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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:27 PM
Original message
WHO raises their alert level from 3 to 4
according to CNBC

Still watiting on Linky and oh yes, this needs saying

SARS never got there


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Phase 4 indicates a significant increase in risk of a pandemic but does not necessarily mean that a
Phase 4 indicates a significant increase in risk of a pandemic but does not necessarily mean that a pandemic is a forgone conclusion.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It also indicates that countries will up their plans
and close borders

That is what it means

But it is not serious

I know for some folks, we whistle across as this continues to evolve

For them to GO there... it means they have seen a significant human to human transmission


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Justyce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. A pandemic is phase 5, the very next level, so regardless,
this is pretty scary stuff. :scared:

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. The quote is from the WHO link NadineB provided elsewhere.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. it's not a severity scale but a progression related one
so although 5 is worse than 4, 7 and 8 are the end of it and better.
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lamp_shade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. 2 more levels to go.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. For full blown absolutely
but this also releases governments to do several things that they'd not do before

At multiple levels this ain't good
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. I raised mine to Ludicrous Speed
But I wouldn't recommend that for the faint of heart.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Of course, denial is not just a river in egypt
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. actually now that you posted it
I am a little worried. If The Who can't handle swine flu I'm not sure if anybody can.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Actually it is not their job to handle it
at least not directly

It is up to national governments, under guidance and supply of critical goods and services
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:39 PM
Original message
I hope not
I don't think I would trust Pete Townsend to handle a situation like this. lol
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
34. Pete townsend????? Not even tied to WHO
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:41 PM
Original message
yes but I said The Who earlier
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
40. Stop it, man!
:rofl:
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. poor nadinb
She's trying to be helpful and I'm an idiot.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. That's ok, I did not think of the band
my gallows humor is off kilter
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
55. Delete.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 04:05 PM by TheWatcher
Jesus, it's just not worth it today.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. It might be if you just gave it a shot
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #61
80. All puns intended, I'm sure. n/t
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #61
171. No it isn't.
I'm being too reactionary today.

Not a good thing.

Carry on.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #61
174. If you gave it a shot, it might get autism and then it would be not so bad
but then again an autistic virus might be no laughing matter either
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Sheets of Easter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #34
137. pop culture fail.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
92. I laughed
This needs more cowbell.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. Pink Floyd does have far more swine-related experience -nt-
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. valid point nt
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
210. Ask the Guess Who
They're Canadians, they have a better health care system...
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
76. Have you gone plaid yet?
:evilgrin:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. poster raises her breathless op count to seven.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 03:35 PM by Hannah Bell
"thank god it passed!"

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/04/27/ap6343467.htm...

Health Secretary Jose Angel Cordova says only 20 of the deaths have been confirmed to be from swine flu and the government was awaiting tests results on the rest.


US: 0 deaths, 1 hospitalization, other cases = "no serious illness"
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. at what point do we get to waterboard somebody?
That's all I care about. :)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. You volunteering to be waterboarded?
:yoiks:
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I already did it before
I think I'm good from here on out.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
53. You are joking right?Th
There are no resources to test everyone and they don't need to to extrapolate what is going on.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
65. what? there are certainly resources to test 149 dead bodies; your claim there aren't is
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 04:38 PM by Hannah Bell
incredible.

in fact, the article specifically says they're being tested.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. I wasn't talking about only the deceased. nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. then i'm not sure what the relevance is.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. It is relevant in figuring the case fatality rate
on the emerging infectious disease list they are speculating there is a bias in the testing. Mexico is testing hospitalized patients and we for the most part have been testing outpatient. When it all catches up we will have a better picture.

And from behind the scenes information I have Mexico is overwhelmed and does not have the resources to to the testing it needs to do.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. to know case fatality rate, you need to confirm suspected case deaths.
mexico is not limited to its own resources in a suspected pandemic.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #107
116. dupe
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 07:05 PM by Mojorabbit
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #107
118. Right now they do not have the resources. nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. you thought it was so important, you had to say it twice?
let's see your documentation for "they don't have the resources".
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #119
128. You have shown up in almost every
flu discussion in the past five years with a combative tone. I cannot share my source. You may believe it or no.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #128
131. "in the past five years" funny, since i only joined in 2007.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. It feels like a lot longer. :) nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #134
145. only because you can't distinguish between feelings & fact.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. WHO's definition of phase 4
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 03:36 PM by NJmaverick
Phase 4 is characterized by verified human-to-human transmission of an animal or human-animal influenza reassortant virus able to cause “community-level outbreaks.” The ability to cause sustained disease outbreaks in a community marks a significant upwards shift in the risk for a pandemic. Any country that suspects or has verified such an event should urgently consult with WHO so that the situation can be jointly assessed and a decision made by the affected country if implementation of a rapid pandemic containment operation is warranted. Phase 4 indicates a significant increase in risk of a pandemic but does not necessarily mean that a pandemic is a forgone conclusion.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Of course it doesn't
but going from 3 to four does not happen often

For god sakes didn't happen with SARS

Get it now?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I got news for you, I work in public health
I even sat in on a CDC conference call today. I "get it" more than you could dream. Right now there is no need for panic. There is cause for concern, preparation and surveillance, but that's about it. On the plus side our nation has never been more prepared to handle such a crisis as all the Avian Flu preperation also works for Swine Flu.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Nobody is telling people to panic
unless you read the lets try to keep people informed as panic

Then guilty as charged
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. I consider your dramatic comparison to SARs a good way to create panic
Not a good comparison, which only serves to try and scare people.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I made a point
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 03:42 PM by nadinbrzezinski
sorry if you think that is dramatic

That was the first time the system was in-place,

And it was developed due to the avian flu risk...

But since you work in public health I am repeating what you already know
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
58. I thought it was a helpful comparison. And Nadin's posts have been informative.
I have looked for NadinB's posts because they calmed me down far more than those mocking anyone who might be afraid, or those trying to minimize the dangers.

Those of us who are exposed to lots of people coughing on public transit without covering their mouths may just be naturally more concerned about human to human transmission than the millions of Americans who drive around in personal private transportation. Although lots of people work in public contact jobs.

Those "this is nothing to worry about" messages induce far more fear in me than information about where we are on the WHO scale. If I know we've moved up to Stage 4, verification of human to human transmission, then I understand news stories about travel prohibitions, public events in outbreak areas being canceled and schools closed. I know which part of the process we've reached.

Here on the Pacific Rim, SARS was rather frightening, but it seemed to be confined to those who worked directly with birds and poultry. So I am interested to learn that this particular Swine-Plus Flu has reached a higher stage of alert than that one did. We are in new territory.

I hope NadinB will keep posting informative messages.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I will
and SARS was really fun in Hawaii

I kept my eye on the WHO and other places as well
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. I hope future messages will skip the dramatics and stick to the facts
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 04:19 PM by NJmaverick
while you might like panic inducing posts, they are irresponsible, at best. SARs is not the flu and shouldn't be brought into the discussions.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. No it is not FLU
but the alert level was not moved

After all, the alert level is only specific to flu... we all know that

:sarcasm:
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #72
101. I don't have time to play your games.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 06:11 PM by NJmaverick
who the hell turns a public health issue into some sort of on=line game??????
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #101
112. Apparently that would be you
For reasons that I have yet to figure you have been attacking me...

I just pointed out that I pointed to FACTS

Now if facts are a game

Then you are right, guilty as charged

MEA CULPA go ahead, report me to the mods for trying to spread panic, instead of actually informing people as the NEWS happens

Oh and you are not the only one with a background in this.

May not be actively involved anymore, but it is kind of scary to see plans develop in front of my eyes


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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #66
176. Not saying SARs was the flu, but it was a spreading disease, followed by W.H.O. and
that even with it spreading and causing the problems it did, WHO did not raise their level. I wonder why, was SARs isolated quickly enough, not spreading to enough places?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #176
200. I think it did not spread to enough places fast
enough

I may just look into the reasons why

Nerd that I am

:-)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. you've been hyping this flu for two days. puts me in mind of the days
before the bank bailout....
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. Has anyone recommended panic?
Is so, I've completely missed it. I've seen a lot of people recommending concern, preparation, and surveillance -- but there is a pandemic on DU of people knocking over straw men as if people had recommended running around in panic.



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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Apparently I have... by the way, where is that little cute
head on fire thingy?

:-)
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. I'ts my own
I keep it on Photobucket and bring it out for such occasions

feel free to copy it

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. thanks it is great
should make it part of my sig apparently


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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
62. whatever
:eyes:
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
82. The perennial response of someone who has nothing useful to say
It's not cool any more. It was about 15 years ago, but that's over.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. Well, I appreciate NB's efforts in keeping us up to date. n/t
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #82
100. I can't believe people here have turned a public health issue into
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 06:11 PM by NJmaverick
some sort of personal agenda/contest. Those that are doing this are truly embarrassing themselves. Still I have better things to do, than waste time...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #82
104. He works in public health; he might have something more interesting to say
than those hyping every scare story coming down the pike.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
105. what panic?
What is this about panic? No one is panicking. Nothing Nadin said is intended to cause anyone to panic.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. What is it with you posters that are turning a public health incident into some sort of game or
contest? This makes no sense. Is this some sort of numbers power play?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #110
126. no idea
No idea what you are talking about.

A public agency issues a warning. That is what they are supposed to do. Where is the panic?


...
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
175. So far the system seems to be working.
Find a problem, start to branch out and find out how far it goes, figure out if it need isolating or what, so on. It is a wake up call for some to realize how quickly something can spread, what with jet travel and all. But seems W.H.O. is doing ok working on it.

Very interesting, inho
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #175
179. Not just WHO. It's also the CDC, State, County and Local Public Health
All have been preparing for such outbreaks, since Avian flu came around. Now all this preperation has given them a real boost, in terms of addressing this rather quick outbreak of the Swine flu.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #179
190. I am glad that someone else is finding the process interesting and working also
It doesn't mean that everything can be prevented, but I find it fascinating what is happening with it. Combining a potentially serious health issue with instant media coverage, and tthe internets, it is all very interesting.

I feel very sorry for those who have had family/friends die from this, of course, and hope they get it controlled soon, but find the whole thing fascinating.

CDC has a list of states with confirmed cases.
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/

WHO has a good info on it all also. I found a page there with a bunch of "outbreak news" on other diseases in the last couple yrs also. I can't find the one page with the list, but found this page for what diseases they cover, with individual links.
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/en/
For instance, for yellow fever and dengue fever:
http://www.who.int/csr/don/archive/disease/yellow_fever/en/index.html
http://www.who.int/csr/don/archive/disease/dengue_fever/en/index.html


If I find the page with the whole list of recent outbreaks they covered, will post it
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I think it's smart to be concerned now...
And to think in terms of prevention.

The way some people around here talk, we shouldn't be concerned until the numbers become huge. I guess some are only going to be concerned once there's an actual pandemic.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. To some not even then
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Check this out if you are concerned
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
70. Good info... thanks...
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 04:20 PM by JuniperLea
I live a two-hour drive from Mexico. My daughter has been complaining of a sore throat and various aches and pains for a couple of days. The first reports I saw said no nausea or vomiting associated, so I blew off my receptionist calling in sick because her husband and baby boy were sick all night with flu symptoms. I'm going to text both daughter and receptionist right now and check in!

Thanks for posting this, and for linking me to your good info!
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
103. You're welcome. I believe that is what we should all be doing
this is a public health issue and providing good factual information to the public is important.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Well... this is interesting...
The office of the building (second tallest in downtown Los Angeles) just sent all of us individual office, office managers, a memo on how they are prepared for a pandemic.

This is the last note in the memo:

"In the event you become aware of anyone within your organization becoming ill from this flu, we ask that you notify us immediately so that we can implement certain precautions to help prevent its spread within the building. We also ask that you continue to monitor websites from the CDC as well as Los Angeles County Health Department to determine if your organization needs to take further action."
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. That sounds good
If they didn't give you the link, here it is:

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/index.htm
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
43. 20 confirmed deaths due to the flu in mexico. in the us, 1 hospitalization,
"no serious illness".

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
67. Look, if you feel that there is no cause for concern....go about your life. No harm done.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 04:19 PM by FedUpWithIt All
Really, we will all survive if we end up being wrong and wasted few days being vigilant about a virus.

It is possible though that the WHO, the CDC and several posters here are not wrong.

Why are you being so insistent? I KNOW why i have been. I really do feel that sharing info helps prevent issues should something like this really reach pandemic levels.

What is your angle? Are you trying to prevent something? What is it? And if you are wrong? What. if. you. are. wrong?

If i am wrong, people will return to other things and forget this.

What are the potential consequences if YOU ARE WRONG?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #67
81. i reported a fact: 20 *confirmed* deaths in mexico, not 149. no deaths in the us,
& mild cases here.

if you like information-sharing, you should have no objection to my "insistence" on making sure this information gets shared.

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #81
87. 28 cases out of 200+ similarly sick children from a school in NY are being labeled "confirmed"
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 04:58 PM by FedUpWithIt All
It is not a big leap to assume that a percentage of those, who all came down with an identical symptoms at the exact same time, are the suffering from the same virus and simply were not swabbed.

Of course, you are welcome to ignore everything that is not "confirmed" by the increasingly stressed and consumed PTB.

I will accept the suspected cases by those SAME PTB.



I have no issue with you sharing but i do have issue with snark aimed at those of us who DO FEEL that this is a really important subject.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. the info i shared was confirmed *deaths* due to the virus, not *cases*.
in the us, there have been *no* deaths, & only 1 hospitalization, despite a growing number of cases.

every case thus far reportedly "not serious".

my bringing these facts into the discussion does not prevent discussion, nor does it imply the subject is not important.

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Ok, I will accept the PTB's assessment that the suspected "deaths" figure into the discussion.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 05:40 PM by FedUpWithIt All
The highly suspect "deaths" in Mexico are at 149.

>>>"Cytokine storm is a real phenomenon.

There's *no* evidence it has anything to do with the deaths in Mexico, particularly since only 20 are yet confirmed to be from this flu. It is *speculation,* & shouldn't be passed on as though it were gospel."<<<

You are aware that most of the cases in Mexico have secondary pneumonia, right?

You just keep doing what your doing. Perhaps people will take all types of measures to ramp up their immune system while they are ill. That is what you are suggesting, right? That regardless of the evidence (From WHO,CDC and just about everyone else), people should be reacting to this virus exactly as they would a seasonal flu. Vitamin C, perhaps a little elderberry?

Ah, but it is all just a little snarky game, isn't it. Potential consequences be damned.

You take care.

Edited to add...i have a fever and am going to lay down.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. There's *no* evidence that cytokine storm has anything to do with these deaths.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 05:43 PM by Hannah Bell
Nor would it matter if people took measures to "ramp up their immune systems," as cytokine storm isn't the result of over-indulgence in vitamin C or other supposed immune boosters.

The fact is, only twenty of the suspect 149 deaths are confirmed as being due to the virus or sequelae.

You seem to have a problem with this fact.

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #96
111. "Nor would it matter if people took measures to "ramp up their immune systems,""
Really?


>>>A second similar study also measured monocyte production of IL-10 when exposed to various Sambucol preparations and confirmed the results of the first study. A 1.3- to 6.2-fold increase in cytokine production was observed compared to control. A 2.3-fold increase in IL-10 was also observed. (18)<<<

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDN/is_1_10/ai_n13648434/

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. This demonstrates my point. Cytokines are just proteins involved in immunity.
"cytokine storm" isn't caused from having "too many" of them, & everything you eat will affect production of proteins in some way.
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #113
120. What the hell are you talking about?
>>>When the immune system is fighting pathogens, cytokines signal immune cells such as T-cells and macrophages to travel to the site of infection. In addition, cytokines activate those cells, stimulating them to produce more cytokines. Normally, this feedback loop is kept in check by the body. However, in some instances, the reaction becomes uncontrolled, and too many immune cells are activated in a single place.<<<

You are really in medicine?

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #120
125. the feedback loop doesn't run unchecked because someone drank elderberry
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 07:09 PM by Hannah Bell
tea & produced "too many" cytokines. Rather, the feedback loop runs unchecked for reasons not fully understood, & the unchecked loop brings "too many" cytokines to the site of a threat.

The same thing is more or less happening with allergies & auto-immune diseases.

You simply don't know what you're talking about. Seriously.

Do you understand? It's not the number of cytokines in the body, it's a defect in the signaling process that tells the body when to stop requesting cytokines at the site of a threat.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Why elderbery is not indicated in cytokine storm
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 07:51 PM by Mojorabbit
as best as I understand it is TNF alpha is implicated in cytokine storm. Elderberry extract stimulates production of TNF alpha and would be detrimental to a person suffering from an already over production of same.

Production of inflammatory cytokines (IL-1b, TNF-a, IL-6, IL-8) was significantly increased, mostly by the Sambucol Black Elderberry Extract (2-45 fold), as compared to LPS, a known monocyte activator (3.6-10.7 fold). The most striking increase was noted in TNF-a production (44.9 fold)
http://www.john-libbey-eurotext.fr/en/revues/bio_rech/ecn/e-docs/00/01/60/95/resume.md
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #127
129. tnf = tumor necrosis factor, also "implicated" in cancer, anorexia,
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 08:06 PM by Hannah Bell
& a host of other disorders.

"implicated" is pretty contentless verbiage. i can give you lists of foods that increase or reduce tnf. if you lay in bed too long, tnf goes up.

i repeat: the causal mechanism of cytokine storm is not understood. there's no evidence consumption of supposed immune stimulators like vitamin c, elderberry, etc. have *anything* to do with it.

cytokine production isn't cytokine storm.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. I know what TNF is
and am reasonably well versed in what we know and don't know in how cytokine storm works as of now.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. then what is the point of your post? you headline it "why elderberry isn't implicated"
in cytokine storm, but follow up with discussion that seemingly argues it would tend to exacerbate it.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. My post says indicated not implicated. nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #133
143. my misreading, you meant "not indicated" in the sense of "don't take".
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 10:36 PM by Hannah Bell
which is at least consistent.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #129
135. The causal mechanism of cyokine storm is understood in viral pulmonary infections.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 08:57 PM by bluedawg12
In humans, the magnitude of cytokine and chemokine responses is proportional to the viral burden.

Edit to remove "N/T."
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #135
142. link?
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 10:42 PM by Hannah Bell
prove it. not that there's a relation with viral load, but that the mechanism "is understood".
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #142
146. No one needs to prove anything in order to have a right to ask questions and health and safety.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 10:53 PM by bluedawg12
edit: remove "to."
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. You didn't ask a question. You claimed the phenomenon of cytokine storm "is understood"
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 11:25 PM by Hannah Bell
in viral pulmonary infections.

You don't "have to" supply proof, but it would certainly enhance the believability of the claim.

It's my understanding that viral load is one of several competing explanations for cytokine storm, which is itself an unproven construct that attempts to explain a set of clinical observations.

If you have information that shows different, I'll be happy to say i'm wrong or behind the research curve.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. I don't care. My point is simply this, no citizens needs to debate cytokines or viral load
or TNF or the role of macrophages, or anything to be "deserving" or to "earn" the right to proper information about public health and safety issues.

The power over medicine does not belong in the hands of a few elite holders of the "truth."





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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. no one said it did. if you've followed the entire thread, my original posts
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 11:24 PM by Hannah Bell
simply noted that the confirmed death count was much smaller than the numbers being bandied about. some apparently thought mentioning that *fact* constituted an attack, & sought to educate me with the gospel of sanjay gupta.

it's not *me* who brought in cytokines or tnf. it was posters who didn't like me noting that confirmed deaths = 20.

This morning, the facts were: 20 confirmed deaths due to the virus in mexico, none in the us, & in the us only 40 cases, 1 hospitalization, no deaths, all cases described by authorities as "not serious".

people are speculating way beyond what's warranted by the evidence so far. i have as much right - & expertise - to put that pov forward as those running around posting in multiple places about cytokine storms & 149 deaths.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. It's not about you and what you post. It's about them and their concerns.
That's the way it works. People feel fearful of something potentially hazardous, and when they get mixed messages it is a source of confusion.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #150
155. I'm not quite sure where you're coming from, but here's where i'm coming from.
i have no objection to information.

i have an objection to people posting misinformation, incomplete information, pseudo-information, speculation beyond the fact, & contentless meanderings, the only purpose of which seems to be to ramp up hysteria.

i also don't like to be told to "educate myself" when i post a verifiable fact, or to be met with straw men like "so you think people should just ignore this?"

Example:

I've read here repeatedly, stated as fact, that this virus was unusual in that it was killing healthy young people "in the prime of life". From there, people went on to state, with little qualification, that "cytokine storms" were the reason for this abnormal picture.

1) only 20 deaths confirmed due to this virus. too few to have any clear picture of who is most vulnerable.

2) median age of death = 16. half of deaths = under 16, not = young people "in the prime of life", but children, typically more vulnerable that young adults "in the prime of life". age range on the other side = up to 72.

3) no evidence *at all* that cytokine storm has anything to do with anything.




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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #155
164. First of all, if you have a gripe about other posters, or other comments
bring it to them. I am uninterested.

>>I've read here repeatedly, stated as fact, that this virus was unusual in that it was killing healthy young people "in the prime of life". From there, people went on to state, with little qualification, that "cytokine storms" were the reason for this abnormal picture. etc<<


Well, that may be why you haven't seen me state that they died of any pathophysiologic mechanism because there has been no medical journal article about any of the pathology reports nor any other credible medical sources out of Mexico as to what happened to these people and why exactly, they expired.

Now, as to the discussion about the cytokine storm, that work comes from research done on the H5N1 virus.

It is an interesting topic and may be relevant for this virus as well. I don't know if it will be. But, that is how the topic of cytokine storms got brought up into discussion.

I don't know the ages of people who died.

I don't know how they died.

I don't know if they had primary viral pneumonia or secondary bacterial.

I don't know if they died of ARDS.

So, while it is interesting to discuss these topics, frankly, no one knows any actual medical facts as far as I can tell.

The other issue of 20 deaths only, well, if we do know that there were nearly 2,000 confirmed cases in Mexico, and if say the total of 149 did die from H1N1 or it's direct complications, then, that is about a 7% mortality rate. That's notable.

The fact that we only have had 44 cases documented in the US and no has gotten seriously ill may simply mean that we have not reached a threshold of cases here and as some experts said at the presser, we might see another spike of seriuoslyil people here. No one knows for sure, I don't expect them to, but I do expect some modelling or prognostication.

There is no reason to know what the balance of the 129 people died of, but there is a probability it is going to be H1N1 and tt doesn't really matter as far as readiness. Mortality rates are not drive the WHO staging, nor what drove our administration to free up a certain number of meds.

It's the rapid spread and the suspected mortality rate. That's epidemiology, predictive, they cannot wait for the last path report, they have to monitor this. Great. Monitor it.

In the meantime, because we have an open society people know and are worried. They are not looking at anything other than the news reports and whatever they can get from places like DU. They should know.

There is nothing to hide, nothing to fear, this thing is still relatively confined, that's transparency.









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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #164
172. "no one knows any actual medical facts as far as I can tell"
Edited on Tue Apr-28-09 02:31 AM by Hannah Bell
precisely my point. yet folks are speculating & passing off their speculation as fact.


"if say the total of 149 did die from H1N1 or it's direct complications,"

but it is not confirmed that this is the case. 20 deaths are confirmed due to the virus. period.

confirmed *cases* in the *world* at last check = 82 - not over 2000

"The number of cases confirmed by health officials worldwide totaled 82, most of them in the United States and Mexico, according to the WHO."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/04/28/swine.flu/?iref=mpstoryview
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #172
180. So true, not Forbes not us in the public, but public health officials do
I trust, exchange medical data.

When the virulence of this virus is determined to be low then spread will be less meaningful and the warnings will reflect that. One more good reason to keep informed.
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #155
167. The median age you posted is regarding the US cases, not the Mexican deaths.
If you have seen otherwise, link to it please.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #167
173. you're correct. there are only 82 confirmed cases in the world, & only 20 confirmed
deaths. kind of hard to make a big case for killing in the prime of life.

the us figures so far are the only hard numbers i've seen on ages of cases or deaths.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #155
170. Hannah-- good night, I'm out of here and to zzzz'z.
I left an abstract on cytokine storm with fedupwitheverything's reply below.

:hi:
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #150
166. She is talking about me. I am not particularly fearful. I don't think i am confused either.
Edited on Tue Apr-28-09 12:45 AM by FedUpWithIt All
:hi:

I know the difference between a potential case/death and a confirmed case/death.

1. A Confirmed case of swine influenza A(H1N1) virus infection is defined as an individual
with laboratory confirmed swine influenza A(H1N1) virus infection by one or more of
the following tests*:
• real‐time RT‐PCR
• viral culture
• four‐fold rise in swine influenza A(H1N1) virus specific neutralizing antibodies.
2. A Probable case of swine influenza A(H1N1) virus infection is defined as an individual
with an influenza test that is positive for influenza A, but is unsubtypable by reagents
used to detect seasonal influenza virus infection OR
A individual with a clinically compatible illness or who died of an unexplained acute
respiratory illness who is considered to be epidemiologically linked to a probable or
confirmed case.


I also know that many of the "suspected" cases will not be investigated once an initial affirmation of a cluster is established (due to several factors) which leaves us with the necessity of considering the officially reported suspect cases/deaths many of which have already been testing positive for influenza A.

There is also the fact that WHO today pulled back on the number of confirmed deaths in Mexico to 7, AFTER Health Secretary Jose Angel Cordova admitted that there are in fact 20 "confirmed" deaths. Interesting, to say the least.

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_27/en/index.html

We know that the officially stated confirmed number was 20 deaths earlier today because "a certain poster" told us so... :eyes:


Medical science does not currently know the exact mechanism that triggers cytokine storm. We cannot say if increased cytokine levels before or during infection is a risk factor for ARDS or an effect of some other mechanism that begins the inflammatory cascade that results in it. High cytokine levels are documented to be associated with ARDS, but causation is unknown.


http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Consequences.Elderberry

I have provided documentation that there is a potential issue with the use of certain "immunity boosting" preparations. I would be interested in seeing documentation backing up opposing viewpoints. So far none were provided. :shrug:

The opposing viewpoint was that there is definitively no issue with these preparations. I think that is a dangerous stance to take when one considers that it has been well documented that the majority of the affected are the non-typical healthy young adult age group.



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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #166
169. That was good research on the diagnostic standard.
Here's one of the newer abstracts published on cytokines etc. this might explain a little more about what is known. There are others, but hey, a cytokine is a cytokine. :rofl:

Then, as much fun as this has been, I have to get some zzzzz's.

I have no opinion on immune boosters, other than to say that an argument that says here is data to prove it is so now prove it is not so, is not a great argument. The reason for supportive data is for that data to be examined. Frankly, it's late, I have my cat waiting for his nightly blueberries and the left over cream. No elderberries, ahh, but them blueberries are great! :P


Mikrobiyol Bul. 2008 Apr;42(2):365-80.Links

Us D.
Hacettepe Universitesi Tip Fakültesi, Mikrobiyoloji ve Klinik Mikrobiyoloji Anabilim Dali, Ankara. durdalus@hacettepe.edu.tr

The most dramatic example of defining the pathogenicity of influenza virus A/H5N1 strains is the higher fatality rate of avian influenza epidemic (>50%) occured in Southeast Asia in 1997 comparing to the pandemic caused by influenza virus A/H1N1 in 1918 (5-10%) which was recorded as the most destructive pandemic in the world. When considering the fatal/total case numbers (208/340) reported by World Health Organization in respect of December 14th, 2007, the mortality rate has now reached to 61 percent. Recent studies have shown that the high fatality rate of avian influenza virus infections is a consequence of an overactive inflammatory response and the severity of infection is closely related with virus-induced cytokine dysregulation.

The most important feature of A/H5N1 immunopathogenesis is the appearence of hypercytokinemia ("cytokine storm") which is characterized by the extreme (exaggerated) production and secretion of large numbers and excessive levels of pro-inflammatory cytokines.

This phenomenon is blamed on the emergence of lethal clinical symptoms such as extensive pulmonary oedema, acute bronchopneumoniae, alveolar haemorrhage, reactive haemophagocytosis, and acute respiratory distress syndrome, associated with necrosis and tissue destruction.

Numerous in vitro, in vivo and clinical studies have pointed out that A/H5N1 viruses are very strong inducers of various cytokines and chemokines , in both humans and animals.

The privileged cells of cytokine storm are macrophages and CD8+ T-lymphocytes, while the primary contributor cytokines are TNF-alpha, IL-6 and IFN-gamma.

It has been detected that, mutations of some viral genes (NS1, PB2, HA and NA) are responsible for the cytokine storm, by increasing the viral replication rate, expending the tissue tropism, facilitating the systemic invasion and emerging of resistance against the host antiviral response. It has been shown that Glu92 and Ala149 mutations, and carboxyl-terminal ESEV/EPEV motif of NS1 protein have been implicated as determinants of virulence for A/H5N1 strains.

In addition, Lys627 mutation in PB2 protein, polybasic aminoacid mutations in the cleavage region of hemagglutinin (HA) polyprotein, and glycosylation and sialylation mutations in HA and neuraminidase (NA) proteins were found to enhance the immune-mediated patology of highly virulent A/H5N1 strains. In this review article, the immunopathogenesis of influenza infection and the mechanisms of cytokine storm caused by influenza A/H5N1 viruses have been discussed under the light of recent literature.


:hi:



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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #166
177. "potential issue" = elderberry shown to increase cytokine production.
Edited on Tue Apr-28-09 02:42 AM by Hannah Bell
i don't dispute it.

i dispute the claim that there is any serious scientific evidence that consumption of "immune boosters" such as vitamin c, elderberry, etc. increase the risk of cytokine storm. if you have any (serious = research paper), bring it on. "we cannot say" & "we don't know the mechanism" aren't evidence of anything, they express a lack of evidence & cya for the wiki writer. furthermore, the pros & cons of immune boosters is irrelevant to the original post.

20 confirmed dead, number from the mexican health minister, was the best number this morning. now it's seven, per who, you say.

what it's not is "149."

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #177
178. "now it's seven, per who, you say. "
Edited on Tue Apr-28-09 06:31 AM by FedUpWithIt All
Per WHO according to the WHO link i provided.

See how the numbers work. You can now inform everyone that there are only 7 confirmed deaths (which caused WHO to raise their pandemic level to 4 for the first time EVER)....I am sure people will believe that to be the case.

I have to take my fevered kid to the Dr.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #178
183. That's the point: WHO is monitoring this situation and we monitor WHO.
They are well aware of the the suspected cases, confirmed cases, suspected deaths and confirmed deaths, as well as world wide reports of new cases and so on and so forth.

This information is then made available to the public for those who are interested.

FedUpWithIt All-- keep us posted on your little one. :hi:
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #183
185. Apparently a couple of days ago they were not aware. Nor was/is the health minister.
They all said 20 confirmed cases. Either they were or were not confirmed.

If they were previously confirmed than someone is pulling back...Why? If they were not confirmed than the argument that were should only consider the confirmed cases is mute, obviously.



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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #185
188. This illustrates the difficulties of getting health data from international sources.
That's why I am glad that agencies such as WHO are out there to do the work of investigating and sorting out the data and fact from fiction and synthesizing it into some coherent meaning for public health recommendations.

Rather than chasing down the latest media numbers, stick with CDC and WHO and see how they interpret it.

Death rates are but one variable in assessing a public health threat.

A lot of different factors come into play when we need data from other nations.

Sometimes political or cultural pressures can over ride factual and accurate reporting of data, if for example, a government does not want to appear to the world as incompetent, they may decide to downplay mortality, if they want international assistance, they may play up casualty and mortality.

Groups like WHO deal with international health monitoring on a daily basis, they are trained to deal with the cultural and political aspects of assessing regional problems.

Two examples come to mind that were culturally mitigated.

The tsunami caused devastation and loss of life and to some extent international help was welcome, then, on another hand it was rejected.

The same with the Chinese earthquake recently, where there was great loss of life and yet, if I recall, help was rejected from foreign sources.

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #188
189. How did this turn into a political issue over the refusal to accept foreign aid in a catastrophe?
:crazy:

Look, it is pretty simple. A poster acted as if a certain verification level was more certain or static than another. It is not. Both levels have been subject to a type of formal elimination or confirmation testing. I am ONLY concerned right now with WHO and WHO inaccuracies. The Mexican government has been very consistent. WHO on the other hand has not. Something is either tested and confirmed, or it is not. You cannot WITHDRAW confirmation unless you were WRONG to begin with.


WHO, using the guidelines below...

1. A Confirmed case of swine influenza A(H1N1) virus infection is defined as an individual
with laboratory confirmed swine influenza A(H1N1) virus infection by one or more of
the following tests*:
• real‐time RT‐PCR
• viral culture
• four‐fold rise in swine influenza A(H1N1) virus specific neutralizing antibodies.
2. A Probable case of swine influenza A(H1N1) virus infection is defined as an individual
with an influenza test that is positive for influenza A, but is unsubtypable by reagents
used to detect seasonal influenza virus infection OR
A individual with a clinically compatible illness or who died of an unexplained acute
respiratory illness who is considered to be epidemiologically linked to a probable or
confirmed case.


claimed there were 20 confirmed deaths. This means that, according to WHO, there were 20 samples confirmed in laboratories as nothing other than the current version of swine flu.

WHO is not saying that now.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #189
192. Please Document The WHO "pulback" from "20 to 7" inconsistency.
The # 20 came from a Forbes article.
The #7 came from WHO.

I am unable to find a "pull back" in the WHO confirmed death rate from 20 down to 7 on the WHO website.

“There is also the fact that WHO today pulled back on the number of confirmed deaths in Mexico to 7, AFTER Health Secretary Jose Angel Cordova admitted that there are in fact 20 "confirmed" deaths. Interesting, to say the least... I am ONLY concerned right now with WHO and WHO inaccuracies. The Mexican government has been very consistent. WHO on the other hand has not. " - FedUpWithIt All


You have only demonstrated that a NGO published report and a government official during a press interview had differing statistics.

Is there more?

Here is the WHO link you cited.

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_27/en/index.html

27 April 2009 -- The current situation regarding the outbreak of swine influenza A(H1N1) is evolving rapidly. As of 27 April 2009, the United States Government has reported 40 laboratory confirmed human cases of swine influenza A(H1N1), with no deaths. Mexico has reported 26 confirmed human cases of infection with the same virus, including seven deaths. Canada has reported six cases, with no deaths, while Spain has reported one case, with no deaths.


Here is the Forbes story from where the number of deaths as 20 came from.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/04/27/ap6343467.htm...

Associated Press
Mexico: Suspected swine flu deaths climb to 149
Associated Press, 04.27.09, 01:42 PM EDT

Mexican Health Secretary Jose Angel Cordova says ...

..the suspected death toll has climbed to 149,

20 of those cases confirmed to be from swine flu

the government was awaiting tests results on the rest.

He says 1,995 people have been hospitalized with serious cases of pneumonia since the first case of swine flu was reported on April 13.

The government does not yet know how many were swine flu.


In the meantime, since Saturday, the CDC count has gone up from from 11 cases in the US to 64, as of 4-28-08.

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/investigation.htm

Human Swine Influenza Investigation
April 25, 2009 19:30 EDT

Human cases of swine influenza A (H1N1) virus infection have been identified in the U.S. in San Diego County and Imperial County, California as well as in San Antonio, Texas. Internationally, human cases of swine influenza A (H1N1) virus infection have been identified in Mexico.

U.S. Human Cases of Swine Flu Infection
As of April 25th, 2009 7:30 p.m. EDT
State # of laboratory
confirmed cases
California 7 cases
Texas 2 cases
Kansas 2 cases
TOTAL COUNT 11 cases
International Human Cases of Swine Flu Infection
See: World Health Organization


http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/

U.S. Human Cases of Swine Flu Infection
(As of April 28, 2009 11:00 AM ET)
State # of laboratory
confirmed cases
California 10 cases
Kansas 2 cases
New York City 45 cases
Ohio 1 case
Texas 6 cases
TOTAL COUNT 64 cases

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #192
194. Seems i confused "cases" and "deaths"
Edited on Tue Apr-28-09 03:09 PM by FedUpWithIt All
>>>I could only find this link and it says cases, not deaths.

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_24/en/index.html

The number of cases has risen steadily through April and as of 23 April there are now more than 854 cases of pneumonia from the capital. Of those, 59 have died. In San Luis Potosi, in central Mexico, 24 cases of ILI, with three deaths, have been reported. And from Mexicali, near the border with the United States, four cases of ILI, with no deaths, have been reported.

Of the Mexican cases, 18 have been laboratory confirmed in Canada as Swine Influenza A/H1N1, while 12 of those are genetically identical to the Swine Influenza A/H1N1 viruses from California.<<<


Going to lay back down. x(
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #194
198. This might be of interest, new info. from WHO today.

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_28/en/index.html

>>Swine influenza - update 4
28 April 2009--The situation continues to evolve rapidly. As of 19:15 GMT, 28 April 2009, seven countries have officially reported cases of swine influenza A/H1N1 infection. The United States Government has reported 64 laboratory confirmed human cases, with no deaths. Mexico has reported 26 confirmed human cases of infection including seven deaths.

The following countries have reported laboratory confirmed cases with no deaths - Canada (6), New Zealand (3), the United Kingdom (2), Israel (2) and Spain (2).

Further information on the situation will be available on the WHO website on a regular basis.

WHO advises no restriction of regular travel or closure of borders. It is considered prudent for people who are ill to delay international travel and for people developing symptoms following international travel to seek medical attention, in line with guidance from national authorities.

There is also no risk of infection from this virus from consumption of well-cooked pork and pork products. Individuals are advised to wash hands thoroughly with soap and water on a regular basis and should seek medical attention if they develop any symptoms of influenza-like illness.<<

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #183
193. sure, it's where you got your "2000 cases," right?
valuable "information"
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. You already know that answer. "Nearly 2000 confirmed cases."
The Forbes article was cited correctly by me as 1995.(1)

In another reply, I said nearly 2,000 to round off 1995 to arrive at 7%.

But if you feel better: 149 out of 1995 is 7.45%

:rofl:

“He says 1,995 people have been hospitalized with serious cases of pneumonia since the first case of swine flu was reported on April 13.” (1)


“The other issue of 20 deaths only, well, if we do know that there were nearly 2,000 confirmed cases in Mexico, and if say the total of 149 did die from H1N1 or it's direct complications, then, that is about a 7% mortality rate. That's notable.” (2)


(1)http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5545680&mesg_id=5548691

(2)http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5545680&mesg_id=5549546

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #195
196. Those 1995 aren't confirmed cases, sorry. They're total hospitalizations for pneumonia.
"Cordova said 1,995 people have been hospitalized with serious cases of pneumonia since mid-April, of whom 1,070 have been released. The government does not yet know how many were swine flu."

"The government DOES NOT YET KNOW HOW MANY"


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gfYcVCw5PiKbk5yaX7JaF9NqhPygD97R35PO1

"confirmed" = verified by lab report.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #196
197. It's the "if" anf "then" that seems to stump you.
I know you must understand an "if" and "then" proposition.

So please read more carefully and stay in context.

I never said we do know there were nearly 2,000 confirmed deaths, I said, if we knew there were a certain number of confirmed deaths, and if we knew that 149 died of the flu, then we would arrive at a 7% mortality rate. I went no to say, "no one knows for sure, I don't expect them to, but I do expect some modelling or prognostication."


Well, that may be why you haven't seen me state that they died of any pathophysiologic mechanism because there has been no medical journal article about any of the pathology reports nor any other credible medical sources out of Mexico as to what happened to these people and why exactly, they expired...

"I don't know the ages of people who died.

I don't know how they died.

I don't know if they had primary viral pneumonia or secondary bacterial.

I don't know if they died of ARDS.

So, while it is interesting to discuss these topics, frankly, no one knows any actual medical facts as far as I can tell.

The other issue of 20 deaths only, well, if we do know that there were nearly 2,000 confirmed cases in Mexico, and if say the total of 149 did die from H1N1 or it's direct complications, then, that is about a 7% mortality rate. That's notable.

The fact that we only have had 44 cases documented in the US and no has gotten seriously ill may simply mean that we have not reached a threshold of cases here and as some experts said at the presser, we might see another spike of seriuoslyil people here. No one knows for sure, I don't expect them to, but I do expect some modelling or prognostication.

...It's the rapid spread and the suspected mortality rate. That's epidemiology, predictive, they cannot wait for the last path report, they have to monitor this. Great. Monitor it.
"

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #197
199. i saw the "if" "then". it indicates speculation. you're reporting unconfirmed cases as confirmed
ones.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #199
203. A discussion and report, you need to learn the difference. n/t
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #177
184. Here is some info. from a Progressive Public Health Forum on CFR.
As progressives I believe that we share a common goal, to provide quality health care to the public and to disseminate information that is devoid of rightwing lies and disinformation to allow the public to be well informed in order to allow people to make reasonable decisions for their own health and safety.

I think this web site may be a very good resource for DU'ers. In fact CFR is just what we have been talking about.

http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/04/swine_flu_what_do_cfr_virulenc.php#more

>>Swine flu: what do CFR, virulence and mortality rate mean?
Category: Epidemiology • Infectious disease • Influenza treatment • Pandemic preparedness • Public health preparedness • Surveillance • Swine flu
Posted on: April 27, 2009 8:59 PM, by revere

One of the things we'd like to know about the swine flu virus is its Case Fatality Ratio (CFR, commonly called a case fatality rate, although it isn't technically a rate but a proportion). But what is a CFR? And how is it different from a mortality rate?

The CFR is an estimate of the probability that someone with the swine flu will die of it (technically, before dying from something else or recovering). The higher the CFR, the more virulent the virus. So what's virulence? Virulence refers to the severity of the disease the virus produces. Rabies is a virulent virus. Everybody dies from it once they start getting symptoms. Rhinovirus infection (common cold) isn't very virulent. We use CFR here to describe how virulent this virus is.

That's a little too simple, though, because disease, whether virulent or not, isn't just about the virus but it's about the virus and the host relationship. The virus uses the host to make copies of itself by hijacking the host's cellular protein making machinery for its own purposes. If it can do this without much cost to the host, that's fine. That's why the some viruses are able to co-exist happily with their hosts. Many birds are infected by influenza viruses without any apparent ill effect. The very same virus, however, might kill us. That's a different kind of host parasite relationship. Virulence isn't something inherent in the virus but a function of a host - virus combination. That's one reason why we can't tell how virulent a virus is by just looking at the virus. We need to know its biology in the environment of our bodies.

One observable measure of virulence, then, is the CFR, which brings us back to the question: what is CFR? Again, in simplest terms we can estimate it by using as the numerator the number of swine flu deaths in Mexico (or the US) and divide it by the total number of cases. That proportion is an estimate of dying of swine flu. Simple. Unfortunately a little too simple, because we have great difficult ascertaining both the numerator and the denominator.

The numerator, ideally, would be everyone who died of swine flu. To do that we'd have to have a strict definition of a swine flu death, for example, someone who died of respiratory failure and had laboratory confirmed infection with the swine flu virus (don't give me grief about the definition; it's just for illustration). Does that cover everyone who died of swine flu? What about people who didn't die exactly that way? What about the accuracy of the test for swine flu infection? Do we even have a tally of all the deaths? Have they all been tested, or were some buried or cremated before testing?

In a sense the numerator is the easier part. The denominator is meant to tally all the swine flu infections. Not just the hospitalized cases, not just the symptomatic cases. If you really want to know the risk once infected, you have to have them all. That could be a lot of people, too many to get specimens from and send them to Atlanta. Many people probably never see a doctor and ones that do don't get a specimen, and of the specimens some get lost or misplaced or degrade, and the lab may make mistakes. So you are likely to miss many cases. But without laboratory confirmation you are also likely to count many people who are sick with other viruses, which are prevalent at any time of year. Think about your city during flu season. How would you go about figuring out the total number of people who had flu? Once you start thinking about it you begin to see the difficulties.

If you undercount the denominator you falsely inflate the CFR. That's almost certainly the case when you try to estimate CFR in Mexico by dividing number of deaths, 140 (only 20 of which have been laboratory confirmed), by the number of suspect cases (1640 or whatever the number will be when you read this). But you might overcount the denominator, too. There are a lot of viruses that produce "flu-like" symptoms. That would underestimate the CFR.

So what's a mortality rate? A swine flu mortality rate is the number of deaths divided by the population at risk of dying. The numerator is the same (number of deaths from swine flu; a time period should be specified) but the denominator is now all the people in Mexico City. CFR is a proportion, a number between zero and one. The mortality rate is a number of deaths in some convenient unit of population, say number of swine flu deaths per 100,000 people. It is a whole number between zero and 100,0000 (hopefully not, because that would mean it wiped out the whole city). These two numbers are telling us different things about the virus. A mortality rate is easier to calculate because the denominator is easier to estimate, using census information, but doesn't reveal virulence, so CFR is what is interested in this case.

We'll discuss other basic measures and principles as this wears on. After all, there is only so much you can say when there isn't much new to report beyond new cases. It's something to do until we get more scientific data. And when we get it, we'll all be on the same page.<<<


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #184
186. From a Progressive Public Health Forum: The value of information to the public.
This is from 4-26-09, so the numbers are a little outdated, but the point is well made by the people reporting in from Mexico and what happens when there is lack of credible information, lack of government preparedness and lack of trust in the government.

People deserve transparency and credible websites such as WHO and the CDC are readily available on line.



http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/04/swine_flu_what_you_dont_know_h.php

Swine flu: what you don't know, hurts us all
Category: Infectious disease • Pandemic preparedness • Public health preparedness • Swine flu
Posted on: April 26, 2009 3:29 PM, by revere

The White House held a briefing this afternoon with the Secretary of Homeland Security, Acting Director of CDC and Nat'l Security adviser to the President in attendance. If you have been following this you wouldn't have learned much, but the overall tone was one of serious concern but steady confidence. It was good security theater, and I say that in a good way. Information was divulged (judging from some of the press questions there was no danger over estimating the knowledge of the audience) and a sensible plan described.

There are now officially 20 confirmed cases in the US in five states (California, Texas, Ohio, New York, Kansas). The Department of Homeland Security will be the lead agency (the incident command) for this, but the health end will be taken by the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS). Whether it would have made a difference if DHHS had a confirmed cabinet secretary isn't clear. Obama's nominee is being held up by Republican abortion ideologues, so there it is a headless Department at just the wrong time. The US version of the disease continues to be relatively mild, although most people expect severe and fatal cases to turn up as case finding intensifies.

DHHS has declared a "public health emergency," a legal designation that permits certain public health resources like a portion of the 50 million courses of antivirals in the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) to be prepositioned in the states should the need arise. A number of topics were discussed but not much new information. Daily briefings were promised.

I may be making this sound less valuable than it was. For those following it closely not much new came out, but it was a pretty credible performance overall.

If you want to know what happens when the government lacks credibility and compounds it by not keeping people informed, just take a look at the responses from Mexicans, including physicians, who were invited to comment by the BBC. I'm guessing a lot of the things said here will turn out to be false, exaggerated or distorted in some way. That's what happens in outbreaks. But which things?

Here are 4 of 17 comments, more or less random (hat tip commenter habebe):

I'm a specialist doctor in respiratory diseases and intensive care at the Mexican National Institute of Health. There is a severe emergency over the swine flu here. More and more patients are being admitted to the intensive care unit. Despite the heroic efforts of all staff (doctors, nurses, specialists, etc) patients continue to inevitably die. The truth is that anti-viral treatments and vaccines are not expected to have any effect, even at high doses. It is a great fear among the staff. The infection risk is very high among the doctors and health staff.
There is a sense of chaos in the other hospitals and we do not know what to do. Staff are starting to leave and many are opting to retire or apply for holidays. The truth is that mortality is even higher than what is being reported by the authorities, at least in the hospital where I work it. It is killing three to four patients daily, and it has been going on for more than three weeks. It is a shame and there is great fear here. Increasingly younger patients aged 20 to 30 years are dying before our helpless eyes and there is great sadness among health professionals here.
Antonio Chavez, Mexico City

I think there is a real lack of information and sadly, preventative action. In the capital of my state, Oaxaca, there is a hospital closed because of a death related to the porcine influenza. In the papers they recognise only two people dead for that cause. Many friends working in hospitals or related fields say that the situation is really bad, they are talking about 19 people dead in Oaxaca, including a doctor and a nurse. They say they got shots but they were told not to talk about the real situation. Our authorities say nothing. Life goes on as usual here.

Young people are going to schools and universities. Buses and planes go and come from Mexico City as frequently as before. Even with two people dead locally, last night the local baseball stadium was full, mainly with young people. What's really happening? I know vaccines are good for nothing, and if you take care, maybe you won't die, so, why not acknowledge the real situation? I know that the economic situation is not the best, and it will worsen with panic. But panic comes from a lack of information. Many people travel for pleasure or without any real need. Stopping those unjustified trips can help a lot to ease the situation. We must do something!
Alvaro Ricardez, Oaxaca City, Oaxaca, Mexico

The truth is that it is very strange, what we are living through here. The streets are empty, we are all staying in our houses. People are only going out to the hospitals, drugstores and to buy food. The great majority have their mouths covered. Concerts, festivals, masses have all been cancelled, the football matches have all been played behind closed doors. On the television and radio, every commercial break contains information on the symptoms, saying that if you have them to go to the doctor at once. Although we have been told to go to work as normal on Monday, I am worried because I am employed at a company where there are many people and believe that it could be highly contagious. They say on the news that the cases that are most critical involve people aged 20 to 50.
Nallely T, State of Mexico

I have a sister-in-law from San Luis Potosi state in Mexico and we were told that in San Luis Potosi there have been at least 78 deaths, just in that city alone, not 68 in all of Mexico, as is being reported. Schools have been closed until 6 May in this state and in other areas in Mexico. Also, many public venues are being closed, so this makes it more deadly and dangerous than has been stated.
Migdalia Cruz, Phoenix, Arizona, USA


The Mexican authorities have provided a textbook case on how not to do it.



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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #67
138. I'm convinced that some people
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 10:11 PM by Control-Z
just have to be contrary. In this case, though, a situation concerning illness and possible death, it may be a matter of fears too big for them to face. For that reason, I try to show at least a small amount of tolerance while being chastised by them.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #138
144. I'm convinced that some people can't bear having their hobbyhorses questioned.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #144
151. I'm convinced you made good people uneasy at a time of perceived crises.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #138
152. Many people are concerned about the news about H1N1, that was at issue in this thread.
That was what was posted and that was people came to learn about, because they were fearful, or at the very least concerned.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #152
157. Then it will do them no harm to learn only 20 deaths in mexico are confirmed
as being due to the virus, that there are no deaths in the US & only one hospitalization, & that every case was described as "not serious".

I'm not sure what your objection is to my stating these facts, nor why the other posters objected.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #157
161. I care so little about you repeating this mantra. It means zip!
Say something insightful already.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #161
163. ooh! 149 dead! who alert level raised! zocalo empty! cytokine storm!
it's no empty mantra to respect fact.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #163
165. Go read my other reply - I just wrote it.
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luvspeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. Duct tape time!!!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
42. If you care, sure why not? After all they need the money
sadly though will not stop this

:evilgrin:

Now I do recommend staying informed, that works much better
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Depends on what they means by alert
I sometimes have 4 cups of tea at Sunday brunch instead of 3, and I'm usually pretty alert afterward.

Does that count?
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:35 PM
Original message
yes, that's exactly what they meant
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thanks, I was pretty sure, but not certain.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm a two-hour drive from Mexico...
This is scary for Angelinos!

I wonder how the lack of health care figures into this mess.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Will see how it plays here
on the bright side, yes there is one... perhaps this will make muricans wake up from their duff and DEMAND national health care

50 m people will not go to the doc, unless they have no choice, right at the moment

Hell of a delivery system we got, NOT
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
139. I'm in So OC
and I'm with you on the scary. Although it's becoming increasingly dangerous to admit that, with some of members posting here.

Let me clarify for them that I am not panicked.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
141. they've already confirmed a case in sacramento
in a middle school student.....who had just returned from mexico. i ride the light rail and it was almost empty today, even with it being a monday.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #141
191. 3 confirmed cases in sacramento
as of this morning.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. Yes, that is scary. Closed borders will be next. nt
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. Closing borders at this point would be useless. It has already jumped the Atlantic
and Pacific thanks to air travel. They have confirmed cases all over Europe, and even in Aus and NZ.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Yeah but don't be too shocked if they do
that is the point where politics takes precedence over policy

:evilgrin:


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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
22. Seems like "Raises" alert level to 4 is a misnomer
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 03:36 PM by CreekDog
since they are phases rather than levels.

shows a progression of the flu from beginning to end, where 7 is actually better than 4.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Correct, my bad
it is a progression
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
69. Good point. Interesting stuff.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. OK I'm impressed. This really is serious. Not huge yet. But serious.
And I am not laughing. My kid is in NYC right now.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. wash hands, wash them so more
was them

And stay away from sick people, at this point this is the best advise
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
35. In all seriousness
This all makes me glad that I'm an OCD oddball who washes his hands about 30-40 times a day.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. I may imitate you for a couple of weeks
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
48. Time to implement "Operation Soaring Eagle."
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Oh man that's bad
:evilgrin:
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SeeHopeWin Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
50. Not good :(
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
54. "The current WHO phase of pandemic alert is 4." WHO page:
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. now it's updated
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 04:11 PM by eShirl
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
56. U.S. woman caught it from husband two days ago: that is def of Lev 4: human to human transmission
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rcrush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
64. I love that song Baba Orielly.
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MorningGlow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
68. NB, can you explain something for me?
How is human-to-human contact with the swine flu different from any other type of flu? I thought all types were passed from one person to another by coughing, sneezing, touching one another and shared objects like doorknobs. I'm confused and stoopid when it comes to biology. Thx. :crazy:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. At the most simple of levels
this is not human flu... but pig flu

Pig flu that has jumped the species barrier

If it staid in pigs, wed not be having this conversation
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MorningGlow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. I'm sorry, I wasn't clear--lemme try again
What I meant was that I saw on this thread that elevating to "phase 4" is determined by confirmed human-to-human contact. So how is that any different from any other types of flu, which are also spread by human-to-human contact? Why do other types of flu not get escalated on this scale? (Or do they, and they just don't get the coverage?)
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. I think I understand what you mean. Let me give it a try.
The WHO scale explains it pretty well.

Looks like animal viruses are the base line and common.

In phase 2 it is still limited to animals.

In phase 3 a virus causes sporadic cases in humans, or small clusters.

In phase 4 the virus, while human to human, as in phase 3, is now able to virus able to cause “community-level outbreaks.”

Then with each phase upward it causes ever widening circle of spread: Phase 5 is characterized by human-to-human spread of the virus into at least two countries in one WHO region.

Then, in Phase 6, the pandemic phase, is characterized by community level outbreaks in at least one other country in a different WHO region

So the emphasis shifts in phase3, once it's human to human or animal to human then the geographical spread becomes the criteria.

Hope that helps. :)
...........



In nature, influenza viruses circulate continuously among animals, especially birds. Even though such viruses might theoretically develop into pandemic viruses, in Phase 1 no viruses circulating among animals have been reported to cause infections in humans.

In Phase 2 an animal influenza virus circulating among domesticated or wild animals is known to have caused infection in humans, and is therefore considered a potential pandemic threat.

In Phase 3, an animal or human-animal influenza reassortant virus has caused sporadic cases or small clusters of disease in people, but has not resulted in human-to-human transmission sufficient to sustain community-level outbreaks. Limited human-to-human transmission may occur under some circumstances, for example, when there is close contact between an infected person and an unprotected caregiver. However, limited transmission under such restricted circumstances does not indicate that the virus has gained the level of transmissibility among humans necessary to cause a pandemic.

Phase 4 is characterized by verified human-to-human transmission of an animal or human-animal influenza reassortant virus able to cause “community-level outbreaks.” The ability to cause sustained disease outbreaks in a community marks a significant upwards shift in the risk for a pandemic. Any country that suspects or has verified such an event should urgently consult with WHO so that the situation can be jointly assessed and a decision made by the affected country if implementation of a rapid pandemic containment operation is warranted. Phase 4 indicates a significant increase in risk of a pandemic but does not necessarily mean that a pandemic is a forgone conclusion.

Phase 5 is characterized by human-to-human spread of the virus into at least two countries in one WHO region. While most countries will not be affected at this stage, the declaration of Phase 5 is a strong signal that a pandemic is imminent and that the time to finalize the organization, communication, and implementation of the planned mitigation measures is short.

Phase 6, the pandemic phase, is characterized by community level outbreaks in at least one other country in a different WHO region in addition to the criteria defined in Phase 5. Designation of this phase will indicate that a global pandemic is under way.

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/phase/en/index.html
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MorningGlow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Ah HAH
Yes, that does make sense now. It's not so much the contact as how widespread it is--I get it now. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it! :hi:
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #85
114. You are very welcome! that was a great question and made me think about it too!
:hi:
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #83
93. Phase 4 is bad, then. At Phase 4 the virus is being transmitted from humans to humans.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Exactly, the alert system was designed for FLU (and other diseases)
in the early 2000s

It was a revision from an earlier one

Usually most outbreaks don't go there.

All countries should also have a response plan...

And so far I am seeing textbook for both the US and Mexico (well for Mexico there will be some finger pointing later on for the first two weeks, but that's for the future... , and also kind of understandable. In the beginning they thought it was unusual to see the uptick in flu cases, but they believed it was the run of the mill)
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. It's a little like people's reactions to Y2K. The government and industries did a good job
so people assumed that there was never a problem.

If efforts to control this disease work, then a lot of people will laugh derisively and assume that it was all a take-in. If the efforts don't work, and it turns into a pandemic, then nobody is going to take pleasure in saying "I told you so."

Right now the best thing for most of us to do is respond calmly, take precautions if we have compromised immune systems, remember to wash our hands frequently, and let the epidemiologists monitor the disease.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #99
108. Human nature truly
textbook human nature
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #108
117. On one hand we had shrub and Katrina and now we have a new leadership that's prepared
when the Obama administration went to a level of emergency, in so doing they also allowed something like 120,000 anti-viral treatments to be ear marked for any States that might need them. That is planning.

Preparedness is the right thing to do. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
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Creena Donating Member (501 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
71. Question...
I usually head out to a farmer's market on Saturday where much of the produce comes from the San Diego and Imperial Counties, specifically near two clusters of confirmed swine flu cases. Is skipping the market paranoia or precautionary?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Up to you
me personally I will reduce my exposure to masses of people

But then again, I do have a medical condition that doing that is intelligent

So far, they are not ordering, or even suggesting, home bound quarantines, which is what you are suggesting

That said, it is not in the produce... but your coughing neighbor, who mind you, might be coughing due to asthma or an allergy
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Creena Donating Member (501 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Thanks.
I have a compromised immune system, so that's why I was asking. I'm not worried so much about the produce, but the individuals bringing the stuff up. My friend lives next to the avocado guy and they had a neighbor go to the ER, so it put me on edge.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. If someone is immune compromised, then NB is spot on
why take a chance of exposure from someone from a county with confirmed places?

Or even large crowds in States that are higher risk? It's coughing and sneezing that's risky.

Take care and be well. :)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #78
90. Inmumo compromised, diabetes
take care... and yes, I'd stay away from crowds at this point... just common sense

Incidentally yesterday I got my canned goods... I do that every six months anyway... but this was one reason
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. It's your call. No fatalities in the US, so far.
But, I would probably skip it and see what happens this next week or so.
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City of Mills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
79. Two possible cases in my hometown
A couple of middle school kids with flu-like symptoms after traveling to Mexico...fantastic! Samples being sent to CDC...
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #79
122. Eight HS girls in NY back from Vac. in Mexico, have it.
The school was closed, this was on the news last night.
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Pithy Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
84. thank you
nadin, for posting the updates. Keep them coming - I'm not panicked but do want to stay informed. Your medical background makes your posts even more thoughtful and resonating.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. You welcome, but others also deserve the kudos fer trying to keep people informed
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #91
121. NB, you and others posting factual info. are doing DU a service.
Thank you.

Preparedness is the best thing. Hopefully this one passes us by.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
115. This is interesting news, but WHO raised the alert level? n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #115
123. Hubby made the same joke... world health organization
:-)
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #115
124. You kidder you! Everyone knows.
The Who's of Who-ville. :rofl:
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
136. OK, I give up. Who? n/t
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
140. Some facts, updates and an overview, also a great map link.
The data from Forbes came by way of another thread here on DU.

The notable information there is that this virus, new to humans, has spread from Mexico to across the globe in just fourteen days.

The virulence of the H1N1 virus appears variable at first glance. The mortality rate appears to be higher in Mexico than the US. However, the data shows that, by comparison Mexico has had 1,995 people who have been hospitalized with serious cases of pneumonia since the first case of swine flu was reported on April 13 while the US has had only 40 confirmed cases. Of those 149 who have died in Mexico, 20 cases were confirmed, the remainder are suspected of death from swine flu.

The word “suspected” has come under scrutiny as apparently viral and pathologic studies have not been completed and the results are awaited. The word “suspected” to have died of H1N1 viral infection means that there is a reasonable degree of medical probability that the virus in question was causative, as opposed to other causes of pneumonia, clearly they are being cautious and await final confirmation. However, in the meantime, these patients would have undergone extensive laboratory testing, chest x-rays, bronchial lavage, cultures, gram stains among other studies, to rule out other causes of pulmonary infection, sepsis or respiratory failure.

The clustering of a relatively large number of people with aseasonal flu symptoms has led to this being reported and monitored by WHO and shared with national health authorities. In the US that is the CDC. The CDC has now reported 40 confirmed infections in the US. No one has died of this in the US, on the other hand since the infection rate in absolute numbers is low, only 40, as compared to almost 2,000 in Mexico, I am not certain that we can actually say much about the pathogenicity of the H1N1 virus in the US. BTW- as of Saturday, the infection rate in the US was at 14 people.

There is something about this virus, it’s newness, which means there is no vaccine known at this time to cover this pathogen, the use of antiviral medication efficacy is unknown, it’s rapid spread across the world, albeit in small numbers, but rather widely dispersed in just two weeks has led national and international health care authorities in an abundance of caution to do a number of things.

In addition, to providing travel advisories, tips on maintaining sanitary practices, some regions use masks to protect from aerosolized viral spread such as coughing and sneezing, there has been close monitoring by WHO and the CDC, and today WHO raised from a Phase3 to a phase4 level status, while in the US Secretary of the Department Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, declared a public health emergency in the United States and “the CDC's Division of the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) is releasing one-quarter of its antiviral drugs, personal protective equipment, and respiratory protection devices to help states respond to the outbreak.”



The take home message here is that this is a somewhat unique situation that is being well monitored and the public rightfully want to know as much about it as possible to remain well informed.

In the meantime, remember that:

On Sunday morning’s press briefing, members of the Obama administration referred to this as a “pre-pandemic,” and not a pandemic.

The WHO has stated that “Phase 4 indicates a significant increase in risk of a pandemic but does not necessarily mean that a pandemic is a forgone conclusion.”

There is no reason for any response other than remaining well informed about the guidelines for prevention and personal and family safety and monitoring this matter as it develops.

.............

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/04/27/ap6343467.html

Associated Press
Mexico: Suspected swine flu deaths climb to 149
Associated Press, 04.27.09, 01:42 PM EDT

..the suspected death toll has climbed to 149,

20 of those cases confirmed to be from swine flu

the government was awaiting tests results on the rest.

He says 1,995 people have been hospitalized with serious cases of pneumonia since the first case of swine flu was reported on April 13.

The government does not yet know how many were swine flu.

Of those hospitalized, 1,070 have been released.

Mexico's government is ordering closed schools nationwide as the suspected death toll from swine flu climbed to 149.

..........
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/

State # of laboratory
confirmed cases
California 7 cases
Kansas 2 cases
New York City 28 cases
Ohio 1 case
Texas 2 cases
TOTAL COUNT 40 cases
International Human Cases of Swine Flu Infection

CDC activated its Emergency Operations Center to coordinate the agency's response to this emerging health threat and yesterday the Secretary of the Department Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano, declared a public health emergency in the United States. This will allow funds to be released to support the public health response. CDC's goals during this public health emergency are to reduce transmission and illness severity, and provide information to assist health care providers, public health officials and the public in addressing the challenges posed by this newly identified influenza virus. To this end, CDC has issued a number of interim guidance documents in the past 24 hours. In addition, CDC's Division of the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) is releasing one-quarter of its antiviral drugs, personal protective equipment, and respiratory protection devices to help states respond to the outbreak. Laboratory testing has found the swine influenza A (H1N1) virus susceptible to the prescription antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir. This is a rapidly evolving situation and CDC will provide updated guidance and new information as it becomes available.

............
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/statements/2009/h1n1_20090427/en/index.html

On the advice of the Committee, the WHO Director-General decided on the following.

The Director-General has raised the level of influenza pandemic alert from the current phase 3 to phase 4.

The change to a higher phase of pandemic alert indicates that the likelihood of a pandemic has increased, but not that a pandemic is inevitable.

As further information becomes available, WHO may decide to either revert to phase 3 or raise the level of alert to another phase.

This decision was based primarily on epidemiological data demonstrating human-to-human transmission and the ability of the virus to cause community-level outbreaks.

Given the widespread presence of the virus, the Director-General considered that containment of the outbreak is not feasible. The current focus should be on mitigation measures.

The Director-General recommended not to close borders and not to restrict international travel. It was considered prudent for people who are ill to delay international travel and for people developing symptoms following international travel to seek medical attention.

The Director-General considered that production of seasonal influenza vaccine should continue at this time, subject to re-evaluation as the situation evolves. WHO will facilitate the process needed to develop a vaccine effective against A/H1N1 virus.

The Director-General stressed that all measures should conform with the purpose and scope of the International Health Regulations.

..............
Great updated map and stats.

http://www.idemc.org/index.php?area=
...........

Source: WHO.

In nature, influenza viruses circulate continuously among animals, especially birds. Even though such viruses might theoretically develop into pandemic viruses, in Phase 1 no viruses circulating among animals have been reported to cause infections in humans.

In Phase 2 an animal influenza virus circulating among domesticated or wild animals is known to have caused infection in humans, and is therefore considered a potential pandemic threat.

In Phase 3, an animal or human-animal influenza reassortant virus has caused sporadic cases or small clusters of disease in people, but has not resulted in human-to-human transmission sufficient to sustain community-level outbreaks. Limited human-to-human transmission may occur under some circumstances, for example, when there is close contact between an infected person and an unprotected caregiver. However, limited transmission under such restricted circumstances does not indicate that the virus has gained the level of transmissibility among humans necessary to cause a pandemic.

Phase 4 is characterized by verified human-to-human transmission of an animal or human-animal influenza reassortant virus able to cause “community-level outbreaks.” The ability to cause sustained disease outbreaks in a community marks a significant upwards shift in the risk for a pandemic. Any country that suspects or has verified such an event should urgently consult with WHO so that the situation can be jointly assessed and a decision made by the affected country if implementation of a rapid pandemic containment operation is warranted. Phase 4 indicates a significant increase in risk of a pandemic but does not necessarily mean that a pandemic is a forgone conclusion.

Phase 5 is characterized by human-to-human spread of the virus into at least two countries in one WHO region. While most countries will not be affected at this stage, the declaration of Phase 5 is a strong signal that a pandemic is imminent and that the time to finalize the organization, communication, and implementation of the planned mitigation measures is short.

Phase 6, the pandemic phase, is characterized by community level outbreaks in at least one other country in a different WHO region in addition to the criteria defined in Phase 5. Designation of this phase will indicate that a global pandemic is under way.








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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #140
153. Thanks bluedawg and the OP for all the good info today.
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 11:56 PM by Starry Messenger
I didn't realize until this evening that we had seen the disease in out here in California. My students were concerned about it today and I didn't know much, so I'm happy to be armed with some facts.

edit: left out word
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #153
154. You're very welcome. People are concerned and information is their right.
For those who want the information, it should be available.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #154
156. I should add some of us are hunting for the info
so others can have it

But I am no end of info, and I suspect neither is any other involved in this

To me this is a public service, in a way


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #156
158. It's a public service, it's also a good preparation in the event there is a pandemic
Edited on Tue Apr-28-09 12:09 AM by bluedawg12
in the future, as hopfully, this one will die out, and it is an opportunity for people to learn more about medicine and science. It's great to see people talk about immunology, epidemiology, cytokines, VitD, hell, even elderberries. I may not agree with everyone's theories and my concern is that we not get caught up in false hopes rather than useful treatments, whatever that may be, but still, the idea of people talking about this is great and exciting and a chance for everyone to learn new material.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #158
160. I just wish people wanted to learn
I have

:-)

but for me one lesson has been never underestimate the will to hide head in sand sadly

The other has been more details about cytokine storms and just how little we really know

Socrates was right

The more I learn, the less I know


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #160
168. OK I'll explain cytokine storm.
Edited on Tue Apr-28-09 01:20 AM by bluedawg12
The bodies immune system is composed of several layers. There are actual cells like white blood cells and macrophages and then there a variety of chemicals that serve various functions, some directly related to inflammation called cytokines and chemokines.

Virally infected cells release cytokines and chemokines that attract other cells to help in immune response.

Cytokines are released from epithelial cells as in airways and lung tissue and also from the cells called macrophages ( the clean up crew). The greater the so called viral burden, the more of these are released. At some point they create more problems for the host tissue, ex: lungs, than they do for the virus.

When this happens, the inflammation in the lung tissues becomes the problem. So they say that viral load mediates cytokines, the greater the load the worst the outcome for the patient because the lungs get inflamed, congested, air exchange is impaired and people go into what is called ARDS or acute respiratory distress syndrome. These folks often go on ventilators to breath and exchange gases and they can get changes in their lungs seen on x-ray called ground glass appearance. These are usually considered to be very sick patients, they can die.

So, think of it like a bee sting. It's the immune response to the venom that is sometimes worst than the stinger and venom. The inflammation can be bad and if hypersensitive people get stung they can have a complete vascular collapse not from the little bee, but their own allergy.

I hope that helps. :hi:


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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #156
159. It is a public service.
For those of us without a lot of free time it's really helpful to have real people posting the pertinent info. It takes a while to sift around the different websites and put pieces together and if you don't know what to look for it is easy to get confused. This is a good thread.

Thank you. :)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #159
162. Thanks blushes
now you are in cali, most cases are for now, concentrated on border region, SD, Imperial and one more

But one case is in Sacramento

But keep your eyes peeled, this is a moving target until it starts to peter out

My judgement we are at the leading edge of the infection rate, which means you may see your school closed

We already did in some places
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
181. They have to work fast! The Sebelius nomination gets the vote tomorrow!
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
182. Why aren't they going further with the travel warnings?
We can't exactly get refunds for already booked trips without a more firm statement from the US. Carnival and other agencies are continuing with the itineraries as planned and people don't want to lose their money!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #182
201. Cruise ships are no longer docking in the riviera, at least Carnival
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #182
212. This may help.
I would think that monitoring the CDC for updates is a good source. It looks like it depends on the destination.

http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/contentSwineFluTravel.aspx

Announcement
Risk of Swine Flu Associated with Travel to Affected Areas
This information is current as of today, April 29, 2009 at 13:25 EDT
Released: April 26, 2009

Public health officials within the United States and throughout the world are investigating outbreaks of swine influenza (swine flu).

Swine flu is a respiratory disease of pigs caused by a type A influenza virus that regularly causes outbreaks of influenza among pigs. Swine flu viruses do not normally infect humans; however, human infections with swine flu do occur. Public health officials have determined that this strain of swine flu virus spreads from human to human and can cause illness.

The outbreak is ongoing and additional cases are expected. For more information concerning swine flu infection, please see the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website: http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/. For specific information on travel precautions and an update on the affected areas, please visit: www.cdc.gov/travel.

......

http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/contentSwineFluMexico.aspx

Travel Health Warning
Travel Warning: Swine Influenza and Severe Cases of Respiratory Illness in Mexico — Avoid Nonessential Travel to Mexico
This information is current as of today, April 29, 2009 at 13:27 EDT
Updated: April 27, 2009

Current Situation
As of April 27, 2009, the Government of Mexico has reported 18 laboratory confirmed human cases of swine influenza A/H1N1 infection. Investigation is continuing to clarify the spread and severity of the disease in Mexico. Suspect clinical cases have been reported in 19 of the country's 32 states. The World Health Organization (WHO), the Global Alert and Response Network (GOARN), and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have sent experts to Mexico to work with health authorities. CDC has confirmed that seven of 14 respiratory specimens sent to CDC by the Mexican National Influenza Center are positive for swine influenza virus and are similar to the swine influenza viruses recently identified in the United States.

On April 25, the WHO Director-General declared this event a Public Health Emergency of International Concern under the rules of the International Health Regulations. CDC and state public and animal health authorities are currently investigating 20 cases of swine flu in humans in California, Texas, Kansas, Ohio, and New York City. Some of the U.S. cases have been linked to travel to Mexico. At this time, only two of the 20 cases in the U.S. have been hospitalized and all have recovered, but deaths are reported to have occurred in Mexico. CDC is concerned that continued travel by U.S. travelers to Mexico presents a serious risk for further outbreaks of swine flu in the United States.

CDC Recommendations
At this time, CDC recommends that U.S. travelers avoid all nonessential travel to Mexico. Changes to this recommendation will be posted at http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/.

Please check this site frequently for updates.

If you must travel to an area that has reported cases of swine flu:
Stay Informed
Check updates from the:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,
Secretaria de Salud,
World Health Organization
Monitor announcements from Mexico’s Ministry of Health and local government including information about affected areas, as not all areas are equally affected.
Follow local public health guidelines, including any movement restrictions and prevention recommendations.
Be aware that Mexico is checking all exiting airline passengers for signs of swine flu. Exit screening may cause significant delays at airports.
Prepare for your trip before you leave
Antiviral Medications: Travelers from the United States going to Mexico who are at high risk of severe illness from influenza (for example persons with chronic conditions such as diabetes, lung disease, heart disease, and the elderly, see www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/index.htm) are recommended to take antiviral medications for prevention of swine influenza during travel. The recommended antiviral drugs for swine influenza are oseltamivir (brand name Tamiflu®) and zanamivir (brand name Relenza®). Both are prescription drugs that fight against swine flu by keeping flu viruses from reproducing in the body. These drugs can prevent infection if taken as a preventative. Talk to your doctor about correct indications for using influenza antiviral medications. Always seek medical care if you are severely ill.

Antiviral chemoprophylaxis, or taking medicine to prevent flu viruses from reproducing in the body, (pre-exposure or post-exposure) is recommended for the following people:

Household close contacts who are at high risk for complications of influenza (for example, persons with certain chronic medical conditions and the elderly) of a confirmed or suspected case.
School-aged children who are at high risk for complications of influenza (for example, persons with certain chronic medical conditions) who had close contact (face-to-face) with a confirmed or suspected case.
Travelers to Mexico who are at high risk for complications of influenza (for example, persons with certain chronic medical conditions and the elderly).
Border workers (Mexico) who are at high risk for complications of influenza (for example, persons with certain chronic medical conditions and the elderly).
Health care workers or public health workers who had unprotected close contact with an ill confirmed case of swine influenza A (H1N1) virus infection during the ill person’s infectious period.
Antiviral chemoprophylaxis can be considered for the following:

Any health care worker who is at high risk for complications of influenza (for example, persons with certain chronic medical conditions and the elderly) who is working in an area with confirmed swine influenza A (H1N1) cases, and who is caring for patients with any acute febrile respiratory illness.
Persons who are not at high risk but who are travelers to Mexico or first responders or border workers who are working in areas with confirmed cases of swine influenza A (H1N1) virus infection.
Further information about CDC’s recommendations for antiviral use during the swine flu outbreak can be found at the following websites:

Healthcare professionals
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/recommendations.htm
General public
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/antiviral_swine.htm
For all travelers, CDC recommends the following steps to help you stay healthy:

Be sure you are up-to-date with all your routine vaccinations, including a seasonal influenza vaccine. The seasonal vaccine is not expected to offer protection against swine flu viruses, but it can protect against seasonal influenza viruses which may still be circulating in Mexico and the Southern Hemisphere.
Pack a travel health kit that contains basic first aid and medical supplies. See Pack Smart in Your Survival Guide to Safe and Healthy Travel for a list of what to include in your travel health kit.
Identify the health-care resources in the area(s) you will be visiting.
Check if your health insurance plan will cover you abroad. Consider purchasing additional insurance that covers medical evacuation in case you become sick. For more information, see Medical Information for Americans Traveling Abroad from the U.S. Department of State.
Remember that U.S. embassies, consulates and military facilities do not have the legal authority, capability, and resources to evacuate or to give medications, vaccines or medical care to private U.S. citizens overseas.
During your visit to an area affected by swine flu
Monitor the local situation
Pay attention to announcements from the local government
Follow local public health guidelines, including any movement restrictions and prevention recommendations
Practice healthy habits to help stop the spread of swine flu
Wash your hands often with soap and water. This removes germs from your skin and helps prevent diseases from spreading.
Use waterless alcohol-based hand gels (containing at least 60% alcohol) when soap is not available and hands are not visibly dirty.
Cover your mouth and nose with a tissue when you cough or sneeze and put your used tissue in a wastebasket.
If you don't have a tissue, cough or sneeze into your upper sleeve, not your hands.
Wash your hands after coughing or sneezing, using soap and water or an alcohol-based hand cleaner (with at least 60% alcohol) when soap and water are not available.
Avoid touching your eyes, nose, or mouth. Germs spread that way.
Try to avoid close contact with sick people. (Influenza is thought to spread mainly person-to-person through coughing or sneezing of infected people.)
It is important to follow the advice of local health and government authorities. You may be asked to restrict your movement and stay in your home to contain the spread of swine flu.
<snip>
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
187.  Interesting Look at How Infectious Disease Can Spread Via Travel.
This comes from a progressive forum called "Effcet Measure," that deals with public health matters. It has other good information.

This is pretty fascinating.


http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2009/04/swine_flus_ticket_to_ride.php
Swine flu's ticket to ride
Category: Epidemiology • Infectious disease • Influenza treatment • Pandemic preparedness • Public health preparedness • Surveillance • Swine flu
Posted on: April 26, 2009 11:20 AM, by revere

If there was ever a graphic illustration of how global interconnectedness affects public health, it's the swine flu affair. Wherever it started, the current crop of cases seems related to Mexico, either as the epicenter or via travelers. Four US states have cases. Those not on the Mexican border are related to travel to Mexico. Kansas, New York City, the suspect cases in secondary school teachers and students in Auckland, New Zealand just returned from Mexico. And France has two suspect cases also just returned from Mexico, as does Spain. We've discussed the problem of infectious disease on airplanes several times here (see this post). Surprisingly there are few documented cases in the medical literature (there's a good review by Mangili and Gendreau in Lancet. 2005 Mar 12-18;365(9463):989-96). There is at least one flu outbreak in 1979 caused by turning off the ventilation system in a plane full of military recruits while it sat on the runway (Moser et al., Am J Epidemiol. 1979 Jul;110(1):1-6).

Here's the abstract:

A jet airliner with 54 persons aboard was delayed on the ground for three hours because of engine failure during a takeoff attempt. Most passengers stayed on the airplane during the delay. Within 72 hours, 72 per cent of the passengers became ill with symptoms of cough, fever, fatigue, headache, sore throat and myalgia. One passenger, the apparent index case, was ill on the airplane, and the clinical attack rate among the others varied with the amount of time spent aboard. Virus antigenically similar to A/Texas/1/77(H3N2) was isolated from 8 of 31 passengers cultured, and 20 of 22 ill persons tested had serologic evidence of infection with this virus. The airplane ventilation system was inoperative during the delay and this may account for the high attack rate. (Moser et al., AJE)
With current air travel, no place is farther than a single incubation period for influenza. And no place is immune. While there aren't any pig farms in Israel, there could easily be swine flu. From Haaretz:

Authorities fear a case of swine flu may have made it to Israel after a 26-year-old Israeli who just returned from a trip to Mexico checked himself into the hospital reporting flu-like symptoms.
On Sunday, the Foreign Ministry urged Israeli nationals in Mexico and certain parts of the United States to exercise caution after the deadly swine flu strain killed up to 81 people in the central American country. (Haaretz)


Forget about local containment. Forget about border controls. They'll only make things worse. Swine flu has a ticket to ride. We should be putting all our efforts in managing the consequences.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #187
202. Forget about local containment. Forget about border controls. They'll only make things worse. Swine
This will mean a whole sale revision of national and NGO plans

When of course the finger pointing stops, and people realize we need to revise it
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #202
204. rate of new infection = dropping.
Edited on Wed Apr-29-09 12:15 AM by Hannah Bell
too bad, no quarantines & border stops for you!
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #204
205. Linky? n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #205
206. check the three ops in GD right now.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #202
211. CDC Press Briefing Transcripts 4-28-09
>> http://www.cdc.gov/media/transcripts/2009/t090428.htm

Press Briefing Transcripts
CDC Briefing on Public Health Investigation of Human Cases of Swine Influenza
April 28, 2009, 2:30 p.m. EST

>> Thank you, Cece Connolly from "The Washington Post." Can you tell us on if you have working hypotheses why the cases in Mexico have been so much severe. What do we know about either the sequencing there or the medical facilities or the underlying health of the population? Can you give us some of your working hypotheses?

>> You're hitting on them right there. And at this point we haven't been able to rule out or rule in any hypothesis. When you're looking at variation and impact of an infectious agent, you look at the host and see, okay, could there be host differences and why some people in Mexico are getting sicker than people here? You look at the pathogen, and you look at the virus itself and say, has the pathogen, has that virus changed as it's infected people in Mexico and is now infecting people here? And then you'll often look at the environment and the context in which the infection is occurring and seeing, has that had some modification on the impact? We're looking at all those things. So in terms of the host, you'll look at the immune status of individuals. You'll look at the age. You'll look at the gender and see if there's anything there that can shed some light. You look at the treatment practices and see is there a difference in either how these individuals self-treated when they had an infection, how long people took to seek care, and whether there was a longer delay to seeking treatment. What type of treatment was received when they came initially to the hospital? Was flu something they thought of? Did they quickly get an antiviral? Were there other treatments that were given alongside of that that could account for the differences? So those are some of the theories we're looking at. Looking at the virus and, you know, the idea that perhaps there's been a change in the virus would be a very comforting thing if we were able to find that to see that the virus was changing and becoming less virulent, less severe. Right now it's premature. We don't have any evidence of that, but that's one of the things that will be looked at. You'll look at the virus as it has -- what's called serial transmission. So if someone has that infection, they pass it on to somebody else, and somebody else. If you get viruses along the way and can look at those, that can give you a sense as to whether -- as it moves from person to person, it's changing, becoming less severe, more severe, or no change at all. And that is all very important information in trying to help us predict the course and guide the interventions that are undertaken.



<snip>

I see time and time again those messages of what people can do. Those are empowering. And at a time where there's a lot of uncertainty and a lot of concern, empowering people with those messages of what can you do is really an incredible public service...

I would say I'm very concerned...we are dealing with a new strain of influenza.

We're dealing with a strain of influenza that appears to be moving through our community. We have this documented in five states. We're very concerned. And because of that, we're acting very aggressively.

... With a new infectious agent, you don't sit back and wait and hope for the best. You take bold steps, and then you pull back if you need to.

We are in a pre-pandemic period.

And, you know, that gets to the what do you call this? And that isn't very relevant to us since we are an affected country. That terminology is much more relevant if you're seeing a cluster of infection somewhere else in the world, and you're wondering, is this something that's going to spread from country to country?

...What can we do to control it at our border from coming in here? ... This is a very different situation. And it's different because this virus is here in the United States. And so it changes our control strategies, and it changes our approach.

<snip>

When we look at global pandemic planning -- and again, we're in pre-pandemic phase four -- in global pandemic planning, the initial concept is if you could identify an outbreak in its first spot, where it was first kicking off, you could send in teams and try and quench it, try and contain it, try and knock it out. And that's been a lot of our strategy around avian influenza, with surveillance, trying to look and investigate every cluster that's been taking place around the globe. That is not a feasible strategy here. And it's not a feasible strategy because by the time this is identified, we're already seeing this in a very diffuse, very wide geographic area. We're hearing of cases from many different parts of Mexico. We have five states with confirmed cases here. And we're hearing of many countries around the globe that have suspect cases. And so the idea of containment, meaning keeping it to one little place, is not feasible. This is a virus that spreads easily, person to person. Influenza viruses, in general, again, we're learning more about this virus, but they spread easily from person to person. And in general, they can spread before a person is symptomatic. Again, here we need to look at the transmission with this particular virus. I wanted to give answers to two questions that I received earlier. The earliest onset date for a case here was March 28th. The latest onset date for a confirmed case in the United States is April 24th. But, again, there's ongoing work, and we don't have any evidence that there's not been transmission since April 24th. If we're looking at an incubation period of about two days, there's a lag time before cases will present. And then the question about vaccine feed, it has not gone to the manufacturers at this point.


<snip>
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
207. CDC 4-29-09 Latest Stats. The outbreak "continues to grow."
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/
Swine Flu website last updated April 29, 11:00 AM ET

The outbreak of disease in people caused by a new influenza virus of swine origin continues to grow in the United States and internationally. Today, CDC reports additional confirmed human infections, hospitalizations and the nation’s first fatality from this outbreak. The more recent illnesses and the reported death suggest that a pattern of more severe illness associated with this virus may be emerging in the U.S. Most people will not have immunity to this new virus and, as it continues to spread, more cases, more hospitalizations and more deaths are expected in the coming days and weeks.

CDC has implemented its emergency response. The agency’s goals are to reduce transmission and illness severity, and provide information to help health care providers, public health officials and the public address the challenges posed by the new virus. Yesterday, CDC issued new interim guidance for clinicians on how to care for children and pregnant women who may be infected with this virus. Young children and pregnant women are two groups of people who are at high risk of serious complications from seasonal influenza. In addition, CDC’s Division of the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) continues to send antiviral drugs, personal protective equipment, and respiratory protection devices to all 50 states and U.S. territories to help them respond to the outbreak. The swine influenza A (H1N1) virus is susceptible to the prescription antiviral drugs oseltamivir and zanamivir. This is a rapidly evolving situation and CDC will provide updated guidance and new information as it becomes available.


U.S. Human Cases of Swine Flu Infection
(As of April 29, 2009, 11:00 AM ET) States # of laboratory confirmed cases Deaths
Arizona 1
California 14
Indiana 1
Kansas 2
Massachusetts 2
Michigan 2
Nevada 1
New York City 51
Ohio 1
Texas 16 1
TOTAL COUNTS 91 cases 1 death
..............
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu /
U.S. Human Cases of Swine Flu Infection
(As of April 28, 2009 11:00 AM ET)
State # of laboratory
confirmed cases
California 10 cases
Kansas 2 cases
New York City 45 cases
Ohio 1 case
Texas 6 cases
TOTAL COUNT 64 cases
..........

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu /
April 27, 2009
State # of laboratory
confirmed cases
California 7 cases
Kansas 2 cases
New York City 28 cases
Ohio 1 case
Texas 2 cases
TOTAL COUNT 40 cases
.................

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/investigation.htm
April 25, 2009 19:30 EDT
U.S. Human Cases of Swine Flu Infection
As of April 25th, 2009 7:30 p.m. EDT
State # of laboratory
confirmed cases
California 7 cases
Texas 2 cases
Kansas 2 cases
TOTAL COUNT 11 cases



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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
208. W.H.O. to meet today for update, here's summary of their data.
http://www.idemc.org/read/index.php?pageid=news_read&news_id=20

WHO, Geneva, 29.04.2009 14:28:41
As the swine flu situation continues to worsen, the World Health Organization's (WHO's) Emergency Committee will meet for a third time to reassess the pandemic alert level, a WHO spokesman said on Wednesday. "I'm just trying to find out whether the committee will convene today or tomorrow," spokesman Gregory Hartl said.
Some media reports said the committee, composed of international experts, will meet late on Wednesday, but Hartl declined to confirm the date. Following an advice from the Emergency Committee, the WHO raised the alert level from Phase 3 to Phase 4 on Monday, indicating a significant increase in the risk of a pandemic. A further rise to Phase 5 will mean a pandemic is imminent. Meanwhile, a scientific review is underway in the WHO on Wednesday in response to requests from the scientific community for more detailed scientific information on swine influenza. Experts from the affected countries, including Mexico and the United States will provide an update on the current situation and discuss what is known about the disease from a virological, epidemiological and clinical perspective, a WHO statement said. A report from the review will be posted on the WHO swine influenza page shortly after the meeting.
............

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_27/en/index.html

27 April 2009 -- The current situation regarding the outbreak of swine influenza A(H1N1) is evolving rapidly.

As of 27 April 2009, the United States Government has reported 40 laboratory confirmed human cases of swine influenza A(H1N1), with no deaths.

Mexico has reported 26 confirmed human cases of infection with the same virus, including seven deaths.

Canada has reported six cases, with no deaths, while Spain has reported one case, with no deaths.
.................

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_28/en/index.html

Swine influenza - update 4
28 April 2009--The situation continues to evolve rapidly. As of 19:15 GMT, 28 April 2009, seven countries have officially reported cases of swine influenza A/H1N1 infection.
The United States Government has reported 64 laboratory confirmed human cases, with no deaths.
Mexico has reported 26 confirmed human cases of infection including seven deaths.

The following countries have reported laboratory confirmed cases with no deaths - Canada (6), New Zealand (3), the United Kingdom (2), Israel (2) and Spain (2).

Further information on the situation will be available on the WHO website on a regular basis.

WHO advises no restriction of regular travel or closure of borders. It is considered prudent for people who are ill to delay international travel and for people developing symptoms following international travel to seek medical attention, in line with guidance from national authorities.

There is also no risk of infection from this virus from consumption of well-cooked pork and pork products. Individuals are advised to wash hands thoroughly with soap and water on a regular basis and should seek medical attention if they develop any symptoms of influenza-like illness.
................


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
209. CDC Health Update: Interim Guidance—Children and Pregnant Women

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/HAN/042809.htm
CDC Health Update: Interim Guidance—Children and Pregnant Women who may be Infected with Swine-Origin Influenza Virus: Considerations for Clinicians
Distributed via Health Alert Network
April 28, 2009 23:45 EST (11:45 PM EST)
CDCHAN-00285-09-04-28-UPD-N

Today CDC issued new interim guidance for clinicians on how to care for children and pregnant women who may be infected with a new influenza virus of swine origin that is spreading in the U.S. and internationally. Children and pregnant women are two groups of people who are at high risk of serious complications from seasonal influenza.

New Interim Clinical Guidance for the Treatment of Children
Little is currently known about how swine-origin influenza viruses (S-OIV) may affect children. However, we know from seasonal influenza and past pandemics that young children, especially those younger than 5 years of age and children who have high risk medical conditions, are at increased risk of influenza-related complications.

Illnesses caused by influenza virus infection are difficult to distinguish from illnesses caused by other respiratory pathogens based on symptoms alone. Young children are less likely to have typical influenza symptoms (e.g., fever and cough) and infants may present to medical care with fever and lethargy, and may not have cough or other respiratory symptoms or signs.

The new interim guidance for clinicians on the prevention and treatment of swine influenza in young children is available at http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/childrentreatment.htm

New Interim Clinical Guidance for the Treatment of Pregnant Women
Evidence that influenza can be more severe in pregnant women comes from observations during previous pandemics and from studies among pregnant women who had seasonal influenza. An excess of influenza-associated deaths among pregnant women were reported during the pandemics of 1918–1919 and 1957–1958. Adverse pregnancy outcomes have been reported following previous influenza pandemics, with increased rates of spontaneous abortion and preterm birth reported, especially among women with pneumonia. Case reports and several epidemiologic studies conducted during interpandemic periods also indicate that pregnancy increases the risk for influenza complications for the mother and might increase the risk for adverse perinatal outcomes or delivery complications.

The new interim guidance for clinicians for the treatment of influenza in pregnant women is available at http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/clinician_pregnant.htm

Background
Human infections with the newly identified S-OIV that is spreading among humans were first identified in April 2009 with cases in the United States and Mexico. The epidemiology and clinical presentations of these infections are currently under investigation. There are insufficient data available at this point to determine who is at higher risk for complications of S-OIV infection. However because pregnant women and children are known to be at higher risk for complications during seasonal influenza complications and during prior pandemics, it is reasonable to assume that these groups of people may be at higher risk for complications from infection with this new virus.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
213. From a progressive public health forum: Putting a face on those numbers.
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/

4-29-09

>>Swine flu: just a statistic
Category: Child health • Swine flu

The first death in the US from swine flu in a Texas toddler is being widely reported, but a piece just in from Bloomberg says the infection was acquired in Mexico:

The first confirmed U.S. swine flu death was a 22-month-old child from Mexico, according to a Houston official.
The toddler was brought to Houston for medical care last weekend and died on Monday, Kathy Barton, spokeswoman for the Houston Department of Health and Human Services said today in an interview. (Mary Schlangenstein, Bloomberg)


The national origin of the victim is of some epidemiological import but irrelevant to the human tragedy. The news that a previously healthy 22 month old died from this virus put a human face on the outbreak, even if we don't know the baby's name. I have a 23 month old grandson, and while I can at times become hardened to news like this (regrettably), my daughter was very distressed. In place of "22 month old in Texas" she automatically substituted the face of her own little one. There was both fear and profound empathy in her reaction.

Some of the fear will be lessened by the new knowledge that the baby contracted the disease in another country. The empathy remains, as it should. Mexican babies are still babies, loved by their parents and grandparents even while being hostages to fortune like everyone.

As this outbreak moves forward we will be barraged by numbers and statistics. This is a form of spectator sport to which we have become accustomed. We follow baseball, the Dow Jones and public opinion polls.

But these numbers are different. As the late epidemiologist Irving Selikoff once remarked about the horrific toll of asbestos victims, "death statistics are people with the tears wiped away.<<


Swine flu: pictures, big and little
Category: Epidemiology • Infectious disease • Influenza treatment • Pandemic preparedness • Public health preparedness • Surveillance • Swine flu • Zoonoses

As is usual (routine? no, nothing routine about this) in an evolving epidemic contradictory and confusing numbers are appearing. Some of them are the result of information lags (tallies not being updated), some are the result of using different criteria for counting (suspect versus probable versus lab confirmed, etc.), some are just rumors. WHO is saying that in Mexico there are only 7 confirmed deaths, 19 more lab confirmed cases, 159 probable cases and some 1300 being evaluated, based on official reporting to them by officials of a member state, the Mexico. Everyone knows there are many more cases, however, so the WHO related reporting is more confusing than informative. CDC says there are 91 confirmed cases in the US on their swine flu page but 64 cases on the CDC home page as of 12:30 pm ET, 4/29). That's an information lag, within the same agency. The fact that there are more confirmed cases in the US than Mexico is not a reflection of how many cases are really in each place but how they are being recognized, confirmed, counted and updated.

It's not just lay people who are confused. The scientists don't seem to be on the same page all the time, either. The sequences have been published on the web and a scientist who has taken a hard look at them sees only swine sequences, not swine, bird and human as CDC announced originally:

The preliminary analysis using all the sequences in public databases (NCBI) suggests that all segments are of swine origin. NA and MP seem related to Asian/European swine and the rest to North American swine (H1N2 and H3N2 swine viruses isolated since 1998). There is also interesting substratification between these groups, suggesting a multiple reassortment.
We are puzzled about sources of information that affirm that the virus is a reassortment of avian, human and swine viruses. It is true that the H3N2 swine virus from 1998 and 1999 is a triple reassortant, but all the related isolates are found since then in swine. (Raul Rabadan, Columbia University via ProMed)


With fast moving events it is quite understandable that early ideas would be revised, but when CDC's Dr. Anne Schuchat was asked point blank by a reporter at the Monday briefing if she could tell us which segments were human she gave a one word answer, "no." She then moved on to another question, so it wasn't clear whether she was refusing to answer or just didn't know. If CDC erred in this, as looks might be the case, the simplest thing would be to clear the record immediately and move on. This information isn't likely to make much difference in actions on the ground. An agency is much more credible when it acknowledges mistakes matter of factly (Obama is a master at this).

What's the take home message? We should stop fixating on hourly changes in numbers or differences about the sequences and keep our eye on the Big Picture. Right now that picture is still cloudy, but will be coming into sharper focus as new information accrues and is organized. Generally, though, we have a novel virus (in the sense that the human population is immunologically naive to it) that is spreading person to person and seems to have clinical characteristics not unlike usual seasonal influenza. Because of its novelty the number of people it could make sick is potentially far greater than a seasonal virus, however, since there is no naturally acquired immunity we know of at the moment (it may turn out there is some cross reactivity with some other strain from years past but so far we have no evidence of that).

As a Big Picture, it's not the most comforting, whatever the day to day numbers.

<<



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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
214. Todya's WHO Update. No change, pandemic alert is 4.
WHO

No change: The current WHO phase of pandemic alert is 4.


http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_27/en/index.html

27 April 2009 -- The current situation regarding the outbreak of swine influenza A(H1N1) is evolving rapidly.

As of 27 April 2009, the United States Government has reported 40 laboratory confirmed human cases of swine influenza A(H1N1), with no deaths.

Mexico has reported 26 confirmed human cases of infection with the same virus, including seven deaths.

Canada has reported six cases, with no deaths, while Spain has reported one case, with no deaths.
.................

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_28/en/index.html

Swine influenza - update 4
28 April 2009--The situation continues to evolve rapidly. As of 19:15 GMT, 28 April 2009, seven countries have officially reported cases of swine influenza A/H1N1 infection.
The United States Government has reported 64 laboratory confirmed human cases, with no deaths.
Mexico has reported 26 confirmed human cases of infection including seven deaths.

The following countries have reported laboratory confirmed cases with no deaths - Canada (6), New Zealand (3), the United Kingdom (2), Israel (2) and Spain (2).

Further information on the situation will be available on the WHO website on a regular basis.

WHO advises no restriction of regular travel or closure of borders. It is considered prudent for people who are ill to delay international travel and for people developing symptoms following international travel to seek medical attention, in line with guidance from national authorities.

There is also no risk of infection from this virus from consumption of well-cooked pork and pork products. Individuals are advised to wash hands thoroughly with soap and water on a regular basis and should seek medical attention if they develop any symptoms of influenza-like illness.
................

http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_04_29/en/index.html

Swine influenza - update 5
29 April 2009 -- The situation continues to evolve rapidly. As of 18:00 GMT, 29 April 2009, nine countries have officially reported 148 cases of swine influenza A/H1N1 infection. The United States Government has reported 91 laboratory confirmed human cases, with one death. Mexico has reported 26 confirmed human cases of infection including seven deaths.

The following countries have reported laboratory confirmed cases with no deaths - Austria (1), Canada (13), Germany (3), Israel (2), New Zealand (3), Spain (4) and the United Kingdom (5).

Further information on the situation will be available on the WHO website on a regular basis.

WHO advises no restriction of regular travel or closure of borders. It is considered prudent for people who are ill to delay international travel and for people developing symptoms following international travel to seek medical attention, in line with guidance from national authorities.

There is also no risk of infection from this virus from consumption of well-cooked pork and pork products. Individuals are advised to wash hands thoroughly with soap and water on a regular basis and should seek medical attention if they develop any symptoms of influenza-like illness.

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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
215. Bloomberg News: Pres. Obama, Sec. Sebelius & quotes from US officials
These are just snips, the full article has more info on what other nations are doing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXZ7s4f9bkCM&refer=<br%20/>home

Swine Flu Kills Child in Texas as Virus Spreads (Update3)

By Tom Randall

April 29 (Bloomberg) --

Swine flu killed a child in the U.S. and was confirmed in eight countries and 11 U.S. states as health officials in Geneva and Washington said spread of the virus is unlikely to stop.

President Barack Obama asked Congress for $1.5 billion to brace for an outbreak and warned parents to prepare for school closings.

Development of a vaccine is being speeded, U.S. officials said.

“This is obviously a serious situation -- serious enough to take the utmost precautions,” Obama said today at the White House. “We are closely and continuously monitoring the emerging cases of this throughout the United States.”

Obama said local officials should consider closing schools where flu cases are suspected and parents should plan for contingencies.

Texas Governor Rick Perry declared a disaster, a “preemptive” measure to facilitate emergency preparations and seek federal reimbursement.

<snip>

At P.S. 177, a public school for autistic children, 82 students have called in sick, and six students are being tested at Ascension school in Manhattan’s Upper West Side, Mayor Michael Bloomberg told reporters yesterday.

<snip>


The U.S. can expect hospitalizations and more deaths, Kathleen Sebelius said today in her first press conference after being confirmed secretary of Health and Human Services. Hand- washing and hygiene are among the most effective ways to control the outbreak, she said.

Businesses and schools should plan for a pandemic, Richard Besser, acting head of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said.


Two other people, a woman in Brooklyn and a boy in the Bronx, were hospitalized with suspected cases associated with travel to Mexico, Bloomberg said.

<snip>

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Obama requested more money yesterday to help build stockpiles of anti- viral drugs, work on vaccines and coordinate the U.S. response with other governments.

The money is meant “to ensure we have the resources available” at federal, state and local levels to deal with any wider spread of the virus, Gibbs said.

<snip>

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency to help the most populous U.S. state with 37 million people prepare for an outbreak. Schwarzenegger ordered state agencies to use whatever government personnel, equipment and facilities needed to help the health department. He also authorized the agency, along with the state’s Emergency Medical Services Authority, to enter contracts with private companies without competitive bids.

<snip>

U.S. officials recommended that nonessential travel to Mexico be avoided and the European Union told travelers to avoid outbreak areas. Malaysia today asked the WHO to ban outbound travel from Mexico by people who are ill.

<snip>
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid urged calm. He said a vaccine will likely be developed by the time next flu season starts in North America.

<snip>

An experimental vaccine for swine flu may be tested in people within a couple of months, according to Anthony Fauci, director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Reference strains for the virus have been distributed and a pre-planned development process is under way, Fauci said at a press conference today in Washington.
<snip>

Scientists are trying to determine why swine flu, a respiratory disease of pigs caused by a type-A influenza virus, has been more severe in Mexico. The disease results in symptoms similar to those of seasonal influenza, such as fever, lethargy and coughing, and may also cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea, according to the CDC.

<snip>

The World Bank, in a worst-case scenario published in October, said a flu pandemic that’s similar in scope to the 1918 outbreak known as the Spanish flu could kill 71 million people worldwide and push the economy into a “major global recession” costing more than $3 trillion.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration signed emergency authorizations April 27 that will permit the CDC to use an unapproved lab test for swine flu and more dosing options than currently recommended for influenza treatments Tamiflu, sold by Swiss drugmaker Roche Holding AG, and Relenza, from London-based GlaxoSmithKline Plc.

<snip>


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 03:53 PM
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216. Discussion and new info moved to:
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