If you missed Bill Moyers last night - the Torture debate

[malaise]

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05012009/transcript1.html
Bruce Fein and Mark Danner were excellent

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05012009/watch.html
Video

[montanacowboy]

1. I found it disturbing that Fein

insisted on pardoning Bush before any investigation had taken place

[malaise]

3. So did I

I don't support pardons

[dem629]

5. That's a tough position. It's in the Constitution.

Art. 2, Sec. 2: "...he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States..."

[malaise]

7. I'm talking about pardons for

these war criminals

[mmonk]

4. He is saying why not? He was for impeachment.

He is saying nothing is being done to restore our constitutional framework.

[omega minimo]

8. In that case, pardon Bush. Cheney was president.

[mmonk]

9. There seems to even be debate within Cheney himself.

;-)

[mmonk]

6. It's better than ignoring it and defending

the bush position in court. At least with a pardon, it is admission that crimes were committed.

[EFerrari]

11. His only point is that it's better than no investigation at all

and is based on a presumption of guilt, which in itself prevents torture from becoming an accepted power of the president.

[omega minimo]

15. And the current Bushco amassed total "accepted power of the president" remains to be addressed

:hi:

[EFerrari]

17. That's right. And unless we do something, they'll enshrine Bush

just as they Rayguns. :hi:

[90-percent]

2. Bruce Fein

Great guy, constitutionally speaking, but his voice is similar to Steve Smith on Family guy. Bruce has the speaking voice of a 14 year old boy, in other words.

Not a put down, I just find it interesting. I love all advocates and experts of the Constitution, which are in short supply these days.

Bruce does rock, after all.

-90% Jimmy

[EFerrari]

10. Mark Danner makes an excellent point when he runs down the list

if those implicated in illegal interrogations using torture:

The president
The vice president
Congress
The principals' committee
OLC
Justice
State
The Pentagon
CIA
People in the room including interrogators and their support people, i.e., doctors, psychologists, guards.

The corruption was all over the very top of our government. And, as Danner also points out. This isn't about the past at all.

[malaise]

12. This isn't about the past at all

That was his most important point to me because Cheney, Rove, Fox et al are saying over and over that any attack on the US will be Obama's fault for stopping the torture. In other words they all still support torture and torture is illegal.

[EFerrari]

13. Right. And in supporting it, they try to decriminalize their actions.

Did you see that crematoria have been found in Colombia? Reported last week, they are to dispose of bodies killed by the RW paras in order to disguise how many people they've slaughtered. These paras are to an extent under the wing of our intel services -- CIA, DEA and probably MI. I seriously doubt that Congress approved the building of crematoria in the "fight" against narco trafficking just as they didn't approve murdering prisoners in custody.

Every time we allow an administration to go on these extralegal rampages, we regret it later after death and destruction has been visited on innocent people.

[malaise]

14. 100% correct

The massacres in Colombia are no different than Chile or Argentina.

[omega minimo]

16. to justify their power grab

after LIHOP :crazy: