Is the media missing the real issue with the torture memos?

[metapunditedgy]

The ubiquitous Cheney/GOP spin seems to be ignoring the question of whether waterboarding someone several times a day is "torture." Instead, they're talking about all the good that came of it.

But isn't the REAL story that the Bush admin was caught torturing, and Bush was caught publicly denying it? The US government itself says so.

And isn't this important because it's a violation of the Geneva Conventions, international law, etc.? (Some time back, I think the GOP was fighting to say that it was compliant with Geneva Conventions.)

So shouldn't the real story be that many in the Bush admin have been caught flagrantly violating these international treaties/standards?

To me, that's big news. And it has potentially big consequences.

[MarjorieG]

1. Strange, but ends justifies means types are persuaded by ineffectiveness. Once

neutralized, we can talk more (tho' we are) about morality, treaties. Interesting hearing all the experts saying interrogation to elicit good intel comes from relationship building and psychology. BushCo didn't want good intel, just someone on record linking Al Qaeda to Iraq.

Ignorance might be the Bush defense.

sp.

[Occam Bandage]

2. So you're claiming the real story isn't

the Bush administration's violation of United States law and the United States Constitution, but rather the violation of dubiously-binding international treaties? I don't really think your take is either a new one or a particularly compelling one, unless I'm missing something.

[metapunditedgy]

4. No, I'm claiming the issue is NOT the Cheney spin

that we gained intel, but rather that various laws and treaties were broken.

Personally, I doubt much will come of any US legal challenges to Bush & Co, if they even occur. I happen to think that more mileage will come from other nations pointing to violations of Geneva, etc. But it will be interesting to watch.

[Occam Bandage]

5. The story is that we broke the law, rather than that we got good information?

I think we all agree on that. Nobody would be angry at the story, "so we performed a procedure that got lots of good information, and many lives were saved, hooray."

[metapunditedgy]

8. Yes, AND the memos now prove the precise and legal sense in which laws/treaties were broken.

It's no longer hearsay, politics, etc. Lawyers around the world now have concrete evidence that they can use to demonstrate that, e.g., the Geneva Conventions were violated by the Bush admin (and those working under it).

I think that's a big deal.

[napoleon_in_rags]

3. I think the real story is that NO good came out of it.

Like the Niger yellow cake, it was used as a means to fabricate reasons to go to war. They tortured people till they said whatever they wanted. Torture is a way to get people to say whatever you want, not find the truth. That is the real story as I see it.

[metapunditedgy]

7. Agreed, but I think that's a harder case to prove.

I think the released memos show clearly that the US was torturing, and the Bush admin is on the record denying that. End of story.

It's harder to prove (in a legal sense; though I'm no lawyer) that no good came of it. Partly because you're trying to prove a negative assertion.

[napoleon_in_rags]

18. Hehe, I think you're right, It would be hard to prove.

Because to claim what I'm saying requires that they know people being tortured won't tell the truth, which implies that they aren't idiots. But I'll tell you one thing, I would HATE to be the lawyer who has to convince a courtroom that GWB and administration aren't idiots! :P

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. Absolutely!!! It's Cheney mounting a defense in the public square vs

in a court of law where it should be taking place. He's attempting to taint a jury pool consisting of American citizens...ANY American citizens...and then claim he can't get a fair trial.

[Mist]

9. I agree that the media is giving too much air time to Darth's "rationale," but then the media is

complicit in much of Bushco's crime. They tell it like their corporate masters want it told.

[lostnotforgotten]

10. No Good Came From The Torture Practices - See NY Times Article Below

Snip ...

It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.

Snip ...

There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

[jimlup]

11. The US regularly violates international law

Particularly GW Bush et al.

[ejpoeta]

12. i'm waiting for the talk to stop being IF they will be prosecuted

but WHEN. when are they going to be prosecuted, given the obvious truth that they engaged in war crimes.

[malaise]

13. True but the other part of the big story is why they tortured

They tortured to cover up the lies over the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

[jtrockville]

14. The more rope we give 'em, the higher we can hang 'em.

Figuratively of course (I'm against hanging or any other kind of death penalty). But we also must wonder what will happen the next time a gang of thugs gains power if we let these thugs boast about their crimes and do nothing (meaningful) to punish them.

[many a good man]

15. The real issue is they were after false confessions

They wanted to gin up evidence to justify invading Iraq. They had to know that was the only thing these techniques were good for.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. That's huge. The admission they DID it, and,

much to their dismay, no doubt, the revelation of WHY.

They're treasonous bastards. There's a special place in hell for that crew.

[metapunditedgy]

17. Is there concrete evidence (e.g., memos) that they had such goals?

I haven't been following that part of the story carefully enough to know.

It sounds believable, but I think the stuff that will have the most impact going forward is stuff that has indisputable evidence behind it.