That's so gay

[Cruzan]

Being called a “fag,” you see, actually has almost nothing to do with being gay.

It’s really about showing any perceived weakness or femininity – by being emotional, seeming incompetent, caring too much about clothing, liking to dance or even having an interest in literature. It’s similar to what being viewed as a “nerd” is, Bennington College psychology professor David Anderegg notes in his 2007 book, “Nerds: Who They Are and Why We Need More of Them”: “‘queer’ in the sense of being ‘odd’ or ‘unusual,’” but also, for middle schoolers in particular, doing “anything that was too much like what a goody-goody would do.”

It’s what being called a “girl” used to be, a generation or two ago.

“To call someone gay or fag is like the lowest thing you can call someone. Because that’s like saying that you’re nothing,” is how one teenage boy put it to C.J. Pascoe, a sociologist at Colorado College, in an interview for her 2007 book, “Dude, You’re a Fag: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School.”

The message to the most vulnerable, to the victims of today’s poisonous boy culture, is being heard loud and clear: to be something other than the narrowest, stupidest sort of guy’s guy, is to be unworthy of even being alive.

It’s weird, isn’t it, that in an age in which the definition of acceptable girlhood has expanded, so that desirable femininity now encompasses school success and athleticism, the bounds of boyhood have remained so tightly constrained? And so staunchly defended: Boys avail themselves most frequently of epithets like “fag” to “police” one another’s behavior and bring it back to being sufficiently masculine when someone steps out of line, Barbara J. Risman, a sociologist at the University of Illinois at Chicago, found while conducting extensive interviews in a southeastern urban middle school in 2003 and 2004. “Boys were showing each other they were tough. They were afraid to do anything that might be called girlie,” she told me this week. “It was just like what I would have found if I had done this research 50 years ago. They were frozen in time.”

Full article

[redqueen]

1. "today’s poisonous boy culture"

Intersting way to put it.

One of my biggest pet peeves is how horribly constrained males are as compared to females. But it's defended even here. Wouldn't want your son teased for being who he is... so better force him to fit that mold, right?

[MADem]

4. I think it's interesting how the boys, poisonous or otherwise, are going nuts jumping through hoops.

They're spraying themselves with perfume (they give the stuff manly names, like AX, but it's PERFUME), they're doing crunches frantically to get a "six pack," they put "product" in their hair and sculpt it this way and that, they wax their little chests, they "man tan"--in short, they spend more time in the bathroom primping than the girls do!

And why? Because the girls will give them the hand if they don't. Can't have that!

Back in the old days, all a lad had to do was wear a leather jacket, slouch, sneer and look either dangerous or slightly clinically depressed. That's all it took to get the Oooooohs and Ahhhhhhhs!

It ain't easy being a kid nowadays!

[redqueen]

9. It was never easy being a female adolescent.

So yeah... welcome to the club.

[MADem]

12. It's not easy being a kid at all....but I find the leveling of the playing field in this regard a

bit interesting, certainly...

[redqueen]

14. Yes, it's not a good trend is it?

Instead of treating superficiality as something relatively meaningless, it's been pushed even higher on the priority list. Bah.

[MADem]

17. I never thought I'd be glad I was old!

I sure couldn't keep up in the superficial, hyper-sexualized environment. I wouldn't especially want to. You have to feel sorry for the poor little farts--they're not really allowed to be kids for very long.

[redqueen]

19. True in some ways... but not in others...

as for 'partying' (I really hate that word when used as a verb), e.g. drinking, sex, drugs, etc... sure, childhood is cut very short in a lot of places.

But when it comes to thoughtfulness, self-awareness, emotional maturity, consideration, responsibility... those things aren't 'cool' and it seems many people may grow up chronologically, but don't bother ever reaching adulthood.

[whathehell]

8. Females are constrained too, just in different ways...Boys, for example,

are allowed to show anger (THAT wouldn't be "gay")..When a female gets angry, she's a "bitch", however justified her anger might be.

Beyond that, of course, is the obvious: Being like "a girl"..is so low..Like the kid said, it's like being "nothing"...and there are all sorts of female based gender slurs -lots of them used here - to reinforce the idea.

[redqueen]

10. Yes... a girl could be ridiculed for being too masculine...

however comparing the ridicule a boy gets for being too feminine... there really is no comparison. At least that's how it seems to me.

Also consider the parent angle... how many parents would forbid their daughter to play with masculine toys vs. their sons with feminine toys? It seems to me the scales are not balanced there either.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

26. I did an experiment for class where I asked a bunch of women if they considered themselves somewhat

masculine as children and a bunch of men if they considered themselves somewhat feminine as children. The women often proudly wore their "tomboy" ness on their sleeve and talked fondly of it. Not one man did likewise. In fact, I was shocked how many men looked horrified and how most of them quickly said NO! NO! as though Id asked them if they ever murdered someone.

[redqueen]

31. How can the message be anything but...

masculine = good... feminine = not so good?

We have to stop doing this to boys.

[whathehell]

38. Um..Yeah...and to girls!...

How do you think this makes women and girls feel?!

[redqueen]

39. Being a woman...

and having formerly been a girl... I have some idea. :P

[whathehell]

42. I'm surprised...You're sympathy seems to be all about the males.

[redqueen]

43. Context. (nt)

[whathehell]

45. The context was open...Someone stated how much "more constrained"

boys were than girls...I gave an example showing that to be arguable.

[redqueen]

46. That was me... I said boys are more constrained.

And I meant the context of the thread... with respect to the OP... which is not about calling girls names.

[whathehell]

48. You responded to that...But there's nothing wrong with broadening the subject.

and its certainly "related".

[redqueen]

50. Well there were those who reacted poorly

to men who showed up on threads about Rhianna's domestic abuse situation to talk about the way that women also abuse men in domestic violence situations. So I'm only trying to be considerate and stay on topic.

[whathehell]

37. Of course...That's because masculinity is considered to superior to "femininity"

If a man acts "feminine" he's considered to be "demeaning" himself, whereas if a woman acts inappropriately for her gender..She still gets points for aiming "higher".

It speaks directly to the notion that women and everything about them is "inferior".

[JerseygirlCT]

71. Sad, isn't it?

A lot of the qualities expressed by boys thought not to be masculine enough as kids are just the ones we ought to encourage. Mine played with baby dolls (why not? I wanted them to learn to be nurturing. And don't fathers need to know how to care for kids, too?). One, when he was quite small, proudly told everyone that his favorite color was pink. (It's his mom's!). They're not fighters, they're lovers. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

Likewise, they've never, ever been taught that something is "women's work" or only for girls. Or that there is anything one of their female friends cannot do because she's a girl. (Ok, harder to pee standing up, but you get the point).

[whathehell]

41. Well, again, this just underscores what should be obvious,

and that is the superior status that accrues just for BEING male!..What do you think feminists have been saying all these years?

[Bluebear]

11. Also. Boys are high-fived for expressing their sexuality. Girls? "Sluts".

[redqueen]

15. That's kind of getting offtopic.

This thread isn't about double standards, but rather about the way girls enjoy more freedom now but boys are still stuck where they've been for decades.

Also... being a 'slut' doesn't seem to be considered such a bad thing anymore.

[dem629]

16. And males are called "playas", just a different word for the same thing.

So it's irrelevant on that level as well.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

28. I have never heard "playa" as a bad thing. Likewise I have never heard "slut" described as a good

thing.

[Chulanowa]

29. "Playa" is the male version of "freak"

ANd htey are just slanged-up ways of saying "sleaze" and "slut" respectively

[NeedleCast]

60. It's really not

[dem629]

35. People never warn others that some guy is a "playa"?

Well, okay....

[keroro gunsou]

49. i never understood

why boys want to be called the spanish word for beach/sand...

that's the first thing i thought of when i saw that term first used...

[whathehell]

47. "being a 'slut' doesn't seem to be considered such a bad thing anymore"?

Where do you get that?...It's as bad as it's ever been, from what I can see.

[redqueen]

51. From the fact that so many women consider the term to be BS.

And as such, they aren't offended by it... they enjoy their sexuality and are proud of it.

But... again... this is way offtopic.

[whathehell]

56. I'm sorry

If this is "offtopic" but since you made the assertion, I'm afraid I have to respond -- The word "slut" -- along with "bitch" "douchebag" "whore" and all the other female slurs (which have few, if any male equivalents, btw) is STILL a potent insult where I live -- especially among teens and pre-teens. It's ugly, It's oppressive, and it hurts their self-esteem.

To tell you the truth, though, I see no point in continuing this discussion, as you don't strike me as someone who's particularly sensitive to female gender bashing and so there's really no point in arguing it here, particurlarly since it's "offtopic"..as you.. keep..telling me...I guess we have different priorities.

:hi:

[redqueen]

58. I don't think you're sorry at all.

I think you consider it A-OK to come into a thread about how boys are abused by being called "gay" and make it about women and girls and their problems.

As for your impression of what I am or am not particularly sensitive to... whatever.

[whathehell]

59. Yeah....same to you regarding your impression of whether I'm "sorry" or not.

[redqueen]

63. Why'd you put "sorry" in quotes?

[whathehell]

44. You are absolutely right.....The double standard.

Still alive and well, unfortunately.

[JerseygirlCT]

70. I agree with this, too.

I think we need to work very hard to raise our kids (and I mean that in a general sense - this new generation) not to accept those constraints.

[backtoblue]

18. right

It's annoying in the least that male put-downs seem to always be directed toward femininity. Like it's soooo terrible to be like a woman...

[Chulanowa]

20. It has nothing to do with being a woman, so much as NOT being a man

It's not a very logical standard, but that's how it works.

[redqueen]

24. What else is there?

If one isn't acting "manly"... what's the altnernative?

[Chulanowa]

25. Didn't I say it wasn't very logical?

Most of the people who insult men by attributing them with feminine traits don't have an actual issue with women themselves. it's the idea of a man acting like a woman that they go on about.

"Less than a man" doesn't equate "woman" in this way of thinking, any more than "less than a woman" equates "man" when applied the other way.

[redqueen]

30. It seems like a distinction without a difference to me. (nt)

[Chulanowa]

55. You know there's a third option, yes?

Male, female, neuter.

It was brought home a few times when my dad would get blasted and designate my older brother as an "it" rather than a "he"

[anigbrowl]

68. Being a eunuch.

Or on a more prosaic level, being pre-pubescent, and not exhibiting or adapting to the changes brought by puberty, many of which come anxieties of various kinds.


I'm afraid I don't think much of this article or the research quoted within. It's not that men can't learn from women, but nor do I think men need women to explain men to themselves, any more than women need men to do the same thing. Male culture is fundamentally different from female culture, whether hetero- or homosexual, and attempting to interpret it by taking statements at face value or out of context are not really illuminating. I feel the same way about this as I would some male critique of female high-schoolers as being obsessed with superficialities like glitter, drawing hearts on everything, and boy bands.

There are some great examinations of gender differences out there - my favorite author on this subject is Deborah Tannen, a linguist by profession.

[redqueen]

21. That's what bothers me so much about it.

We tell our daughters that it's well and good to be masculine if they like... but for boys to be feminine? For some reason, that's different.

And like I said, I've seen it defended here.

[NashVegas]

64. Go Onto the IMDB Message Boards Sometime

Look at the the message board posts/threads surrounding movies that have young female or gay appeal and compare the hostility directed against those movies, and then compare them to the tone of threads and posts you'd see for action movies or a Seth Rosen flick.

This isn't about constraining males (or denying they are constrained) it's about how young males attempt to stomp out peer cultures that don't reflect their idea of masculinity.

This is something that has been going on ever since the Disco Demolition of the late 1970s and it works two-fold. On one side, you have males who see a cultural conversation, involving arts and entertainments that don't particularly appeal to them, and they go trash the conversation because it's something they aren't a part of and aren't leading its direction (whether or not they do so knowingly is not the point); on the other are commercial elements who egg them on ("fuck 'Twilight', come see 'The Fast & the Furious'").

[JerseygirlCT]

69. I don't want my kids teased for what they are - but I don't want them

being anything but what they are, which is wonderful.

They're not great athletes, they're both sensitive and thoughtful. They're both artists and musicians. And both liked very well. I hope in part because they've never been encouraged to act like someone's idea of what a boy should be.

I call other kids out on this when I hear it, as well. And challenge their thinking. I hope that helps, somewhere along the line.

I think I will have raised two men who grow into excellent people, and wonderful fathers should they be so blessed. But then again, they have a father who doesn't always fit the mold, and I like it just fine.

I think we still place far too much weight on gender roles. It makes people comfortable, I guess to know just which way they're "supposed" to act.

[dem629]

2. Why is sociologist Barbara J. Risman shocked that

middle school male behavior is "frozen in time"? And what moron paid her to research that? Good grief.

If someone funds the research with checks payable to me, personally, I'll issue a report entitled: "Middle-school Boys in the 21st Century - They're Still Making Fart Noises With Their Armpits and Probably Spitting on the Sidewalk, Too."

[Bluebear]

3. That's all you took from that?

[dem629]

5. I wasn't looking to take anything from it.

[tkmorris]

6. That would explain it

[dem629]

7. Indeed it does.

[dsc]

13. I know as an adult it wasn't necessarily that they knew I was gay

heck I wasn't even totally sure myself, but at the time I felt they could see my soul and just couldn't figure how they did it. I even felt I deserved what I was getting at some level.

[Echo In Light]

22. Misogyny is the cornerstone of homophobia

[Taverner]

23. Or...homophobia is the cornerstone of misogyny

not sure which...

[Chulanowa]

27. Echo has it right

Homophobia is a specialized form of misogyny. The homophobe may not actually hate women (though it seems a very large number do, obviously) but they feel threatened by femininity of any sort. Even female homophobes tend to be very derisive of other women - Ann Coulter for example.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nomorenomore08]

32. It's the psychological need to defend some "masculine" ideal, combined with a fear of ambiguity.

All this is based on a very dualistic way of thinking - either you're one thing or you're another. And any time these binaries start to blur, many people feel as if the very structure of reality is collapsing around them. Hence the right wing's panicked defense of "traditional" marriage and gender roles - I don't doubt that the fear they feel is very genuine indeed.

[Taverner]

40. Oh they are afraid

But their discomfort is not more important than the grey spectrum that is ethics.

IN short, as future Gov Newsom said "They better get used to it!"

[LostinVA]

34. It does have everything to do with being gay, too

Being misogynist and homophobia are intrinsically linked, and always have.

[ismnotwasm]

36. It's still homophobia/hate

It's still sexism. It's still destructive bullshit. Women have feminism even if most don't claim the title. It's like being in an open shop workplace. You can take the benefits without being a member, as it were. "I'm not a feminist, but" Yeah yeah. We know.

Males have patriarchy. Which is fucked up, but that's what they have. The social system we live and breed under. In this case it's like they have membership with the all the perks of entitlement without knowing the exact nature is of the club they belong to. Of course they are encouraged by that same system not to know, or not to care if they do, definitely not to challenge it. Most don't care about it one way or they other preferring to polarize sexuality and gender. Not a good situation, no.

Never has been a good situation for women.

"Gay" as insult is going way beyond the male/female dynamic. It's used casually by both genders to describe something considered inherently less than, weak or plain bad.

[deaniac21]

52. I'm a gay fish.

[Mopar151]

53. I guess that's why I've always hung out with the odd ducks

You sure learn a lot - it's just that it takes a while (a couple decades, in my case) to stop missing clues.
A simple one - nobody likes prissy. It's a big part of what the littl s$%# don't like about the people they call "gay", and a part of what real gay people don't like about them either. IMHO, it's when the feminine side we all have to a degree meets neurotic tendencies, and gets all twisted up with poor role models and fear.
I've met some wonderful GBLT folks over the years - love 'em like family - but prissy guys make me queasy, and prissy girls make me want to be somewhere else.

If the teen queen cheerleader girls knew how hot some guys think butch girls are, they'd be getting flattop haircuts and hittin' the weights NOW. For that matter, for most of us no matter the label: Smart, fit, comfortable in your own skin and a good heart beat the crap out of teased hair and spray-on makeup.

[distantearlywarning]

57. Prissy vs. Butch

The big secret is that teen cheerleader queens don't act/dress that way for guys. They act/dress that way for other girls. That's who is enforcing the behavior/dress code.

[davsand]

62. A lot of women dress to impress other women. Men, not so much.

You talk about teen cheerleaders enforcing a dress and behavior code (which I hear about EVERY day from my middle school aged daughter!) but I see adult women do that every day too. Men, on the other hand, are often times a whole lot less worried about what other men are gonna think about what they wear, and I think they are less inclined to attribute social status to dress than women are.

I realize I'm generalizing here, but the stereotype of the wife "dressing" her husband became a stereotype for a reason. At that point, it is about how the wife thinks her husband's (and thus her own) status will be estimated.


Laura

[Mopar151]

66. Absolutey!

I used to work with an HR manager who was trying to live that all the way to the grave.

And you know who wierds out the worst about strong girls? Jocks!! The '00 Olympic hockey ladies are local to me, and when they came through on the victory tour - who got all wigged out and conflicted about even meeting these ladies, but the league hockey guys.

[ldf]

54. this so-called psychology professor hasn't a clue.

he would learn far more by listening to the tone that is used when "fag" is used as an insult.

it is NOT the equivalent of being called a "nerd".

he is doing nothing but minimizing the damage that is done.

[NashVegas]

65. How Much Did You Read?

The message to the most vulnerable, to the victims of today’s poisonous boy culture, is being heard loud and clear: to be something other than the narrowest, stupidest sort of guy’s guy, is to be unworthy of even being alive.

[carlyhippy]

61. That stuff starts at home

The boys in my small hometown all play hockey, if they want to be accepted by the other boys. The parents seem to turn their heads when they get rowdy and mean, but that's ok, in their eyes that makes them a better hockey player.

Whatever happened to pride in academics? It's gay to be a geek or nerd? I have kids, so I am aware of the "that's so gay" line. I just tell the kids and their friends (and yes, my kids and their friends are not jocks, they are academic stars), that when they themselves are making a good living because they worked hard in school and worked hard and did well in college (they are all quite ambitious) they can come back and see how well the "that's so gay" crowd did in their lives.

[Mopar151]

67. When I grow up, I want to be - Ryan Newman

Good for today( BSME Purdue, excellent qualifier,good guy!) other role models available... Danica Patrick, Lewis Hamilton, Mark Martin (last night's winner at Phoenix at 52 yrs old) for short kids with a Richie Rich tag,John Force for poor kids with polio, Junior for representin' against impossible expectations and staying true to his own - like his uncle and cousin TE Sr & Jr.,My hero Richie Evans, and iconoclasts like Wendell Scott, Smokey Yunick, and Harry Hyde.

And it's a funny thing, and i've seen it happen with my dad's roughneck, flathead-racin' friends and the computered up kids coming along now - they find out that doing something heroic is cool, but to do it in a noble way is a lot sweeter, and it will get you' to like bein' noble and gracious.

Jock culture compromised my education and made parts of my childhood fairly miserable. But I found out a little later that the same jocks who bullied me were quiverin' scared of guys who Dad or I talked cars and engines with like they were anyone else.