On the effects of torture

[nadinbrzezinski]

one of the things that nobody in the media will cover (or at least not yet), or for that matter the Chenney family, is this little factoid

During WW I we treated German POWs above and beyond the call of duty. The Red Cross at the time didn't have the need to visit camps ran by the US military beyond the minimum requires

Fast forward to WW II

German troops leaving for the front lines were told by their fathers, if you got to surrender, do so to the yanks. We will never know how many lives were saved (on both sides mind you) by this. What we know is that full units at the closing days of the war tried to enter the American Area of Operations and surrender to us. The brits were the next best choice.

Fast for-wards to Gulf War I, where companies of Iraqi troops surrendered not only to US troops, but to US Drones... think about that

Now, part of the legacy of this is not only that we can no longer claim the moral high ground (like you could ever do that in war time, but that's another discussion), but people will be faced with a choice, die fighting, and take some of them with you, or be captured and tortured.

I will point back to WW II and the German troops and the Soviet Experience. When faced with Gulags, years of it, and other incredible harsh conditions, german troops fought to the death.

That is what the Chenneys and the right wing don't get. Then again it is quite hard to get that when you have other priorities.

[annabanana]

1. How can we regain our moral edge? Is it even possible?

We will have to "prove it" all over again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. We can start by trying these idiots

Or surrendering them to the International Court

And by completely changing how those camps are run...

[sammythecat]

3. The first step to proving we don't tolerate torture

would be to have full investigations into how these transgressions against our own laws were allowed to occur and who was responsible, then prosecuting those responsible(Whoever they may be) for violating our laws. That's the only way we can demonstrate to the world that these despicable acts were those of a rogue element acting outside the law, and that America does not condone, nor will it tolerate in ANY way, abuse and torture of prisoners.

I think that would do a lot to restore confidence in America as a humane country. To do anything less will do absolutely nothing to restore that confidence.

BTW, when I say "whoever" I mean to say I think there are a lot of people that bear some responsibility for this blight. Some more than others and likely some from both sides of the political isle. Whatever, they need to be held accountable for what they did or allowed to happen. If key, and important, people have to go, then so be it. We'll survive the loss. We'll know they weren't worthy of their positions in the first place. We'll be better off without them and they can easily be replaced with people who do possess courage and integrity.

[Locrian]

4. no. they GET it, they just want perpetual war = profits

And to justify the "let's invade Iraq" plan.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I actually think they don't get it

my opinion based on talking to plenty of the right wing, DESPERATE to defend the policy

Of course DoD stickers in vehicle are a hell of a shut the fuck up in any discussion with these idiots