The Taliban scares me in a pretty primal way

[cali]

They truly represent fundamentalism run amok. Oh, and as for the parents of these two kids, I hope they suffer every minute of every day for the rest of their lives. And I hope they have long lives.

Afghan Taliban Kill Young Woman, Man for Eloping
Teen woman, man who tried to elope killed by Afghan Taliban firing squad in front of crowd
By AMIR SHAH and RAHIM FAIEZ Associated Press Writers
KABUL April 14, 2009 (AP) The Associated Press

Taliban gunmen executed a young couple in southern Afghanistan for trying to elope, shooting them with rifles in front of a crowd in a lawless, militant-controlled region, officials said Tuesday.

Taliban gunmen used a firing squad to kill a young couple in southern Afghanistan for trying to elope, shooting them with rifles in front of a crowd in a lawless, militant-controlled region, officials said Tuesday.

The woman, Gul Pecha, 19, and the man, Abdul Aziz, 21, were accused by the militants of immoral acts, and a council of conservative clerics decided that the two should be killed, officials said.

The two had fled their homes and hoped to travel to Iran, but their parents sent villagers to bring them home, said Sadiq Chakhansori, the chief of Nimroz' provincial council. Once back home, the pair was either turned over to the Taliban by their parents or the militants came and took them by force, the officials said, providing slightly varying accounts.

Riflemen in the remote district of Khash Rod in the southwestern province of Nimroz shot the man and woman with AK-47s Monday, said Chakhansori.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=7330300

[anonymous171]

1. I'm always afraid that the Fundies here will realize how much they have in common with

the Islamic fundies over there.

[cali]

4. Ironic that fundies of any persuasion have so much in common.

I feel fortunate not live in apart of the world where my life is ruled by them.

[NeedleCast]

6. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that happen in the future

Fundies are fundies and it seems to me that their ideas are very rarely based on their religion.

[Chulanowa]

11. Won't happen

That's the saving grace of fundamentalism - All fundamentalist movements insist not just that their way is the right way, but that it is the only way, period. Options A, B, and C are heresies and apostacy that must be destroyed, eradicated, and burned.

Fundies may occasionally brush against each other, but htey will never actually clasp hands and make any concerted effort.

[anonymous171]

18. That's what I keep telling myself.

But still the fear remains. :scared:

[Iris]

15. According to Michelle Goldberg, they already do. She asserts that they can overlook their hatred

of Islam in one area - and that's women's rights. They are willing to overlook the problems they have with Islam because they realize they can be allies on the international level in restricting the rights of women.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103022290

It's a long interview, and a bit chilling, but eye-opening.

[Still Sensible]

17. And I am saddened that they don't see it...

Because, like all fundamentalists they believe they are right and righteous.

[bushmeister0]

21. Case in point:

"In a mind-boggling alliance with Iran, Libya, Sudan, Syria and Iraq, the Bush administration tried to block a consensus at the United Nations General Assembly Special Session on Children last year in support of better education on how to avoid sexually transmitted diseases. The countries stood together in asserting that sex education promotes promiscuity. Not surprisingly, the administration's new budget calls for a $33 million increase in financing programs whose version of sex education is 'abstinence only until marriage.'"

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=united+nations+bush+administration+sudan+block+family+planning&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&u=www.dawnnet.org/publications/docs/bushAIDS2.doc&w=united+nations+nation+bush+administration+sudan+block+blocks+family+planning&d=GuBvskxISf7b&icp=1&.intl=us

Or death by firing squad before marriage. It's all good with the religious nuts.

[theboss]

93. When Baptists start killing women for wearing pants call me

You really think that American Fundamentalism has anything in common with this.

(Cue Fred Phelps reference in 3.2.1....)

[csziggy]

106. "The Handmaid's Tale" was written after Margaret Atwood visited Afghanistan

While the Taliban was ruling. But "The Handmaid's Tale" is set in a North American country with fundamentalist Christians in charge.

The only problem the Fundies here have with the Fundies over there - who would be in charge.

Both groups scare the shit out of me and have since I read the Heinlein story, "If This Goes On—" with a similar premise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22If_This_Goes_On%E2%80%94%22

(OMG - I did not realize this - "The First Prophet was Nehemiah Scudder, a backwoods preacher turned President (elected in 2012), then dictator (no elections were held in 2016 or later).") Another damn 2012 prediction!

[Mr. Hyde]

107. The fundies over here mostly want to exterminate the fundies over there.

And 99% of American Christians have absolutely nothing in common with these evil cultists.

[NoSheep]

125. I'm always HOPEFUL that the fundies here will realize.....

:hi:

[Captain Hilts]

2. You and me both. nt

[Taverner]

3. If I have to say it 1 million times FUCK RELIGION

Religion is an ethical system devised by men without empathy or reason

[Fire1]

30. Can't agree there. There's a huge difference between

'religion' and 'religious zealots.'

[Taverner]

32. Ahhh but the normal everyday relgious folks fund the zealots

By putting that dollar in the church kitty, you are funding terrorism.

[Fire1]

43. You know better than that. Many of us do not subscribe to

such thinking and we can 'see' our contributions at work within our church and/or congregational community. If I couldn't see where my dollar was going then I'd agree with you.

[Taverner]

48. Does your church do any missionary work?

If so - what?

I have seen missionaries in the field. And while some may do good work, many of them do not. Don't even get me started on the fundie ones.

Also, by validating faith over evidence, you are in essence telling everyone that it is ok to discard rationality if you don't "feel right."

If I was convinced there was a real Santa Claus, and built my life around trying to be a better Clausian, wouldn't you see cause for alarm?

[Fire1]

76. It depends on your definition of 'good work.'

Faith is rational b/c it is endowed with 'reason' and no evidence is required. The goal of a christian is to be a better christian and being a fanatic does not make one a better christian. In these terms, yes, there is cause for concern b/c these people have taken the teachings of the Koran to the extreme and out of context.

[Taverner]

81. I don't follow - how can faith, which is "Beleif without evidence" be reason?

Reason demands evidence - the world of science doesn't base things on "I felt the answer was 2" but rather "I can prove the answer is 2, over and over again"

Faith, on the other hand, is different. Most likely you believe in a deity because you feel his presence. This is not reason, but faith.

[Fire1]

94. Faith is 'rational' because it is endowed with a cause and/or

justification. The 'evidence' is also based on faith. Therefore, you can't possibly equate or link religion to science, I totally agree. I think there's an agreement somewhere in here between us.

[mike_c]

36. no there is not....

Religion is delusional insanity. Religious zealots are just the delusional insane who have embraced their delusions utterly.

[Fire1]

45. Then I'm one delusional mf.

[Bill McBlueState]

62. everyone is delusional to a degree

Evolution sets us up to not always see things as they are. All we can do is attempt to recognize our delusions and work around them.

[Taverner]

109. Nail? Meet hammer.

:thumbsup:

[mike_c]

124. I sincerely hope you can get some help with that....

eom

[spoony]

74. Did you vote for our insane president?

If so, why? Why would you support someone you thought insane?

[mike_c]

122. a bit beside the point, but no....

I don't recall the candidate I supported ever saying anything about religion. Certainly the party she represented has no religious position *that I'm aware of*.

At the very least, I'm not hypocritical about my antipathy for religious insanity.

[Reterr]

118. I am an atheist but I find this type of thinking and speech utterly counter-productive and childish

Really, what do you achieve when you speak of or to someone like that about their belief system? There are extreme fundies in every religion, but when you lump them in with the many reasonable people who still feel the need to have some sort of spiritual religious system, you ensure that you alienate and insult people who are not bad sorts even if they may not share your exact psychological profile.

I remember speaking to people like this about religion when I was in high school. How the hell do you open someone else's mind when you speak this contemptuously toward or of them?

There are a lot of people who are quietly religious in some way because they feel a psychological need to be so or were raised a particular way and if their religion doesn't harm me and they are not proselytizing bad shit why do I care about what they believe enough to obnoxiously insult them? Hell, they may even be allies in dealing with the bullshit that the worst of the fundies put out there? I may not agree with them and reserve the right to say religion in itself is superstitious nonsense, without feeling the need to condemn everything about this person and call them delusional etc.

Religion is not always useless bullshit in that it can be therapeutic even for some people who may be terrified of something in their life that they have no control over. I am speaking here about the kind of religion where you may seek some sort of inner relief by appealing to what you believe to be a higher power, not the kind that follows some sort of hate filled dogma that tells them to oppress gay people etc.
If putting some sort of faith in a higher power makes say a cancer patient feel better, why quibble with that?
If it makes certain people more likely to engage in charity, helping others etc. without hurting anyone over their beliefs, why quibble with that?


On another hand someone may be religious because they were raised that way. But, you could potentially change their minds, but not if you start off the bat sounding that rude and contemptuous. Some of us can escape being raised in a fundie way purely through inner strength or whatever. But, for the vast majority of people, a lifetime's conditioning is hard to shrug off just like that. And I don't think people like that should be treated with utter contempt just because they were born into a particulat type of family. So much of who you end up being in life is about how or where you are born.

[mike_c]

123. then we'll simply have to agree to disagree....

At some point, it has to be acknowledged that the emperor is naked.

Religion is delusion. Basing one's life on delusions is not a strong sign of mental health, IMO.

[Soylent Brice]

39. i can agree.

fundamentalists like these are found in every religion.

[RedCappedBandit]

53. yep

[spoony]

73. You've said it that many times just that I've seen.

And it truly is a shallow mind that thinks of "religion"--such an incredibly broad term--as a single, narrow thing. My religion teaches empathy and I've not lost my reason, but I can't say the same for those who mindlessly make the sort of damning pronouncements you do.

[Taverner]

102. Honestly, I think we should discuss this

That is if you want to

See it from my eyes, and I'll see it from yours - OK?

[SidDithers]

83. +1...nt

Sid

[Mari333]

5. dont worry, your tax money pays for their Viagra. and has paid for their guns

in the past.

[cali]

12. whatever. I'm not happy about the role that the U.S. has played

in putting the Taliban in power, but there's a lot more to it than that.

[Mari333]

19. saudi arabia seems to play the same game

funny how its ignored by the powers that be when SA does it...

[Warpy]

7. All religious leaders who declare war on women make me uneasy

and it seems like religion as a business attracts the kind of male who finds anything feminine detestable.

Misogyny forms the basis of homophobia, also, as they despise anything they see as remotely feminine in men.

The Taliban are disquieting because we know there are plenty of priests and ministers here who would love to be able to do exactly the same things.

[Iris]

16. see my post above.

[Quantess]

8. Yet, that arranged marriage between a grown man and an 8 year old girl is perfectly acceptable.

Remember that story from last week?

[Chulanowa]

13. Really? Says who?

I mean besides the bribed Saudi judge?

[Quantess]

27. Bribed or not, just the fact that the laws allow that marriage to stand is shocking.

And now, in a different Muslim country, their laws have decided that a romantically attracted 19 and 21 year old, heterosexual couple, deserve to die for their crime.

That was the point I was trying to make.

[Chulanowa]

42. I'm not catching your point

Is it that people are abused in places where the concept of "law" is a farce at best and nonexistent at worst?

[Quantess]

97. I think that you do get my point, but that you have a point of your own that you would like to make.

You started to say something. Go ahead, we're listening.

[Marie26]

92. Well, it's all about the patriarchy.

So in a certain way it's perfectly consistent. If women could choose their own husbands by eloping, they could determine their own fates, & they could refuse to be married to 70-year-old men. In short, they could not be controlled. And the patriarchy is all about maintaining control over women. So the Taliban guns down women who want to elope, stones women who want an education & enforces forced marriages of young girls. Thus, the patriarchy retains total control of women's bodies, lives & fates.

[Reterr]

119. I am not following the logic here

Presumably anyone critical of the Taliban would be critical of that too. Unless cali or anyone else bashing the Taliban are saying that marriage between the adult and 8 yo old is super-awesome.

[backscatter712]

9. Eliminationists scare me in a pretty primal way.

Yes, I'm reading The Eliminationists by David Neiwert.

The Taliban are eliminationists. In other words, they have decided that their tactic for dealing with political opponents is to eliminate them. Kill them, exile them, imprison them, remove them from the landscape.

What really scares me is that we've got plenty of eliminationists over here, almost all in the right wing. Christian Reconstructionists, neoconservatives, the Ku Klux Klan, neo-nazis, David Duke, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, Glenn Beck, Tom Delay, Newt Gingrich, Mitch Mcconnell, etc. etc. etc.

They're here alright, and they're getting bolder. They've got a system - they've got the right-wing wackos out on the fringes, and they have their "transmitters", aka personalities like Glenn Beck, who push their ideas on "mainstream" places like FOX News, to try to make the unacceptable acceptable. Why do you think Glenn Beck pours "gasoline" on people, calls Democrats vampires and suggests to the audience that they put stakes through their hearts?

Their goal is not to work with their political opponents (that would be us), but to eliminate them. If the country lets them continue their work, they will push for literally imprisoning us, exiling us, removing us, and killing us.

It is because of eliminationists that I keep a Glock next to my bed, and refuse to be for any form of gun control until the eliminationists also give up their weapons. Not. Gonna. Happen.

[cali]

14. historically and culturally, the eliminationists here

travel one dead end after another- fortunately. And I disagree that they're growing in strength.

[winter999]

47. I agree. Eliminators are NOT protected by law here.

But over there, they ARE the law. Where else have we seen this in recent history? Tiamen Square? KGB USSR?

[Marie26]

98. Or as Salman Rushdie would say, "purists"

I love this quote from Rushdie: "The mélange of culture is in us all, with its irreconcilable contradictions. In our swollen, polyglot cities, we are all cultural mestizos. So it is important to make a distinction between multifaceted culture and multiculturalism. In the age of mass migration and the internet, cultural plurality is an irreversible fact; like it or dislike it, it’s where we live, and the dream of a pure monoculture is at best an unattainable, nostalgic fantasy and at worst a life-threatening menace — when ideas of purity (racial purity, religious purity, cultural purity) turn into programmes of “ethnic cleansing” or when Hindu fanatics attack the “inauthenticity” of Indian Muslim experience, or when Islamic ideologues drive young people to die in the service of “pure” faith, unadulterated by compassion or doubt. “Purity” is a slogan that leads to segregations and explosions. Let us have no more of it. A little more impurity, please; a little less cleanliness; a little more dirt. We’ll all sleep easier in our beds."

His quote is sort of a guiding principle for me. If some group starts talking about maintaining "purity" or "purifying," it is time to start running the other way. It's a messy world, & the efforts of people like the Taliban to make it "pure" will end up creating only evil & violence.

[DS1]

10. It's really all about the woman not having sex with them

and having it with someone else instead. Murder them both. Fundie jealousy at its finest.

[derby378]

20. If you're trying to flee to IRAN to escape religious oppression...

...the Taliban are beyond seriously fucked up.

Watched Persepolis a few months ago. Poignant and harrowing look at the best and worst of Iran.

[Fireweed247]

22. Could this be propaganda intended to create those feelings and promote why we must continue our war?

We have wackos in this country committing mass killings for no apparent reason almost daily.

We have more people dying daily due to lack of health care!

[anonymous171]

23. Actually, news like this fuels my determination to get us out of that region.

The people of the ME are beyond hope if they continue to allow this to happen,.

[cali]

24. no. it could not be. And I'm against the war.

and grab a clue- or at least try to: The wacko fundamentalists aren't running the show here. And healthcare has nothing to do with this. your post is an epic fail.

[MadHound]

25. So, what's your solution?

Continue to rain death and destruction down on them will only drive more and more people into the arms of the Taliban. This is a war of ideas we're engaged in, perhaps we should present a better idea:shrug:

[cali]

26. uh, why should I be expected to have a solution?

there is no solution. that should be clear. I don't support the war and there is no way to provide aid with the scum Taliban in power.

[arcadian]

31. Banging out meaningless diatribe on a keyboard.

n/t

[cali]

34. yes, yes. it's so culturally insensitive to criticize the Taliban

.

[Hanse]

41. I think you're confusing criticizing with sniveling.

[cali]

68. I think you're an apologist for any heinous oppression and torture of women

the only evil you see in the world is American. Simplistic and deeply stupid.

[Hanse]

88. I think I've hit a nerve.

At no point did I ever apologize for the Taliban, or attack America in particular.

You claim to get upset over lies, but here you are, posting something you know is false. Not to mention all the childish names, potty talk, etc. And I know you can do better than that.

So I'm left to the conclusion that yes, you really do get scared of all the media boogeymen. Taliban, pirates, etc.

[blondeatlast]

80. Pot, kettle. Nuance only matters if it fuels YOUR aganda, have I got that right? nt

[Xenotime]

28. It's what the reight wants to do to this country.

[yurbud]

29. your fear of the Taliban can be managed if you simply don't go to Afghanistan

And find out why governments like Pakistan seem to support them.

[cali]

35. it's what the Taliban represents. I doubt there are many women

who don't feel that way. Fundamentalism is far, far more dangerous for women than for men.

[Hanse]

40. the women?

You mean the women of Afghanistan, the majority of whom would rather the U.S. leave?

[winter999]

49. They only reason they want the UN to leave is that's what

their Taliban Overlords are telling them to say. If women there had no fear of beheading, humiliation, destruction of home and family, I think you'd hear a different tune.

Just think how many people would shout "No Cops" if a gunman had a pistol against a loved one's head and said, "No Cops".

[Hanse]

51. Ah, so you'd rather tell the women what to think than the Taliban.

Scared? Or jealous?

[winter999]

56. I'd rather see them make a choice free of threats.

A choice under duress is no choice at all.

This is the Real World with Human Beings. Your "Prime Directive" doesn't apply here.

[yurbud]

104. so would you be happier if your daughter was killed in an airstrike than beheaded by Taliban?

If you think we are over there to spread democracy and Western Civilization, you better read up on your history and look up gullible in the dictionary.

[blondeatlast]

84. I'sd rather hear what they say free of intimidation on either side.

If we could, I'm inclined to think winter 999 would be far more correct than you are. Having known women who've actually encountered the Taliban, I'm pretty damn certain of it, in fact.

Not just met these women; I KNOW them personally.

[Hanse]

85. Certainly.

And I'm quite sure that the polls showing them wanting the U.S. out took efforts to record their honest opinions.

[cali]

87. yes, because they have such freedom and anonymity

not that it matters to the likes of you what kind of oppression women are subject to.

[Hanse]

33. Is there a media boogeyman that doesn't scare you in a primal way?

Taliban? Pirates? Mexican drug cartels? Katrina looters? Commies? Huns?

[cali]

37. hanse sweetie, do stop pulling lying crap out of your ... puckered orifice

I've never expressed any fear whatsoever of the strawmen you're so busy passionately humping. And grab a clue, hansy, the Taliban is hardly a boogeyman- certainly was real for the two in the article and for thousands more.

dog, I hate the kind of profound stupidity and dishonesty in your post.

[Hanse]

38. Hit a nerve, did I?

Of all the valid things a person has to be afraid of: the economy, spiders, heart disease, premature balding, etc. The Taliban rates way down there with european soccer hooligans in terms of actual threats.

[WildEyedLiberal]

44. Not to the Afghan women who are beaten and killed

But I have noticed for a *very* long time that the internet gandhi "peace activists" don't give two fucks about women's rights in shithole countries like Afghanistan, so your lack of concern for the atrocities committed against them is not at all surprising.

[Hanse]

46. Well, to the soccer fans trampled mercilessly.

Do you care for the women of Afghanistan, cali?

Do you support their wishes for the U.S. to withdraw?

[WildEyedLiberal]

50. Well, I'm not cali, but that "comparison" is both stupid and deeply offensive

To compare rowdy football thugs to an ideology which systematically terrorizes, oppresses, tortures, and murders women as a matter of course is appalling, but I expect no different from the faux-pacifist poseur crowd.

And neither cali nor I have said a thing about the "US" or the war. What's the matter - your need to villainize the United States is so overwhelming that you can't acknowledge or admit that the Taliban are, actually, terrible people who run the MOST misogynist government in the world? Or are you just another "peace activist" who cares about all the poor beleaguered people in the Middle East as long as those people aren't women?

[Hanse]

55. They're comparable in that they're no threat to us, and have no reason to fear them.

"I expect no different from the faux-pacifist poseur crowd...And neither cali nor I have said a thing about the "US" or the war."


And I expect the faux-women rights pro-war crowd the constantly use the Taliban as boogeymen in their unspoken support of the war, and neglect to mention that people who've replaced the Taliban are just as bad as the Taliban, and in many places are the same people as the Taliban, operating under a different flag.

[WildEyedLiberal]

71. It is typical how the fake progressives project their failings onto others

"Unspoken support of the war." What does that even mean? That if I say "the Taliban are horrible people" I automatically "support the war" because you say so? Just because YOU are a black-and-white simple-minded binary thinker for whom either the Taliban OR the war - but not both - must be bad does not mean that the rest of us are incapable of making complex moral judgments.

[winter999]

54. And the Afgan women couldn't have any touch of Stockholmn Syndrome either?

[Hanse]

59. That's a good point.

It's possible that the women are hysterical, and are incapable of thinking for themselves.

[cali]

66. only a stone cold misogynist would say that.

[Hanse]

77. Yes, that's the point of my satirical jest,

Nice pick up.

[winter999]

69. Just read in the Bajaur region of Pakistan:

Quote:

"KHAR: Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) Bajaur Agency chief Faqir Muhammad on Friday announced ban on several activities in the agency, including the shaving of beards.

Other activities banned by the Bajaur Taliban are drug pushing, bare headedness of males, non-government organisations working in the agency and the grants under the Benazir Income Support Programme (BISP). The Taliban also banned women from getting their national identity cards (ID) made or leaving their houses.

In his weekly speech broadcast through his FM radio channel, Muhammad said violators would be punished in accordance with sharia....

Meanwhile, the Taliban dumped the beheaded body of Awami National Party Bajaur senior leader Muhammad Islam Khan in the agency’s Ghundo area.

He was kidnapped on his way home on Thursday."

Sure sounds like the women can sure think for themselves. Let them leave their home, go to school, show their face, get an ID. How many women got a say in these decisions? One? Nope. The MEN tell these women what to say, think, do. Animals have more freedoms.

[cali]

70. and some misogynistic pigs

right here in River City think that's just dandy.

[Reterr]

114. Lay off the acid

:eyes:

[Gwendolyn]

116. Not hysterical. Simply imprisoned by their circumstances.

If every woman in Afghanistan suddenly took to the streets, they'd all be slaughtered for the cause, but a small inroad would be made in the fight for equal rights. That, historically has never happened, nor will it. People cling to life, no matter how tragic it is. And most people know who is providing them their bread, even if it is their "benevolent" captors.

One of the best, most heart-rending chronicles of the role the Taliban has played in the lives of women (and educated men) seems to me to be "The Swallows of Kabul," authored by Yasmina Khadra, pseudonym of one Mohamed Moulessehoul, an expat military man.

[cali]

57. first of all, hansy, I don't think you have the right to speak for the women

of Afghanistan who you clearly don't give a flying fuck about. And any asshole who compares the victim of a random trampling in a mob to what women who live under the Taliban, suffer, doesn't deserve an answer. Never the less, just to shove it in your face, I do not support continuing the war in Afghanistan. That sure as hell doesn't mean I don't wish the Taliban the very worst.

[Hanse]

60. Neither do you.

I'm content with the women speaking for themselves.

[cali]

63. I didn't. You did.

misogynistic freak bigots really don't belong here.

[WildEyedLiberal]

75. Women CAN'T "speak for themselves" in Afghanistan

They are not allowed the most rudimentary of freedoms. They are not allowed to be LITERATE.

[cali]

79. well, not to nitpick, but I think you mean women under the Taliban n/t

[Gwendolyn]

117. Ummm... they can't. They'd be beaten. Most can't read, so how can they speak meaningfully.

Most just want to get through the day.

[cali]

52. no, you would be mistaken about that. I just

have a strong dislike of vile little liars. And for those to fucking stupid to grasp it, I'll put it in simple terms: Fundamentalism taken to it's most extreme, as exemplified by the Taliban, is a frightening thing. Only the profoundly stupid can't grasp that.

[winter999]

61. Here, here. I agree. Radial fundamentalism in this respect is frightening and

dangerous. Radial Fundamentalism backed by Law is even scarier.

[Hanse]

64. Nah.

I think I hit a nerve.

[cali]

65. well, in the sense that mysogynistic bigots

rub me the wrong way, yeah.

[Hanse]

72. Do they?

Because you were very nearly defensive towards radical fundamentalist misogynistic bigots of a different creed just yesterday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8339665&mesg_id=8339978

[cali]

78. bwahahaha. FAIL

I wasn't defending the Notre Dame anti-choicers. I was correctly pointing out that they aren't the same people who opposed integration. For instanse, hansy, MLK's daughter is a leading voice in the anti-choice crowd.

Try again, hansy.

[Hanse]

82. Hence, the use of the term "very nearly."

You don't seem particularly scared of those misogynistic bigots, cali.

[cali]

86. oh for pity's sake, those people aren't

a threat to women here. Not now. And they did frighten me when bushco gave them power and they were in the JD. Now they've been neutered.

[Hanse]

89. And the taliban is not a threat to you.

But I thought you were all worked up over the principle.

You know, misogynistic bigots. The good fight. All that jazz.

[cali]

91. I though I made that clear: What the Taliban represents

scares me. I never said they were a threat to me, hansy. Clearly they're not. And anyone who isn't horrified and disgusted by the story posted in te OP, is pretty clearly a sick little turd.

[NeedleCast]

67. Unless you live in Afghanistan or Pakistan

[RedCappedBandit]

58. Religion doesn't scare me, but it does boggle my mind.

[Marie26]

90. But don't you feel sorry for the Taliban?

They're really just innocent kids, victims of an impoverished society, w/o many other economic opportunities, freedom fighters against Western imperialism ...

[MrSlayer]

95. As long as you don't have to live with them they shouldn't scare you at all.

They pose no threat at all to you. They aren't coming here.

[cali]

99. not my point. they don't threaten me. the frighten me because of

what they represent. It's funny that the people lecturing me in this thread are overwhelmingly male. Women get it.

[MrSlayer]

100. Well help me out then.

You say you are afraid of what they represent but what exactly does that mean? You are afraid of a primitive mindset held by barbarians who live half a world away? Are you afraid that somehow you might eventually be subject to this mindset or do you just fear for the people that are? Maybe my penis is blocking out what should be obvious, help me to understand.

[cali]

101. the fundamentalist mindset is threatening to me.

And yeah, I see fundamentalism as primarily driven by your sex. No, I don't feel directly threatened, but the oppression of women does send a chill down my spine.

[MrSlayer]

103. Thanks.

I agree. Fundamentalism is certainly driven by men and the oppression of women is absolutely disgusting and inhuman.

[Reterr]

115. Agreed completely.eom

[Gwendolyn]

120. She said "primal" fear. Try to imagine it in the reverse.

Imagine it in the sense that your own gender was being virtually imprisoned, beaten, raped, flogged in public, made to wear sacks of cloth over your heads in the precise correct way, and if your ankles showed, splegh... paddling right then and there in the village square. There's something visceral about the empathy it inspires. If you can't see that, well then you can't.

[MrSlayer]

131. Thank you as well.

She explained her point and I concurred. You have emphasized the point.

[Withywindle]

96. I see your point and I feel it too, cali.

The Taliban are the extreme point of where misogyny leads if followed to its conclusions. Misogyny exists in some form all over the world, but this is where we see its pure, unvarnished, un-sugar-coated form. It's what happens when every woman-hunting serial killer and every controlling, abusing, stalking, murderous ex has the full force of religious and government sanction behind them to make their twisted hate the law of the land.

Almost every woman shudders, because almost every woman has had some, however relatively minor and passing, brush with this mindset. I feel an involuntary identification with the woman in this situation -with GLBT people in homophobic situations too - and it's the stuff of nightmares. Are the Taliban a direct threat to me personally? Of course not. But these attitudes they embody ARE, and they certainly do exist in some form right in my neighborhood.

And yes, horrible violent and misogynist things happen in this country too, but last I checked, there are no LAWS forbidding women from working or going to school or traveling or being with the consensual partner of their choice, and there are no public executions in front of cheering crowds of women who violate these "norms." The US has a long way to go, and there are probably better places to be a woman in, and I don't think the US occupation is helping women in Afghanistan very much--but that doesn't mean the instinctual horror and revulsion we feel hearing stories like this is somehow anti-progressive. It is not progressive in any way, shape or form to minimize or trivialize or make excuses for acts like this, regardless of who's doing them and where.

[cliffordu]

105. Fuck the Taliban and their 14th century anti-human fake religion.

If they were all dead tomorrow I wouldn't shed a tear.

They are like Timothy McVey with poor hygiene and beards.

[Mr. Hyde]

108. an enlightened voice of reason amidst the din .

The Taliban has no business existing in this world. I for one am more than happy to set the dogs of war upon them lest their influence spread further yet. And I have said it before and I will say it again, their women can be turned against them, not all of them but enough of them.

[Prometheus Bound]

110. Why this focus on the Taliban? Part of the two minutes hate for the day?

Who is this 'Taliban' who allegedly shot them? Relatives? Wackos? Oh, but we need to send tens of thousands more soldiers to go and fight the Taliban, so we'll say they did it.

How about these reports - honour killings not involving 'the Taliban'? Don't they frighten you?

In Turkey, there have been 200 honor killings in the past year.
http://europenews.dk/en/node/21955

In Pakistan, there have been 1957 honor killings over the past four years
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/health/jan-june09/pakistan_0406.html

In Balochistan, influential tribesmen allegedly buried five women alive in the name of honour.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\04\15\story_15-4-2009_pg7_17

In Kurdish Iraq, hundreds of women and girls were killed or injured in the past year in the name of honor.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/14/kurdistan.rights/

In Jordan there are 18 to 20 cases a year of honour killing
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2009/04/08/jordan-no-honour-in-killing/

[Alamuti Lotus]

112. 'In the US, 23 women are killed by husbands or boyfriends EVERY WEEK'

[cali]

126. Another male weighing in. This has become quite interesting

as to the gender divide on opinion. And virtually no male has weighed in on the story in the OP.

[Alamuti Lotus]

111. airstrike by NATO forces early Monday in Afghanistan killed six civilians, including two children

An airstrike by NATO forces early Monday in mountainous eastern Afghanistan killed six civilians, including two children, a local Afghan official said, the latest accusation of civilian casualties leveled against NATO and American forces."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/14/world/asia/14afghan.html?ref=asia&pagewanted=print

THAT scares Afghans in a pretty primal way.

[Reterr]

113. I am surprised at how much flaming there is over such a reasonable OP

I don't always agree with you cali, but this one is a no-brainer. Fundies of any stripe are scary but not necessarily because they are coming to your home this minute to kill you (though in some cases that holds too-please spare me the Alex Jones/CT nut job BS about how 9/11 was done by the CIA and Mossad or whatever :eyes:), but because they represnt a specific and dark side of collective human behavior.

They terrify me too. What is scary is how much they all have in common throughout the world. They represent the worst extreme of irrational, thuggish behaviour.

It is funny to me that the extreme Christian nuts in this country don't realize how much they have in common with their bros in the Taliban and bad economic crises just inflame that shit. They secretly want to live in a society lawless enough that they could impose their BS on people.


As an engineer/scientist, this is one of things that infuriates me the most about the notion that science is just a "belief system" like any other bull crap that people anywhere choose to believe.

They all want to turn back the enlightenment and basically return to an era of superstitious nonsense.

[cali]

127. The flaming comes overwhelmingly from males

The gender split in opinion here is pretty striking.

[bemildred]

121. I don't like them, but they don't scare me either.

They are somewheres down in the murky chaos are far as threats go. Way below driving to the market.

[cali]

128. You're male. Your opinion fits with the majority male view in this thread

and is opposed to the majority female view. This seems to break down pretty cleanly on gender lines.

[eridani]

129. The strategy we are currently using to deal with them is exactly analogous--

--to treating a Petri dish with every single antibiotic you can think of, and then wondering why the stuff growing on it is the meanest mutherfukking colony evah.

[Fumesucker]

130. I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit..

It's the only way to be sure.

/Ripley