiny, et al.

[Marie26]

140. Have they actually received complaints? nt

[halobeam]

143. My 10th grade son just watched Schindler's List in class.

Major important IMO.

[slackmaster]

154. Great film for a history class!!!

Kudos to your son's teacher for having such good taste in cinema.

I hope the kids weren't all bored because it's in black and white.

[CGowen]

145. I think they should do a better job, it's not detailed enough

IBM and Holocaust, Prescott Bush, Brown Brothers Harriman, Thyssen and the whole


New World Order agenda

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StdwfRlleFU

[DFW]

151. Here in Germany

Where I am based when overseas,

My two daughters went to a German elementary school. It is named the Anne-Frank Schule.
It was so named because the building was the former area Gestapo HQ, and the people
wanted to do a little something to rile the ghosts of the past residents. The kids,
many of whom are the children of Muslim immigrants, learn all about Anne Frank and
the Holocaust. This is required learning in all German schools (the Holocaust, not
concentrating on Anne Frank).

Maybe that's why the tiny Neo-Nazi movement in Germany is treated with such disgust by
such a large portion of the population. Too bad it isn't required everywhere. Not to
protect one group, necessarily, but to show what can happen when an evil movement
captures the imagination of a large portion of the population, and why such groups
need to be stopped before they gain power, no matter how seductive their message.

[barb162]

162. Excellent news!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

152. This goes far too far, and for the wrong reasons.

FWIW, I think that there *is* a serious problem in history teaching here in the UK, at any rate, in that it focusses far too much on 20th century history and European history, and in particular on WWII, and does not spend enough time on more distant periods or cultures.

But not teaching children about the Holocaust at all is going too far, by orders of magnitude. And adjusting history teaching in this way "not to offend people", rather than to give children a better grounding in history, is a very bad idea indeed.

[barb162]

163. It's an important subject , Cali.

Thanks for posting.

I can't believe it got to be such a large thread with any difference of opinion. It's so shocking on the face of it the way certain British schools caved.

Thank goodness for this: "Teaching of the Holocaust is expected to become compulsory under the new national curriculum from next year."

[AshevilleGuy]

166. The Holocaust was too big, too monstrous, to not be taught because

it might "offend" a bunch of fundamentalists of ANY religion!!! If it makes them uncomfortable, there must be stirrings of guilt at some level. Otherwise, why would it bother them?