These AIG employees who thought they "earned" their bonuses

[supernova]

need to come forward and justify their

1) Total lack of on-the-job competence

2) Their tremendous greed.

We also need a discussion about why those contracts were so sacrosanct and other employment contracts are not. If that's the case, I want the contract that the AIG employees used.

[KharmaTrain]

1. Just Doing Their Yob Man...

Let's see what the terms of their contracts were...not just the compensation, but the responsibilities. These people were paid to move the money and surely the more they moved, the more value they were to the company and thus why they were hired.

Just like a sports team (and yes, I hate this analogy, but it fits) players are paid the same no matter if the team wins 100 games or loses as many. It's not their fault they were doing what they were contracted to do and the market went to hell...or that those above them continued to tell them to do their jobs. Yes, a cop out, but we've heard this excuse used in the past and I'm sure we'll hear this today.

[supernova]

8. I'l like to see those contracts too

Especially since I grew up with the idea that anyone in the company was expendable.

Re: sports analogies: I'm wondering if we don't need a refresher on the the word "bonus". I thought the word "bonus" applied to extra performance, and resulted in extra performance, value for the company? If you are just doing your job, well, that would be a salary. If these employees say they were owed the remainder of their salary. I might. MIGHT agree. But, a "bonus"

It's my understanding that bonuses are paid to athletes, if they win say championships for example, not for showing up for practice on time on Monday morning.

[KharmaTrain]

35. Front Loaded Deals...

Look at how many kids come out of college...never played a moment of pro ball and get millions in what are called "signing bonuses". Some of these kids will bust out and never play on the pro level, but the money is guaranteed nonetheless. Then there are other "perks" worked into deal such as no-trade clauses and options allowing the contract to be bought out, but usually at a steep price.

Now there are performance bonuses, but that isn't what was promised to AIG here. These were "retention bonuses"...more or less a front-loaded deal to stay with the team. We still haven't found out about other bonuses...that's another ticking time bomb.

[Winterblues]

17. So if a top receiver drops four passes and they lose the game

Someone isn't going to suggest it is his fault and if it happened more than one game what would be the odds he would be up for a trade or just let go? I suspect there were quite a few dropped passes at AIG and those that did the dropping get million dollar bonus'. Doesn't quite fit...

[KharmaTrain]

31. Not If He's Got A Good Agent...

Look at how many teams will sign a "superstar" who doesn't work, but they still play him cause they're paying him the big bucks. Let's use a pitcher...he gets shelled and loses his ass, but the manager keeps running him out there cause there's too much money on the line. The contract stipulates the player must get a certain number of starts or works out a front-loaded deal where money is defered thus making bigger payments in the future. Try and let someone with this kind of deal go. You're still gonna have to pay 'em, and if you try to trade, good chance you're gonna have to pick up the salary on the new team. Contract law, especially at these levels and with this much money surely have a lot of similar stipulations and why Geitner first balked. I'm in Chicago, I can give you a laundry list of failed players who ended up getting nice paychecks for either not playing or after they went to another team.

[CJCRANE]

2. It's like

9/11 all over again. The people who f***ed up get rewarded. It's the "new normal".

[chimpymustgo]

4. And the people must ask: are they really f***ing up? Or is it a "controlled demolition?"

[supernova]

28. Controlled demolition?

If that's true, what's the point?

Whose interest does it serve if a company, which has its fingers in everybody's pies across the world's financial system, goes up in smoke?

[peacetalksforall]

3. Criminal experts rose through crime and fell and the damage is colossal..

The same people who want to destroy the unions and call them criminal.
The same people who smear all the people who bought into the sub-prime mortgage criminal hype.
The same people who spent the people's fortune on salaries and bonuses for their employees who they call geniuses and deserving.

All: the mafia, ceo-so called geniuses, their players, and federal schemer-owners of our destinies under their crimes.

Oh that's right - they say it was all legal.

The author-constructionists of the Constitution can be applauded for their wisdom in structuring our government. The Federal Reserve crime constructionists weren't part of the plan and we've been had. We've been had with the government employees and the powers who are and who misuse their fed powers.

I just hope that all those people who give us that bull about the U.S. being the greatest nation on the earth SHUT UP.

Only the non-players in this crime of two centuries are safe from the disgrace.

[el_bryanto]

5. Is there a place where one can go and review what they were contracted to do?

Or what performance these bonuses were actually paid for?

Bryant

[supernova]

11. I'd like to know that too

And if not, why are they so super secret CIA private?

[el_bryanto]

14. That's the thing - Conservatives write about these bonuses as if they were

going to working glass or middle class employees, sales incentives and the like, in which case I'd be fine with employees getting them.

We assume that they are going to executive types, as part of a standard compensation package that showers money on failures, in which case I'd rather they didn't.

Bryant

[supernova]

19. And that's the problem

We just don't know.

If you are a private company, you are entitled to keep your books private.

If you are a company who is accepting taxpayer help, you need to be publicly accountable for ALL the money you use. I don't think the expectation should be to receive public help and then to expect the same level of organizational privacy. The public purse does not have the same expectations as a private one.

[TahitiNut]

6. "The Ends Justify The Means" ... and THAT'S how they were compensated.

The abysmal failure to comprehend this widespread ethical corruption in our economy is at the root of the anger. In effect, we're angry at ourselves since this is ALL very foreseeable. 'Moral Hazard' became a quaint, out-dated notion over twenty years ago. (I know, I ran into it in a career-limiting way.)

[supernova]

13. I can see this

I'm pretty sure I've been passed over for promotion at least once because of an unwillingness to sell my soul to the company store.

I like being able to face myself in the mirror.

[TahitiNut]

25. Remember, the euphemism is "results-oriented."

That can often be a harbinger of something that should cause an ethical person to run screaming.

[RB TexLa]

7. Some did earn their bonus by running or being part of and contributing to the success of profitable

divisions of AIG.

[Binka]

9. WRONG! If A Company Is Insolvent NOBODY Deserves A Bonus

Fuck their division. The company ran aground. NO BONUS. NONE! WTF are you doing supporting anyone from AIG getting any more cash? Really. That just SUCKS.

[dysfunctional press]

20. not all bonuses are based on company performance.

if a person's employment contract calls for them to get a base bonus of 50K(arbitrary number) for every year of employment, with incentive bonuses on top of that which are tied to company performance, and they've been with the company for 20 years- why aren't they entitled to the base part of their bonus?

[supernova]

29. Because many people simply get laid off

they don't get base bonuses, nor anything else.

They just get let go.

Some pigs are more equal than others.

And that's the problem.

[dysfunctional press]

30. and...?

that's the way the business world works...and the people playing know that going in.
but that really doesn't answer the question, now does it?

[supernova]

32. I consider it morally decrepit

You may not, but I do.

[dysfunctional press]

36. there are plenty of things about our economic system that are morally decrepit...

why should this one be treated so much differently with all this overblown outrage over one company's compensation structure, when they ALL do it pretty much the same way..? :shrug:

answer: the corporcrats are trying to bring down obama's approval rating.

[supernova]

39. Oh so, that's just the way it is, we'd better not fix anything?

Wow, how depressing of you.

[dysfunctional press]

40. i have no problem with fixing things going forward...

but how is it fair to take back money that people have rightfully earned?

[supernova]

10. You forgot the sarcasm tag

This was a company-wide failure. Even if there were people who did their work, possibly there were, there was no extra money for bonuses. They ought not to be so ethically challenged they can't see that.

[RB TexLa]

16. Hardly a company-wide failure. There are profitable divisions of AIG

American General, 21st Century and most all of their other P&C business is profitable. Funny you make up a lie about everyone at an entity failing and then challenge other's "ethics."

[supernova]

18. And where's your proof that the $73 mil

went to people in these profitable divisions?

If they exist we should be hearing about them, don't you think? It would be excellent PR for AIG.

[RB TexLa]

21. I don't know what bonuses when to whom, all I said was some employees did earn their bonuses

And you chose to make up lies to challenge that. I didn't say all the bonuses were rightfully earned or should be paid. But what would that matter to you, you can just make up a lie about what I said.

[supernova]

26. I'm saying we don't know, and we should

There is no making up lies about that.

edit: By "we" I mean the American public. AIG should be publicly accounting for the money they use, just as all who took TARP money should. The fact that they aren't is part of the problem.

[dysfunctional press]

42. that's not exactly how you phrased things in your op.

you certainly seemed like like you were certain that they didn't desrve them.

[dysfunctional press]

23. where's your proof that it didn't?

the corporate media is trying to fan the flames of people's uninformed outrage to bring down obama's approval rating.

and it's working...even here.

[supernova]

24. I in no way connect AIGs fun with accounting to Obama

I certainly don't blame him for this colossal fuckup.

[dysfunctional press]

33. but that's what the media-created outrage over the bonus issue is all about...

and those that help them fuel the fire are playing right along.

[supernova]

34. I know that

but I'm not in play along mode.

Unless you want another AIG in another few years. And we may not be done.

You see, I always thought the idea of life was to not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. :silly: silly me.

[dysfunctional press]

37. if you're starting threads about the aig bonus issue that help fan the flames...

then yes, you are 'playing along', despite what mode you think you may or may not be in.

[supernova]

38. Then ignore my thread if it bothers you so much

I'm not playing in the "it hurts Obama" sandbox.

He's a big boy, he can take care of himself on this issue.

[dysfunctional press]

41. if everyone just ignored the things that are not right- the world would be even worse off...

so...no.

[Junkdrawer]

22. AIG had $400 million in bonuses. The CDS group had $173 million of that...

It's the $173 that is under discussion....

[islandmkl]

12. concerning the 'sports' analogies:

...constantly getting thrown out at second base because you try to steal without the 'steal sign' will get your ass shipped off (regardless of contract)...

...swing at high-and-outside pitches for strikes constantly, and welcome back to Class A...

...throw four interceptions in a row and let me know how your quarterback status is holding up...

...launch 3-pointers from somewhere around mid-court with 15 seconds still on the shot clock...and find that seat on the bench...

yeah, all the contracts will be honored (except the NFL can get rid of you on a weekly basis)...but say goodbye to the bonus...

nobody, NOBODY (well, except maybe T.Owens) gets paid for being the primary cause of a team's failure...the 'win/lose 100 games - makes no difference' sounds like it makes sense, until you look at any sports team...very few teams remain 'static' with their losing players....

[supernova]

15. You made that point better than I did

:thumbsup:

[TahitiNut]

27. That's easy to 'cure' ... just buy the umpires.

:shrug: