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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:10 PM
Original message
Class Distinctions
Reading a post in LBN about the Middle Class Task Force prompted me to think about the definition of 'class' and the way the term is used.

My parents, granparents were all solidly working class. My father may have been a tradesman, but his father was a miner. I consider myself working class even though I work both in an office and from home. I bill for my services and do not get my hands dirty, but I am still working class because I must sell my services/time/labour for the money I need to live.

I suspect the USA is much more 'class' conscious than Oz. You rarely hear it mentioned. It seems to come up, not as a topic in itself, but as a comment, much more frequently on DU lately, probably because of the GFC.

I'm interested to know how you define 'middle class'. Are they white collar workers? Business owners? Independentantly financially secure?

Another thing; Do you consider anyone 'upper class' (no jokes about the Bush Cartel and ruling classes :))If so, what is the criteria?

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. The United States, Sir
Is unique among the countries of the world, in that the peasantry and proletariat here imagine themselves to be bourgeoisie in class, and petty nobility in social prerogative.

The fact is no one with an income much under a quarter million a year enjoys any truely 'middle class' standard of living, and no one with capital assets much under five millions can truely be considered 'upper class' here.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Quintiles ...

With regard to "middle class" it was originally an income-based thing derived from the developed standard of separating income classes into quintiles. This emerged out of the post-WWII era when the so-called middle-class was effectively created.

Everyone in the lower quintile was lower-class. Those in the three middle quintiles were lower-middle, middle-middle, and upper-middle. The fifth quintile was upper-class.

This, of course, was a deviation from "class" as it was defined before that, which was less strictly income based and more a measure of social station.

We've changed the way we define things again, using septiles in some economic calculations, but also re-introducing the "social station" as a part of it. Definitions vary depending on the purpose of the division, who you're talking to, etc. Republicans like to call anyone who makes slightly less than Bill Gates middle class for economic purposes but think of anyone who isn't a CEO (or the son or daughter of one) or something similar as lower class.

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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. 'Social Station'
is an interesting concept. On the rare occasion I see the Appalling People Pages on the net or in print my disdain grows for the shallow uber-networkers who spend their time in self-promotion.

The example of say, movie and TV stars is interesting. Networking and promotion have provided social status which in turn has provided wealth - or is it the other way round? The wealth provides greater opportunity for promotion?

Either way, you see very few poor, meek and humble people, even though they have the kindest hearts, the most impeccable morality and humanity, ever being called of 'Upper Social Status'.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. . .
:popcorn:


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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Do you really think this is popcorn material?
:) Im really interested in this, how different people view the idea of class and status.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. I usually find these discussions
quite amusing. II read a stat pre-crash that 19% of Americans believe they are among the top 10% wage earners. In recent discussions there seem to be many who believe $250K a year is "rich." You got any salt? :kick:
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mia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. "A Touchy Subject" -an interesting read on the subject
http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/resources/essays6.html

A Touchy Subject

Although most Americans sense that they live within an extremely complicated system of social classes and suspect that much of what is thought and done here is prompted by considerations of status, the subject has remained murky. And always touchy. You can outrage people today simply by mentioning social class, very much the way, sipping tea among the aspidistras a century ago, you could silence a party by adverting too openly to sex. When, recently, asked what I am writing, I have answered, "A book about social class in America," people tend first to straighten their ties and sneak a glance at their cuffs to see how far fraying has advanced there. Then, a few minutes later, they silently get up and walk away. It is not just that I am feared as a class spy. It is as if I had said, "I am working on a book urging the beating to death of baby whales using the dead bodies of baby seals." Since I have been writing this book I have experienced many times the awful truth of R.H. Tawney's perception, in his book Equality (1931): "The word 'class' is fraught with unpleasing associations, so that to linger upon it is apt to be interpreted as the symptom of a perverted mind and a jaundiced spirit."

Especially in America, where the idea of class is notably embarrassing. In his book Inequality in an Age of Decline (1980), the sociologist Paul Blumberg goes so far as to call it "America's forbidden thought." Indeed, if people often blow their tops if the subject is even broached. One woman, asked by a couple of interviewers if she thought there were social classes in this country, answered: "It's the dirtiest thing I've ever head of!" And a man, asked the same question, got so angry that he blurted out, "Social class should be exterminated."

Actually, you reveal a great deal about your social class by the amount of annoyance or fury you feel when the subject is brought up. A tendency to get very anxious suggests that you are middle class and nervous about slipping down a rung or two. On the other hand, upper-class people love to topic to come up: the more attention paid to the matter the better off they seem to be. Proletarians generally don't mind discussions of the subject because they know that can do little to alter their class identity. Thus the whole class matter is likely to seem like a joke to them - the upper classes fatuous in their empty aristocratic pretentiousness, the middles loathsome in their anxious gentility. It is the middle class that is highly class-sensitive, and sometimes class-scared to death. A representative of that class left his mark on a library copy of Russell Lynes's The Tastemakers (1954). Next to a passage patronizing the insecure decorating taste of the middle class and satirically contrasting its artistic behavior to that of some more sophisticated classes, this offended reader scrawled, in large capitals, "BULL SHIT!" A hopelessly middle-class man (not a woman, surely?) if I ever saw one....


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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. That third paragraph
nails it. I honestly thought it would be a topic people find interesting.

Thanks for posting
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Sisaruus Donating Member (703 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Check out classism.org
You might be interested in Class Action, the national organization that addresses issues of class and classism.
http://www.classism.org/about_us.html
I'm on the Board of Directors.
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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thank you
The snobbery that dare not speak its name.
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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. HH 'Saki' Munro examples it best...
The latter days of the 'Victorian Era' are disturbingly similar to the conditions and attitudes of today, from economic structure, to social structure. Munro dealt with the excesses of the middle class of those times with satire, a most satisfyingly sharp satire.
;)
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Welcome To The Forum, Sir
You have mentioned one of my all time favorite authors....

"Put out that bloody cigarette."
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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. thank you (mine too) n/t
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
13. Several differences stand out
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 07:11 AM by depakid
1. Tradesmen are not well respected in the states, as they are in Oz;

2. Miners aren't nearly as well paid, and operate under unsafe working conditions that would find mine owners in gaol for a long time down under.

3. Oz is a much more egalitarian society than the US. A fair go actually means something in- and to Australians. The same isn't true in America. In fact, there are a multitude of institutionalized and cultural means in place that prevent sort of spirit from ever really taking root.

BTW: Happy belated Anzac Day!

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