Be honest: Which Afghanistan mission do you feel will succeed? The military or the diplomatic one?

[bigtree]

. . . or neither, or both?

What do you think will be the effects or consequences of that success or failure?

(I'm bearish on this * )

[Lasher]

Honestly? Neither. n/t

[JFKfanforever]

38. This video explains why failure is entrenched and inevitable...

It is well worth a listen.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/mar/27/obama-afghanistan-military

[Lasher]

39. Wow, what a bunch of knuckleheads!

:silly:

[ThomWV]

1. Neither and the result will be a fall in this country as bad as the USSR suffered.

[SmileyRose]

28. I don't want to agree with you but I do. nt

[ixion]

2. if the 'mission' is creating a western style democracy in Afghanistan

that is friendly to the US, I say: EPIC FAIL.

Same goes for ridding the world of 'terror.' It's a fool's errand, at best.

[karynnj]

22. I don't think that is what Obama said

He spoke of a stable government - so the country would not again be a host to terrorists.

[zorahopkins]

26. The US Is An Agressor Nation -- The US Should Not Host Terrorists

There are plenty of terrorists right here in the USA.

Many of them work at the Pentagon or at CIA Headquarters.

They plan and carry out wars of agression against innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan!

Before the US tries to rid any other country of "terrorists", it should indict, convict, and imprison ALL of the War Criminals here in the USA -- starting with Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice -- and including the idiots who advised President Obama to order MORE troops to Afghanistan!

[cliffordu]

3. "...The graveyard of empires...."

[Danzo]

8. Indeed.

I think that Rachel Maddow said that Russia used as many as 160,000 troops to try to control Afganistan, but ultimately failed of course.

I don't think the diplomatic OR the military tactics will succeed, but the military tactics are even MORE likely to fail.

[county worker]

4. Neither,

There will be no success in Afghanistan until women have civil rights and their freedoms protected.

[tekisui]

5. As long as we are surging and escalating with the military,

I doubt it or any other efforts will succeed. The definition of success has been scaled back, but is still ambiguous at best. The result will be more destabilization and radicalization of Pakistan. Afghanistan will see an increase in violence. India will saber rattle and grow anxious with Pakistan's spiral into a failed state. All the while US dollars going to Afghanistan, and Pakistan's corrupt Army and US soldiers coming home in boxes.

Nothing good is coming there.

[panader0]

6. I'm afraid neither one can succeed. Get out now please.

I think we have a better chance to end "terrorism" by getting out of other countries. Terrorists are created by occupations and invasions. The British considered the Minutemen "terrorists".

[geek tragedy]

7. The diplomatic one had to succeed, or otherwise

there's no point to the military one.

[MarjorieG]

9. I think Obama had to try, given the deterioration. Mission narrowed, and I think he'll reconsider

before we become mired. He's pragmatic, but the threat of Al Qaeda strong. Don't know how else to counteract. Just pretend they're not there?

[tekisui]

12. Deal with Al-Q as a criminal outfit, not as enemies in war.

Fund the intelligence, the police work, and listen to the reports. Had all that been done, we'd have no 'waronterra'. We need to get out now, and protect ourselves from them as we do any other criminal.

[MarjorieG]

31. Agree, and so does Obama. From Kerry's 'it's an intelligence and policing problem' that GOP slammed.

At this point, we've done so much wrong, we have to stabilize. I really don't see Obama making the same mistake of democratization.

[Oregone]

10. The diplomatic one can succeed if done properly I think...

But who is going to negotiate honestly with us after we starting fucking their country 30 years ago. Everyone of decent age there remembers what they used to have, before the Cold War used them as a Chess Board, and before we carpet bombed the fall out the last few years. Its tough for me to think they'll play ball.

If we went in with the philosophy that we weren't going to build a western style democracy, but rather, just help a people (Peace Corp style), and ONLY IF, the Taliban trusted us to help in this way and allowed it (BIG IF), then it could work. I just don't see our heads, or their heads, being in the right place. Besides, that doesn't sound profitable. Does the US engage in foreign diplomacy that isn't fiscally advantageous?

[cali]

13. yes, indeed. The Taliban will work with peace corps style volunteers.

In some alternate reality, that is.

[Oregone]

14. Yeah, its really a tough sell

The damage is done probably.

Perhaps we may find that the Taliban is not what many think it is though. Perhaps it isn't a fear driven theocracy that they want, at any price. Perhaps it is power they want, and a fear driven theocracy is the best way to obtain and ensure it. Perhaps if they were guaranteed power in exchange for concessions, we could actually work toward rebuilding the shit house we partially created.

[fujiyama]

19. We didn't create the shit house

THEY did. The Pakistani ISI and the Taliban that is.

Our problem was trusting the same ISI that created it to fix it up.

[Oregone]

20. We didn't build the shit house?

You know, before we funded and operated a proxy war there, it really wasn't the shittiest little house on the street at all. Im talking BEFORE the Taliban. The Taliban is just a collection of a bunch of mis-educated, pissed off fatherless boys that were fallout from the Cold War.

[fujiyama]

21. Ah, in that case you are correct

Yes, we can pin that on Reagan (and Carter to some extent)....

[Oregone]

25. And that is where I am coming from

(Operation Cyclone)

Now, where do you find common ground? Or do you just stand aside and see if someone else can do it, and fund it because you feel "morally" obligated to clean up your mess? Id love to see us get every soldiers out of there, but just leaving the country to rot again doesn't seem like that will help out the us, them, or the rest of the world at all.

The current state of Afghanistan isn't a natural trend in the evolution of their culture. A foreign force brought that there. The question remains if it could by rectified within this lifetime.

[fujiyama]

37. I actually feel like I've had a change of heart regarding our involvement in Afghanistan

Up until now I was a big proponent of a "surge" in Afghanistan believing we can "defeat the Taliban", but I'm now convinced the whole thing is doomed to failure even with Obama at the helm.

What I don't get is why are we throwing billions more into Pakistan which is playing us anyways? They created this and we're giving them money...to help the Taliban more (after all that's what the ISI is doing)? The Taliban is a Pakistan and Saudi created movement and it's not just a gang within Afghanistan. It's part of the entire landscape across the region. It's an ideology and besides people simply snapping out of their reactionary religious beliefs, I don't see how we can change this. I am now convinced the Obama administration's strategy is the one that is naive and deluded.

Hell, considering our past involvement, maybe countries in that immediate sphere of influence (other than Pakistan) can handle the crisis better than us - meaning Iran (yes, I said it - the Shiite government hates the Taliban), Russia, the surrounding central Asian countries and India. Leave it to them. No one trusts and for good reason.

[rampart]

11. flag draped coffins

full of dead dreams and opium.

[leftchick]

15. neither

just look at its history.

[jody]

16. Neither.

[fujiyama]

17. .

[KG]

18. neither.

[LSK]

23. the one where he enriches his defense contractor buddies...

oh wait, that was last year....

:shrug:

[zorahopkins]

24. Military Plans NEVER Work -- I Hope This One Fails, Too!

War is never -- NEVER! -- the answer.

The United States should pull every last one of its troops (along with any CIA operatives) out of Afghanistan -- NOW!!

I am so very sad that President Obama has been lied to by his top advisors -- how else to explain his terrible decision to send MORE American troops into the quagmire known as Afghanistan???

The US is engaged in pure aggression against the nation and people of Afghanistan. And the whole world is watching!!

We must -- MUST -- DEMAND that the US leave Afghanistan -- AT ONCE!!

No More Troops!! No More WAR!! War is NEVER the answer!!

Let the people of Afghanistan live in peace --- REMOVE ALL US TROOPS NOW!!

[Boojatta]

32. "War is never -- NEVER! -- the answer."

The Nazis considered war the answer when they attacked France. When France fell, should everybody have accepted the new status quo of Nazi control over France?

[OwnedByFerrets]

27. The ONLY thing that may work is Three Cups of Tea

google is your friend.

[bigtree]

33. google

Humanitarian Greg Mortenson Goes Where Solutions Are - Democratic ...
11 posts - 5 authors - Last post: 3 days ago
Edited on Sat Mar-21-09 12:28 PM by bigtree ... Three Cups of Tea, a memoir, goes back to 1993 when an attempt to climb the summit of K2, ...
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5302135 - 62k - Cached - Similar pages

[FarCenter]

29. The thermonuclear attack on Pakistan's nuclear weapons centers followed by invasion by India

[bigwillq]

30. Neither

The Middle East is a lose-lose.

[undeterred]

34. The one where we get our troops the hell out of there.

[Johonny]

35. In the major populous areas both might succeed

in the more rural areas it's possible the military can at least keep the Taliban in check. It's unlikely any total country plan can ever work because the people in this region have no feel for this country as a unified nation. Obama's plan can be nothing short of a multigenerational total rebuilding of the area. It's hard to see this working because a) the US populous is uninterested in a long term nation building project b) much of the population in the region is uninterested in seeing the US in the role c) much of the current regional power structure (religious and social) is not on our side.

[Fumesucker]

36. Kipling knew a bit about Afghanistan..

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!

Rudyard Kipling