If that lifeboat makes it to the Somalian shore, the administration

[cali]

gets a huge black eye, and that's not merely a cosmetic injury. It has real and negative repercussions for the President. The parallel certainly isn't perfect, but remember Carter and the Iranian hostage situation. The boat making it to shore isn't the worst option for Captain Phillips, but it's among the worst outcomes for the President and his administration.

[brianna69]

1. How about we let the folks

on the ground do their jobs and stop seeing everything in the prism of things being resolved immediately to meet the satisfaction of cable TV. Let the folks do their jobs. If it takes another week to get done so be it.

[MADem]

2. That's nonsense. What do you propose? Targeted headshots?

You may not be aware that assorted Somali thugsets are holding some two hundred and fifty hostages of varying nationalities.

This is one guy, not fifty two held for the year before a reelection.

I am not about to second-guess the on-scene commander. When we do that, we're usually wrong. The best reports are coming out of Bahrain, and that's not "on-scene" by any stretch.

[cali]

3. I'm completely aware of that, but you're off by about 16

and fuck your accusing me of wanting an ill conceived and impossible action. And yes, I believe this has political ramifications should the pirates make it shore with Phillips.

[MADem]

19. Don't play the "dire" game and then get annoyed when someone calls you on it.

Don't do the "Uh oh....bad things are gonna happen!" routine without proposing an alternative course of action. Otherwise, it's only NATURAL for one to figure that you are indulging in a little wishful thinking. It sure reads that way, even if you don't like being told that.

And off by sixteen? I don't think so, if you're referring to the hostage situation. The women and African Americans were released at the outset, leaving fifty two souls to sit out the year. I remember it very clearly. I left Iran shortly before that shit hit the fan. I paid close attention.

[noamnety]

4. Why aren't you more concerned about the hostage?

This is a large part of what's wrong with politics and politicians.

The administration should be using their resources to help the captain and do what's right, not to "make the administration look good."

[cali]

8. You have no idea how concerned I am for Captain Phillips

As is my entire town- not far from Underhill- and indeed, my entire state. So try again.

[noamnety]

Your post implies that your primary concern is elsewhere. (nt)

[cali]

15. I can actually hold more thought than one.

that you can't, hardly means others are on such a simplistic level. He's a neighbor as far I'm concerned. That's the way Vermont is.

[noamnety]

17. Please stop trying to speak for an entire state.

It makes you look silly.

People in the military are asked to risk their lives on a regular basis, and that is part of their job. It's not part of their job though to risk their lives for partisan crap like "making the current administration look good."

That's absolute bullshit, and it's offensive. It was offensive when Bush did it, and we all understood that. We should be equally capable of understanding why it's a gross misuse of authority when democrats do it.

[cali]

22. oh, I think I know my state rather well. And I certainly know my tiny

village better than the likes of you who hasn't a frickin' clue. And stop putting words in my mouth. It makes you look like a complete a******. I certainly didn't implie that the military should do anything, least of all that they should "make the administration look good. Stop humping your beloved strawman. It's an ugly sight, dearie.

I have no suggestions whatsoever for the military. I don't know enough to make a suggestion. I wouldn't do so. And the last thing I want is a violent showdown with Captain Phillips caught in the middle.

What you seem completely incapable of grasping, is that separate from my concern for my fellow Vermonter, Captain Phillips, I'm simply looking at the political ramifications here- not advocating any action. It's simple enough- for anyone with a few functioning brain cells.

[noamnety]

27. If you aren't suggesting military action to save face

than I'm less offended. :)

Your statement about the "entire state" was hyperbole, no harm in you admitting that instead of getting huffy because I found it funny.

[cali]

29. I'm not patriotic but I'm waaay chauvenistic about my state

and yeah, it was hyperbole, but not by much. My little town is filling up with yellow ribbons. Vermont is a very small place. smaller than any major U.S. city. There is a great sense of community here.

[noamnety]

33. My daughter has lived there for years.

She's not involved in the yellow ribbon craze - she's heard enough vets speak with disdain about the empty symbolism of yellow ribbon bumper stickers to have nothing to do with those, even in a different context. The association is too strongly negative, and would be even if she were in a town like yours.

While your community may be having some kind of reaction to this, hers is not. That, also, is how Vermont is.

[cali]

39. uh, does she live here, or not? you used the past tense.

and perhaps where she lives or lived isn't close to where the Captain lives. Furthermore, we're talking about communities that voted to fucking impeach bushco in Town Meetings, so we're hardly talking about knee jerk patriotism here, genius. Furthermore. you aren't here. I am. And I've lived here and been active in politics and the community for 30 years. Yeah, I'll say I know a great deal more than you. OH, where is your daughter btw?

[noamnety]

50. I used the present perfect tense.

Yes, she lives there currently.

Have a great day. :)

[ThomWV]

9. Because its as likely as not he was a dead man the moment they got him off his ship.

[cali]

16. I don't believe that.

The pirates operating in that area, have, according to past hostages, treated their captives rather well. Yes, they've killed some, but that's not the norm.

[KharmaTrain]

5. Concern Noted...

So do we send in Tom Cruise, Sly Stallone or dig up John Wayne's corpse?

This is a commercial ship...a private enterprise, not an Embassy. These are a bunch of low tech thugs not thousands massed by a centralized government or movement. It's also a problem that others in the world have had to deal with...and understand how perilous this situation is, but is the cost of doing business in that region.

What doomed Carter more than the hostages being taken was the aborted attempt to rescue them. Sending the military into an unknown region with little or no support nearby is asking for turning this bad situation into a worse one.

While I'm sorry for Captain Phillips and the others who are in this situation, it's also a risk they knew they were taking, so did the company that hired them. This is a matter that requires an international solution, not a unilateral one.

[vadawg]

7. i think the pirates have to be fought and defeated, whether its by the worlds navies

private enterprise, or by the merchantman themselves, its something that will get worse if its not confronted. Theres a lot of money to be made from piracy, i just wonder where they are sending all their loot.

[KharmaTrain]

11. Follow The Money

That's always the motive in these situations and one both the corporate media and the "experts" never bother to deal with. You bring up a great point about what happens to all that money. Surely its spent it goes somewhere...or gets laundered and works its way back into the same bank accounts that own the ships.

There's a reason other countries have rather pay than fight. This should be discussed before you can come up with an effective way to combat the problem. I see this as a private business problem, not a national security one. If these attacks do become too expensive for the companies to endure, THEY, will find a rememdy...either through their own military actions or by adjusting their shipping practices.

As usual, our corporate media has ramped up a story, wrapped it in a flag and are trying to sell it as some major scandal. I guess they couldn't find a dead blonde to go chase.

[MikeNearMcChord]

43. I bet right now XE(Blackwater) is drooling

for a chance of redemption, if they got the green light.

[vadawg]

48. sometimes you have to use a pirate to catch a pirate, i would have no problem

with the shipping companies hiring private companies to safeguard their ships through this area,

[ThomWV]

6. A failed rescue attempt caused the end of Jimmy Carter's Presidency

Helicopter crashes in the desert and a traitor at home (Ronald Reagan) brought him down. There are still plenty of traitors at home ...

[Are_grits_groceries]

10. I don't think they will let that happen.

I don't know what options there are now since negotiations have broken down. I would be very surprised if they let them make it to shore.

[creeksneakers2]

12. I agree

No conclusion other than arrest or death of the pirates is acceptable. It's not just how it looks. Letting the pirates win will bring more piracy.

[DFW]

13. I don't see how or why it has to come to that

We certainly have enough power in place to prevent their boat from returning to shore, and the
pirates know full well that a live Captain Phillips is their ticket to making it home in one piece.

They have shown neither bloodthirstiness nor stupidity up to now. I can't imagine they'd start here.
They want money, not martyrs.

[jpak]

14. Obama could send marines ashore to surround the boat and fight off any land pirates.

Alternatively, they could tow it back out to sea.

Boxer and other ships there have the ways and means to do this...

[noamnety]

18. And how many marines would get killed in that operation?

I know, I know, they are expendable, it's okay to kill 3 marines to save one civilian - that's still considered a "success" for some reason.

[jpak]

26. 500+ million - and the all powerful scary pirates would capture at least twice that many

That boat - if it goes to shore - will be on a isolated beach - not downtown Mogadishu.

The Marines would have all the advantages (naval gunfire, armor, attack helicopters, Harriers) , the pirates - none.

Their pirate buddies will not come to rescue them. They are only in it for the money - not to get themselves killed.

[noamnety]

28. "Nothing can go wrong with this plan." (nt)

[jpak]

30. Yup - 4 sleep deprived pirates armed with AKs with limited ammunition will kill all the marines

The pirates will live or die by their own actions.

They can release their hostage, surrender and live.

or

Kill their hostage and die.

It's up to them.

[datasuspect]

53. or they could just send in the Navy SEALS!!!!11111

i think a quadruple threat of chuck norris, mel gibson, bruce willis, and steven seagal would solve the piracy problem.

[jpak]

56. or not

and that would solve the piracy problem and end this standoff

not

[jpak]

59. Looks like they did

:evilgrin:

[Ian David]

20. It was supposed to be a three-hour tour. n/t

[Obamanaut]

21. Let's see. Pirates have been taking ships in that region for awhile.

Many hostages have been taken. My ship is going through that region. We are essentially unarmed. What could possibly go wrong?

Oh, and don't jump in the polar bear cage at feeding time.

[Uben]

23. The navy will not let it happen

...they said so on TV yesterday

[Mizmoon]

24. I don't want to blame the victims here

but why why why do people sail anywhere near the Somali coast? The pirates have taken aid deliveries before. It's not like they're just going to let it through. What were these people thinking? They should have accepted that they needed to find an alternative route or take more precautions.

Of course that doesn't change the fact the governmment should do what it can to get them back.

[stray cat]

25. Weren't they 300 miles off the coast and the pirates came from another hijacked ship

[ThomWV]

31. I don't think they were 300 miles off the coast - but were 300 miles from some port

And I saw that 'mother ship' reported on some TV show or another and they had a picture of it. As I recall the commentary they said the ship had been taken last year in another act of piracy and it had been refitted as a supply boat and living quarters for the current batch of pirates. They have been quite successful lately and the ransoms they charge - in the millions - are being paid by the shipping companies (insurance) so its not much wonder that the practice is growing.

[stray cat]

37. The ship was seized about 300 miles off Somalia

The ship seizure, about 300 miles (500 km) off Somalia, was the first time Somali pirates have seized U.S. citizens, if only briefly. http://www.cnbc.com/id/30104147
I'm not sure how close it is now since it has been drifting. Anyway - the ship was too far from shore to be hijacked by only the 4 pirates ship - they seem to have come from a larger hijacked ship the the pirate group just sent a small group to do the job.

[Mr. Hyde]

32. That black eye will match the one the admin already has for letting a boat full of human garbage

blackmail the entire country.

[Turbineguy]

34. 300 miles

in a lifeboat is a very long trip. Several days. There are a lot of things that can go wrong.

But maybe the GOP is looking for a way to help them make it.

[ThomWV]

42. 26 hours at 10 knots.

[jpak]

49. 10 knots?

Their maximum speed is ~3 knots. They can barely make headway in a strong wind and seas, let alone 10 knots...

[Renew Deal]

35. You are bloodthirsty! What is wrong with you?

lol

[mainer]

36. VANITY FAIR had a fascinating account of a pirated crew's experience

What was interesting was that the pirates weren't violent, pretty much left the crew alone, and treated the female crew members with respect. The crew (French) was later conflicted about how they felt about the pirates. Some were sympathetic; others were vengeful.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Most pirated crews don't survive to give accounts. n/t

[mainer]

54. Not true. Not with Somali pirates.

Somali pirates just want the ransom.

" Hostages say they are generally well treated, with the pirates viewing them as common men caught in a wider game: the pursuit of million-dollar ransoms from owners. Some have described the pirates slaughtering and roasting goats on board to feed them, and passing around satellite phones to let them call loved ones back home."

http://www.javno.com/en-world/who-are-the-somali-pirates_250391

(If you're attacked by pirates in Indonesia, that's another story.)

[H2O Man]

38. Interesting OP/thread.

It appears that some people have difficulty in recognizing that one can be both concerned about the safety and welfare of the hostages, and concerned about the potential impact on the administration at home, at the same time.

[Marr]

40. In one post you're condemning people for wanting immediate action, while in this one

you're saying Obama will become Jimmy Carter if we don't see immediate action.

...

Alright-- noted. Cali was in favor of miraculously successful, instant resolution. If all goes to hell, I suppose we'll have to admit that they should've gone with your brilliant plan.

[Double T]

41. If the Somalian pirate lifeboat makes it to the shore, Captain Phillips' corpse will be dragged.....

behind a vehicle through the streets. Time to get the Navy Seals on underwater scooters and attack the GD life boat from below. The pirates won't know what hit them and it is the only chance for saving Captain Phillips' life.

[ThomWV]

44. If this situation shows us nothing else its that Rambo type special forces are a farce

The stuff of a child's mind and another aggrandizing of the horror of combat in an attempt to make it glamorous.

[Double T]

47. Glamorous? Stuff of a child's mind? Aggrandizing the horror of combat?

No. Just trying to save the life of a hard working merchant marine captain who is being held hostage by a small group of terrorists. Doesn't seem to be a job requiring Rambo, just an underwater special forces unit. Element of surprise with a touch of chaos might save this poor guys life.

[demgurl]

45. Or maybe by the boat making it ashore, Obama will show everyone up!

The UN passed a resolution that countries are now allowed to chase the people to only to the shore of Somalia but also onto the land. No country has done that yet but if Obama did it it may just show how wrong the right has been about Obama not being tough enough.

[Old and In the Way]

46. Really?

Doubtful.

But I really don't understand where the pirate sanctuary is on the Somalia coast. Check out Google Earth and see....there's no place I can find that would come close to being a port that could support such an enterprise.

[datasuspect]

51. Your post is moronic

the Gulf of Aden and the horn of Africa have had piracy for many years now. this has nothing to do with the administration.

the only reason people are talking about it is because the newstainment channels picked up on what is a fairly routine occurrence in that part of the world.

[doc03]

55. My Freeper neighbors have their

usual simple solution to this "nuke um". The repugs have two simple solutions for all occasions "nuke um" or "cut taxes". Never mind the hostages or a million innocent people there just "nuke um", you can't mess with Amurika. Toby Kieth is probably writing a song already.

[taterguy]

57. I sure hope that boat doesn't make it to the Somalian shore

[Joe the Revelator]

58. Wow Cali, you really went off the deepend here

KUTGW