Excerpt: Parents, your kids aren't that special

[2Design]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/03/03/cafferty.excerpt.2/index.html

I don't know the status of parenting in America. But I know a little about the status of education in America. Parents' growing inability to impose manners and limits on their kids when the kids are in school is reflected in record dropout rates, as well as teen drug and alcohol abuse, teen sex, and unwed pregnancies. Maybe it's parenting that's on the decline, more than the schools.

[cali]

1. simple minded analysis for the simple minded. n/t

[skooooo]

65. so parenting ISN"T in decline?

I definitely think there's a valid point here! Things have changed. Parents don't know how to set limits for their kids.

[Echo In Light]

98. The American collective grows more unstable due to wide adherence to conditioned un-reality

The prevailing mode of existence the corporate, consumer culture fosters isn't conducive to a well balanced life. This explains the peculiar feeling of things 'spinning out of control' for those who, due to cultural indoctrination, have never seriously questioned their life, their country, its system of governance, the predominant forms of opinion making and shaping within their society, etc

[Overseas]

102. Ideal parenting imagery used against working families these days

is from a time where one income would suffice to support a family. One parent's income was enough to run a family, so the homemaker could take the time to cook family dinners and teach manners. But we have busted up our unions and shipped a lot of the better paying manufacturing jobs (and now a lot of customer-service jobs too) overseas.

Nowadays, with both parents working full time if they can or cobbling together a few part-time jobs, there is less time for family and parenting. Both parents are exhausted. That puts a strain on marriages too. Sometimes men whose partners work full time outside the home still expect them to keep a clean house, fix most of the meals, stay fit and keep the kids in line. When those things slip, they break up. Others realize that with both parents working, family and home chores need to be divided up if they want to sustain a nurturing family life, and they do their best to keep that going. But they are still exhausted, so TV and video games keep the kids and family amused, and encourage them to buy more stuff they can't afford to build up the ever more luxurious lifestyles promoted very heavily on TV.

So a lot of the condemnation of American family values has seemed like economic discrimination to me. The ideal imagery harks back to decades earlier, when one unionized factory job could support a family, buy a home and car. But we are in very different times now. Unions were busted and real wages for average people have declined since the 80's, so more families need both parents to work outside the home. Other advanced economies have a few more social safety nets to help working families. National health insurance. Better day care. Better parental leave support. Longer standard vacations.

We chose instead to fund our wars and financial shenanigans so family and educational support needs were shoved aside. Considered less important than bombing other countries to secure our oil supplies or fighting the scary scary Cold War. Alternative renewable energy was deemed "too expensive" to develop when we still had so much oil available. We chose to fund our military industrial complex and cut taxes for the top earners instead of "lifting all boats." We told working families to keep waiting for some of the wealth to trickle down from the super-rich. If we helped the very rich, we were told, we would all benefit. We didn't realize it was actually Trickle-Up Economics.

We let our working families take the hit. We let their wages decline while productivity rose. We cut taxes on the super-rich so they could absorb most of the profits from the increased productivity. We let working families scramble for money to buy all the fancy consumer goods and luscious snacks promoted relentlessly through more and more TV commercials. Then condemned them for not teaching their kids good manners and eating habits.

Things were different when there were more solid union jobs to support our families.

[Kitty Herder]

190. Excellent reply! I would recommend it if it were an O.P. nt

[QueenOfCalifornia]

111. Oh come on....

In my lifetime - as a kid, parenting was a joke. I am 52. My mothers idea of parenting was to slap me, kick me, rip my hair out, hit me with anything she could find to hit me with, tell me I was stupid and ugly & let me go where ever I wanted as long as I was home in time for dinner. The generation who believed that spanking and hitting kids was the only way to bring 'em up is what you are so attached to? My teachers got to get in their licks too. If it wasn't bad enough at home, I could always look forward to corporeal punishment through the school system. No one ever thought twice about stopping a mother or father who would slap their child at a baseball game or in the grocery store... It was none of anyone else's business. If I saw any parent hit their kid I would let them know how abusive and god damned unforgivable it is to raise a hand against a little one. I wish someone had stepped in for me. Oh, it was just not their business to get involved - My mother never spoke a kind word to me and never had a compliment for me because it was thought that giving a child praise would spoil them and give them a "big head."

My 2 children are polite and they better fucking listen to me when we go out - I have NEVER hit them. I am a fucking hell of a lot better parent than my mother and my spineless father who didn't dare tell her to stop because she might get "upset" with his ass. My kids listen to me because they learned a long time ago that we will leave and go straight home and they will be sitting in their rooms if they pull any kind of crap.

When they were really little they tested me like crazy. They learned that I was not going to let that shit work... Now they are 8 and 9 and they are welcome everywhere. I get compliments on their behavior. My son has Asperger's - It has been a challenge but he is the nicest kid in the world and he also knows I am not fucking around - Sure, I could have used that good old fashioned child rearing technique of knocking the shit out of my kids - that would make my kids fearful and angry and make me a big, piece of shit bully.

There have always been rotten parents but I doubt that parenting has become worse. Yes, things have changed but in my case it has improved.

Oh, and Doctor Phucking Phil can kiss my ass...

[Warren DeMontague]

139. Apparently, it's been in "decline" since Aristotle, or longer...

since people have been bitching about "these kids today" since the beginning of time.

[Bill McBlueState]

2. "Parents' growing inability to impose manners and limits on their kids..."

Some evidence that this problem is actually growing would be nice. Everyone likes to complain about "parents these days," but evidence that these days are different from any other days is usually missing.

[Kaleva]

13. How about the need for security cameras and metal detectors?

[Bill McBlueState]

15. What does that demonstrate?

That the companies who make security cameras and metal detectors have gotten better at marketing?

[Deja Q]

143. No. That kids have become more and more unruly.

Something I unfortunately have to agree with.

50+ years ago, chewing gum in class would result in a slap in the wrist.

20 years ago, chewing gum and wearing a t-shirt of a heavy metal concert with a slogan "Metal up your ass" and a nice picture of a toilet with dagger-wielding fist coming up out of it was fully allowed. 1989... the principal and others couldn't be bothered. (probably because it's okay for others to wear filth and anyone saying their own freedoms were being violated by having to look at that distracting crap would be punished.)

By 1996, the same high school that allowed that disgusting t-shirt had to implement metal detectors.

Never mind all the media attention given to the kids who have to go home because of a political slogan (either right-wing or left-wing, all the people on "the other side of the fence" immediately whine "____ism! Violation of free speech"

x(

Yet nobody seems to want to remember school is a place to get educated, free from idiotic distractions not pertinent to their purpose for being there.

Forgive me, but as much as slapping a wrist with a ruler for -- chewing gum -- was too harsh, the pendulum has swung too much the other way. Any little thing, regardless of how annoying, is allowed and more.

It's time for uniform codes of conduct to be reinserted into the school system. Letting the bullies get away with everything in school carries on afterward; it's an "entitlement" in their own eyes. No, it is not. Those behaviors are NOT tolerable, nor are they welcomed. Not in class. They can advertise what they want after the school day is over, but not during.

It's pathetic we need cameras and metal detectors in the first place.

Look at the core causes, the symptoms are a byproduct of the cause and are not, in of themselves, causes. Why else do bullies get away with everything they do and it's their victims that get the punishment -- for crimes they never committed?

[customerserviceguy]

21. Go fly on a cross-country airplane flight with kids on it

and you'll get a glimpse of how people's "little darlings" behave. Maybe you'll be one of the really lucky ones who get a seat-kicking screamer right behind you, and you can reflect on the fact that a lap child under the age of 24 months gets to fly for FREE!

Back in the Pacific Northwest, I used to grab meals in the bar area of a restaurant, anyone under the age of 21 was prohibited from that section of the place. But here on the East Coast, where you can't even buy a beer before church gets out on a Sunday, they're allowed to bring children into that area. The last thing I want to hear is someone's crying baby while I'm trying to enjoy a peaceful beer.

I don't drag a bottle in a brown bag into the playground area of McDonald's, why do these idiots think they should drag their kid into an adult beverage area of a restaurant/bar?

[Kalyke]

32. Blame the anti-smoking zealots for that one - not the parents.

If smoking was still allowed in the closed-off bar section of a restaurants, there would be no babies in there.

Just sayin'...

[madmom]

110. Not so sure about that...just sayin'

[Bill McBlueState]

46. data is not the plural of anecdote.

But thanks for the info.

[customerserviceguy]

Hey, gather your own data

I've got plenty of my own. Besides, how would you attempt to find statistical evidence on this, anyway? All you could really do is a poll that asked if kids were less well behaved now than they were twenty years ago.

My prediction is that if you did such a poll every decade, they'd all say the same thing, pretty much a solid yes. It wouldn't prove anything, just the perception.

[GoCubsGo]

47. Heck, just go to the grocery store...

Or Target. Or Walmart, pinnacle of it all (yet another reason I refuse to shop there). I once had a family pass me in the grocery store aisle, and one of their brats reached out and grabbed me. This wasn't a toddler or infant, either. The parents sniggered at me when I glared and shook my head. Tee hee hee! That silly lady doesn't like our little precious drive-by groping her! What a loser! Then there's the uncontrolled tantrums and random, ear-drum-rupturing toddler screeches. There are some parents who will take the kid outside, but most of 'em just let the kid wail on. I would rather listen to fingernails on a chalkboard than that.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Actually, in he adults on the planes are far worse "these days".

although I don't blame them, any more than I blame the kids-- flying has become about as pleasant as a root canal; "these days".

The planes are jam packed, the staff is pissed off and too often tyrannical, the service sucks and the overall experience is miserable.

I had a 350 lb Korean Man with Kimchee on his breath fall asleep essentially in my lap all the way to Europe, once. Whose fault is that?

[customerserviceguy]

157. Sorry to hear that

but he was only able to pretty much bug one person, screamers make things tough for everybody within at least a ten foot radius. I always travel with earplugs anymore.

[Warren DeMontague]

167. Having had both experiences...

I have to say that being lovingly groped by this gentleman in his sleep for 4,000 miles was about as bad as it gets.

[seabeyond]

173. llol lol.... ya, well i always got the jerk hittin on me while i stuck a book in my face

i hear ya

[ejpoeta]

34. i see it all the time. kids having no respect for adults or authority at all.

a lot of it has to do with their parents telling them they don't have to listen to anyone. like going in and yelling at the teacher for disciplining their kids and such. When i was young it was rare to see a kid talk back to an adult. now, it's commonplace.

[tsuki]

37. When I was a kid, I went to a community based school. The teachers

lived up the block, attended the same churches and social clubs, Lions etc. There was interaction and a real concern. It does make a difference.

[JerseygirlCT]

150. It does work both ways, though

I had a few humdingers when I was a kid - teachers who were downright abusive to children. My parents wouldn't have *thought* about confronting them. It wasn't done.

But they should have.

Respect needs to go both ways, and children should be taught that respect is the default position, if you will - taught not by words, but by observing the adults in their life behaving that way, too - toward other adults, and toward children.

[JerseygirlCT]

149. Not necessarily defending that - and certainly not defending rudeness

in kids or adults - but I think in part kids today are taught a certain amount of skepticism wrt listening to adults. And that's because their parents have been made concerned by adults taking advantage of kids.

There's a difference between acting respectfully (as kids and all people really ought to do across the board) and obeying adults not your parents, YKWIM?

[Marr]

103. Reminds me of something I read once-- it was written in ancient Rome.

I'm afraid I can't recall who wrote it or where I read it (may have been a museum)-- but it was the same assumption Cafferty is making. This guy was talking about the good old days, just 20 years or so previous, when the kids were all well-behaved and intelligent.

[customerserviceguy]

158. Well, we know what happened to Rome...

just saying.

[Bill McBlueState]

130. It's interesting

to read the responses to my post and see what qualifies as evidence in the minds of some DUers.

[JerseygirlCT]

147. I think there's truth in this

The "good old days" always look better in retrospect. The here and now is where we always see problems up close.

I don't doubt there are too many parents who are too uncomfortable setting limits for their kids. I've run into them, too - among my kid's playmates, for example. But this seems a fairly simplistic explanation.

[NOW tense]

3. I don't totally disagree with Cafferty. n/t

[seabeyond]

4. the basis i agree, the story is bullshit. the tired and old, out of control kid at nice restaraunt

throwing fuckin mash potaTOES across the table. that is such crap. all these out of control kids all over the place i never see

now.... the conclusions, maybe it is the lack of parenting instead of schools, i am all over

[customerserviceguy]

25. Then you don't get out enough

Or, you go to the REALLY expensive places. There are a lot of people who think Red Robin is McDonald's, and they have ruined the prospect of being able to eat a ten-dollar hamburger in peace. The same is true of anyplace where you can pay only about fifteen or twenty dollars for a meal.

[seabeyond]

35. red robin is a friggin family rest, without matre de. that is funny. i get out tons

i go to nice restaraunts, have a life time. and this si so over the top.

again

that out of control kid that seems to ruin so many lives on a regular and consistent basis just does not seem to cross my path

[fasttense]

51. seabeyond, Just wondering, why do you NOT use capitalization?

Writing like this is very difficult to read.

So I'm just curious why people write without capitalization.

[seabeyond]

52. cause i dont want to.

sorry if it is hard for you

[chrisa]

5. Parents are becoming "friends" with their kids...

Instead of being their parents.

[cali]

6. what baloney. Got any evidence for this? And it's not an either/or

proposition. One can both be an effective parent and a friend.

[seabeyond]

8. nah... i tell mine i am parent not friend. mama rules over friend any ole day

and i am not giving up that role.

[Fire1]

121. And you and your children are better off for it.

[billyoc]

19. Wasn't there a story about a teacher that was fired for failing students caught cheating?

I'm not sure when it was, last year some time. I don't pay much attention to that sort of thing, I gave up on American parents a long time ago.

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. Several years ago there was a Science teacher here who flunked a bunch of kids

for plagiarizing on an assignment and their parents went ballistic, demanding that she change the grades. The school board sided with the parents and the teacher resigned. It got lots of national attention but I don't know if that's the story you were thinking of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/national-briefing-plains-kansas-school-board-reaffirms-plagiarism-decision.html

[billyoc]

177. Yes, I think that's the one, thanks.

[chrisa]

85. Yes, but...

Some parents would rather be "cool" to their kid's teen friends than actually be a good parent. Buying kegs for High School kids to have drinking parties, and stuff like that.

For example:

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon/index.ssf/2009/02/holland_township_mom_cited_aft.html

Another:

http://gothamist.com/2008/11/02/cool_parents_get_busted_for_throwin.php

Those are extremes, but I see alot of parents trying to be a peer to their teenage kids rather than actually being a parent.

[Fire1]

117. I think that's the biggest problem. You cannot be a 'friend' and

a parent during the early stages of social and emotional development. Which is also partly the reason these kids are out of control. They are 'confused' and crying out for some form of limits and structure. Parental 'friendship' is appropriate at a later age.

[seabeyond]

122. kids soooo want the line. kids, little ones need, demand the parent be the boss

direct and guide. if you tell them how far they are allowed to go, what is simply too far, they give a huge thumbs up. kids dont handle free for all.

i agree with you.

been a while since they were so little and all their being showed me that. now i just implement with older and works well

[ejpoeta]

18. i assure you i am not a 'friend' to my kids. my ten year old frequently tells me i'm mean

and she hates me!! i tell her that means i must be doing my job then. it's hard being a parent, though because there are any number of 'experts' telling you how to parent your kids. no matter what you try to do it isn't good enough or right. i don't spank my kids nor do i support it's use, but the idea that kids KNOW that they can go to the nurse and say you are hitting them or something and that they have some sort of power over their parents. now, here i am not talking about the hitting of kids. i am talking about the kids ability to manipulate their parents and an undermining of a parents authority over their kids. parent's just don't know WHAT to do to discipline their kids.

when i was a kid, i remember that the neighbors were fully able to reprimand me if i was acting inappropriately. and they could and would call my parents. now, we have parents who will yell at anyone who dares even speak to their kid or look at them. so kids have this idea that they don't have to listen to anyone and can do anything they want to do. if MY kid is misbehaving in a park or at someone's house.... I expect them to respect adults and to listen to them. and i will say thank you to someone who tells my kid not to climb on the outside of the playground equipment, which i see kids do ALL THE TIME!!! they sit in the baby swings and break them. they climb all over the outside of the tunnels and such. besides the fact that they could destroy public playground equipment, they could also be injured. And what do you think the results of that end up being??

I tend not to take my kids to fancy restaurants. I try to gauge how tired they are and such before I take them even into denny's. But it's tough being a parent because no matter what you do there are people staring at you. it's wrong. whatever you do is wrong. I've learned to try to head any problems off at the pass. But I've been a parent for awhile.

[ShortnFiery]

29. Wait until your kids hit their teen years, you'll also be consider STUPID.

:evilgrin: Somehow this too shall pass and when they've reached 35-40 y.o. they'll come to the realization that we were right to care and that we love them dearly. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

38. ba haha, had conversation last night at dinner table, 16 yr old nice, 14 and 11 yr old sons

decades on the kids and when teenager all of a sudden us adults know nothing. this inexperienced kid is so beyond all us adults, lol lol

i hear ya

[ejpoeta]

94. i remember being a teenager and thinking i knew it all. my parents didn't know

what they were talking about and they didn't know what it was like to be a kid. it wasn't until i was out on my own trying to pay bills that i understood how little i knew after all. i think it's normal and natural.

[seabeyond]

96. i am tellin ya.... had the niece and told her just that. we KNOW know, cause it is 100%

100% of kids KNOW they know more than adults. can be a good kid, mature kid but bottom line a kid just KNOWS they know more than an adult with three decades on the kid. it just is. part of the development.

i remember, i did too and i was a good kid, an easy kid. but then i probably listened to adults more than most kids.

[tsuki]

41. you forgot, and MEAN. I was STUPID and MEAN for so many

years. Now, I am waiting to be a Grandmother...PAYBACK TIME!



:evilgrin:

[ejpoeta]

90. i know. LOL! payback's a bitch i guess. i wasn't so nice to my mom.

she's up there laughing right now!! hehe. emy tells me i'm fat, stupid ugly. i ignore it. or i'll say, well i'm sorry you feel that way. i've learned the key when she has her fits is to keep a calm, steady voice. i'll tell you, nothing made me appreciate my mother more than becoming a parent.

[TXRAT2]

189. You stole my Thunder.

My line was going to be " Just wait until your kid have kid's ". A couple of years ago my daughter and the boy's (7 and 9) came over and we all went to the back section and did a little fishing. She and I were sitting in a couple of lawn chair watching the boy's when she reached over, grabbed my arm and told me she was sorry. When questioned why, she said " For not listing to you and thinking I knew everything". All I could do was smile and give her a hug.

[patrice]

24. Definition of "friend"? I didn't see enough parents who were real friends, when I

taught highschool.

Friend: someone who honestly understands you, so they KNOW when you're being dishonest or bullshitting yourself and others.
Friend: someone who may be emphathetic, but not sympathetic, because they don't look down on you.
Friend: someone who will share his/her true mind and heart with you.
Friend: someone will not use their love for you to threaten you and isn't afraid that you will stop loving them.
Friend: someone who isn't afraid of your questions and isn't afraid to say "I don't know, but maybe we can figure it out."
Friend: someone who understands your mind well enough to explain things to you in a manner that really works for you.
Friend: someone who doesn't resort to force and/or punishment just because they don't have any other resources.
Friend: someone who will give up some of their own life for you.

[patrice]

40. What we have is a bunch of old kids living with younger kids who happen to be their offspring.

[seabeyond]

45. define mom.... it is all of that and actually saying NO. n/t

[patrice]

179. Agreed. Knowing what's going on is one of the most important things.

And, therefore, HOW one knows what is going on is also one of the most important things.

Kids who have gone underground on you will not let you know what's going on and trying to find out by other means can cause other serious additional problems.

Being a Real friend to them will let you know what's going on, being honest, clear, and strong enough to LET THEM KNOW the things they MUST know about what's going on, including all necessary injunctions and warnings, but no "No"s that are un-necessary, which just tend to make them angry for no useful purpose. After a certain point in their individual development, after we have fulfilled all of our responsibilities to their development, they MUST take the majority of the responsibility for what's happening themselves.

[JerseygirlCT]

154. Too true. nt

[YOY]

50. Afraid not.

In the YOY household, Mommy is a little lenient for the sake of being nurturing but is strict when she needs to be and what Daddy says is law.

And Daddy does not make stupid or unnecesary laws just to be a tyrant.

[patrice]

180. "stupid unnecessary laws" = people need to figure out the difference

between what the Child needs, and doesn't need, and what the Parent(s) WANT, but doesn't/don't need.

I think keeping-up-with-the-Joneses too often figures tooooooo strongly in this particular equation.

[JerseygirlCT]

153. Yeah, that's the old story

I really haven't seen much of it in reality, though.

I have run into parents who just aren't good at saying "no" firmly enough - who knows why?

And really, what is a "friend"? Someone you trust? Someone you like to be with? Shouldn't parents be that?

I have two thoughtful, kind kids - one now an adult, one definitely not. As they grow, they've continued to have a basic trust in me - and talk freely with me. Does that make me a "friend" in that derogatory way - or just an involved parent?

[krabigirl]

168. God forbid! My parents were uber-strict..never my friends. I rebelled and was the worst kind of teen

Seriously, I do NOT plan to raise my kids that way.

[LisaL]

7. Well, it used to be that parents could spank their kids and

discipline them. Now try to spank the kid and CPS might be on your case.

[seabeyond]

12. you dont NEED to spank the kid to get good behavior, good choices

good outcome with children

parents can be parents today just fine, if they are willing and if they do

[customerserviceguy]

28. How many kids do you have, or have raised?

I hear this type of theorizing all the time from the childless, I'm just curious to know if you might be one of them.

[seabeyond]

42. two, boys.... one working on 14.

no, i have not needed spanking, belts ect... though my parents used on us. worked on me, not two brothers.

not opposed to it. dont see it as abuse, as long as there is not a anger, but is a discipline, punishment. but no.... we dont use it or need it.

[customerserviceguy]

156. Ok, well you gotta go with what works

You say it didn't work on your two brothers, have they ever been in trouble with the law? You know, for what we usually think of as an offense? (excluding use of recreational drugs or alcohol here).

[seabeyond]

159. lots, lol lol.

literally didnt work. they were challenging teenagers, one didnt graduate from school. the other cause of footie footie football only....

they havent committed armed robbery, or murder or anything.... but mostly not paying tickets, drinking, drugs....

you may exclude, but...

[Midlodemocrat]

166. Five. Not a one of them was spanked.

Two are adults, one is in college, one in high school and one in middle school.

The adults weren't 'mine', I simply raised them.

[ejpoeta]

31. it's not so much if they are willing. they want to be good parents, but there is so many

'experts' out there and they don't know WHAT to do. especially if you are like me who was raised being spanked. i do not spank my kids. but when you were raised with that as the discipline, it's hard to figure out what to do. It's simplistic to say that parents can parent fine if they want to or are willing to. It's about authority, and the balance of authority is off. kids KNOW that all they have to do is go to the nurse and say you hit them or something. parents are afraid of their kids in some senses. or doing the WRONG thing. i know that when my eldest was younger, around the time that one woman was arrested in walmart parking lot for beating her kid in the car, I was scared to death someone would think i was beating my daughter as she was throwing a fit and I was just trying to get her in her car seat. SHe was hitting me and pulling my hair, but I was paranoid that a security camera would think i was doing something to her. It was a very scary time for me. and it happened a lot with her temper tantrums. I'd pick her up and carry her to the car while she would hit me and pull my hair and I never lay a finger on her. and people would stare. uggh.

[seabeyond]

43. i didnt have the same concerns, or the dame fear as you, nor experience

when my youngest (oldest didnt even bother), was old enough to get and say cps... i told them to call, fine with me. no fear there. nothing for cps to see in my house.

my child did not have the power. i never relinguished, or handed it over. i refuse. from youngest of age i told my boys that no one had authority over them but me.... not family, school, police or govt. i was it. just how it has been in this house.

[ejpoeta]

91. i am not so worried about cps being here. they were here once.

we had a friend who claimed we were beating our daughter and not feeding her. it was not true and they quickly found it unfounded. i think ray thought we were bad parents and so he lied to get them to come to our house. i was not mad at him for being concerned, it was the lying that made me mad. my sister is a lawyer who commonly represents the kids in court. i called her and she told me to do whatever they told me to do. i don't really trust cps, as when i was 16 and cps came to our house (i had an 11 year old little sister)... we had no food, no running water and no heat, but their response was that i could leave any time i wanted. they did nothing to help my sister. i wasn't going to leave her there by herself!! i'm not really afraid of cps coming to my house. it is the attitude that kids don't have to listen to people.

also, when you told your kids about authority, that's different than going up to someone in front of your kids and telling them don't you talk to my kid or yell at my kid. the kid gets told by that action that they don't have to listen to anyone. i expect my kid to listen to their teacher and a police officer. you have to respect authority. it's called respect. but if i had an issue with a teacher or anyone else, i would not address it in front of my child.

[seabeyond]

92. respect is a whole different story from handing over our authority of our children over to different

institutions. i see more parents try to give their responsibility to schools and just irks me. i refuse. i parent my child, the school is there for education. i do my job. the school does not need to be the parent and can focus on the education

respect is a whole other matter.

if i am willing to insist on my job as a parent, it certainly includes impressing on my children the definition of respect. adn it starts with self..... and ripples out.

we live in an area that is so different from who we are. it is a good thing. my children will argue their causes but ALWAYS in repsect. they have gotten quite good at being respectful to another even in disagreement.

respect is absolutely crucial in a civilized society. it is unfortunate that so many adults cannot live respectfully to one another, yet we demand, insist on it from our children. not gonna work that way.

[ejpoeta]

93. i agree with you. i am the parent. and i do not abrigate my responsiblity

to my child to the school or a teacher. good on you for teaching your kids respect! i have to say it is tough for me to figure out that balance. because i want my kids to have their own minds and own ideas and to be able to be respectful also. i'm working towards that. i remember my behavior was based on fear. even today when my sister and i talk about if we had talked back to an adult... you never really knew for sure what would happen, but you didn't want to find out. that kind of thing. i do not want a fear based relationship with my kids. they fear they will lose their tv or video games and such. but they don't fear the back of my hand.

[Bill McBlueState]

14. Really?

I see parents hitting their kids all the time at the grocery store, and there's no way social services are funded well enough to follow up on all of these cases.

Another observation: When these kids get hit, they typically start screaming and carrying on even louder, which makes me doubt that kids would behave better if hitting them were more acceptable.

[LisaL]

17. Yea really. All your kid has to do is to complain to someone

who can make a report.

[cali]

20. spanking children is not only ineffective, it's

damaging. And study after study after study, provides the evidence of this.

[LisaL]

23. Yea, is that why there are so many well behaved children nowdays?

:eyes:

[cali]

27. logic isn't your strong suit.

So the cause of ill behaved children is not enough spanking? Gee, think there could be other reasons? And sorry, genius, but most parents still say they spank. Hey, maybe they're just not hitting the little fucks hard enough. Yeah. That's it. Hit them harder. Sick.

[Bill McBlueState]

48. yeah, I'm going to stop paying attention to this thread

If I wanted a bunch of anecdotal musings about how society has magically gone to hell since 1965, I'd give my mom a call.

There's so much sloppy thinking on this forum.

[CoffeeCat]

39. That's disgusting!

Yeah, children aren't being HIT ENOUGH...that's why they don't behave!

Children who don't behave, are "acting out." Children haven't learned to
control their emotions yet, as adults have. So what comes out is what they
feel. Many children are angry. Many are lonely.

Don't you think that rampant materialism---which has bred a generation of
neglectful parents who work 80 hour weeks and have NO TIME for their kids--has
anything to do with it????

Parents used to raise their kids. Now, other people do it. And when the parents
are present with their kids--they're stressed and upset. Or worried about keeping
up with their credit-card payments, McMansion mortgages and three car payments.

We have latch-key kids now and children running around neighborhoods--unsupervised.

We didn't use to have as much of this. It's about our new lifestyle--materialism
is king and children are props.

That's why kids are having so many problems. They're paying the price because
too many selfish, stupid people are having kids.

We are breeding a generation of loney, angry children.

[raccoon]

73. "Parents used to raise their kids." Parents used to spank their kids a lot more too.

And spanking is, the vast majority of the time, more about the parent being pissed off than about anything the kid did or didn't do.

[seabeyond]

76. parenting by fear and that really doesnt work. eventually the kid is going to be immune to the fear

or just not afraid anymore. i feel much better to teach children to actually think thru, weigh consequences, desire to make good choices. that lasts forever

[raccoon]

82. I agree with you. Spanking is about the parent being pissed off more than anything else.

Good on you if you didn't spank your kids.

[ejpoeta]

95. i've found that spanking teaches kids that violence solves problems.

i tried spanking with my daughter a LONG time ago after a friend insisted that was how we had to get her to listen. all it did was apparently give her permission to hit people. that ended that. my favorite is when someone spanks a kid for hitting someone. comical in an insane oxymoronic kind of way.

[CoffeeCat]

33. What's so admirable about HITTING A CHILD?

Are we still that unenlightened as a society--that some people think that hitting a child
is some kind of magical disciplinary action?

It's an act of weakness. Most often, it's the parent losing control and taking out anger
and frustration on their child.

If a friend of mine frustrated me or if I was a manager who was angry at my workers for
screwing up---if i took my hand to them, I could get charged with assault and battery.

However, hitting a child is some kind of glorified action. It's even got a special
word, "spanking". How quaint.

"Discipline" means "to teach" and when you hit your kid--you teach them that they
violence is the answer and that their bodies are not their own--and that it's normal
for people who love each other--to hit each other.

For the love of Pete, can we just end this nonsense? I'm stunned that anyone would
advocate hitting a child.

[seabeyond]

49. other day i hear a kid screaming. was being yanked, had just been hit and mom spittin in kids face

you hit me.... it hurt, that is bad... after she hit the kid for hitting her to teach her not to hit.

that one just gets me.

[YOY]

53. There is a strong difference between abuse and a whap on the ass and you know it.

I have never known of anyone who gave their kid a seldom non-bruising whap in the butt for an appropriate indiscretion getting CPS knocking on their doors.

Of course you hear stories...but those stories are just that. Stories.

Time Out works better on my daughter. I have seen some kids that need a little stronger medicine than "Time Out."

[LisaL]

56. Not stories. All you kid has to do is to complain and CPS will be

knocking on your door.

[YOY]

57. Do you actually know anyone this has happened to?

Because I have "heard stories" as well...but don't actually know anyone this has happened to...not even terciarily.

Now police brutality? Corruption? Sexual slavery? A few other real issues?

I have some stories from me or close freinds, family.

[LisaL]

60. Yes I do.

[YOY]

63. Great. Let's hear it. Let's hear your story.

n/t

[LisaL]

66. It's actually very simple. The kid was spanked for bad behavior,

went to school, complained, CPS was contacted, parents investigated. There were no abuse so the kid remained in the home. However, the kid now knows the kid can do whatever the hell the kid wants to do.

[seabeyond]

69. did the kid pull down his pants and show a mark left on his tush or legs from the spanking?

cause otherwise, i cant see anything done.

[LisaL]

70. No the kid didn't pull down pants.

But teachers are mandatory reporters, and they are supposed to report every allegation.

[seabeyond]

74. and they never pulled pants down to check for bruising. ??? n/t

[LisaL]

75. Teachers are mandatory reporters. Did you know that?

[seabeyond]

78. and at a certain point the story is checked to see if there is any validity

dontcha know. it is not like these teachers, councilors, nurses, police and cps workers are all clueless to the child that plays them

dontcha know

[LisaL]

81. Yea well most people will not enjoy the process of checking.

[seabeyond]

84. who the fuck cares about "enjoyment". parenting isnt a bed of roses

not all perfect, not ideal... but

if cps needs to investigate, then they do. deal with it. parent up (off the man up, wink). it is the job

[YOY]

99. Who was the kid. Do you actually know them?

Or is the something you read in the paper once or a cousin's dog's uncle's thing?

[seabeyond]

58. let 'em knock lisal, firstly. secondly.... bullshit. third, what the fuck kind of parenting

results in actually having a child go to cps to tattle.

your whole post is stupid

[LisaL]

61. Oh you are clueless. The child doesn't go to CPS.

The child goes to his/her school and complains there. The school then makes a complain to CPS.

[seabeyond]

64. well... being the parent i am, lol, all the school and teachers and prinicipal knows me and what

kind of parent i am and would laaaaugh, if my kids dared to. so nope, not worried there either. BUT

IF cps were to come knocking on my door, i would open and welcome them in and cooperate and allow them to particpate as much as they like so they have the confidence that my child is well taken care of. the evidence hands down is there for anyone to see. not a single piece of evidence to state otherwise. plenty of people cps can talk to

no

i am not afraid

[LisaL]

79. Yea well that's what you think.

On the discovery channel show, "Dr. G." there was a program about CPS removing a kid from the home because of abuse. Turns out the kid fell and injured his head, and there was no abuse. But CPS still refused to return the child, his parents had to go to court to get him back.

[seabeyond]

83. there aer always exceptions, not a norm. be afraid, if you chose, then in raising the children

you will have excuses to not be a parent, but wont be your fault, will be the systems.

part of the parenting job, regardless of the obstacles,. ... even cps, do your damn job

[YOY]

104. Remember Seabeyond! In a republican world it's the exception that makes the rules!

Welfare being abused by a few scumbags? Cancel all wellfare!

Social Security not making money? Privatize it! (I haven't heard too much about this as of recent...gee I wonder why? :) )

CPS has a few idiots in a few offices working a few stupid cases? Get rid of CPS!

[Xithras]

101. And when CPS knocks on your door...

You hand them the business card for your attorney and kindly but firmly close the door in their face. You don't step out the door to talk to them, and you don't let them in your home. "I'm sorry, but since you're investigating on behalf of a government agency, you will need to first speak with my attorney."

CPS picks off low hanging fruit. They don't have the time or resources to pursue battle people with the resources and willingness to fight back unless there is already solid evidence of abuse. The CPS investigator will return to his/her office, create a note that they were refused entry, and forget about it.

[YOY]

106. Never even heard of them doing this to anyone I have ever know.

But good advice I suppose.

I highly suspect the stories of CPS screw-ups to be exadurated and overestimated. Although I don't doubt they exist...just in far fewer numbers than some would have us believe.

Rather like welfare fraud. It happens. It needs to be fixed...but you don't cancel the entire system because of a few bad apples.

[Xithras]

116. We had a situation at my sons elementary school many years ago.

The school hired a new nurse who was a bit overzealous about her mandatory reporting duties. Any time ANY child showed up at school with even a SINGLE bruise, she'd report it to CPS. In the nurses opinion, parents of children with bruises were either being directly abusive, or were being neglectful by permitting the kids to play in ways that caused bruising. According to our best estimate, in her first year she reported over 60 families to CPS, and the parents of the kids in the school became quite adept at dealing with CPS inquiries. The "card at the door" trick always worked. I was never reported and didn't have to deal with it myself, but several of my sons friends were reported as "abused"

The parents eventually leaned hard on the principal, and she mysteriously vanished from the school halfway through her second year there.

CPS is required to investigate all reports of abuse, no matter how trivial they may be. A single report of a bruise or one phone call, without any other evidence, usually isn't enough to trigger a serious investigation. If they aren't permitted to perform a home visit, and there isn't any evidence of real abuse happening, they'll almost always just log it and drop it. They won't push it until either a few more reports come in on the same family, or there is other evidence to support the allegation. They simply don't have the time, money, or manpower to get warrants and forcibly investigate every unsubstantiated abuse report. They barely have the resources to cover the substantiated ones most of the time.

[YOY]

124. Ah, but this is the exception to the rule and proves my point.

That we don't scrap the entire system thanks to one screw up and screw ups like this are few and far between.

Now knowing how to deal with the situation when a screw up (like that nurse who it seems was itching to pave the road to hell) is invaluable.

[Ilsa]

120. You have to teach a child your morals, Spanking just shows them

who has physical power: the bigger person.

[YOY]

125. I've seen some kids who need to know that. Not every kid or even a strong minority.

But a few kids (thankfully not my own) that "time outs" do not work for. I hardly think a non-frustrated and calm spanking (the non-bruising kind) or two is going to make them into any more of an abusive bastard than they are on the road to becoming.

[Ilsa]

146. Didn't say it would, just that there are other ways to teach that go beyond

timeouts. Timeouts don't work either if there isn't teaching, loss of privilege, and reconciliation involved.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

112. Hitting a child is

fucking wrong.

Period.

Tell me, do you have kids and if so, do you find that hitting them makes you feel better about yourself?

[Ilsa]

119. There are other ways to teach children besides spanking them, and there

are other punishments beside spanking. We use loss of privileges, which is essentially what happens in society when a person breaks the law.

[JerseygirlCT]

155. Perfect example of how the "good old days" were anything but

beating a child is not the way to teach them. And that's what discipline is - not physical punishment.

[patrice]

9. The cat's-out-of-the-bag: No one has any power over the kids and the first ones the kids figure

that out about would be their teachers is my bet.

The whole thing (family, schools, church, peers) is broken and each of the broken pieces makes the problems of the others worse (so each part can point at the others and blame them) and there isn't any un-doing that, nor getting what was previously thought to be "the good old days" back.

My guess is that kids are socialized too soon by some pretty weak elements, so they learn very intimately and instinctively how to triangulate like masters, before they ever (and even if they DON'T ever) develop functional motives of their own - so there's no center to how they work the system against itself, no center to anything.

[Marrah_G]

30. In Mass as soon as your child turns 16 you lose any right to control what happens in their lives

When my daughter turned 16 I could no longer stop an older guy from sleeping with her, giving her drugs, encouragin her to sneak around and break the rules and in the end she quit high school 1 month before graduation, she now supports him by emptying bed pans in a nursing home 60 hours a week. He is abusive and controlling.

But as the judge told me when the temp restraining order was over turned " I wish I could do something, but legally I can't".

The abuser got to smirk and laugh in our face on the way out of the courtroom.

Maybe someday she will wise up, come home, and get an education.

This is the same daughter who was so smart, so compassionate, who marched with me in DC.

I haven't seen her since August, 3 days before her 18th birthday because she ended up in the ER and they had to call me.

I get emails when she needs something, even those are now rare.

People are so quick to judge the parents.

Sometimes our best isn't good enough.

I'm hoping things end up better with her brothers.

[patrice]

36. Sorry!! We have some similar cases in my Family.

Environment is a HUGE factor - i.e. getting them away from what's fucking them up long enough to have a chance to get on their own feet - a rather difficult task in itself these days. One of my sisters (after years and years and years of struggle) got her daughter into rural Vermont, then she needed good teachers. Several years later now, things are better.

We have a couple of others who may or may not make it.

CNAs (in long-term care homes) are actually very important people - Angels to some. There are efforts a-foot to improve their working standards and professional relationships. If you get a chance to talk to her, you might suggest that she find one of these to work for http://www.ncbcapitalimpact.org/default.aspx?id=146

[Marrah_G]

67. Yeah

We did that the summer before her senior year. We sent her to live with her father and put her in counseling. it worked for a while but by the following spring she was back with him, lying, sneaking, and everything that went along with it. All with the blessings and encouragement of his dysfunctional mother. I am sure she is just glad he found someone else besides her to abuse and support him.

She was planning to be a HS teacher. She is now working for his mother at this nursing home. Not exactly a good long term situation.

sigh......all I can do is hope she figures it out before he kills her.

[seabeyond]

72. you know, at that point, the kid makes the choices, and experiences either the rewards or

repercussion.

gosh my borther just had a big to do with his 14 and 16 yr old. and there they sit for stupid, maybe effecting the rest of their life, for stupid. they ultimately make the choice adn they absolutely live with the consequences, good or bad

i have heard your story adn said i am sorry in the past. still feel your pain. her lesson to learn

[Marrah_G]

77. I know you have

~hug~

Yup her lesson to learn. You guys helped me come to grips with it when she first ran away.

All I can do is wait and leave the door open for her and hope she doesn't get to badly hurt.

The court system here is messed up on this topic though, which was what I was trying to say initially. Sometimes I end up venting more then intended.

[seabeyond]

80. you go girl, whatever you need

continually and constantly. you know, it is just everytime i hear it i want to just touch you in reassurance, so though it has been done, just reaching out a hand in acknowledgement to your pain, myself.

[Marrah_G]

88. Thanks Sea

DU is like an extended family. Always there for each other when push comes to shove.

[renate]

129. I am so sorry

She sounds like a lovely person at heart... I hope, and believe, that someone as sensitive and intelligent as she is will come back to her senses, and to you, soon. :hug:

[Ex Lurker]

148. that happened to the child of some friends

her brothers let the asshole know if anything happened to her they would kill him. They would have, too. Eventually he got tired of walking on eggshells and moved on.

[Fuzz]

10. Bill Hicks -Your Children Aren't Special

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA_XMaTYqSs


Warning: Language

[ShortnFiery]

11. Nice to hear that the late George Carlin's sentiments are finally getting a fair hearing.

;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIXlwYoOV9k

p.s. this one too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7LOCg4uKAg&feature=related

[No.23]

54. This one tops 'em all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izE4_Jd2dOw&feature=related

Sagest advice from George, re. parenting.

And in a similar vein:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo-QIY7ys-k&feature=related

RIP, George.

We miss you badly.

[Marrah_G]

16. Maybe not to others, but they are to me.

Not all teenage problem are the parents fault.

Good parents can have awful teens.

Bad parents can have terrific teens.

Sometimes no matter what a parent does, outside influences take over, at least for a while.

[CoffeeCat]

22. I can tell you some of that I've seen....

...out in the suburbs--where everything is supposed to be picture perfect.

Kids who are neglected, due to both parents working high-stress, highly paid jobs. Because families
want to live in McMansions--both parents work big careers. These parents are stressed and the kids
are often emotionally and physically neglected. Kids are dropped off at daycare at 7:00 a.m. and
picked up at 6:00. Many of these kids become "latchkey kids." I see lots of 10-year olds letting
themselves in alone after school and they're home alone until the parents return at 6:00.

Many of these latch-keyers hang out together after school. Is it a good idea when a ten year old hangs
out--without any parental supervision--with 15- and 16-year olds?

Stay-at-home moms who do everything (except stay at home). Oh, could I write a book! There are plenty of
good stay-at-home-moms out there, but there are quite a few who are neurotic as hell and they spend less
time with their kids than some of the working moms. They're all about the pedicures, shopping, facials
and coffee with the girls (disguised as playdates). I've never met a more vacuous demographic. They
want everyone to fawn over them because they're "raising their kids and not putting them in daycare" but
they're not parenting their kids. They stay at home, but they've got a bevy of nannies and babysitters
who take care of the kids while they're getting their toes painted. The kids are constantly told how lucky
they are because their mommy stays at home with them. However, the child feels empty and confused--because
they're lonely--because although mom is "at home" she's not "there."

The latch-keyers are some of the most angry kids I've seen; whereas the kids of the pseudo stay-at-homers are
some of the most neurotic I've seen. We're breeding a generation of really pissed up, very-upset kids.

Most parents are good parents. However--I'd say that 20 percent of dual-income earners are like this and 30 percent
of stay-at-home moms are like this.

That's my experience. Maybe some of you live in better neighborhoods.

[dysfunctional press]

26. parents are responsible for a MUCH larger part of their child's education than ANY teacher or school

well...they're SUPPOSED to be, anyway.

[2Design]

44. Palin was a good example of poor parenting n/t

[QC]

55. How dare you speak ill of my little Indigo Children!

Brytneigh, Meighan, and Dakota are the next stage in human evolution, so who are you to say they can't run amok in public?

[Leftist Agitator]

107. Lol.

:rofl:

I got into it on here with one of the idiots who believes in that nonsense a few months ago.

Talk about your goofy bullshit!

:crazy:

[Warren DeMontague]

141. You obviously don't run in circles with little kids, these days.

If you did, you'd know that their names are Aiden, Jaden, Kaden and Braden.

[seabeyond]

152. lol lol lol. so true except great niece kayden and sons friend cadon....

they really like to fuck with ya....

[QC]

169. My nephew named his kid Caden. I hate it. It sounds like a porn actor name.

Caden Steele, or Caden Long.

[Scout]

175. don't forget little Finleigh, and her brother Ryleigh n/t

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

193. lol...I've also heard Hayden too.

Jayden, Caiden, Hayden were all names of kids at my son's daycare.

[Warren DeMontague]

216. and I know who Zing Zing Zingbah is, too.

Although personally I'm partial to Humbah. No offense.

[SlingBlade]

59. It’s all about Priorities

Your children are as special as you make them. Parenting correctly is a very hard and time consuming
task that takes a lifetime. Throw that thought in with the fact that many of us have had either no role models of even terrible role models in which to learn from and parenting becomes almost an impossible task unless you are completely committed to it.

You cannot count on Teachers, Administrators, Coaches or Social Workers to be your co-parent since
they're agendas may be and probably are different from that of a parent. It is a huge job but as a parent that has raised kids and seen them grow into productive and caring human beings the reward is equal to the task.

Children ARE special, It's the parents who seem to be lacking x(

[seabeyond]

62. i think this is a lot of the problem. lack of knowledge in parenting

lack of good role model themselves. and i think this will only and continue to get worse and worse adn more children are raised by parents that are clueless

[No.23]

71. There is an old adage that states...

"we tend to parent in the same manner that we were parented".

While it's certainly not true for every case, I, personally, see evidence that it's true for most of us.

And speaking of adages, here's one that is unquestionably true:

"Children will do what you do, more than what you say."

Which directly speaks to the overriding influence that role modeling has in their lives.

[MorningGlow]

86. Oh gods I hope that's not true

My mother governed with an iron fist (abject terror, not physical violence) and had me scared of my own shadow for most of my formative years. I hope I'm not doing the same with my son. :scared:

[ejpoeta]

97. it's a conscious choice. one that my husband and i made when we had our daughter.

it was tough, though because we were raised with spankings and such things. bob worse than myself, of course. his parents did drugs and he had an awful childhood. as long as you make that CHOICE not to be that way with your kids, even though you may stumble sometimes but keep working toward that goal.... you are doing ok.

[SlingBlade]

133. Yes, But those of you that have done this

have to admit. It was all worth it. :)

It was worth it as I watched my daughter graduate from high school and then Collage
I was in seventh heaven

And when I gave her away at her wedding, Yea, It was worth it
And now ?

Now I have a beautiful little granddaughter, Yea, You bet

It was well worth it, I wouldn't change a thing :)

[ejpoeta]

178. and as a grandparent you get to spoil the grandkids. it is all worth it.

though, i must admit, as my kids are still young.... sometimes i wonder whose big idea was this!! LOL! man can they drive a person crazy. but to see that twinkle in their eye... the smile on their face.... that pride and confidence when emy finally figured out how to ride her bike. that is what it is all for. and someday when they are productive adults.... i'll long for the days when they were kids again.

[MorningGlow]

68. I disagree with the premise entirely

All children are special enough to HAVE discipline imposed upon them so they grow up to be decent human beings.

[Javaman]

87. Meh, that's why I didn't have kids. They aren't special.

:rofl:

[pnutbutr]

89. I'm in my hole without empathy

Kids today live in a video game TV obsessed world of frivolous nonsense. They rarely ever have to communicate face to face with anyone. Internet, cell phones, and all those gadgets let kids communicate without seeing anyone. This I think creates a social barrier for children. We've all seen the two kids walking down the street talking on cell phones or both with ear phones on stuck in their little isolation cell. Indirect communication causes an empathy problem with children. They fail to fully learn how to empathize with other people which makes then just stop caring about others and even themselves. Live for the moment, I'll never get in trouble sociopathic tendencies.

[MedleyMisty]

100. That would be why most of us under 30 voted for McCain, right?

Oh wait.

[pnutbutr]

105. That was just

some of them trying to make themselves feel better by latching on to liberal ideals which they will drop promptly after entering the real world because they will finally realize that they don't care about anyone but themselves.

[YOY]

113. or maybe you're just full of shit and they don't think that way at all?

Maybe they can seperate reality from fantasy just fine and you don't realize it.

"Damn you kids and your newfangled internets! In my day we stuck our tongue to electrical sockets to get that 'extreme' feeling AND WE LIKED IT!"

[pnutbutr]

115. Cool n all but

I wasn't talking about separating reality from fantasy. I was talking about interacting with people directly instead of through one of the many forms of digital communication.

[YOY]

118. Same thing to the point of Disaffection/Dissimulation.

n.t.

[krabigirl]

172. lol, exactly. (btw, I'm not young..I"m a 38 yo parent and I agree with you.)

[Warren DeMontague]

142. *

That thump you heard was someone's ass as they fell off their high horse. :rofl:

[8 track mind]

108. we had an incident here last weekend

of my neighbors kid getting shot with a pellet gun. The kid was simply walking down the street, stopped to pet a stray cat and was shot in the sternum, the BB going 1/4" into him. The shooter is a 17 year old kid that was sitting in his tree house in his back yard. The kid was fucking sniping people from the tree house. The kid parents pressed charges against the shooter, that was pretty much expected. The shooter's parents are coming over to the victim's house pretty much every day, trying to get them to drop the charges. I overheard the Mom say the following "well he's really not a bad kid, i'm sure he really didn't mean to shoot him!" while the shooter was standing right behind her, smoking a fucking cigarette. Pathetic.

[Gormy Cuss]

109. My oh my. Jack was wearing his cranky pants when he wrote that column.

I do agree with him here:

There are no perfect parents, perfect kids, perfect families -- only degrees of dysfunction.

You get up in the morning and do the best you can. At the end of the day you say, "Okay, that wasn't so bad, let's try it again tomorrow." Some of my instincts were pretty good and some of them were awful.

[madmom]

114. My biggest complaint here is blaming something (yet again) on

the boomers. I'm a boomer and my youngest is 25.How about blaming the Xer's? I saw this just yesterday in yes Walmart. Two boys about 7 to 10 were running (and I mean running, full out running) up one aisle and down the other chasing each other. Mom or dad no where in sight. Shortly there after I hear a female voice screaming "Tommy, Timmy where are you?" Never once stopping, just kept on walking and the kids kept on ignoring. My kids where NEVER allowed to act like that, period!

[PVnRT]

126. And who were the X'ers parenting role models?

[madmom]

132. Who were the boomer's parenting role models? Cuts both ways!

[PVnRT]

138. Ummmm, that would be their own parents

It doesn't "cut both ways," unless X'ers traveled back in time to be their own grandparents.

[madmom]

162. Ok you can blame the boomers for bad parenting role models for the Xers but

you can't blame their parents for bad role models for them. I am a boomer and the people I know were NOT afraid of their kids and they were expected to behave in public and respect their parents. The Xers I know (this includes my son and his wife) do not make their kids mind and they do not respect their parents. When my grand kids come over I'm always reminding them to Not interrupt when someone else is talking, do not get up from the dinner table if you are not finished eating and so on. This is NOT what my son was taught by me. He was never allowed to do this stuff. There's a whole other set of rules they are playing by now days.

[Deja Q]

136. Al and Kelly Bundy, Axle "Smelly" Rose, and that Ozzy Osbourne thing...

:yoiks:

[Seldona]

123. How can a parent 'impose' manners and limits

when the kids are in school? Quit their jobs and attend school with them? Telepathy?

[Fire1]

127. It's mighty strange our parents managed. n/t

[Seldona]

196. Really?

Name me a single time your PARENTS reprimanded you AT SCHOOL, as the op stupidly puts in the lap of parents. I am NOT talking about anything that happens in the home. If the op was, perhaps they should have said so. I quote.

'Parents' growing inability to impose manners and limits on their kids when the kids are in school is reflected in record dropout rates, as well as teen drug and alcohol abuse, teen sex, and unwed pregnancies.'

That is a cop out. Parents have NO CONTROL over a child's behavior when they are not around. Steps can be taken, warnings can be made, but ultimately the children are UNDER THE SCHOOL'S CONTROL while attending. Who the hell can argue that?

If a teacher has no interest in anything beyond passing along information, perhaps it is time for another career. That is NOT all that teaching entails.

[seabeyond]

197. you absolutely dont have control. to suggest the influence parents have on children, how they are

raised does not follow into the school and even behavior in school cannot be influenced by parent is total bullshit and a cop out by all parents who use it.

absolutely my children's behavior in school is indicative of what was taught at home and expectation of the child outside the home

[Scout]

205. i bet you have taught your children self-control and self-discipline

haven't you ;)

that is what too many parents don't seem to do anymore.

[seabeyond]

209. my son and i were talking about it tonight. the lack of integrity. the out of control

free for all....

how much damage and problems it is creating.

and throw in self respect.

gotta start with self

[Lydia Leftcoast]

128. The way my parents did it was to make it clear

that if we got punished in school, we'd get double at home. All three of us kids went K-12 without ever getting detention, nothing but the occasional verbal reprimand from a teacher.

One of my high school classmates pulled the school fire alarm as a prank. She was suspended---and her parents grounded her for a month: no parties, no shopping trips, no visits from friends, not even any phone calls, just go straight to school (once suspension was over) and come straight home afterwards.

That's the kind of reinforcement we got.

A retired schoolteacher once told me that when he first started teaching in the 1950s and had a difficult student, all he had to do was phone the parents and tell them that their son or daughter was being disruptive. The parents would apologize and assure the teacher that it would never happen again. And it didn't. By the time he retired, calls to the parents brought cries of "Why are you picking on my kid? If your class were more interesting, you wouldn't have discipline problems."

[Fire1]

131. Yeah, then when you don't call it's, "why wasn't I notified??"

[Seldona]

195. So you admit your parents didn't 'impose' anything on you at school.

Only a warning before, and double consequences after. My point EXACTLY.

Thanks!

[TCJ70]

217. Is that NOT imposing requirements on a child?

Sounds like an imposition to me.

[Deja Q]

135. Schools, as a part of society, should be imposing useless things like 'respect for elders'...

Mind you, modern media will product shows aimed at 25-and-under crowds where there is nobody over 30 -- unless that's the bad guy. x(

Empty, ageist garbage.

[Seldona]

194. Huh?

:shrug:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

145. Umm...if I got in trouble at school, I then got in trouble again at home

I don't know how that's so difficult.

The exception being, if anyone picked on me, I had permission to beat the crap out of them without worrying about getting in trouble at home.

[Deja Q]

134. Then tell people to boycott "Prolife America"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5314611

They start this "you are special" satanist crap. ( :sarcasm: )

[Ex Lurker]

137. Baby Boomers are grandparents now

these are the offspring of Gens X and Y.

[noamnety]

144. I've never been in a culture that despised kids like Americans do.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stan-goff/containment-and-diplomacy_b_35509.html

[kiva]

151. I think that much of the problem is our vaunted sense of

individualism. As a society we seem unwilling to make sacrifices, especially economic, to build the parks, fund schools on a nationally consistent basis, provide health care, etc. and seem to think that children should succeed within a Darwinian model. I do believe that this problem has increased over the past few decades, as people feel less connected to society and less inclined to tailor their individual actions to benefit the broader community.

At the same time (maybe as a result of the above) individual parents often take a 'my kid first' attitude--the "I'm only willing to pay for something that will benefit MY child/children." This extends to public behavior, assuming that the world should change to accommodate the needs and desires of their child.

[Hello_Kitty]

165. Um, actually it's entitled-acting parents most of us childfree folks can't stand

[Scout]

176. yup

it's not the kid's fault if they are a brat ... it's the parents.

all children are special, but no one child is more special than the others.

[Hello_Kitty]

170. And that article illustrates the entitlement mentality perfectly

"Waaah! People don't coo over me and my baby enough here! Waaah!"

[noamnety]

182. The point of the article

was that the things we take for granted about the public's reactions to children BEING in public ... that's not the way the rest of the world is.

It's considered unprofessional to interact with kids here - and not unprofessional in other parts of the world - regardless of whether the kids are behaving. You can see that when you walk into a restaurant or on an airplane in the US. Even when the kid is sound asleep and not causing any commotion at all, the initial reaction is often preemptive hostile glares, to let the parents know the child is not welcome just on principle.

That's not normal in the rest of the world.

[seabeyond]

185. not causing any commotion at all, the initial reaction is .....

often preemptive hostile glares, to let the parents know the child is not welcome just on principle.



exactly. you are exactly, right on.....

but we do that with other things too.

the smoker, can be 100 yrds away, not effecting a soul, minding own business, not even a whiff hitting the anti smoker, but a glare... a cough cough.... then another glare before chin goes up in the air with a fuck you. how dare the person even have to "see" the smoker

[Hello_Kitty]

188. You're exaggerating.

The only time most people even notice kids is if they're misbehaving. And that's what I think the real problem is. Somewhere along the line, a lot of you parents got the idea that society was supposed to genuflect before you because you performed the awesome feat known as breeding. Because you've been disappointed in your overblown expectations - though society does an awful lot to accomodate parents - you have decided that people "hate" children. And having lived in other countries I can tell you that maybe one of the reasons people interact more with them in public is because parents don't have that "how DARE you scold my child!" attitude in them that you find here. If a kid is acting up in public, ANY adult can rebuke them in many countries. That's how it used to be here before the 90s, when American parents collectively lost their goddamn minds and started treating their kids like fragile flower buds. Speaking of which, the hysteria over child predators has probably contributed as well. Kids are statistically far more likely to be victimized by a relative or trusted adult but the "stranger danger" meme persists.

[noamnety]

201. I don't think I am exaggerating.

It sounds from your post like you haven't raised kids in multiple countries so your experiences may not have put you in a position to recognize how different the cultures treat children. I was living abroad when my kid was born and raised her overseas for a few years. The other cultures were the only norms I knew as a parent. The differences when I came back here were stark and hard to miss.

When this article was posted on another blog, one of the comments was from a woman, Peggy, who had also lived abroad with her child. She wrote: "When my second baby was a baby, I was an impecunious assistant lecturer at a small liberal arts college in rural New York State. I took my baby with me to work and nursed him while I was teaching class. To me it was no big deal, just a matter of practicality, and the students appeared to accept the presence of my baby, and my nursing him as I lectured, in the same spirit. But my doing this caused a bit of a stir, pro and con, among some faculty members. One young female faculty member invited me to lecture at her class, with baby welcome. Evidently it was not what I had to say during the lecture, but the fact that I nursed my baby while lecturing, that interested her and the students."

[Hello_Kitty]

202. I don't even understand the point Peggy is making there.

The article is by a woman whining that people aren't interested enough in her amazing progeny in America. Here, you have Peggy who apparently was a source of interest due to her activity with her baby.

Speaking of which, while I generally have no problem with women breastfeeding in public...standing in front of a class giving a lecture? :wtf: That's the kind of attention-seeking crap that causes breastfeeding bans. Just saying.

[noamnety]

211. I'm not surprised you don't understand Peggy's point

I remember seeing a blog post about american attitudes toward breastfeeding a while back. There was a postcard with a woman in Africa (if I remember right), and she was nursing a child, breast fully exposed (no blanket demurely placed over it). The woman - and another next to her - were weaving baskets. The question posed by the blog was "what was the caption on the back of the postcard?"

When you clicked it, you saw the actual caption on the flip side of the card. It said something like: two women at work making baskets.

[Hello_Kitty]

212. This isn't Africa. eom

[noamnety]

213. Odd comment, that.

Meaning what about the difference between american women and african women?

[Hello_Kitty]

214. No, rocket scientist, it's a difference in cultures.

Some cultures are comfortable with exposed breasts in public and some are not. We are in one of the latter ones.

[noamnety]

215. Hmmm. A difference in cultures.

That's a big part of what I was getting at, no?

[Deja Q]

192. Ironic. Our media caters to them 9 times out of 8.

It's like anybody over 40 doesn't exist unless it's for insurance or incontinence underwear.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

204. Actually, I think kids get too much leeway

I've encountered way too many screaming kids out and about.

[rucky]

160. Except dropout rates have declined...

Trends

Dropout rates of young people ages 16 to 24 in the civilian, non-institutionalized population gradually declined between 1972 and 2005, from 15 percent to a low of 9 in 2005. (See Table 2) In this indicator, dropouts are defined as individuals ages 16 to 24 who are not enrolled in and have not completed high school. In 1972, the dropout rate among non-Hispanic blacks was 21 percent, 12 percent among non-Hispanic whites, and 34 percent for Hispanic youth. These rates have since declined substantially for each group.

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/indicators/1HighSchoolDropout.cfm

So Cafferty's observations basically amount to "Kids these days..."

[seabeyond]

161. i heard they have sharply increased. will check out your site. n/t

[kiva]

184. It sounds as though this number is very flexible, depending

on who is trying to make a point.

United States High School Graduation Rates and Chicago Public Schools Graduation Rates
During his campaign, Barack Obama alleged that only 70% of high school students graduate with a diploma. This astonished me so I dug further.
**snip**
One of the frustrations of researching this topic is the lack of a consensus as to what the true high school graduation rate is. If we don’t even know how many people we’re not educating, how in the world can we be expected to educate them?
Higheredinfo.org asserts that the public high school graduation rate was 68.8% in 2005. A study published by the Manhattan Institute which concluded that the national graduation rate for the class of 1998 was 71%. For white students the rate was 78%, while it was 56% for African-American students and 54% for Latino students.
**snip**
So, I went to the website for the United States Department of Education’s National Center for Education Statistics and found this: “In 2005, some 86 percent of all 25- to 29-year-olds had received a high school diploma or equivalency certificate, and 57 percent of these young adults had received additional education. Although this percentage represents an increase of 8 percentage points since 1971, the high school completion rate has been at least 85 percent since 1976.”

http://newsburglar.com/2008/06/06/united-states-high-school-graduation-rates-and-chicago-public-schools/

[lightningandsnow]

164. Oh no! TEEN SEX?

Um, yeah. Teens have sex, get over it. Always have, always will.

Also, my parents can totally control if I'm sexually active or not. :sarcasm:

Yes, I know, people should be safe and responsible and all. But sex in itself is not the evil.

[krabigirl]

171. seriously. wtf.

[Warren DeMontague]

174. And Lord knows we never drank or smoked pot, either.

Oh, wait, we did.

[Le Taz Hot]

181. This has no better demonstration

than at a school concert. When I was in school and there was a school concert people attended the ENTIRE concert. I went to a school concert a couple of years ago and as soon as one group performed, the parents of the kids in that group stood up and left! Oh, and not only did they leave they TALKED on the way out so the next performing group performed to a significant part of the audience's back. This went on until the last group in which only the parents/relatives/friends of the last group were left in the audience. No amount of reminding from the Principle to turn off you cell phones and stay for the entire concert had any affect. Rude kids? Look at the parents!

[L0oniX]

183. Parrents, kids, school, tv ...I blame them all. Having kids and being a parrent is over rated.

[seabeyond]

186. nu uh.... really, it is the best. such a journey... for ME

(especially since i didnt think i would have kids and that was fine) for me, i would have it no other way.

just to stick up for kids, cause what a fuckin thing to say

[L0oniX]

187. What? Is this a parrents only blog and everyone else can't decide to not have kids?

Jeeze ...get a life.

[seabeyond]

198. Having kids and being a parrent is over rated.

jeeeze... blatant statement without any qualifiers such as, for you....Having kids and being a parrent is over rated.

if you are going to make a statement for all.... then some of us will disagree with you

jeeeeze

[L0oniX]

200. I wasn't making a statement for all ...it's my opinion! People here just have to attack...

those that don't just go along with the crowd. It's like being in high school again. Some people never leave it behind.

[seabeyond]

210. surely one can argue an "opinion" without it being an attack

maybe, you ought not to take internet so personally

you gave your opinion. i gave mine.

simple....

you say children are over rated. i say.... not in my opinion. now... where is the harm?

[walldude]

191. Yes the world is fucking ending because Cafferty saw some kid

stick mashed potatoes up his nose. :eyes: Gimme a break. Fucking whiners.

[carlyhippy]

199. I don't usually agree with Mr. Jack...but I do on this one

I raised my kids the best I could, and I was called everything from a "helicopter parent", to "overpowering" to "strict" by parents, and most of the time those same parents' kids ended up in trouble or dropping out of school.

I was strict, they went out to eat with us from the time they were a couple of months, and they knew how to act as soon as they were able to understand.

We sat in McDonalds one afternoon, and a woman with 2 kids (girl around 12 and boy around 10) sat next to us. The mother brought the kids their food, and the girl immediately went into a rage because her mother forgot to hold the mayo on her sandwich. The girl physically slapped her mom in the face! The mom was visably embarassed, looked at us then put her head down and said nothing. My kids' jaws dropped to the floor, just sat there shocked staring at this family. I said under my breath, "aww HELL NO, heaven help that child if I was her mother"

I am all for kids being kids, but there are times and places where kids don't need to act up and they need to know common courtesy and manners. I live in an area where youth hockey is big, and those young boys are allowed to act like animals at hotels at tournaments and at the arenas,the rowdier the better, never mind other people are trying to watch hockey games or sleep quietly in hotel rooms.

[Hello_Kitty]

203. Slapped her in the face???

Let me guess...she's got one of those trendy oppositional defiance disorders. :eyes: I bet dollars to donuts that's what the mother would say if you asked her about it.

[carlyhippy]

206. she would probably say just that....the poor thing bless her heart....

the look on that mom's face, of both embarassment and shame, was hard not to notice. That girl was more than old enough to know better, a tired toddler I could better understand, but this kid was waaay too old to throw a fit like that.

[Hello_Kitty]

207. I can't even fathom it.

It wouldn't occur to me in a million years to hit either of my parents. And there's no way in hell they'd be fetching my food for me at McDonalds!

[buckshotdad1960]

208. Wake up fool!

Their suppose to be dumb and out of control! How else would the prison system and suporting agencies get to be the biggest money maker in the land?

Now do you want to talk about what your government is up to?