Rec this if you support Obama... AND consider legal action on torture imperative.

[D23MIURG23]

I'm tired of being called an "Obama basher". I donated to Obama, volunteered to help him get elected, and voted for him. I support Obama, and I want him to succeed as president. I don't see any contradiction between that and being frustrated with his current stands on one of the most important issues facing us.

Rec this if you support Obama, and intend to pressure him and the other Dems to take meaningful action on torture anyway.

[meegbear]

1. What if you support Obama OR consider legal action on torture imperative?

[bjobotts]

49. It's not up to Obama.It's up to Holder and he doesn't take orders fromt he WH

[bjobotts]

50. Please get it straight.The AG does not work for the WH. The AG decides who gets prosecuted

[bjobotts]

51. The AG's job is to enforce and carry out the laws of the nation and works for the people

[bjobotts]

52. Obama would be politicizing the DoJ if he says who should be prosecuted. which is illegal

[MessiahRp]

65. Why do you always post subject line replies to yourself?

It seems like a silly way to drive up post counts but not really contribute to the discussion. Post all of your thoughts in a paragraph form and if someone replies, post in response to their comments...

These always read like some insane conversation you're having back and forth with yourself and the voices in your head.

Rp

[ourbluenation]

2. that just about sums up where I'm at. Love him to bits but they need to be prosecuted. n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Giving War Crimes A Pass, Warrentless Wiretapping...

trillions in "heads you win, tails we lose" loans to bankers, reneging on renegotiating NAFTA, breaking the UAW...

I'm not feeling very good about this at all.

[SammyWinstonJack]

73. Neither am I.

x(

[ginnyinWI]

4. I support Obama--but it's not his job.

He's not the Atty. General. He's supposed to be getting the repair work done, and he is. It's not his job to mete out retribution for "who done it" as well.

I say pressure Holder and also the Congress to go after them. If Obama indicates he's going to pardon any of them, then thats a time to get on his case.

[MannyGoldstein]

5. It's Obama's Responsibility To Uphold The Law

The AG works for him. War crimes were unquestionably committed.

Our independent judiciary will determine innocence or guilt.

[Cali_Democrat]

9. You're somewhat wrong

The AG does fall under the executive branch, but the AG should be the one to weigh the evidence and decide whether or not charges will be filed. The office should be free of political influence when it comes to deciding who should be prosecuted and who shouldn't be.

That's why an Independent Counsel, appointed by the AG, may be necessarily. It really shouldn't have anything to do with the President himself and Obama should stay away from this and let Holder work his magic.

That being said, did you just catch the Obama presser not too long ago? Obama said it is up do the AG to determine whether or not laws were broken with regard to the torture of terror suspects.

It's looking more and more possible that there will be prosecutions.

You should be happy, Manny.

[frylock]

8. obama hired the attorney general..

it's his job to LEAN on the AG to get the work done. If the AG, or Obama for that matter, aren't up to the task, perhaps they need to find another line of work.

If you're waiting on Congress to get up off their nuts and do something, then you clearly haven't been paying attention. They're the most worthless group of poltroons to grace those hallowed halls in some time.

[Adelante]

12. You mean the way Bush leaned on his AG?

No thanks.

[frylock]

13. no..

not at all like the way boosh did. you lean on the AG to UPHOLD the law, not look for loopholes and ways to circumvent the law. yes, thanks.

[Adelante]

14. Obama should leave it to Holder

There should be no political interference.

[frylock]

23. then holder should get his shit in gear

[Adelante]

25. His shit's not in gear?

I think it's very much in gear. You just can't have every fucking thing you want TODAY.

[frylock]

28. i don't want everything TODAY..

what I want and what I VOTED for was a fucking CHANGE of direction. Is that too much to HOPE for?! All I see thus far is business as usual. By my count, the campaign season starts up in 1.7 months. That doesn't leave a lot of time to wait and see. Save your pony and poutrage smack for someone else.

[Adelante]

30. If you don't see a fucking CHANGE of direction

You are willfully blind. I've had enough of self-indulgent whining. I'm done here :hi:

[frylock]

31. hmmmmnn.. cannibis clubs still being raided in cali..

no indication of pursuing war crimes against cheneyco, escalation in afghanistan, gays still under the bus. guess we just see things through different colored glasses. peace out.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shagsak]

76. Ed Zachary

[ginnyinWI]

15. Obama's job was to pick a good A/G

So far it looks like he did.

[MannyGoldstein]

17. On What Basis Do You Say That He's Good? n/t

[frylock]

22. based on what?

please elaborate.

[bjobotts]

53. Wrong.It's NOT his job to "lean" on the AG.That is illegal.The AG is apolitical

[bjobotts]

54. It's up to Holder and Holder alone to enforce the laws and decide if they were broken.

[bjobotts]

55. The AG is only appointed by Obama and that is as far as the relationship goes.

[bjobotts]

56. The AG workks for the people and is responsible to them alone.

[Adelante]

11. Agree nt

[ejbr]

40. yet according to his chief of staff

he doesn't believe the authors of torture should be prosecuted. Why should we ignore his influential opinion on the matter, yet lambaste everyone else who okays torture???

:wtf:

[zeemike]

6. It is not that you are a basher but just not patient.

And as pointed out above it is not his job to prosecute anyone.
The Justice department is separate from the executive branch of government for a reason.
And you must remember that the DOJ is still full of Bush people that he put there over the last eight years.

[D23MIURG23]

7. His policy so far has been "we are looking forward, not back"...

and that the CIA interrogators won't be prosecuted for torture.

It isn't directly his job to prosecute anyone, but it is the job of his AG to follow his policy. If he recommended that Holder appoint a special prosecutor to investigate this situation, and refrained from immunizing anyone involved with torture, I probably wouldn't be making this post.

My feeling is that Obama has been actively discouraging legal accountability for Bush administration war crimes, which is why I'm laying this at his feet.

[Orsino]

10. He's at least passively discouraging prosecution.

We can hope that this is merely a show of reluctance to "get" the previous Administration, and that in private he is encouraging Holder to move "forward" with investigation/prosecution.

[zeemike]

21. you are naivete if you think in three months anyone can change

the coarse of a government as large as the one we have.
And if you try you will find yourself in a huge mess that you probably will never be able to recover from.
those are just the realties of the situation.

[frylock]

24. a change of direction isn't asking too much..

so far it looks like business as usual.

[D23MIURG23]

27. I'm looking for a signal that this issue is going to be taken seriously...

rather than swept under the rug, and I'm looking for real action to follow. I'm not expecting it to be a done deal yet, and I do think it was a good step that he released the memos in the first place.

I'm not sure why you would consider that naive, and you haven't cited any concrete reason why it would be too much to expect.

[zeemike]

33. Well just think about this for a moment

And ask yourself this;
How many people are in the DOJ and how many were put there by bush?
How many were involved in the CIA and the military that are still there?
How many in the State department and the congress were involved in some way?
It is not unreasonable to think that at least half of the government is tainted by this in some way.
Now imagine if you will that you are the chief executive of a government that is half against you, and you want to put them all in jail.
As I have said before the art of politics is doing what is possable...at least according to Ben Franklin.
Obama does not have the power to do it. But we do and that is through pressure applied at strategic points and not getting all caught up in trying to make Obama responsible for it.
If we do try to make Obama responsible for it the rethugs will tear him apart and we will have lost the battle and they will win the war.
that is the reality and we must act smartly not with emotional lashing out which will only give the right wing fuel for the fire.

[D23MIURG23]

66. Not every level of involvement needs to be treated in the same way.

It would be perfectly legitimate to give anonymity and immunity to lower-downs in exchange for cooperation. By your logic the fired US attorney scandal and the Plame scandal should have similarly broken government and neither did. And there was a special prosecutor in the Plame affair.

I know this isn't an easy situation for the Obama administration, but there is no smart way to allow a precedent for this kind of illegality.

[defendandprotect]

83. Karpinski was on Olbermann tonight and she mentioned that she's spoken

individually with a number of those convicted -- and that one of them had protested

to the chain of command about what these people were doing --

They told him to go back and do what he was directed to do and the next day he asked

to be assigned elsewhere . . . which they did! But somehow he was prosecuted anyway?

[bdamomma]

16. we all know these crimes need to be investigated period.

[mmonk]

18. The phrase "Obama basher" is a disingenuous one and a straw

dog they use. I'm tired of it too but names cause no wounds other than being an attack on one's character without proof. Don't worry about it. That being said, here I am to join your call.

[D23MIURG23]

69. Ive seen it used verbatim at least once on the front page in the last 48 hours.

I've also seen a lot of criticism leveled at people who aren't happy with what the Obama admin has or hasn't done on the economy and on war crimes.

It really wasn't my intent to mischaracterize the sentiment of some of the posts I've seen lately and I'm not sure I did.

[derby378]

19. Damn straight - I want Obama to succeed as POTUS

But in order for him to do that, we must have torture investigations. We need Bybee, Yoo, etc. to sweat it out on the witness stand. We need them to see what happens when you mess around with the Constitution.

[annabanana]

20. This would be me. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive..

It is up to Congress to take the lead, and up to the Atty General to investigate, and up to the President to not interfere.

[Adelante]

26. Precisely nt

[arthritisR_US]

29. ditto! n/t

[D23MIURG23]

32. kick

[Usrename]

34. AFAICT he's the only hope we got.

I doubt that the fascist bastards we are up against will ever police themselves. They don't know why they should even consider it.

All the fascist bastards should rot it jail, though. The CIA are civilians, they were never under any orders to do anything. They could have all just refused, like many did, to participate.

[Stinky The Clown]

35. I cop to not having read the OP thoroughly

I cop to an inappropriate post.

Mea culpa.

I ranted against the OP and I was wrong.

And no, I did not get a PM. I reread it and fixed it on my own.

[mirrera]

36. k&r

[Tommy_J]

37. I'm in...

I support Obama and trust that he will prosecute when the time is right

[JDPriestly]

38. I worked for Obama, but I'm very disappointed about his

failure to take stronger stands on torture and the wiretapping violations.

I really am on the fence at this time.

I like the way Obama is changing the face and stature of the U.S. with regard to foreign affairs. I suspect that he will face a huge challenge, possibly from one of the countries with whom he is interacting cordially within his first year in office. How he handles that crisis will determine the success of his presidency in that regard.

I am really impressed by his dedication to energy independence and his steadfastness thus far in working toward encouraging the development of alternative energy.

I have mixed feelings about his handling of the economy. The stimulus is a good idea. The bank bail-outs to the extent he helped usher them in are a disaster. We are pouring money into a bottomless pit, and it is just being swallowed by an infinitely thirsty monster. Obama needs to hire new economic advisers. The ones he has are not talking straight to him and are not on the side of ordinary Americans.

With regard to human rights issues, Obama gets an F double-minus.

Obama is correct to focus on moving forward on the economy, the environment and foreign policy without looking back and casting blame. He is naive to expect his political opponents to give him any credit for doing so. They will tear him down at every turn. That's politics.

Obama is a fool to think he can move forward on the issues of torture and the illegal wiretapping without prosecuting the crimes that took place in these areas. Foreign policy, the environment and the economy (examples, not a full listing) are policy issues. Obama and the us Democrats and environmentalists versus conservatives have differences on policy in these areas. We move forward. We respect the democratic process. If Republicans are again elected to a majority in Congress and take the White House in the future, they get to have their say on these issues.

But with regard to allegations that crimes took place in the past -- criminal investigations and prosecutions are required. That is not a partisan issue.

Any president who commits a serious crime should be prosecuted after leaving office. Same as anyone else. Torture is a serious crime. Violating FISA is a serious crime. This is not a matter of moving forward.

If Obama does not show strength in this regard, he will face ever more nonsensical threats from the extreme right-wing. You already see how this is affecting Fox News reports. It's a matter of ratings for them. It's a matter of profiling themselves so as to get votes for the extreme right-wing politicians.

I cannot support Obama if he cannot take on the mantle of the presidency and do his duty to support investigations and prosecutions of serious crimes regardless of who does them. (It is ultimately Holder's call, not Obamas.) It may be that extremely lenient sentences would be appropriate, but that should be decided only after investigations and prosecutions.

So, I still support Obama with regard to some things, but I am on the fence about others. He has to show strength and be consistent. Otherwise he will not be respected and he will not be successful and he will harm the Democratic Party.

Obama knows how to show strength and consistency with his children. He has to do that as president.

[marauding liberal]

39. My email to Obama

President Obama,

This is a dark and shameful time in our country, made worse by our collective failure to hold ourselves accountable for war crimes that were clearly committed during the last administration.

When I read that you had assured CIA operatives that there would be no accountability for acts of torture, I was shocked beyond belief. "I was only following orders" was considered a cowardly and disingenuous excuse employed by Nazis criminals during the Nuremburg war trials.

I voted for you believing that you were a man of integrity. I had high hopes that you would initiate meaningful changes in our country. Today I am ashamed and embarrassed by the way you are handling what should be a clear cut moral issue. Torture is NEVER acceptable, even if a lawyer tells you it is. Non-negotiable.

Sincerely,

[Political Tiger]

41. It's NOT up to Obama. He's NOT the Chief of Police.

That's why we have a Justice Department. And while this was not done during the Bush years, they are supposed to consider matters of investigations and prosecutions INDEPENDENTLY from the office of the President.

To lay it all at Obama's feet and pretend it's all up to him is not how it works.

[Bluenorthwest]

72. Gee, then Rahm should not have laid it all at the President's feet

and he should not have spoken as if the choice was Obama's alone, and that it had already been made. The Cheif of Staff speaks for the President unless the President says differenly. It was Obama's own office that said he had already made a decision that you rightly say is not his alone to make.
Obama's statement yesterday was an improvement, but I am still not happy being told that 'we' lost our morals when it was specific individuals who broke specific laws. Not us. Them. Obama can stop telling us that we are the same as Yoo and Gonzo, and he can do that now. He might be the same as them, but not all Americans are. Their actions are their own, not mine.

[Ken Burch]

42. I'm glad President Obama is in the White House...and I hope he does what's right on this

There's no conflict at all between those two thoughts.

Besides, who knows if anything will get done if it doesn't happen in the first two years?

[defendandprotect]

43. Something wrong if we don't care about TORTURE and wiretapping . . .

these are crimes against our own nation and Americans ---

and if unaddressed heaven knows where it might lead the next time, if

we're unlucky enough for there to be one!

It's treason just as wiretapping was when Nixon did it -- and, btw, as I recall,

he was even wiretapping Kissinger, maybe even his bedroom!


It's mind-boggling enough to try to figure out how the damage we've done to Iraq

over 20 years of bombing them will ever be repaired --

And these poor prisoners survived against this ferocious brutality to hear that

no one would be prosecuted--?? That would be earth-shatteringly wrong!

[puebloknot]

46. If Obama thinks he is taking the high road, *and* taking the country with him ...

... by moving forward, and ignoring crimes against the Constitution of the United States of America, then Obama is delusional, and should be put under proper care immediately.

Okay, it's not his call. It's the call of the Justice Department to investigate and prosecute. But Obama and his AG are joined at the hip, and Obama should at the very least stop giving his considerable influence to looking the other way while criminals walk.

He won't have my vote next time, NO MATTER WHAT, if he doesn't show some spine.

[defendandprotect]

47. Agree . . .

All crimes are prosecuted and investigated as something "in the past" --
something that has already happened --

What other crimes shall we ignore so we can go forward?

We need to keep demanding a special prosecutor --- any suggestions on who?

We need leverage over Democrats --- if some of the liberal organizations would get

together and threaten to withhold money -- and/or if citizens got together to

"bundle" their funds . . . we might start getting somewhere in having some control again.

obama certainly knew that he needed people like us to win ---

and soon he'll be thinking about that again!

[puebloknot]

78. "Any suggestions on who?"

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" kind of narrows the field.

Winston Churchill is about the last man I can think of with the degree of integrity needed to clean up this mess.

My fear is that a special prosecutor will hold hearings, fingers will point and wag, time will go by, and no one will be prosecuted. Another coverup, as I think the 9/11 Commission was. Maybe not. Hope not.

"Bundling funds" and attendant undertones has promise. Maybe the only promise, the only power we actually have.

[bjobotts]

57. The point is it has nothing to do with politics or Obama's plans

[bjobotts]

58. It is the law and the law alone.If it was broken then Holder must prosecute.It's not a 'choice'

[puebloknot]

77. I totally agree. That said, why is there even any discussion of Obama's ...

... wanting to move ahead, and why is his press secretary announcing there will be no prosecutions.

Obama, et al. need to take a referesher in "the law alone."

[defendandprotect]

44. Any suggestions for a Special Prosecutor . . .

NOT Fitzgerald . . .

Where's Walsh?

Taguba? Was that the name of the miiitary guy who investigated this and

was pushed out when he obviously was trying to hold higher ups responsible?

Actually, I think the Special Prosecutor legislation was let expire?

[puebloknot]

79. Help me think.

A guy who was in the military, lost his own son in Iraq, recently appeared on the Bill Moyers show, has written a book about Bushco and its failures (I think that's what it's about). Now, with all those clues, who is the guy?

He seemed to have integrity when I heard him.

[defendandprotect]

82. Can't help you . . . but someone must have a list of ethical candidate . . . ???

[puebloknot]

84. I'll figure it out and post. Bill Moyers' site has it, I'm sure.

Yes, let's hope there's still one righteous man in Babylon, so to speak.

[defendandprotect]

85. That should have been plural . .. "candidates" . . . and remember when ABA was involved

in recommending candidates for the Supreme Court?

Clarence Thomas was such a poor choice that they wouldn't find him "qualified" and

Poppy ended the ABA involvement!!! Outrageous!!!

Here we are with a pervert on the Supreme Court!!!

[Skittles]

45. HERE HERE HERE

[Left Coast2020]

48. From these recent news events I get the feeling A.G. and administration know

we are pissed about this and want something done. Think of the rage if they publically come out and say "no special prosecutor". Remember when Holder was confirmed and he publically said "I hear you". Lets see if he really means it.

[Skittles]

60. yup, they are reacting to pressure

it certainly is no "game plan"

[Optical.Catalyst]

61. K&R

[Optical.Catalyst]

62. Bush and his crew must be punished for their crimes. Our International prestige is on the line here

We have committed crimes in the International Community, and if we do not clean our own house we will have no respect abroad.

Bush started an illegal war and proceeded to capture and torture citizens of foreign countries. Until we punish those responsible for these crimes, we will be looked upon with distrust by other countries.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

63. Me too

I donated to Obama's campaign when I was unemployed and didn't have the spare money to give anyway, I supported Obama for his state senator bid and donated to that campaign (I live in Illinois). But when I question some of his actions, including him saying that we should be "looking forward", I get flamed by Obama syncophants who don't want to question anything he does because he is Obama and has a cute family and a cute dog and a nice smile and happens to be a Democratic president. I am fucking sick of it. If you can't bring yourself to at least question and wonder if some of Obama's policies are in the best interest of us and what we voted for, then frankly you are just like the Bush worshippers that always supported him no matter what he did.

[RedCloud]

64. Do not let EVIL triumph. 8 years is Hell on Earth enough of it.

The cowardly thing is to do nothing. We let Vietnam mass murderers walk. Left wing protests FBI saboteurs off the hook while they almost never go after the right wing. The Wing nuts have invaded the FBI, the CIA and Homeland Security, the MSM and they have what consequences to pay? Raping our economy? Stealing our retirement pay or social security to pay for their wars of imperialism? By torturing they aid the enemy in their determination against us.

They pretend to be so all mighty and all religious. It is time to give the devil his due. Time for the comeuppance.

[AlexDeLarge]

67. I also support Obama but have trouble with some of the positions he's taken.

But, he does seem to reflect upon his answers and has the capacity to alter course in response to logical arguments that counter his first impression on a topic. I think he's realized that it is not his responsibility to decide whether there should or should not be an investigation into the legal consequences/ramifications of the torture memorandums. He can, of course express his opinion. And I think that may be changing as well.

[barbtries]

68. i support obama

that doesn't mean he walks on water. i'll still do my part to keep him on his toes and promote the policies that i think are best.

but yes...i'm still experiencing occasional flashes of euphoria that he's president.

[puebloknot]

80. He's "better than Bush." But we can do better than that, and should. nt

[elocs]

70. I personally do not like "Rec this" OPs. Recs should be given and gained on merit.

If an OP deserves Recs it will get them. If they need to be requested, in my opinion, it seems kind of lame. If this thread had been titled "I support Obama...AND consider legal action on torture imperative" it might have gotten just as many Recs but I think it would have been classier. Again, just my opinion.

[D23MIURG23]

71. Never make the mistake of conflating popular support with merit.

;-)

[meowomon]

74. We are not like rethuglicans who walk in lock step with their PotUS no matter what.

We are individualists who decide what is right and wrong. I was for Obama since day oneI just don't support all of his decisions. Obama is not perfect. He is a man and let us not forget, he is a politician.

[onehandle]

75. Prosecute the ones who gave the orders to torture and impeach judges that supported them. nt

[puebloknot]

81. A la Nuremberg. But judges that supported "them" then were hanged, not impeached.

Impeachment may have to do.