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especially when that reality is actually you trying to put words into another person's mouth, metaphorically speaking.
Here is Johnson, in his own words, debating nationalization (from 03/09/09):
Steve Weisman:
Simon, what is meant by bank nationalization?
Simon Johnson: . Well, I think, Steve, different people use that term to mean very different things. The issue to my mind in the United States right now is whether you should have an FDIC-type takeover or bankruptcy procedure, if you like, managed by the FDIC for major US banks. Obviously, the FDIC does this for smaller banks on a routine basis. Now, this kind of FDIC takeover is, I think, what people are referring to in many contexts as nationalization. And some people think it’s a bad idea. Some people think the FDIC would not be able to handle this and there are other ways to proceed with regard to any big banks that may be technically or otherwise deemed insolvent.
Steve Weisman:
Just to clarify: When you say “takeover,” does that mean that the government purchases the shares, whatever they’re worth, or seizes them in some place, and takes them over? What’s the procedure in which that happens?
Simon Johnson:
Well, the determination by the regulator—which sometimes is the FDIC, sometimes the FDIC working with, for example, the state regular or one of the federal regulators—that certain banks don’t have enough capital on a forward- looking basis in order to stay in business, and the regulator has the right to, at that point, declare that you’re no longer in business. So, you’re taken over and managed by the FDIC. Ordinarily, at least for smaller banks, the FDIC tries to sell off parts of the bank’s operations. For example, the deposits of the bank, the retail deposits that are insured by the FDIC, are often sold off to another bank, perhaps immediately. So, the FDIC tries to not actually run a bank. At least that’s the traditional model. But they manage the winding down of the bank. They’re the official receiver, if you want to use a slightly technical term.
Steve Weisman:
In your judgment, the federal government—whether the FDIC or regulators or other entities—should move more assertively in taking over banks at present. Let’s talk about the context. There are 8,000 banks in the United States. But the federal government has its eye on the 19 biggest banks, on which they are now conducting “stress tests,” as they put it. In your judgment, roughly how many of these banks are candidates for being taken over, without mentioning any names?
Simon Johnson:
Federal and state government has its eye on all banks all the time. The banks are very carefully scrutinized and I think everyone feels they’ve done a good job on small and medium-sized banks in terms of determining when they’ve run out of capital, when they’re going to run out of capital, and when they’re unable to replenish their capital sufficiently and rapidly through the usual private-sector means. So, the issue is the management or the oversight of the largest banks. There the government has the right approach in setting up a stress test in which they would ascertain which banks need more capital and presumably would be given the option of raising that amount of capital privately.
My issue is just that the stress test seems to be too mild, particularly in the “stress” scenario that’s been announced. We know the general microeconomic parameter is pretty optimistic, in my view, given what’s happening around the world. But I think the stress test, when you do it for all the banks, you do it quickly and you make a pretty tough determination and then you give the banks the chance to raise capital privately, again, moving quite quickly, moving over a one- or two-month horizon. If they can’t raise it privately, then the government steps in with the recapitalization program. That would involve, obviously, government ownership of a substantial fraction of common equity.
Steve Weisman:
But you don’t think that will happen. I mean, you think that there are a number, and maybe even some of the big banks, that would have to go through this nationalization process, right?
Simon Johnson:
No. That’s not my position. My position, Steve, is I just don’t know. I want a process to be put into place through which this information will be discovered. And I would stress, this is very important, that the information that is revealed be as public and as transparent as possible. Now, there may be some things that you can’t reveal to the public. Then I would advocate, I am advocating, closed-door hearings on Capitol Hill just like you have for intelligence briefings, where you can show key senators who are skeptical of this point exactly why, for example, all the banks have sufficient capital. And if you can persuade them, just like what happens with secret intelligence briefings, then you’re a long way down the road toward persuading the public.
I want a process, and I think the process should include a sensible intervention point and, if you like it, it’s going back to the original point: It’s a form of bankruptcy if you don’t have enough capital. You’re taken over by the FDIC, and in that takeover it is typically the case that shareholders lose substantially. But by the way, most of the shareholder value in these banks has already been destroyed, not by actions of the government, but by the actions of incompetent management and boards of directors who, as far as anyone can see, have not exercised the kind of supervisory role that they’re supposed to perform.
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