On UFOs and human motivations

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok, ok, some people say, well if they were real, they'd have destroyed us already... I mean their very advanced tech....

Apart of the fact that is actual projection of human motivations, because lord knows we would ...

What else could these very advanced beings be doing? (And yes, this is also a human motivation based on exactly what we have done over the last few hundred years, especially the last one hundred)... what if we are oddities? We are advanced enough to use WMDs and one step away from space travel... primitive, couldn't get far, but still

Imagine if you will a super advanced civilization with the curiosity of the hairless monkey on earth. Why not send anthropologists to study these primitives? Hells bells, we've done it. Need I mention the Yanonamo

Now unlike us, who sent people to do the studies in-situ, they have the capacity to do the observation at distance.

And for god sakes, we know how primitives behave after seeing advanced tech.. one particular culture in the south pacific created a religion out of planes they saw... wouldn't we?

Now there are theoretically ways to travel the incredible distances in space. Space Folds, warp drive (yes fer real), Quantum Holes... all of them theoretical to us, still hairless monkeys gazing upon the stars from this blue planet, But Drake's equation posits that life is not only possible, but in my view innevitable, in other planets. What tells me that other civilizations have not developed these methods of FTL? Just because we can't, does not mean others can't.

In fact, to believe that this cannot be done, and that there is no other life out there is quite human centric, and ahem, stupid

Will we ever know one way or the other? Well, assuming this is happening, our governments will hide it. There are many reasons to do that, and valid ones. There are also many reasons to come clean, but in our healthy human paranoia, the why not, will take precedence. Yes, governments are by nature pretty paranoid...

Oh and if tomorrow we had Aliens come clean, or governments come clean, I am willing to bet on either of two reactions, perhaps both depending where in the world... panic, and who cares.

As to why they're not helping us solve our problems? Why should they?

Of course this is pure speculation... but there is life out there... and I am positive advanced civilizations. Whether they are visiting this world or not is besides the point. And soon, we will have the technology to look at planets around nearby stars, and see if they are even candidates for life. In time, if we don't kill ourselves, we will find out we are not alone... fer sure...

Ah that will be a wonderful day, in my view... and a triumph of science... but for some in the religion bidness this will be a direct challenge... for others it will not be... I personally cannot wait for this to happen.

[rcrush]

1. I dont know why people think it will come to mass panic

Theres tons of reports of ufos and abductions and other sightings out there. Even the government admitted it decades ago. But if the MSM wont force feed it to people then they wont accept it. But I think if one day we saw proof of aliens on CNN then I think people might wake the fuck up and realize that our society and its petty problems dont mean shit. And we might actually try to improve ourselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. You would have panic in some places

fed probably by the end of timers crew.

For others it will be the who the hell cares?

When I played with the concept of humans finding they were not alone, the Tal actually fit the standard of we have advanced tech and we come to kill you, so there was some panic

In the real, world, if this is indeed happening the way I posit, the panic will be minimal, but be interpreted as the last sign by some...

[rcrush]

6. We'll probably see Marshall Law

But I think thats just an excuse for the elite to bring on their police state. I think they've been covering it up because they know the truth that aliens have been messing with human development since the beginning of civiliazation.



BTW I'm not being sarcastic or snarky. I believe some weird shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. I used that concept in the universe I created

human alien hybrids are real... and lord knows that explains the 900 years that Abraham lived, for real (not really)

[cali]

22. no we won't. and people who know so little about MARTIAL law

that they somehow confuse it with the Marshall plan, probably aren't the best people to rely on for speculation.

[Occam Bandage]

29. You'd think the intercessionary aliens would have a say

in whether they were detected. I suppose the Marshalls are just too darn powerful.

[hugo_from_TN]

45. Who's Marshall?

Why will he be making the laws?

[Occam Bandage]

46. Jude Law will portray a U.S. Marshall in a film.

It'll be a huge blockbuster.

[Mnemosyne]

50. Marshall whom?

:evilgrin:

[SoxFan]

105. Marshall Law. Plays third base for the Natinals.

[Mnemosyne]

114. Thought he was the second base...

:rofl:

[AngryAmish]

78. OK, off the internets with you

You can think what you want, but if you don't understand the marshall v. martial difference then you simply must go. Now.

[roguevalley]

53. I want to see it before I check out. :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. That's a weird thought - our sci-fi movies are nothing more than a

high tech cargo cult.

We are more primitive than we think.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. And I am one of the low priests of it

as I write sci fi

But indeed, you could see it that way

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. I once wanted to write sci-fi, but don't have a strong enough science

background to carry it off - currently working on my 4th (unpublished) fantasy novel. Fantasy, like science fiction, does have to follow strict rules but I get to make the rules up myself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I love fantastic realism, but cannot do fantasy to save my life

:-)

[JuniperLea]

5. Human motivations and technology

Did you hear about the iron-breathing species?

snip

The discovery of life in a place where cold, darkness, and lack of oxygen would previously have led scientists to believe nothing could survive comes from a team led by researchers at Harvard University and Dartmouth College. Their work was funded by the National Science Foundation, NASA, and Harvard's Microbial Sciences Initiative.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090416144512.htm

The key phrase there, I believe, is: "lack of oxygen would previously have led scientists to believe nothing could survive."

Some of the things we will find in nature will not adhere to the rules as we know them, yet you will get beat up and sent to the dungeon for suggesting such things.


Edited to say... even the Pope has said it's ok to believe in beings from another planet and UFO's and such. Maybe he's been clued in?

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. The Catholic Church learned the lesson of galileo

they are ahead of the curve.

I am also betting they are trying to decide if aliens have souls... and whether it is time to prepare to send people to try to convert, like they did back in 1500

[seemslikeadream]

9. (*_*)

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Thought you'd like that

:-)

[seemslikeadream]

13. One of my favorite "conspiracy theoryies" is Continental Drift

It only took 50 years of ridicule to become fact



After Wegener died, his Continental Drift Theory was quietly swept under the rug. With the Continent


http://www.scientus.org/Wegener-Continental-Drift.html

[Occam Bandage]

28. Yes, it became accepted as fact after irrefutable evidence was compiled.

That's the way things go in science: outlandish theories are ignored (as there is a never-ending supply of outlandish theories) until they're proven unarguably correct, at which point the theory is accepted and the backer is praised.

[seemslikeadream]

31. That's why we have to be opened minded about things, wouldn't you say?

[Occam Bandage]

34. It means we should analyze evidence with a critical eye, and accept the balance of evidence,

with the knowledge that future evidence might destroy our current theories.

[seemslikeadream]

37. and not to stone the folks that are looking for truth Never underestimate the authority-following

Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar (black holes in 1930, squashed by Eddington)
Chandra originated Black Hole theory and published several papers. He was attacked viciously by his close colleague Sir Arthur Eddington, and his theory was discredited in the eyes of the research community. They were wrong, and Eddington apparently took such strong action based on an incorrect pet theory of his own. In the end Chandra could not even pursue a career in England, and he moved his research to the U. of Chicago in 1937, laboring in relative obscurity for decades. Others rediscovered Black Hole theory thirty years later. He won the 1983 Nobel Prize in physics, major recognition only fifty years. Never underestimate the authority-following tendency of the physics community, or the power of ridicule when used by people of stature such as Eddington.

[Occam Bandage]

41. You'll note something about all of the people you've listed.

They all were able to vindicate their beliefs with evidence, and were honored afterward by the scientific community. If you wish for an extraordinary theory to be accepted as anything but crankery (as the overwhelming majority of extraordinary theories demonstrably are), then you had better provide extraordinary evidence.

It isn't "stoning" to tell someone, "the evidence does not support your claim," even when the evidence is ambiguous. New theories have the burden of proof, as well they should.

[seemslikeadream]

48. I'm just saying it takes time, that's all

and folks should not prejudge

[seemslikeadream]

14. and then there are these

Theoretically, television may be feasible, but I consider it an impossibility--a development which we should waste little time dreaming about.
- Lee de Forest, 1926, inventor of the cathode ray tube

I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.
- Thomas J. Watson, 1943, Chairman of the Board of IBM

It doesn't matter what he does, he will never amount to anything.
- Albert Einstein's teacher to his father, 1895

It will be years - not in my time - before a woman will become Prime Minister.
- Margaret Thatcher, 1974

This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us.
- Western Union internal memo, 1876

We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out.
- Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962

Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?
- H. M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927

640K ought to be enough for anybody.
- Bill Gates, 1981

Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction.
- Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
- Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949

We don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.
- Hewlett-Packard's rejection of Steve Jobs, who went on to found Apple Computers

King George II said in 1773 that the American colonies had little stomach for revolution.

An official of the White Star Line, speaking of the firm's newly built flagship, the Titanic, launched in 1912, declared that the ship was unsinkable.

In 1939 The New York Times said the problem of TV was that people had to glue their eyes to a screen, and that the average American wouldn't have time for it.

An English astronomy professor said in the early 19th century that air travel at high speed would be impossible because passengers would suffocate.

Airplanes are interesting toys, but they have no military value.
- Marshal Ferdinand Foch in 1911

With over 50 foreign cars already on sale here, the Japanese auto industry isn't likely to carve out a big slice of the U.S. market.
- Business Week, 1958

Whatever happens, the U.S. Navy is not going to be caught napping.
- Frank Knox, U.S. Secretary of the Navy, on December 4, 1941

Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau.
- Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, October 16, 1929.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Those are really good examples

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. They are really good examples of logical fallacies.

[JHB]

44. ...not just of logical fallacies, but which were exposed as such by...

...further experience.

As opposed to subjects that are perpetually "inconclusive", where progress is never made no matter what information is available, and nothing is ever discarded if it is shown to be false.

[Raksha]

47. Nice collection of Famous Last Words you've got there!

Very impressive, not to mention hilarious!

[corruptmewithpower]

11. Used to see UFOs every night when I lived near NAS Miramar.

Most of them sound like jet aeroplanes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. They were not UFOs though

But I am sure you knew that

These days they sound like jets and choppers by the way

[Occam Bandage]

20. Did he identify them? If not, I think they were.

[greyl]

67. I think corruptmewithpower was making a joke.

He identified the sarcastic "UFOs" as jet aeroplanes.

[seemslikeadream]

15. scientific community regarded Meteorites in the same way that modern scientists regard UFO abduction

scientific community regarded Meteorites in the same way that modern scientists regard UFO abduction


Chladni (meteorites in 1800)
The scientific community regarded Meteorites in the same way that modern scientists regard UFO abductions and psychic phenomenon: quaint superstitions only believed by peasant folk. All the eyewitness reports were disbelieved. At one point the ridicule became so intense that many museums with meteorites in their geology collections decided to trash those valuable samples. (Sometimes hostile skepticism controls reality, and the strongest evidence is edited to conform to concensus disbeliefs.) Finally in the early 1800's Ernst Chladni actually sat down and inspected the evidence professionally, and found that claimed meteorites were entirely unlike known earth rocks. His study changed some minds. At the same time some large meteor falls were witnessed by scientists, and the majority who insisted that only ignorant peasants ever saw such things were shamed into silence. The tide of disbelief shifted... yet this important event is not taught to science students, and those ignorant of such history repeat such failures over and over, as with the hostile disbelief regarding Ball Lightning.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Chladni+&btnG=Search

[Occam Bandage]

19. I think it is absolutely the height of human arrogance to assume

that the existence of life on other planets has anything to do with whether that life would want to go looking for us. Heck, the entire UFO concept is entirely human-centric. Their technology is almost identical to our own circa 1950, save a few handwaving abilities regarding travel. Apparently they cannot mask themselves from the visual spectrum, they lack observational equipment more powerful than a telescope, they lack nanobots or any sort of dispersed cloud of equipment, they can't study life without sticking probes inside it, they can't study the chemistry, anatomy, behavior, or anything else about humans without abducting them, they appear to be driven by the exact same drives that we possess, and according to many they even look like a simplified drawing of a human face. Everything about them is more or less a distorted reflection of how humanity sees itself, at a technology level that would have seemed fantastic in 1950 but is a strange mix of mundane and magical nowadays.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Please read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html

Oh and I did not say they were doing any of what the UFO community said they were doing

Remote observation of a primitive society does not involve any of these abductions

It is the height of human arrogance to believe that life, sentient life, is centered on earth.

It is actually an article of faith... religious faith...

And man was created in the image of god, kind of faith.

(genesis in case you wonder.... chapter one)

As to how an alien may look, go visit any descent natural history museum... look carefully at creatures that swam in the oceans of this world when dinosaurs ruled the earth, and compare and contrast with cetaceans that evolved 65 million years later... ever heard of the concept called parallel evolution? Yes, it is possible that evolution came up with a similar solution... in fact, life on earth came up with that exact morphology not two times, but three.

[Occam Bandage]

25. Well, it's good you're separating yourself from the UFO community.

As for parallel evolution? Certainly it is likely that alien life would strongly resemble Earth life. That is one of the problems with Drake's equation, I think. Nature has repeatedly demonstrated that there really are very few ways in which a niche will be filled. That's one of the reasons I think intelligent life is probably not very common (relatively speaking); it took a rather improbable string of events to get to where we are today. For one intelligent society to find another would be even harder than finding one needle in an entire ocean of hay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Even the lowest setting for Drake is ten advanced civilizations

capable of space travel

I played with the damn thing when creating the future nexus world...

So yes, it is possible that they are visiting this world, out of ahem, scientific curiosity...

Lord knows we have done the equivalent on ancient cultures on earth

Actually let me correct myself, I just redid it

0.045... series of numbers

using 1% for all values

It is still possible that ONE civilization apart of us is out there, visiting, not only us, but other evolving species

Curiousity mostly

[Occam Bandage]

32. There isn't a "lowest setting." You can always halve the probability of any one event.

Even still, let's go with ten advanced civilizations in the entire universe. Let's be silly and assume that they're all in contact, and that God himself has told them "yo, there's humans somewhere, go find 'em," and they've split up the stars to search. Each of those would have about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars to inspect. Let's guess that they're going to find us exactly halfway through their search. That would be 50,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars into their search. Let's assume that they can travel infinitely fast, and that it takes them only two minutes to travel to a star system and search the entire thing for life.

They would have found humanity about 1.9*10^14 years into their search. That would be 13,571 times as old as the universe itself is. Any particular civilization would find us after one hundred and thirty thousand ages of the universe.

And that's assuming that they want to find us. And, of course, in order for us to observe these hypothetical aliens, we have to assume that a civilization capable of traveling the length of the universe and scanning and analyzing an entire star system in two minutes would have to be utterly incapable of observing humans without slowly (that is to say, visibly) flying down, remaining within the visual spectrum, and poking at them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I still say it is the height of human hubris

to believe that this is not even possible

Sorry

It is

But if it makes you feel better, sure, it never happened and never will, and we will never discover how to travel FTL either

With that spirit, we'd still be hunting zebras in the savanah

[Occam Bandage]

38. There's a difference between "impossible" and "improbable."

And nothing I've said has anything to do with FTL travel. In fact, it assumes that not only is FTL travel possible, but practically instant travel is possible as well.

I highly doubt humanity will ever undertake such a search as I have described. Why would we bother? In order to do so, we'd have to first unlock every secret of the universe; getting from place to place would require us to simply wish away physics--which may be possible, but by the time we've done that, we've figured out how to do literally anything else. And once we know all the rules, and have the ability to manipulate the universe however we want, why would we need to go searching for particular accidents of probability when we could create the entire sum of creation for ourselves in our backyards?

It would be like an artist deciding not to paint, and not to sculpt, but rather to spend his life looking to see if there are any rocks out there that have been molded by nature into the shape of a pretty statue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Alas we are

we are using the technology we have

SETI and radio telescopes, and soon the deep space array

[Occam Bandage]

43. SETI is a major reason I don't believe in UFO theories.

We currently today have technology that allows us to analyze the chemical composition of stars from home, and to analyze and interpret radio frequencies without leaving our backyards. Observational technology is advancing much more quickly than our space-travel ability is. By the time we are capable of traveling to other star systems, we'll undoubtedly be able to figure out absolutely everything about the planets there without having to actually swoop down and dick around.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Alas you don't believe in this

that it is even probable

I fear that even if you had an alien walk down the street and smile at you (highly improbable) you'd still discount it...and for some folks the mind reels at even this possibility

That said, you said we wouldn't, but we are

there is a secondary reason for this, and Stephen Hawkins gets it... if we are to survive as a species we will need extra solar colonies

Me, perhaps we will develop the tech... perhaps not

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Oh, I doubt that.

If I actually met an alien, I'd believe it. Because that's actual evidence. Provided, of course, I exclude the possibility of hallucinations, mental illness, etc.

As for Stephen Hawking, his opinions on aliens don't matter any more than anybody else.

[Uncle Joe]

115. What if the advanced civilizations didn't need to travel first in order to detect

us or the solar systems most suitable for life?

If they had detection capabilities to locate planets with the essential ingredients water, etc. to support life, an atmosphere, the best distances to their relative stars, not too close, not too far, large outer gaseous planets to help in screening rogue asteroids and advanced computers that could almost instantly eliminate solar systems with low probabilities for life.

I imagine those numbers you cite could be dramatically reduced before they ever set sail.

I would think if they mastered interstellar space travel their long range detection equipment and advanced computers would make ours seem as bifocals and abacus.

Also, I'm not a math whiz so I can't tell when you started your search count today or billions of years ago?

[Occam Bandage]

24. Oh, and as for Drake's equation?

Eh. We have no idea how common abiogenesis is, we don't know how common the leap to eukaroytic cells would be, and we don't know how common it is for a photosynthesizer to arise, or how common it is for aerobic life to arise. Each of those are necessary for complex life outside of very stringent conditions, we don't know if there are any alternatives, and yet each apparently only evolved once in recorded history. After all, each only could have evolved once, as after having done so it would immediately refine itself and fill every possible niche, lacking any competitors but itself. A second coming of abiogenesis would certainly just be immediately eaten, after all. We don't know if those are once-in-a-never events, or if they happen anywhere it's possible for them to happen.

Additionally, we do know that advanced intelligence is probably at least somewhat uncommon, given that it only evolved one time in one genus on Earth, despite seemingly ample opportunity, and it required a just-right and frankly improbable number of mass extinction events in order to do so.

[gulfcoastliberal]

108. We're some arrogant SOBs, sending all these probes to dead planets.

Why wouldn't advanced civilizations not want to explore habitable planets. Your argument makes no sense! Maybe we're in a particularly good part of the galaxy, convenient to trade lanes, etc.

[cali]

21. hardly anything original in your speculation

and i doubt the reaction by anybody would be "who cares".

[Echo In Light]

26. I've always liked the Invasion/Body Snatchers idea: seeds, not "space ships" lol

[seemslikeadream]

35. At one point the Sphinx was just a head

It is good to keep digging

[Raksha]

36. You're not the only one! I'm looking forward to it myself, and I've never even seen a UFO.

Re Ah that will be a wonderful day, in my view... and a triumph of science... but for some in the religion bidness this will be a direct challenge... for others it will not be... I personally cannot wait for this to happen.

Furthermore, I believe it's going to happen very soon, within the next few months or years. And here's why I believe this: There has been a sudden rash of UFO posts on DU over the past few days, reflecting the sudden increase in UFO stories in the media. And I believe this "unexplainable" increase in UFO stories has a rather simple and obvious explanation.

I don't think it's tinfoil-hat in the least at this point to say the government has been suppressing and denying the existence of extraterrestrials and alien visitations for decades. But the ETs ARE an advanced species, after all. They don't take orders from any government, and even the BFEE, with its power of life and death over millions of human beings, has no power over them because of their advanced technology.

So if the ETs have decided (for whatever reason) to reveal themselves in an incontrovertible way, there wouldn't be one damn thing the PTB could do about it. ALL they could do is what they already do so well, and that is to "prepare" the public for the impending revelation through their control of the media--including the Internet.

This is the reason for the sudden increase in both the NUMBER of stories and the generally more POSITIVE TONE of those stories. From what I've seen so far, they are far more positive and less patronizing towards UFOlogists than in the past.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. I dunno if this is gonna happen soon

but it will...

in the span of human history.

It is the height of hubris to believe we're alone

[Raksha]

42. I already explained my reasons for believing it's going to happen in the near future.

No point in repeating myself...either I'm right or I'm wrong, and I don't have a whole lot of ego invested in the question anyway. I'm just very, very INTERESTED!

[bluelamp]

52. Hi Raksha!

Feel free to repeat yourself, I'm new here... but not new to you, I was John G on Prodigy or was it AKJ025 or something like that.

It's a 2012 aka revelations aka return of the triple goddess aka return to Eden after 309,000 years of the fall (it's the planet that would return via conformal degrees of freedonm physics-wise). There are good angels and bad ones (aka good and bad aliens) so you have to be careful.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/thebeast.htm
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?board=19.0

[Raksha]

58. HEY!!! Wonderful to "see" you, Bluelamp!!!

Did you know I did a Google search on your posts about a week ago, or are you just psychic? Oh hell, I already know you're psychic...I'm just happy to see it's working as well for you as it ever did. Maybe even better! I'm even happier to tell you the same thing is true for me. It's working as well for me as it ever did, with synchronicities and reunions all over the damn place! GOOD ONES, too!!!
:loveya: :hug: :toast: :loveya: :hug: :toast:

[Raksha]

60. I didn't get further than your screen name, and I just HAD to reply right away.

I saw the name "Bluelamp" and I knew who you were. WELCOME TO DU!!! I'm happy to have the honor of having your first post addressed to me.

[Raksha]

61. I am aware of that, and have already taken it into account.

Re There are good angels and bad ones (aka good and bad aliens) so you have to be careful.

I can't even begin to tell you how synchronistic this is. The subject line of this reply was a kind of shorthand. Now to check out your links!

[bluelamp]

66. Very synchronistic...

I got here by googling actually yahooing you. Was planning to wait rather reviving a tomato post (as my kids right now watch Bob the tomato). Then on this fast scrolling general discussion (I can see why you might want to use the subject line), a couple interesting looking UFO posts zoom by and you are actually there, how convenient, I can even add to the subject while reintroducing myself.

I've actually heard of this place here before via the forum/website I gave a link to. Not surprisingly you guys have discussed Cassiopaea and Laura Knight Jadczyk here too. I found that site via Laura's husband who is a physicist friend of a physicist friend of mine.

There's another person I lost contact with who later got into interesting research about what the government is doing (found via yahoo)... we're all getting drawn down an interesting yellow brick road...

[Raksha]

71. So YOU did a search for ME today,

and just last week I did a search for YOU! It started out as a Facebook search, because I was finding all kinds of old friends on Facebook. Not just Prodigy people, but even a few old friends from my hippie days in the Sixties. In fact, the very first person to answer my friend request fits that description. But you weren't on Facebook, so then I did a Google search and looked at some of your articles.

But how to find an opening, so that I could post SOME kind of semi-intellgent comment to make you aware of my presence? I mean...the air gets pretty rarified up there in the high country of the mind (Pirsig), and it appears that even some of your physicist friends get dizzy when they try to follow you. For us mere mortals who can't do the math it's flat-out impossible! So I ended up not saying anything.

Re I've actually heard of this place here before via the forum/website I gave a link to. Not surprisingly you guys have discussed Cassiopaea and Laura Knight Jadczyk here too. I found that site via Laura's husband who is a physicist friend of a physicist friend of mine.

That's true. I first became aware of the Cassiopaea site about six months ago, or it could have been a year ago, by following up a link on DU. That's when I first read some of Laura's writings, and I read part of her long essay again today after I clicked on your link. They make sense UP TO A POINT, but then they turn very dark and disturbing, especially if the reader is Jewish. I tried to e-mail you about that this afternoon, but all I could find was an old Prodigy e-mail address that doesn't work any more.

I was unaware there was a forum on the Cassiopaea site until today. I did see some of your posts addressed to Laura's husband Ark on the Science topic, and they were pretty much what I would have expected from you. But I saw things on some of the other topics that really sent up red flags, and I decided I'm not going to register or post there. I'd never last anyway. Sooner or later (probably sooner) I'd call Laura an anti-Semite and a control freak, she'd tombstone me and that would be that.

But I'm still overjoyed to see you again!!!

[bluelamp]

73. Well according to Laura...

via the Cs, there was no crucifixion, the dead man on a stick (as Laura the ex-Christian fundie refers to it) never happened. She has used the Sefirot points to display the "structure" of the good and bad aliens. One of her forum moderators lives in Israel. She is no more anti-Israel/Judaism than we are anti-U.S. cause of Bush.

The dead man on a stick (the one last Lauraish thing I haven't told my wife yet) was a creation of Greek enforcers. Jesus and Moses both ascended via direct good angel/alien contact. Both had their message distorted by bad angel/alien influences and both had a special after life role related to prayer (there were others of other "religions" with this role too). The Cs mention Jesus was Joshua in a previous life.

There was a Star Trek episode where the "good" Federation was continuously in battle with "bad" Klingons without anyone dying and behind the scenes some aliens were feeding off the "energy". That's what we are, we were made to fight each other life after reincarnated life to give "food for the moon" (as Gurdjieff called it) to the bad angels/aliens. Monotheism killed the Goddess.

In the Star Trek episode, Kirk finally woke up to what was happening, it was all a set up, we in a lot of ways need to do the same. The Goddess is set to return, which of her two faces will we see?

Ark once asked the Cs how to get more physics insight and the answer was by studying Jung and Gurdjieff. Chakras, centers, Enneagram, Wheel of Life, Tree of Life, the Wizard of Oz (a Cs inspiration), all have a head-heart-gut structure. Apparently you can model angels/aliens on this structure but you can also model physics.

Head-heart-gut would be unimodular relativity-general relativity-special relativity. Special and general relativity are just Einstein. Unimodular relativity is not well studied. It was a term coined by the somewaht famous advisor of my physicist friend (Tony Smith) who has Ark (and Laura) as friends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Finkelstein

Unimodular relativity is like general relativity except the Cosmological constant can vary with time and space which could create interesting vacuum situations related to going back to Eden. The recently low sun spot counts and that comet that did that unexpected explosion are supposedly related to all of this.

There will be related earth changes too like changes in the relative rotation speeds of the crust and mantle. This isn't supernatural, it's all natural.

You could try the email link for my userid here. Apparently I don't have enough posts here to test it out or email you that way.

[Raksha]

84. Well, ya know...I've always reserved the right to make my own judgment call

as to what is or is not anti-Semitic.

Re One of her forum moderators lives in Israel. She is no more anti-Israel/Judaism than we are anti-U.S. cause of Bush.

I've heard all the standard disclaimers and denials so many times I have them memorized at this point. And if I'm ever in any danger of forgetting (not likely!) I can always pay a little visit to the Israel/Palestine "dungeon" here on DU. It's pretty much a perpetual flame war but often there is good information posted. I am in the Jewish peace camp and depend on Ha'aretz, J Street PAC (the anti-AIPAC)and two progressive rabbis (Michael Lerner and Arthur Waskow) as sources of information.

I would love to comment on the other points you raised in your post, but I feel embarrassed about carrying what amounts to a private conversation on a public board like this. It's true that you haven't been around here long enough to send or receive private messages (PMs), and I still don't have a current e-mail address for you.

Not to mention the fact that a lot of this is off-topic, although you did mention ETs several times in your post. Just for the record: I know very little about what are purported to be the various "races" of aliens, the Cassiopaeans and even the "greys" that I've heard people talk about. I know I could easily find out, but I've never been that interested since none of it is verifiable.

Even when I read the writings of various channelers, I tend to gloss over whatever they claim about the "species" (is that the right word?) of their sources. After all, I'm a channeler myself and would never dare to make that kind of definitive pronouncement about my OWN sources! I have never been able to determine whether they are aspects of my own unconscious (i.e. Jungian archetypes) or actual "entities" of some kind. Often I think they are a little of both...if that makes any sense (which it probably doesn't). So why should I take someone else's word for something like that? I would really like to think I'm not THAT much of a gullible fool!

Re There was a Star Trek episode where the "good" Federation was continuously in battle with "bad" Klingons without anyone dying and behind the scenes some aliens were feeding off the "energy". That's what we are, we were made to fight each other life after reincarnated life to give "food for the moon" (as Gurdjieff called it) to the bad angels/aliens.

Oh yes, so-called "psychic vampires" definitely exist and I've run into more of my share of them, both in RL and online. And FED more than my share of them, I'm sorry to say. However, I don't believe they are aliens but simply very screwed-up fellow humans, commonly known on the Internet as TROLLS!

In other words...Don't feed the trolls is very good advice both on the exoteric and the esoteric levels.

:fistbump:

[bluelamp]

86. This should give you my email...

Start with my first and middle initial (jc) and add my last name @yahoo.com.

The Cs themselves say their transcripts as we have them are only 70% accurate (they say the Bible is 30% accurate). The Cs information is much like the Ra information as far as aliens are concerned (I've never read the Ra stuff or any other channeling stuff for that matter). For me it's just very good physics including the physics of life which I was into before finding the Cs.

Even one normal Discover magazine article on the fate of the universe mentioned disembodied quantum life. That would be like the Cs. The angels (good and bad) have variable physicality though when here they are all physical. The grays are actually manufactured life forms doing work for the bad aliens (the so called Reptilian ones). There's also Nordics who look quite like us when here (good and bad).

To a large extent it is good to focus on things that can be verified (like the psychopathic Bush administration). If aliens are important we'll get there when we get there.

[Raksha]

89. Are you familiar with the book called "Meditations on the Tarot"?

The subtitle is "A Journey Into Christian Hermeticism." The author insisted that it be published posthumously and anonymously, although his real identity isn't hard to discover through Wikipedia and/or Google. Our friend Chris from Prodigy sent it to me several years ago and it fascinates me endlessly, although I find the author's nonstop apologies for the Roman Catholic Church irritating to say the least (he was a convert to Catholicism). You might or might not have the same objections--I really don't know where you're at as far as the Church is concerned these days.

Re Even one normal Discover magazine article on the fate of the universe mentioned disembodied quantum life. That would be like the Cs. The angels (good and bad) have variable physicality though when here they are all physical. The grays are actually manufactured life forms doing work for the bad aliens (the so called Reptilian ones). There's also Nordics who look quite like us when here (good and bad).

The connection here is what you said about "manufactured life forms." The author of the Tarot book mentions those too, although according to him they are not physical but astral life forms. He uses the French word egregore to describe them, but they are not ETs or created by ETs. They are "manufactured" by the human mind through prolonged concentration/imagination/desire, to the point where they become perceptible to other people besides their creator.

I think there could really be something to that. For one thing, it would make every fictional character a "manufactured life form." I happen to believe they are just that--at least the successful or believable characters. Writers of fiction are always saying their characters eventually take on a life of their own, to the point where the writer can't "make" the character do anything he/she doesn't want to do!

Thanks for the hint about your e-mail address. I'm pretty sure I can work it out from that.

[bluelamp]

107. I haven't read that but it sounds like...

the Bermuda Triangle.

Q: (L) Does this mean that this was a "Flight 19" of a parallel reality
that went through a window into our reality?
A: Close.
Q: (L) Was this part of or connected to the loss of our "Flight 19?"
Did we exchange realities here?
A: It is the thought patterns that effect the reality, when that window
is opened, all thought can become physical reality, though only
temporarily.
Q: (L) Does this mean that the divers' and searchers' thoughts about
this became reality?
A: And all others.
Q: (T) All others involved in the search?
A: All others on the planet.
Q: (T) Even those that did not believe that the searchers were going
to find them?
A: Yes. Researchers found what they expected to find, but when
others heard the news, other things started to happen according to
which thought patterns dominated.
Q: (L) So, in other words, if somebody believed that it was Flight
19, it appeared, and if somebody did not believe it was Flight 19, it
disappeared?
A: Yes.

[Raksha]

85. I forgot to mention that there is a group here at DU

called Astrology, Spirituality & New Age Healing. I lurk there from time to time but usually don't post, although I did post last night. Here's the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=245

You have to be a donor to post to any of the DU groups, but ANY donation is acceptible. It can even be $5.00 if that's all you can afford.

I don't know if there's a Speculative Physics or Quantum Physics group around here, though. If you stick around, you'll probably have to start it yourself! :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. I understand... and when it happens it will be amusing

that said, I do not believe aliens act in human affairs, just as I don't believe a god acts in human affairs.

:-)

You might call me a real bad non-believer

And if it happens tomorrow it will change world culture...just like it will change world culture if it happens one thousand years from now assuming we don't blow each other to kingdom come

[mvd]

49. Definitely hope the files are released

I don't even think our human brains could even comprehend what aliens that advanced might be thinking. Until proven otherwise, the alien theory is a fascinating one.

[yodermon]

51. What I want to know, is why does everyone AUTOMATICALLY think "Aliens"

when they hear the word "UFO"?
It's in our collective unconscious.
It's fucking pavlovian.

What it *really* is, (probably) is a brilliant case of poisoning the well.

e.g., http://io9.com/5207639/area-51-is-declassified-and-its-project-leads-speak-out

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Of course, 99.9% of all UFOs are under contract with the US

Air Force...

Aproximate quote from a Skunk Works engineer

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. As soon as you identify the craft as alien, it's no longer unidentified.

There's lots of UFO's. Wake me when you identify something interesting.

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. You think governments can detect aliens who are that advanced?

Any alien that can come here must have technology way beyond anything we approach. They'd have to rewrite our understanding of physics to make it here. So they won't come here and hang around in large floating saucers with lots of lights on the side. They'd be able to observe us without any of us having a clue.

Anyone who thinks that governments, notoriously incompetent about so many things, have the proof of aliens, but are keeping it quiet, reveals much about their feelings about governments, but nothing about whether there are aliens watching us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Yep, you,made my point thank you

what part of distant observation of us did you miss?

As to governments, well when they are properly motivated they can and have kept secrets

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. And you promptly unmake your own point

It's not just a question of whether they can keep secrets - it's whether you think governments are advanced beings capable of keeping up with aliens whose technology is far, far beyond anything we approach.

And if you think they're using distant observation alone, why mentions UFOs?

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. First accidents happen, even for advanced technologies

second, governments are pretty good at keeping secrets

There are many reasons why governments would be properly motivated to keep this away from populations, assuming they have indeed direct evidence that this is happening

You are truly aware of that, aren't you?

For secrets kept... try to find out what the US Government does at Los Alamos National Lab... Or Sandea, good luck

[eShirl]

62. "In time, if we don't kill ourselves, "

That's looking like a mighty big "if" to me at this point. :(

[OxQQme]

65. Alien is a negative meme

What if an off-worlders came and presented themselves, on the sly, as, let's say, a tall, thin, half black, half white, intelligent, emphatic dude with a hot babe for a wife and a couple of snazzy girl children.
They become very popular world wide.
Everybody wishes to be seen with them.
They have "OUR' best interests as a guiding philosophy.
They succeed.
Racism disappears along with the other -isms.
We 'discover' how to make the energy needed for our existence out of the cosmos from a microwave oven sized collector.
Because we've been told that it's OK to seek outside the box solutions.
Here's the funding.

[hunter]

68. Advanced civilizations don't take up a lot of room.

The most advanced among them occupy less space than a hydrogen atom.

You're not gonna see many of them flitting around in space ships. You could piss one out and flush it down the toilet and you'd never know, and they wouldn't care.

They're everywhere, more common than dirt.

[Raksha]

72. I never thought about it before, but you're probably right!

Did you ever read "Little, Big" by John Crowley? You might like it.

[dorkulon]

69. You're right--it is pure speculation.

Warp drive is not for real. All of those theories are just that--theories, with no testing at all. The reason we can't go faster than light is that it would take more than all of the energy in the universe to propel matter at that speed--I dont really see anyone getting around that, much less still being alive after any kind of FTL travel. I liked Battlestar Galactica too, but it is nothing but fiction. To assume that it is possible to transport a living organism in a way that violates everything we know about the universe, and that the organism would survive it, based on science fiction and wishful thinking, is, ahem, stupid.

Alien life on other planets? Surely. Intelligent life? probably. Faster-than-light traveling exobiologists? I seriously doubt it. I'd love to be wrong, but I doubt it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Well Alcubierre has been busy working on his Warp equations

and now they no longer require all the energy in the universe

What says that an advanced civilization has a way to get from there to here, without needing all the energy in the universe?

:-)

And that is the point

And if they are out there... I am betting we are on the galactic tourist map, mostly because we must be entertaining, from a scientific point of view

The same way we found the Yanonamo interesting.

Which is all but nice, if you think about it. We are so primitive that an advanced culture sees us the same way we saw primitive societies in the Amazon. an object of study.

Yep, that will go well with most people.. who think we are the most advanced shit since sliced bread.

In fact, the whole concept is kind of humbling

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. No. You are thinking that all life must be like us

and that's what's makes your assertions that 'accidents happen, even for advanced technologies' truly laughable. You really think you are within reach of a culture that can cross space, and can decide that they have 'accidents' just like us. That's absurd.

Anything capable of crossing interstellar space doesn't just "see us the same way we saw primitive societies in the Amazon"; they must be way more advanced than that. Any other human is the same species as us - basically as intelligent as us. We know that they largely think like us. You have absolutely no idea what life on other planets is like, or how it behaves. They are (because I do think the likelihood is that life exists on other planets) more alien to us than an octupus is. This is why your thought that governments might know what's going on, if aliens have come here, is silly. Governments are human, like us. The only thing that's sillier is your use of 'tourist', and your idea that you can think what entertains aliens.

You are nowhere near humble enough.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. And you think we are alone in the universe,

that falls in the god created man in his own image category

No, it is humble to think that we are not alone, that others have a scientif interest in other forms of life, and yes, accident do happen

In fact, you have a higher rate of accidents as your technology increase.. the serious kind that is

There is more, as your technology increases, those accidents tend to be more serious

read a little on the history of science and technology

Me, we are not alone.... period

That also means that there are species across the galaxy everywhere in the evolutionary tree, from very advanced, to life just emerging.

And I am possitive that life has encoded in it, curiosity...

Perhaps you should read a little on things like the Drake equation

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. I just said "I do think the likelihood is that life exists on other planets"

so it seems you're not actually reading all of my posts.

I've been familiar with the Drake equation for decades. It does not, however, talk about the challenges of crossing interstellar space. You continue to think that you, as a human, are comparable with lifeforms capable of this, and that you can understand their behaviour. That is not humble.

I don't accept "you have a higher rate of accidents as your technology increase". Show your evidence for this is you really think it's true.

"And I am possitive that life has encoded in it, curiosity" is meaningless twaddle, fit for a fortune cookie.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Study the history of technology

serious accidents do increase with technology

That said, you are the one who thinks this is not possible

I guess crossing the Atlantic back in 1491 wasn't possible either.... and people would fall off the edge of the world

This falls in the category of we cannot do it, nobody else can

I am also taking the assumption that an advanced civilization can do what we can't... or what we cannot even conceive off

thats is the bloody point

There are many problems to crossing the amazing distances between Earth and Alpha centauri, for example or Barnard Six, our two closest systems (Yes the Alpha Centauri System has three stars not one, Alpha just happens to be one, with Kentaurus Rigel and Proxima the other two)

that does not mean that another civilization has not found a way around that

Improbable, yes, impossible no.

Hell in a Quantum universe, in another parallel world we already solved that problem too.

Yep things get weird in QM

Of course there are others where we never rose from the muck, and yet others where Bush became the President of the National Baseball League and we never went to war in Iraq... if you really want to get into the weird stuff. In fact, that is even weirder than even thinking that somewhere in the hundreds of millions of galaxies another intelligent species has risen, and gee golly... solved that problem of interstellar travel.

[Raksha]

87. About Warp drives...

My friend Bluelamp, who just signed up with DU yesterday, could explain to you how a Warp drive could theoretically work, complete with equations and diagrams. The only problem is that you probably wouldn't understand them. Okay, maybe YOU would, but I quickly get in over my head when I try to follow him at those high levels of abstraction. I guess what I really need to do is read a BASIC book on quantum physics. *IS* there such a thing as "Quantum Physics For Dummies"? If not there should be!!!

Re Well Alcubierre has been busy working on his Warp equations and now they no longer require all the energy in the universe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. There are some basic books at the bookstores

a counsin of mine has several advanced degrees in physics, (quantum), and when I started explaining to him how the 'Brane drive in teh future nexus world MIGHT work, his eyes twinkled, I don't get the physics at the equation level, but he said I was onto something

Basically if string physics is correct, a drive that can enter a higher membrane and use that to traverse time-space

[bluelamp]

113. Yes from a string theory viewpoint...

You can think of the way branes are used to model bosons (force particles) and with a higher brane degree of freedom, you can get shortcuts. Even without referencing string theory, you can still model these bosons:

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/SegalConf.html#shapechanging

[gauguin57]

70. I saw a UFO several years ago. Weird lights in the sky that I couldn't explain.

No big deal. Just saw it, got a little spooked, then sort of stared up in awe, realized I had an open mind about the whole thing, and then went in the house. I'll always be glad I had that experience.

Dennis Kucinich and I know the truth is out there.

[Blue-Jay]

75. Jesus was a space alien.

So is John Stamos.

[AngryAmish]

79. I have hair.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. Failing to "believe" is stupid? I guess that's one way of looking at it.

We're alone. There's only one radio spectrum and we're the only critters using it.

The Fermi paradox has only one answer.

Prove me wrong. It's not up to me to prove a negative.

[mainegreen]

82. Absent evidence of alien life, your assumption it exists is the stupid one.

And Drake's equation predicts nothing without proper data, which we do not have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. So you believe the data coming from Mars,

regarding water, and possibly fossils in Antarctica coming from Mars are just figments of my imagination?

Perhaps also the elements of life found on meteorites are also a figment of my imagination? (australian meteorite)

What will it take, a smiling alien going hi?

We are finding more and more compelling evidence that life ain't that rare... granted, some of the forms it will take may make it difficult for us to see it as ahem, life... see extremofiles

I am sure somewhere the evolution deniers are going... holly sheet, how about this? Life might not be exclusive to Earth... quick get head in hole!

[mainegreen]

96. There is no solid evidence for life elsewhere.

There is also no solid evidence against life elsewhere.

There is frankly a complete paucity of data.

The reasonable man would continue to collect data and reserve judgment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Which is exact;l;y what they are doing

but I fear once they find evidence, people will continue to refuse, mostly out of religious belief

See deep space array... one more step towards that goal

[mainegreen]

98. Well, deniers like to deny.

And they do hate science so.

The last ten years have been amazing, though.

I'm amazed at how much further we can see into the universe.
Thank goodness science funding never truly dried up, but could you imagine if even 5% of the military budget went to science?

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. I can, and why I posted the OP

there are several problems with UFO theories

The first is to ascribe human motivations, beyond basic curiosity...

That I suspect is encoded in advanced life forms... and we see it among primates and I see it with my parrots... as well as cetaceans

The other, and that is the deniers... that if we can't. nobody can.

So for the purpose of the exercise I went... ok they're real... what could these advanced beings be doing? Where the Yanomamo came in

But back in what we have as science... we will know soon if extra solar planets that can support life are out there. That is in the realm of possibility. And not as a coincidence, one of the bodies in-question may be around a star I chose for my sci fi world. I have incorporated some of that science... and of course quite a bit of the myths.

I love the Chariots of the Gods purely as fiction...

:-)

But on a high level mental exercise I refuse to discount the existence of advanced civilizations out there... perhaps on the outlier ten of them. And for that I love what Sagan had to say. But I;m also aware of that Hawkins has said...we will need to develop that tech if the species is to survive. So that drive may actually encourage a more advanced civilization to cross the stellar ocean

[mainegreen]

100. fusion and hollowed out asteriods.

Those are the ticket.

If we get those worked out, I think we'll have secured our future enough to check out the local neighborhood.

In person!

:D

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. short term, absolutely

:-)

[Soylent Brice]

83. i still daydream about being rescued/abducted by aliens.

i don't know what's taking them so long.

[JackDragna]

88. Whether other intelligent life exists is a moot point.

The universe, much less our own galaxy, is so impossibly huge that civilizations could spend thousands of years looking for other intelligent life and not find much of anything. Our own galaxy, by very conservative estimates, contains about 250 billion stars, and probably many more than that. Unless a civilization has a method, utilizing incredibly advanced technology, to detect electromagnetic emissions from distant places, the chance of a spacefaring civilization finding another like it is roughly equivalent to the chance of a person leaving a jellybean somewhere on Earth and expecting others to find it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Improbable yes, impossible not

and that is the point

Those who fail to udnerstand this have a problem in my view.

And if we are to assume that an advanced civilization has come to earth, which is the thing a community keeps telling us is happening, we need to ask WNY

Well, in my view if they are... it is the anthtro class from Z-699374 that finds us quite entertaining

And the antropology students are not going to get involved in what we do

But if they are... I'd say it is for scientific curiosity

To me it is the height of hubris to believe that only this planet has evolved an advanced civilization....

And some of those answers will start to come in as the deep space array comes online

[JackDragna]

110. Sure, it's not impossible.

But the chances of it happening are so close to zero, it might as well be zero. I also don't particularly believe we're being visited by any advanced civilizations. The things people see in the sky changes based on technology - when everyone was religious, they saw the virgin Mary and angels. When the tech age hit, suddenly there were flying saucers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. devil's advocate

read both ezequiel and the Vedas

You might be in for a surprise

[IDemo]

102. Travel immense distances by flying disc? A better method certainly must exist

Beam up my blueprints.

It's a bit human-chauvinistic to assume other civilizations would pile into the intergalactic equivalent of a Hummer just to come here for up-close observations.
Even at relativistic speeds, such a trip would still be cumbersome. While super spacecraft probably would be developed by any alien technology, the limited number
of destinations they could reach in a vast universe would very likely lead to more elegant solutions in short order, if not an abandonment of the search.

The method I would use to make myself known to other advanced beings is quite simply to encode the blueprint for the creation, feeding and care of a human and
broadcasting it toward likely targets. The assumption is that a civilization which is sufficiently advanced both technologically and ethically would choose to follow
the directions for building a human explorer(s). They would show her their world or worlds, educate her on their science, history and culture, and broadcast the
compilation of the newly educated adventurer back to Earth (or Earth colony) for reconstruction. Maybe with a few copies of the native Einsteins and Mozarts thrown in.

Doing such a thing using our current radio technology would probably be as limiting or more so than the above super-saucer scenario. But when, or if, methods become
available to tunnel through space time, this may become the accepted method of intergalactic introductions.

/two cents

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Notice I didn't even mention flying discs

which have some very serious issues in atmospheric flight

I am assuming extremely advanced tech though

Quantum tunnels? Perhaps

Time space folds, theoretically possible

As to why?

I explained it in the OP... the same kind of curiosity as to what these primitives are doing as to ours over the Yanonamo and other primitive societies. That I fear is encoded in advanced species.

Now... I'm only presenting a what if... but I didn't mention a cute flying disk.

It is quite inefficient at multiple levels and the Havilland Company learned just how unstable in the early 1960s... for real

[IDemo]

104. The discs were rhetorical,

Just meant to illustrate that the concept of using a physical vehicle of any shape is unlikely for a civilization much more advanced than ours.
And virtually all intelligent species are much more advanced than we, merely by consideration of our young history with tools and science.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. You are familiar with the statement by Stephen Hawkins

that will require us to leave the home system if we are to survive as a species?

That requires physical vehicles...

[IDemo]

109. Not necessarily, for two reasons

One, the method I described above could potentially provide the means to move the species by telling others "out there" how to build humans and human living requirements such as our atmosphere. And it could do so not just in one solar system but eventually many. The blueprints might even be relayed along the galactic internet so everyone who wants to has a chance to meet us. Think of it as a Galactic Seed Bank approach, with our DNA encoded instead of frozen.

The other reason, however, is more substantial, IMHO. Where is it written that humanity must continue to exist in precisely the same form as we do now? Even if disease is eventually completely conquered, is it really desirable for humans to retain our present physical, emotional and mental states? What if, along with discovering and developing the means to travel at warp speed, we engineered brains and bodies with far greater capacity than we have now? And what if such humans carried none of their present genetic material? That would certainly offend many in our current culture, but the idea has been proposed by futurist Ray Kurzweil that we will achieve unbelievable physical and mental levels this century, using Moore's_law to illustrate the principle. And, this is again just a blink of an eye in time relative to our history.

Would the Universe weep if humanity simply ceased to be? We like to think so, but here's some perspective on that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw

In any case, I don't find the concepts of Super People or an interstellar lifeboat of any form very likely if the catastrophes we face now are not dealt with immediately.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Well at that point you enter the realm of where I have gone in fiction

at one point or another the universe evolves beings that don't need a physical body

Imagine if you will blobs of intelligent energy. These blobs will, at the great unraveling, bring together enough matter and energy to get the next big bang... and the cycle begins again, but their sentience is lost or remains only as universal consciousness?

Of course this posits the kind of evolution we have yet to see, but the fantastic species I have that has done that have been around for oh half a billion years

So yes, I can conceive of that

but in our current state... we need vehicles

Now in 10K years, assuming we make it over the course of the next hundred, that is a different story

As to the universe depending on us being around... you kidding me?

we have been around for the last second of the galactic clock. We ain't essential for the galactic clock. If we make it to two seconds, I would personally be surprised.

Of course won't be here, so this is speculation purely