More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops

[varun]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27atheist.html?_r=1&hp

CHARLESTON, S.C. — Two months after the local atheist organization here put up a billboard saying “Don’t Believe in God? You Are Not Alone,” the group’s 13 board members met in Laura and Alex Kasman’s living room to grapple with the fallout.

The problem was not that the group, the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry, had attracted an outpouring of hostility. It was the opposite. An overflow audience of more than 100 had showed up for their most recent public symposium, and the board members discussed whether it was time to find a larger place.

And now parents were coming out of the woodwork asking for family-oriented programs where they could meet like-minded nonbelievers.

“Is everyone in favor of sponsoring a picnic for humanists with families?” asked the board president, Jonathan Lamb, a 27-year-old meteorologist, eliciting a chorus of “ayes.” ...

[Joe the Revelator]

1. I have a problem with Atheism turning into a religion

There is some irony there.

[elleng]

4. Thats people!

Social animals!

I'm lucky tho; few would probably want to join 'Always Agnostics!'

:rofl:

[Occam Bandage]

22. "First Church of Agnosticism may have a meeting on the 4th of March."

"Though we admit the evidence is not in favor of such a meeting occurring--and in fact there is no evidence for any sort of meeting in March--the fact remains that there is no evidence against a meeting either, and it would be unsupported to declare either belief or disbelief in whether we are going to have a meeting on the 4th of March."

[elleng]

29. Hey, Occ's!

I think you've violated your rule!!!!

[jberryhill]

69. Try scheduling a Procrastinator's Anonymous meeting sometime...

I still have that on my to-do list.

[Skidmore]

66. People herds....

always turning, milling, and turning.

[LuvNewcastle]

6. It looks that way, but maybe

these people are just seeking out like-minded people to communicate with. I think that's what most churches are about -- I don't think it's really about God with most of them. It's networking.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

90. Its not at all

But that is the counterargument that many Christians and other believers use against Atheists when they have organizations. "See you are organizing, you are just a church like we are". The position holds no water, because the problem Atheists have with churches isn't that they get together every Sunday with likeminded people, it is that they believe in a supreme being. I was disappointed a few weeks ago when Thom Hartmann had Christopher Hitchens on and used this same arguement. He questioned the modern Atheist movement saying that "Isn't Atheism just another religion"? Christopher Hitchens just kind of laughed it off, which is perfectly reasonable because it is sort of silly.

[drm604]

7. Forming a group is not the same as turning into a religion.

Atheism is, by definition, not a religion.

[Occam Bandage]

23. It depends on how you define "religion."

I would take a sociological definition of religion, in which religions are naturally occurring self-replicating social organizations, in which adherence to a shared moral/theological foundation is the primary means of self-identification.

Atheism is by definition not a religious belief--but not all things which are atheist are not religions. Buddhism is both atheist and a religion, after all. I think this secular humanist organization is perhaps approaching that status.

[drm604]

67. Most people think of religion as including a supernatural component.

Calling atheism a religion is a fundamentalist talking point used in attempts to gain equivalence in things like science education. We shouldn't feed this meme.

[KittyWampus]

78. it's not a fundamentalist talking point. It's an uncomfortable fact. And your contention

"most people think of religion as including a supernatural component" puts the lie to your prejudice.

I'd say most people think of religion as either a means of finding comfort in what appears to be a cold world or a way to finding meaning in their lives.

That you obsess on "supernatural" says volumes about your mindset.

[Fumesucker]

79. Religions have creeds, dogmas, scripture, hierarchy and so forth..

Atheism has none of that.

[MedleyMisty]

91. That's odd - most people I know think of religion as belief in a supreme being

and believing in a book said to be the word of that supreme being.

You can find all sorts of meaning and comfort without religion.

[SteelPenguin]

98. Religion is an organized approach to human spirituality

That usually involves some sort of higher power, but not always.

Athiests getting together to have a picnic does not make a religion, but a social club. If they met regularly, talked about their spirituality even though they don't believe in god, whether through a congregational leader, or a series of speakers....then you could talk about it being a religion. If they're just having cookouts though, it's not.

[MedleyMisty]

103. I certainly didn't think that atheists getting together made it a religion

I'm atheist myself and I thought I was making the point that you needed more than social gatherings to be called a religion.

I don't know - I guess it's like Buddhism. I really like the original concept of Buddhism, but it seems like through the millenia it's gathered a lot of mythology and superstition and rituals and "schools" and stuff. Like I hung out on a Buddhist forum for a while but left in disgust after a thread where most of the posters agreed that people in poverty deserved it for being bad in a previous life. So yeah, you could say that Buddhism is a religion without a "higher power", but for a lot of people it does have supernatural and dogmatic elements.

[SteelPenguin]

106. yeah we agree

I may have misposted in response to yours....I dunno. I haven't had all my coffee ration this morning...

I think, personally, that Buddhism while it doesn't have some monotheistic god telling everyone what to do, certainly encompasses belief in a different sense. Belief in reincarnation for instance alone, and other aspects of the cosmos...Call it whatever you will, but it goes beyond a lifestyle and becomes a system that requires belief in something with no evidence.

I'm a Unitarian Universalist, and I think alot of people are ignorant of what that means too. That while you can be a UU and believe in Jesus, or in Buddha even, most are more agnostic secular humanists, yet we still discuss our spirituality. At my church we talk about spirituality and the stories of Jesus or Buddha (though more often we don't talk about them at all) as things to learn from, stories that have meaning, rather than events that were true. Some people would, and do, call UU not a religion, but I do.... and honestly I think alot of athiests, or secular humanists, or agnostics, would get alot out of UU, if they just knew more about it.

Of course there are plenty of people who don't want anything like it and would rather be fishing on Sunday morning, and to them I say "can I come with you when the weather is really nice?"

[drm604]

109. Please show me where I was "obsessing" on anything.

Mentioning something is not the same as obsessing on it. You're setting up a strawman. There's no point in my continuing this conversation.

[burning rain]

142. It has to do with the source of comfort and meaning.

I don't know of many religious people or institutions that do not propose the existence of an afterlife; recompense for goodness or evil beyond this life; a creator and supervisor of the universe who has personality, will, and freedom of action. There are atheists who join congregations for social reasons, but that's a separate issue. An atheist does not need to reject comfort and meaning, but ought to find them within the bounds of reason and naturalism.

[Occam Bandage]

116. Again, I'm not saying atheism is a religion.

I think the moral doctrine of Humanism, when adopted to a social group that has as a purpose social reinforcement of that doctrine, creates something that is distinguishable from "religion" only in that no God is invoked. Of course, no god is invoked in Buddhism, nor is any supernatural component necessary in a Buddhist practice*, but yet we call Buddhism a religion.

*Buddhist sects of course differ in the extent to which they are supernaturalist. The doctrine of rebirth is more or less supernatural, and it is usually only a secondary or tertiary component to the religion. Zen/Chan Buddhism focuses almost entirely on mindfulness, compassion, and meditation, none of which are supernatural. On the other end of the spectrum, Pure Land Buddhism is just traditional East Asian intercessor god worship, with some Buddhist dressing up.

[SteelPenguin]

8. Sounds like my church

Lots of athiests and secular humanists in Unitarian Universalist congregations...but not exclusively.

If athiests wanted to get together with just other athiests to have social hours, forums, etc....why not.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

48. Yep the UUs have already welcomed the questioning.

The atheists, the agnostics, the not-sure about any of this.

www.uua.org

The Seven Principles:
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The Six Sources:
Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:

* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
* Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

These principles and sources of faith are the backbone of our religious community.

============================

UUs have no creedal test, ever.

:toast:

[eridani]

64. And pagans too. Good on them. BTW--how do you terrorize Unitarians?

Burn question marks on their front lawns.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

68. And UUs worship the Giver of Life....

The Coffeepot. :D :toast:

[SteelPenguin]

92. There was a terrible car accident...

A woman was lying in the street, covered in blood. Someone in the crowd shouted, "Call a priest!".

The woman opened her eyes and said, "I'm a Unitarian."

"Then call a math teacher!"

[Stuckinthebush]

95. HA!

I love it!

[SteelPenguin]

93. Example of my church

Every week we have a 'time for all ages' when the kids go up to the front and the minister will do some kids story, or some other people will do something with the kids, before they go off to their classes...On Passover the student minister was going over the Moses and 10 commandments story, basically talking about passover. And at one point she said something like "and he questioned God...should we question God?" and one of the kids, unprompted, loudly said "uh yeah." and the whole congregation laughed and applauded.

I love my church.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. Humans are social animals

Very often, the reasons people go to church are social, not religious. I think it is a good thing that people are creating secular social organizations that will fill the same place in their lives that church does.

[DeltaLitProf]

16. It cannot happen

A religion involves faith in a structured mythology and set of rituals for which there is no scientific report. Atheism involves no faith, no mythology and the truth that decisions made based on evidence rather than pure belief tend to be more successful.

[KittyWampus]

80. Atheism certainly does involve a faith and mythology. Every human on the planet,

unless they suffer serious brain damage, has a world view and uses that world view to prejudge reality.

And there is now a large volume of evidence that the Universe is non-local and that Reality can't be Reduced to simple physical matter. But atheists are content to just ignore that evidence or to rationalize it.

Also, as observed by a subset of atheists here on DU, I'd say there IS a shared ritual, going to "skeptic" websites that "debunk" whatever they label "woo-woo" and then repeating what they find on those "skeptic" websites without any real attempt to understand the alternate world view.

[Marr]

94. What is this evidence you refer to that suggests the universe is "non-local"?

And what does that mean?

[Hello_Kitty]

105. And what does it have to do with man-made religion? Or atheism? eom

[Marr]

114. Indeed. People sometimes bring up things like string theory

and essentially use it to say, 'here is something we can't explain. This validates my religious views'.

Why?

There's a very strange disconnect there. Just because science can't explain a thing, it doesn't mean religion *can*.

[Hello_Kitty]

117. I always say 'just because I don't have the explanation doesn't I have to accept YOURS' eom

[trotsky]

132. It's all in her mind.

Literally.

[Hello_Kitty]

104. Describe exactly what 'faith' and 'mythology' atheism involves.

Put up or STFU.

[wuushew]

110. There is no excuse for woo, none

Empiricism has a great track record. The fruits of rationality are evident in every task that man does on a daily basis.

I don't see how skepticism can be a vice. The same critical thinking skills that destroy the Easter Bunny are the same ones that protect us from get rich quick schemes and belief that magnets increase fuel economy by 400%.

[Ignis]

136. Invisible is not a color. (nt)

[tkmorris]

18. Meeting regularly does not a religion make

Surely you know this, so I can only assume I am missing your point.

[yodoobo]

42. true. But meeting regularly to talk about what you don't believe

is a bit odd.....

[LeftyMom]

49. Meeting regularly to talk about shared values in conflict with the surrounding society,

that kinda makes sense.

[Canuckistanian]

52. Why do you have to "talk about what you don't believe"?

If I lived in America, I'd be going to those meetings. NOT to discuss the existence or non-existence of God, but simply to get away from from the fundie Christians that would surround me.

It would be a safe haven, where I KNOW prayer won't break out or some sky being gets praised or someone ends up trying to "save" me.

Look, we're ENVELOPED by God people, we hear their tired messages all the time, everywhere we go.

Is it a crime just to have some respite from it?

[Fumesucker]

87. Maybe they'll talk about the whacky things their neighbors do

I know that's a favorite in atheist circles in the more Bible Beltish parts of the country.

Fundies can be very entertaining and this is South Carolina I think, there will certainly be no lack of fundies to laugh at..

[SteelPenguin]

101. Look up Unitarian Universalism

While there are plenty of theistic UU's, the majority in my congregation are Agnostics or Athiests. Our last student minister was an athiest.

We don't talk about what we don't believe. We talk about our spirituality in different ways. It depends on the day, and the topic. For Easter our sermon was about how the rebirth of the Easter story can help us in our lives, by showing that people can be 'reborn' metaphorically, by telling a true story of someone who was downtrodden and remade themselves and picked themselves up overcoming their hardship, and helping others along the way. It had nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the HUMAN spirit, and how it's up to us to make ourselves and the world a better place.

If a purely Athiest group got together, I'm pretty sure it'd be fairly similar to UU, except that it wouldn't be as welcoming to people who DID believe. That's the biggest difference UU's won't deign to tell anyone what to believe, or what not to believe. It's up to you to figure that out, not someone else to tell you.

[snake in the grass]

19. I fail to see...

...how this is turning atheism into religion. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to socialize with like-minded individuals. I know that awkwardness when at a social event and someone starts proselytizing. Hell, at the World Fair in Knoxville, TN many years ago some freak tried preaching his Jesus nonsense while I was trying to piss into a urinal in the public restroom. Besides, whom are they going to worship?

The Atheist God?

[stopbush]

26. Er, would you have a problem with people showing up as a group to celebrate democracy?

How about people meeting as a group who collect stamps? Do you have a problem with MADD meeting? Ar they a religion?

There's no religion involved. It's just people with a common outlook on life discussing how they can best have their views expressed in the marketplace of ideas.

[Occam Bandage]

27. Why would you have a problem with it?

Religions are constantly arising. If there were to be a widespread religion that was atheistic and entirely based on the principles of secular humanism, I would find that a very good thing for humanity.

[caseymoz]

33. Atheism by itself can't be a religion.

However, it can be part of the doctrine or dogma of a religion. The same thing with theism, or monotheism.

Until doctrine and dogma show up, we don't have a religion. Instead we have people who want a social life without the religion.

[bperci108]

60. Oh, I don't know if it would qualify for "religion" status...

...but after all-- we ARE social beings and hey, who doesn't love holidays and celebratory gatherings?

They're just leaving out the imaginary friends and silly ancient rituals. :evilgrin:




:hide:

[Duppers]

63. no irony. Religions worship

Atheists don't.

[Deep13]

71. It's not a religion no matter how many people are at a meeting. nt

[KittyWampus]

81. It's a religion if there is a shared world view and that world view influences behavior

amongst members of the group.

[Deep13]

84. That's not what a religion is.

A religion is based on a common belief in a supernatural diety that makes the rules and has all the answers.

[SteelPenguin]

102. I would disagree with that definition

I like the wikipedia paraphrase of Geertz... "A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth."

I feel that as a Unitarian Universalist I belong to an organized religion, but we have no common belief in a supernatural deity that makes the rules and has all the answers.

[Deep13]

115. Even so, without a supernatural deity, in what way is it religion? nt

[SteelPenguin]

129. Well...

What is religion? That's an old question....

Extracting 'god' or a 'supernatural deity' from the equation, what is the purpose of religion? Some see it as solely to worship God, and nothing else, but isn't it also a method to explore our spiritual sides, and to learn how to live in harmony with each other, whether that's under the laws and rules of god, or the laws and rules of man?

"A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth."

1) An organized approach to human spiritually
1a) usually encompassing a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices
1b) often with a supernatural or transcendent quality

in order to

2) Give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life
2a) through reference to a higher power or truth

I would say Unitarian Universalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalist), for instance, is a religion because it is an organized approach to human spirituality. That it also encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices. It doesn't deny a supernatural or transcendent quality to people, however it doesn't suggest it either. The purpose of which is to give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life, through referencing the 'truth' of humanity and good through shared conviction, not through any particular higher power (though again some UU's do believe in god, the aspect of a higher power is not suggested).

For example of a set of narratives, beliefs or practices are what is refered to as the "living tradition" which are a codified set of Principles and Purposes..

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."<16>

In fact other than the removal of Jesus from regular discussion, and a lack of crosses in the church, I think you'd be hard pressed to tell much difference between many UU churches regular service and many protestant churches. We have music, readings, a recitation of the living tradition, songs, a sermon, a time of quiet meditation, more singing, etc. Just no God.

Just because people don't believe in god, doesn't mean they have no need for everything else that comes from religion without the burning bush. Learning how to grow as a person, be a better person, work with your community, help build that community, and yourself. Be a better husband, a better father, a better friend, a better person. How to respect others, and search for truth etc.

I guess you could say that it differs in motivation to. In a Christian church, for instance, you go to church because if you don't you'll be 'punished' in the afterlife, and any growth that comes from that church is an added afterthought to simply preventing this hypothetical spiritual punishment. Whereas for a Liberal Religion like Unitarian Universalist, you go to church specifically for that spiritual growth, rather than out of some thought of reward or punishment.

However, if someone insists that there must be a supernatural component for something to be called a religion, then none of this matters, and it becomes a semantic argument where their definition requires the aforementioned 1b, and mine doesn't.

Though I call it one, and I find that it's making me a better person to practice it. To me that's really all that matters, not what it's called.

[Deep13]

134. A lot of traditions see god differently than Jews, Christians or Muslims.

And a lot of the world's traditions in at least some of their varieties (Buddhism comes to mind) might not be religions in the Western sense.

[Bluenorthwest]

86. So is a Union a religion in your thinking?

Or a group dedicated to better public transportation? Is the Democratic Party a religion? All of these groups have a shared world view and behave accordingly.
So is the UAW a religion?

[spoony]

130. Do Unions meet up based on shared religious opinions?

It's honestly funny seeing the tortured rhetoric in this thread. You can argue it isn't a religion, but don't act like you can compare groups that congregate together based on their religious views with groups that don't.

[Bill McBlueState]

107. according to this definition

i.e., having "a shared world view" that "influences behavior," the Democratic party is also a religion. A group of moms who get together to clip coupons and talk about how to save money would also be a religion: "Thriftitarianism" let's say.

It's so broad a definition as to be nearly useless.

[progressoid]

135. So Libertarianism is a religion?

How about pot smokers? Or Post-impressionists?



Sorry - fail.

[Ignis]

137. Nice, useless, catch-all definition.

My sports team has a world-view (e.g., our team is the best), and that world-view influences our behavior (e.g., we compete against teams that are ranked higher than we are).

Please spell out--in excruciating detail--how that makes my sports team a religion.

[whopis01]

147. Fine. Then by that definition, the Democratic party is a religion.

As are the republicans, trekkies, and vegans.

You have well illustrated the point that words can mean different things to different people.

However, words are just a limited way of describing the underlying reality. To me, it is clear that there is something common between christianity, islam, hinduism, shinto, catholicism and other groups that is not shared by all other groups that share a world view that influences their behavior.

Some people use religion as a label to indicate that. You choose not to use that label. Fine - no big deal. But I think that you would agree that there is something fundamentally different between a group based on a disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God and a group based on a beliefe in a God.

[BoneDaddy]

74. Ya think?

I have a problem with anyone be it religious fundamentalists or atheist being absolutely sure that their point of view is the correct answer.

[MindPilot]

83. When Atheist groups get the same tax breaks as churches...

when there is a National Non-prayer Breakfast, when faith and lack thereof are equal, then we can revisit this "no religion is still a religion" meme.

[Dorian Gray]

108. I think this might get those tax breaks...

it's an organized group called the Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture. It's a humanistic (atheistic) group that is organized. They have services and meetings all built on perpetuating ethical culture. It's a beautiful building right on Prospect Park West.

There is a NYC counterpart on Central Park West, I believe.

I am pretty sure they get the same tax breaks churches get.

http://www.bsec.org/901.html

[ejpoeta]

88. i think people wnat to be able to get together with other people

without it being a religious thing. I mean, I wouldn't say i am an atheist, but i am not religious. and the only things available for me where i could be around other mothers is relgious in nature. It sucks!! i wish there were more things like MOPS that weren't relgious.

[msanthrope]

122. I had to quit being an anarchist because of too many rules....n/y

[bullwinkle428]

138. Why do you hate the concept of freedom of association, as guaranteed

by our Constitution?

[lostnotforgotten]

2. Maybe The Right Wing Has Sold Religion Too Hard - People Need A Break From Fire And Brimstone

eom

[Oak2004]

15. Maybe??

You have to ask???

Even believers are fleeing organized religion to become "spiritual not religious".

[K8-EEE]

57. Bush made me so disgusted with religion

I was a regular church goer (Roman Catholic) until 2004. It made me sick all these "people of faith" getting sucked into the Bush evil empire propaganda.

I decided i'm better off without it - it's a con. The whole "we are a Christian nation" thing is total bullshit. Doubters, find your voice: we ARE the true silent majority!

[teachthemwell15]

96. My situation exactly

I stopped attending church (recovering catholic) four years ago when Bush was re-elected.

I am continually amazed at the influence the fundies have had in policy and culture, and even more flabbergasted that during this past election, despite Obama winning handily, there were about 47% votes for McCain/Palin.

There are lots of us out here and your statement about us being a 'silent majority' rings true.

But that silence will, imo, go the way of obsolescence as this very different political and social climate proceeds toward some badly needed sanity that can lend itself to some measure of optimism and hope once again.

Reason and rationality will underwrite our identity as Americans. Can't come soon enough for me.:woohoo:

[BlooInBloo]

3. Enter christians whining about being persecuted, stage left.

[caseymoz]

34. They do that all along. nt

[defendandprotect]

5. Good news . . . good for them--!

[The Straight Story]

9. Atheists are preaching their ideals and beliefs?

I thought telling others how you felt was bad and was considered shoving your ideas down their throats? I thought it was called preaching?

Guess I missed something somewhere....

[Arugula Latte]

13. Wrong. They're not shoving it down others' throats, they're meeting like-minded people.

Big difference.

[greyl]

14. Yeah, you missed something, but didn't forget your straw argument.

“The most important thing is coming out of the closet.”

edit: & "In keeping with the new generation of atheist evangelists, the Pastafarian leaders say that their goal is not confrontation, or even winning converts, but changing the public’s stereotype of atheists. A favorite Pastafarian activity is to gather at a busy crossroads on campus with a sign offering “Free Hugs” from “Your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist.”

[elshiva]

17. It's a billboard. There are a lot of Christian billboards out there, too.

Lots of secular billboards, too, with all sorts of messages. It helps to think you are not alone.

[Hello_Kitty]

25. Yeah, kinda like how gay people are 'shoving it down people's throats' by living out in the open.

:eyes:

[Dr.Phool]

44. Oh, is that open for some puns.

I'll keep my mouth shut.

[burning rain]

140. See, when you're with the majority, and you're doing your thing....

you're just doing your thing, and that's cool. But when you're a minority and you're doing your thing, well, that's shoving it down people's throats. Get it? I bet you don't. Neither do I. :)

[caseymoz]

36. Did you read the article? If that's in there I missed it.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. OMG I love your sig line! eom

[Deep13]

72. Um, no.

I'm not trying to shut anyone up. I just don't think nonbelievers have a duty to shut up either. The problem with folks like Bill Donahue, Fred Phelps and Rick Warren is not that they talk about their ideas, but that their ideas are wrong having no basis in reality.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Good, if Mahrer's statistic is correct, time to stop being silent

16% folks, 16%

[Arugula Latte]

11. Very cool. Pockets of rationality exist even in South Carolina. nt

[SayitAintSo]

141. Easy ...I'm one of those pockets ..... n/t

[roody]

20. A good peace demonstration satisfies my atheistic need for

communal experience.

[Occam Bandage]

21. It's interesting to see atheists forming, for lack of a better term, an organized religion.

Their activities, after all, are the primary real-world activities of any religion: advertising to find new members, development of an arbitrary moral bedrock also serving as a form of self-identification, and regular community activities to reinforce the 'religion' through social reward. Really, the only thing that would separate this from a religion is that there is no god invoked in the moral bedrock. Of course, there isn't a god directly invoked in Buddhism, nor one in Daoism, nor in Confucianism, either, and yet we call those religions...

[greyl]

30. " for lack of a better term"? lol. Keep thinking about it.

Humans socializing does not equal religion as I define it.

What is the atheist "arbitrary moral bedrock"?

How do you define religion? Is it only by their primary real-world activities?

[Occam Bandage]

35. There is no atheist "arbitrary moral bedrock." Didn't say there was.

These people, however, do have one: secular humanism, which is compatible with but not identical to atheism, and which is as arbitrary as any other code of ethics. In this case, adherence to secular humanism is the cultural marker that signifies group membership.

"Humans socializing does not equal religion as I define it."
Nor as I.

How do you define religion? Is it only by their primary real-world activities?
I think religions are a subset of self-replicating memetic constructs, which in particular have evolved to transmit themselves from generation to generation, and which ensure a symbiotic existence with their human "hosts" by nestling into the natural intersection between the human desires for social belonging and for moral purpose.

Whether a divinity is invoked seems beside the point.

[KittyWampus]

82. it isn't just "human socializing" it's humans who SHARE A WORLD VIEW socializing

It's humans who have a common philosophy that shapes their behavior.

[trotsky]

145. There are atheists who are Buddhists.

There are atheists who are nihilists.

There are atheists who are Unitarian Universalists.

There are atheists who are Utilitarians.

You have a childishly simple idea of what atheism is.

[ZombieHorde]

31. An organization is not necessarily a religion.

Consider book clubs, the NRA, PETA, gyms, collage fraternities, and role playing groups.

[Occam Bandage]

39. That's true. Book clubs don't have a mandatory shared moral code.

Therefore, book clubs, despite being an organization, are not a religion.

[ZombieHorde]

77. Atheists don't have a shared mandatory moral code either.

Freemasons do, are they a religion?

[KittyWampus]

85. Athiests do share a Reductionist world view. Freemasons are a Fraternal Order with rituals

which all have an esoteric meaning aimed at effecting change on a psycho-spiritual level for participants.

So maybe Freemasons might say they aren't a religion but they are engaged in activities that work on multiple levels of reality.

In a sense, they are a religion.

[ZombieHorde]

121. Freemasons are composed of several religions.

I know Freemasons who are Christian and I know Freemasons who are Thelemites.

I myself am not a Freemason, but those I know have told me the initiations were a little cheesy and they did not gain any spiritual value from them.

In a sense, they are a religion.

With enough imagination most anything can be most anything else "in a sense".

[Bluenorthwest]

89. How about Unions?

Or gee, the Democratic Party...

[ZombieHorde]

118. Good examples. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

120. Awesome Post.

[LostInAnomie]

24. I'll know things have changed when we elect our first openly Atheist politician...

... to national politics.

I'm glad to see things are changing though.

[Occam Bandage]

28. Pete Stark, D-CA. Came out in '07, won reelection in Nov. '08.

It was a major milestone in American politics. Of course, we were all paying a bit more attention to that other major milestone in American politics that happened on the same day, so it's understandable if it slipped your notice.

[Onceuponalife]

47. Thanks Occam

You beat me to the punch. Pete Stark was my congressman for many years and I never had a better one. He always won re-election every term by a wide margin. That didn't change after he "came out of the closet." People in the Bay Area don't care what religion their elected leaders are, just that they work for the constituents and their interests. Pete is a good man. We could use more leaders like him. Obama even acknowledged us atheists and agnostics in a speech which is highly unusual for a president. So, who know? Maybe one day an atheist will sit in the White House.

[TlalocW]

32. More power to them

But I find that groups that are formed based on a "negative" (not meaning bad but meaning not having/not doing a particular activity) are harder to keep together than groups based on a "positive" because the members of the negative will have so many other varied interests, hobbies... food preferences even... that it will be akin to herding cats. I've seen it with Childfree Groups. I do hope they have better luck.

TlalocW

[JI7]

38. i'm thinking in areas where religion is more part of daily activities

that these groups can be useful. people can do simple everyday things without having to hear people talk about how they should thank God for everything.

they can also become useful when it comes to things like teaching evolution, prayer etc in schools and other public places.

i watched the Dawkins thing posted in the videos forum a few days ago and he said he tended to get a warmer reception when he was in areas where it's more viewed as religious. and that could just be because the non religious and especiallly atheists don't always feel comfortable being open with their feelings when everyone around there is "god bless this and that".

[caseymoz]

37. Best news I've heard in nearly thirty years.

And the clear resounding trend here is . . . Republicans are f*cked!

[lupinella]

40. YAY! Good for them.

As an atheist living in the Bible belt, I understand the need to be with like-minded people on occasion. We are bombarded with religion constantly by people who cannot comprehend morality not based on a mythology. As I once told a sweet but religiously bigoted coworker, 'I only believe in one god less than you.':party:

[bperci108]

61. What's that quote?

Something like "When you fully understand why you reject all previous gods worshipped throughout history you will understand why I reject yours as well."

Or something like that....

And welcome to DU, fellow heathen! :hi:

[yodoobo]

41. They should build a large building and gather on saturdays

Then they could all get together and talk about what they don't believe in.

Of course suchs things are expensive, so they'll need to pass around a donation plate.

Its important to spread the word far and wide about what you don't believe in and encourage others to not believe in it also.

If you don't, people might think your a nutty religious person or something.

[JI7]

43. or we could just make fun of fundies

[Hello_Kitty]

46. That strawman has already been addressed upthread

Tell you what, when those atheists also start following a myth-based dogma, then you'll have a point.

[yodoobo]

50. Its a matter of opinion.

And you are welcome to disagree.

I just fail to see a difference between

1) A group of people who gathers other people and resources, and then spreads the word and encourages me to believe in particular way of thinking.

2) A group of people who gathers other people and resources, and then spreads the word and discourages me to believe in a particular way of thinking.


IMO, these folks sound about as nutty as the fundamentalist.

[Occam Bandage]

51. "these folks sound about as nutty as the fundamentalist."

One person tells you that black people are evil, and you must kill all black people that you see.

Another person tells you that black people are not evil, and that you shouldn't go around killing black people.

Are these two people equally "nutty?"

[Hello_Kitty]

54. Bingo!

This is exactly the kind of false equivalence claptrap that has destroyed the news in the past 2 decades.

[yodoobo]

55. murder is not the same as Atheism

you are comparing belief systems to murder and racism.

i.e. thoughts and ideology to criminals actions

[Occam Bandage]

59. Racism could fairly be called a belief system.

Moreover, many religions contain beliefs that are outright racist, and many more contain beliefs that are homophobic and misogynistic. You apparently think it is fine to contradict someone who claims white people are superior to black people. Is it fine to contradict someone who says, "God tells me men are superior to women?" Or is it nutty to disagree with him?

[yodoobo]

62. If you are going to insist on putting terrible words in my mouth

then there isn't any point in continuing the conversation.

"""You apparently think it is fine to contradict someone who claims white people are superior to black people. """

How vile.


FWIW, I thought you started with a good point and we might agree on a few things......but then you turned vile.

Find someone else to imprint your thoughts upon.

[Hello_Kitty]

99. No, he was pointing out the illogic in your statement.

You can't handle it.

[ieoeja]

111. "How vile"?

He said you apparently think that disagreeing with white supremecy is fine. And you accuse him of being vile?

Most of us would consider just the opposite as being vile.

[Occam Bandage]

113. Er...so you do not in fact think it is fine to disagree with racists?

Or do you just not understand what the word "contradict" means?

[yodoobo]

126. mea culpa!

Sorry it was quite late and some others in the thread had already starting getting nasty and personal.

I read your sentence wrong and thought you were joining in. Clearly I should have reread it.

Yes. For the record it is quite fine to disagree with racist.

cheers and please accept my apology.

[Hello_Kitty]

53. Yeah, if you aren't capable of perceiving the world outside of a religious prism

Which you clearly are not. Let me guess, you're a True Christian^TM, am I right?

[yodoobo]

58. Well the discussion is about Atheism and religion.

Hence my response is about Atheism and religion.

If we step outside that boundary, the conversation and points will follow whatever course we take.

Why you being so insulting? We are talking about religion and atheism, yet you assume that because my response is about atheism and religion that this is the only thing I discus or have views on? That is an amazingly narrow assumption my friend. If I insulted either your Atheism or your religious beliefs then accept my apology with sincerity.



Nonetheless, your guess is incorrect and I am not familiar with "True Christian" trademarked concept.

[Hello_Kitty]

100. Religion and atheism do not exist in the same boundary, except in your mind.

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

[Skip Intro]

56. I live in Charleston, or just outside of Charleston. I've seen no local news coverage of this.

None.

[Fumesucker]

65. Look in the "Faith and Values" section of your newspaper..

If you have such a section, like we do here (also in the Bible Belt).

:eyes:

[dem629]

97. Same here, and this is the first I've heard of it. Seems like more of a PR campaign.

[MineralMan]

70. Personally, I can't find a reason why I'd attend any meeting

of other atheists. Maybe a group of bass-fishing atheists, but we'd talk about fishing, I imagine.

And speaking of bass-fishing, I watched coverage of an FLW tournament yesterday, and the thing opened after launching the boats with all the boats gathered together with the anglers praying. Hmph!

"Please, Jebus, let me catch lots of big-ass chunks today and defeat the rest of these bozos. Thanks, man!"

[SammyWinstonJack]

76. .

:spray:

[deaniac21]

73. Heartwarming!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

75. I think religion statistics are torqued up artificially

Someone is looking at a census survey or some voluntary survey that is quizzing them - Race, Gender, Age, Religion, etc?

They get to Religion. Practicing Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Baptists, etc. have no problem defining themselves. BUT, I think there is a giant group of people who are not regular practitioners of anything. They might go to church on Easter, they might attend a Christmas Eve Midnight Mass with a friend, they might have attended church on a semi-regular basis as a child, etc. but they are not a practicing anything at this point. But, they would NEVER identify themselves as Atheist or even Agnostic. What box do they check, my friends? They check off Protestant.

That's just my theory.

[Forkboy]

112. The people trying to paint this as religion because they meet must think Chess clubs are religious.

And damn, I hope they never go to a D&D meetup. Their foreheads will pop.

Some people are desperately looking for hypocrisy when none exists.

[spoony]

123. Chess clubs don't congregate with a single religious viewpoint

Presumably they are there because they play chess and not because of a uniting opinion about religious matters. Pretty significant difference.

[Forkboy]

125. And neither do athiests, no matter how desperately religious people try to frame it that way.

Fox News would be proud of the attempt though. :thumbsup:

[spoony]

127. Okay, so meetings set up and advertised

as gatherings of people who don't believe in God isn't organising around a unifying opinion on religion? I don't see how you can deny that. You can say that doesn't make it a religion, but you can't deny it's organised around a single relgious stance.

If not, why didn't the ad say, "come one and all and have a picnic"?

ed: And don't fucking throw that childish fox news crap at me, you're better than that.

[Forkboy]

128. It's not a religious stance at all.

but you can't deny it's organised around a single relgious stance.

Yes, I can, because atheism isn't a religion. You can try to frame it that way all afternoon here, and it still won't make it so. Unifying around a single opinion ON religion isn't religion itself.

I'm agnostic myself, but it never ceases to amuse me to watch religious people twist themselves into knots trying to paint atheism as a religion.

And don't fucking throw that childish fox news crap at me, you're better than that.

Then stop playing their type of games. They bend over backwards to try to reframe things to fit their beliefs, too. :shrug:

[spoony]

143. Which I'm not doing

For one thing, I'm not saying that atheism is a religion. It is a belief, but that's a whole 'nother thread. You tried twice in that post to put words in my mouth, so I'll be clearer: atheism is not a religion. That is not what I've been arguing, at all. What I've been saying is that the example you used, similar to the examples many are using, to argue that these meetings aren't religious is bunk, because there are significant differences between the purposes and organisation of chess clubs and unions and these get-togethers. Namely: the meetings are being called religious, NOT because atheism is a religion but because the organisational end of it pertains to religion--and because it's the entire POINT of them being together. It isn't their atheism; it is their rallying around it which brings (legitimate) comparisons to religious meetings.

Note that when I'm talking about their "unifying religious stance" I mean a stance on religion, not in, in the same way a person's "political stance" may be that they are uninterested in politics. You can't call them 'political' but they have a stance relative to the term so you say their 'political stance'. Now if many people like that held a convention or something, it'd be political in their non-political stance. Likewise I don't say atheists are religious, but can certainly say they have religious viewpoints, or rather one that is now a central organising point.

[trotsky]

146. I'll repeat what I said upthread: There are atheists who are Buddhists.

There are atheists who are nihilists. There are atheists who are secular humanists, Unitarian Universalists, etc., etc. There isn't a "single religious viewpoint" among atheists. Only in your prejudiced idea of what atheism means.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

119. 100 People...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[fascisthunter]

124. I see an Effort by a few here to Conflate religion with atheism

how goofey and childish... a semantical argument that does nothing but confuse the issue even further. Why? Bcause religious folks are scared shitless that Americans will realize how non-religious this country really is.

[Love Bug]

131. Wow -- the fact this is happening in the Bible Belt is very interesting

People should be able to feel comfortable in being public with their beliefs, or not, as the case may be. I think this is a good sign, indeed, that we are finally approaching the pluralistic society we claim to be.

[MedleyMisty]

139. Is North Carolina part of the Bible Belt?

I don't know - I don't think we identify with South Carolina very much. I remember in college people referred to it as The Vast Wasteland, and actually there's a bit of a joke going around with a picture of North and South Carolina and the caption "North Carolina - we like being on top."

It's just that yeah, we have a lot of churches here, but in my experience it's mostly just a social thing and people aren't really true fundie believers. Hell, I just joined Facebook and found a lot of my old high school friends and a lot of them have "questioning" or "atheist" as their religion, and the ones that don't make it clear elsewhere that they're cool with other beliefs.

Plus, except for one moderate (and that's a person I don't remember very well) they're all liberal. :)

Oh, and I grew up in the same town as Andy Griffith and it's what he based Mayberry on - we still have Snappy Lunch and Floyd's Barber Shop on Main Street.

I am wondering if it's a generational difference, maybe - I'm 28.

I don't know - it's just that I've been looking at their profiles and they all grew into totally awesome people and it makes me so upset when I see broad brush attacks against the South on here when the whole fundie/ignorant/bigoted thing hasn't been my experience of growing up and living here at all.

[Bill McBlueState]

133. Fine, this is a religious gathering

If referring to these meetings as religious gatherings defuses the major talking point that religious people seem to have developed about them, then let's just call them that. It wouldn't be the first time religious people could only be satisfied by seriously misconstruing a situation.

[Gabi Hayes]

144. anyone care to predict how many more decades/centuries before the idea of

religions centered around clearly preposterous mythology will cease to be an important aspect (very often a most invasive, sometimes all-encompassing factor) in the lives of BILLIONS of earthlings?

consider how laughable the idea of Zeus, Gilgamesh, Odin, Hairy Thunderers too numerous to count here (thousands, according to a thread here a few months back) is to most 'civilized people' these days....

how long is it going to take before the idea of, say, the Holy Trinity is looked upon with the same sort of contumely as the phlogisten theory, or, more to the point these days....'creation science?'