Alabama mass murderer described as "quiet", "fascinated with guns"

[Uzybone]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/us/12alabama.html?_r=1


snip

He first killed his mother and the family dogs in Kinston, Ala., the authorities said, then drove 10 miles to Samson, where he shot five members of his extended family, including the uncle who had raised him. Next, his violence became random, as he sprayed bullets at cars, stores and police officers, killing neighbors, a man walking down the street, a woman at a convenience store and a passing motorist, they said.

Gary McAliley, the district attorney for Pike and Coffee Counties, which includes Kinston, said witnesses had seen Mr. McLendon become upset with his family ever since his parents divorced. Recently, he had refused to go to a relative’s funeral, Mr. McAliley said, telling a co-worker that the rest of the family had not been supportive to him and his mother.

He had also aggressively tried to get a family Bible, but recently received a letter from a lawyer representing another family member telling him to back off. “He was excessively upset about that,” Mr. McAliley said.

Mr. McLendon was described by those who knew him as a quiet, shy man who had few friends and stayed out of trouble. He had a lifelong fascination with guns, said Cecil Knowles, a classmate and Tom Knowles’s son, and got his first hunting rifle at age 11. Co-workers called him “doughboy,” Mr. McAliley said.

“Everywhere that he went that he could tote a gun, he would,” Mr. Knowles said. On Tuesday he was armed with a handgun, two assault rifles and a shotgun.

In 2003, he tried to become a police officer in Samson. He passed the necessary background check but failed basic training. “He didn’t make it past the first day,” said Becky Payne, an assistant to the director of the Alabama Advanced Criminal Justice Academy.


No one considered it unusual that Mr. McLendon collected guns, Mr. King said. “People here hunt a lot,” he said. “They collect a lot of guns. I’ve got probably 30 guns. It’s just kind of a hobby. That part of it wasn’t concerning to me.”

[LeftyMom]

1. A winning combination. nt

[DFW]

2. "That part of it wasn’t concerning to me.”

People who have 30 working firearms in their homes are VERY concerning to me. That's not a hobby. That's an obsession.

[DrCory]

4. Does Your Concern...

extend to any hobby, or just gun collecting? I would imagine many coin and stamp collectors routinely possess more than 30 items. Are you concerned about their state of mind as well?

[LeftyMom]

7. I've never heard of a deranged coin collector killing somebody with their amassed silver dollars.

:shrug:

[DrCory]

11. That Isn't the Point

If discussing gun-collecting in the context of a hobby, the number or amount is irrelevant.

Are coin collectors who possess more than 30 coins considered obsessed?

[TWiley]

37. But it IS the point young cub. Now go back to your comic books.

[tangent90]

38. You're rather a snide little

...

[TWiley]

46. What is a snide?

[tangent90]

50. Adjective

:rofl:

[TWiley]

53. You are a rather snug

eh eh eh

[tangent90]

55. As a bug in a rug, watching it snow!

or did you mean smug?
:rofl:

[TWiley]

64. Snug is actually a good word. It means good things

check it out at dictionary.com sometime.

Where is it snowing?

[DrCory]

61. Hmmmm....

Judging from your statement, I'm guessing you don't understand context? Rather shocking if not, but...

[ggould1]

109. It's not a hobby when you have loads of ammunition to go with them.

If the guy had been a real collector, he wouldn't have had all the ammo that the collection required to kill people with. There is a difference.

[Zomby Woof]

33. Hahaha!

Hey, those coin rolls can HURT! x(

[TWiley]

36. LMAO ! You are so right-on !

oh wait, one of them will soon whip out the pencil analogy <quivers in fear>

[DFW]

16. Only if they are coins and stamps that any kid can kill his schoolmates with

I don't even care about collectors of vintage guns, as long as they are not operable
with ammunition available anywhere. But if some neighbor of mine has 30 firearms that
work with ammunition that can be bought by anybody at any gun shop, you bet I'm concerned.
I can shoot and know how to use a gun. I just don't need 30 of them to do it. Collectors
of vintage cars don't drive them all to the office and back either.

[DrCory]

19. In regard to safe storage...

Your concern is legitimate. There is, in the collecting field, a strong movement toward safe storage. If for no other reason, it makes sense from a monetary value perspective. Why would I lean a $1000 rifle in the back corner of a closet?

[benEzra]

20. There are few antique guns not operable using readily available ammunition.

You can go to any local gun shop and buy ammunition for the military-style Brown Bess musket that your great-great-great-great-great grandfather fought the British with in the war for independence. And the majority of extant older guns that use fixed ammunition (1850's and newer) use more or less standard calibers.

If properly maintained, a gun will remain fully functional for a thousand years, though ammunition will have to be rotated. Our family's oldest gun is 104 years old this year, and I shoot it regularly.

[DFW]

28. The next time I hear of a school shooting with a Brown Bess, I'll concede the point

And I used to collect Civil War bullets at the Gettysburg site. If there's a rifle available
at any gun shop that uses that stuff, I've never seen it. Some friends of mine auctioned off
the sword Lee presented to Grant when he surrendered at Appomattox. I rather doubt anyone will
be using it in any fencing matches. But even the most ardent supporter of the NRA has to admit
that there has yet to be a homicide in the USA with a muzzle-loading 18th century rifle in
recent times.

I don't own a gun any more, but if they serve a useful purpose, are properly maintained, and
inaccessible to anyone people who have no business having access to them, I have nothing against
anyone owning one or even a few, or even two hundred of them if they form part of a meaningful
historical collection. All this defensive riposting is deliberately distracting from my point and
deviating from the subject at hand. The question is not whether someone is wrong to want a Winchester
One-In-A-Thousand hanging on his wall. The question is why someone would need thirty different fully
functional and historically insignificant firearms around his residence. This is life imitating William
Daniels in "The President's Analyst," and taking it to extremes. I know of Freeper-types who, in their
deranged minds, expect the Taliban to show up on their front lawnany second now (which must be why they
don't volunteer for the military), and have a few dozen guns around the house, but even they haven't
gone on the rampage (yet, anyway), but they are neither progressive thinkers nor rational.

A true coin collector might have 1 or 2 1895-P silver dollars. He does not have 30 of them,
and at any rate can't kill people with them unless he's Sandy Koufax.

[benEzra]

45. How does owning 30 firearms make someone more dangerous than owning 2? (n/t)

[Threedifferentones]

48. Hey now

We wouldn't want logic to enter our discussion of "obsessed gun nuts." Everyone knows that collecting 30 of something is fine, unless it is guns in which case you are an OBSESSED LUNATIC MASS MURDERER.

How many guns does it take to become a mass murderer? Well, zero, really, if you're creative, but generally one or two.

[TWiley]

116. There are mass murders who poison

Recently, there have been the "angel of death" types that kill nursing home / hospital patients. I am sure they did not use a gun, but some other process.

[TWiley]

115. The shooter in the article ....

The shooter was said to have at least two assault weapons, a hand gun, and a shotgun with hundreds of rounds. This would be more dangerous than one gun and one bullet would it not?

Reducto ad absurdum

[benEzra]

118. Ummm, the discussion was about the good-guy neighbor who owned 30 guns

and someone was freaked out by the number 30, as if 30 guns could be misused by one person more easily than 2 guns could.

The maximum number of guns one person can use at one time is 2, unless your name is Shiva, and you can use only one at a time effectively. If you are more fearful of a neighbor who owns 30 guns than if the same person owned 2 or 4, it's not because of any increased capabilities.

The shooter was said to have at least two assault weapons, a hand gun, and a shotgun with hundreds of rounds.

Which is a very unremarkable collection (particularly since one of the rifles, the SKS, was a 50-year-old antique, and the other was the most popular civilian rifle in America).

Merely owning hundreds of rounds is not remarkable; .22LR comes in 500-round boxes at Wal-Mart, and Winchester 9mm target ammo sells in 100-round boxes. Regarding centerfire rifle ammunition, a lot of people (including my wife and I) try to buy it by the half-case or case (600 or 1200 rounds) because it is way cheaper that way. A single range trip will usually consume 200-300 rounds between us, so paying markup on 20 rounds at a time is for those wealthier than we are.

What made this loser different from 20 million other people were his narcissism and sociopathy, and what he DID with the guns he owned. And the fact that he had been kicked out of both the Marines and a police force.

This would be more dangerous than one gun and one bullet would it not?

Why? Are you proposing to limit gun owners to 1 gun and 1 cartridge per household?

The danger pertains more to who owns it than what they own, IMO. The D.C. beltway shooters fired 1 shot per day from a single small-caliber rifle, and every shot they made was one hundred percent within the capability of a 1750's Brown Bess musket, never mind a 1770's rifle. The only way to make guns not dangerous in the wrong hands is to wave your magic wand and make them go POOF! and vanish. Banning handgrips that stick out or muzzles that aren't smooth doesn't do a darn thing.

[TWiley]

120. no, I was just trying to extract your view

I was just trying to see if you felt that someone with 30 guns and thousands of rounds of ammo were a greater "threat" than a person with one gun and one bullet.

Got an answer?

[DrCory]

70. Your "Conditions"...

Are irrelevant personal opinion. The RKBA is a right enumerated in the Constitution and places no such restrictions on the number, or purpose, of firearms owned.

"The question is why someone would need thirty different fully functional and historically insignificant firearms around his residence."

Sorry, but "need" has nothing to do with it. Are you attempting to argue that "want" is a question worthy of discussion?

"...but they are neither progressive thinkers nor rational"

Nor need they be to enjoy rights enumerated in the Constitution. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that rights such as those guaranteed by the second amendment should only apply to those who are judged as properly "progressive" and "rational".

"A true coin collector might have 1 or 2 1895-P silver dollars. He does not have 30 of them..."

Is this an established fact? If so, please provide a source.

[slackmaster]

87. Someone who has a whole roll of 1895-P silver dollars is more of an investor than a collector

So is someone who owns seven Swedish Mausers, five Mosin-Nagants, etc. But strictly speaking, both people can properly be called collectors.

;-)

[ggould1]

108. No because a collection of coins is unlikely to mean you plan to use them as weapons

[quickesst]

110. You should be aware....

..that on a few topics, guns being one, logic does not hold any really high value here, with some exceptions. Ignorance is easier, especially when it benefits the gun-grabbers simple ideology. Thanks.
quickesst

On edit: I know a hundred people who have ten, twenty, thirty guns, and more. I am no more concerned about these hunter/collectors as I am a stamp collector living a thousand miles from my home.

[Raskolnik]

21. Um, 30 is not that many.

People collect all kinds of things, and I think you would be surprised how many people have 20, 30, or even more working firearms in their homes, and never hurt a soul.

[slackmaster]

32. I have over 50 of them in my home

It's not an obsession, it's an investment that has outperformed stocks, bonds, and precious metals for the last couple of years.

:hi:

[Fumesucker]

3. Got his first hunting rifle at age 11..

We were told on here the other day that men who hunt and fish don't kill people other than in self defense.

We are also told that "law abiding adults" don't kill except in self defense.. This guy had no record, he was a "law abiding adult".

Clearly, at least in this one instance, that is not the case.

Getting out the :popcorn:

And the thing is, I'm not even anti-gun, check my posts, I almost never weigh in on these kinds of thread, it's just not that much of an issue for me.

[DrCory]

5. Are You Suggesting...

That all owners of firearms exist in a state of pre-crime?

[TWiley]

8. Does the NRA teach its students to immediately broaden every argument to include "all"

Sure seems like it. "All" gun enthusiast on this board immediatly take every defensive comment to "all".

By the way, if you think logically for a moment, then all newborn criminals are in a state of pre-crime. In fact, that is what certain elements of the Christian faith say as well. Now every gun criminal had his first incident didn't he?

Buttt, to address your concern more directly doctah, I do not believe than anyone anywhere on this board has ever even implied that "all owners of firearms exist in a state of pre-crime".

As far as strawman arguments go, that is a pretty bad one.

[DrCory]

10. Sorry

But, that is the essence of these statements:

"We were told on here the other day that men who hunt and fish don't kill people other than in self defense.

We are also told that "law abiding adults" don't kill except in self defense.. This guy had no record, he was a "law abiding adult"

In the first place you will notice the OP did not quantify "law abiding adults". Without doing so, "all" is generally assumed. If "all" is not the intent, why fail to quantify?

Secondly, made no distinction between the shooter and other gun-owners. In fact, by describing both as "law abiding adults" (at one time in the case of the shooter) he is inferring a similarity.

It's all in the wording my friend.

"I do not believe than anyone anywhere on this board has ever even implied that "all owners of firearms exist in a state of pre-crime".

Actually, yes, it has. In a thread of your own creation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x204223

"15. actually, all PEOPLE could be considered to be existing in a state of pre-crime
as any person is capable of any heinous act, given the right circumstances.

all criminals started out as law abiding, didn't they?

A statement with which you heartily agreed:

"22. Thank you ..... that was my point
More than one person in this world has never committed an act of gun violence before their first murder.

"All people" certainly does include all gun owners. The only logical conclusion that can be drawn from this discourse is that all humans are potential murders who cannot be trusted with firearms.

Why don't you take ownership of that?

"Does the NRA teach its students to immediately broaden every argument to include "all"

As I am not a member of the NRA, it is you who are fashioning piles of straw into human form.

[ProfessorGAC]

13. How's Life In Two Dimensions?

Let us know when you start understanding the concept of depth.
GAC

[DrCory]

15. Why Don't You Let Us Know...

When you begin to grasp the concept of saying what one means, rather than resorting to obfuscation demonstrated by the posters in question.

Being the kind soul that you obviously are, perhaps you might explain what you seem to think I'm missing?

[ProfessorGAC]

17. Thank You For Proving My Point

Your arguments are two dimensional. They require you to only suggest "X" therefore "Y". One person says something on DU, and that means all. One person says "all gun owners", and you extend to "everyone thinks that way." You've done it three times on this thread.

You don't think that sort of syllogism is evidence of two dimensional thought?

Your knee-jerk reaction to concerns over a gun crime is not convincing me that you've thought about this with any depth.

People are dead. Your worried about your opinion on the 2nd ammendment. And you want me to explain myself?
GAC

[DrCory]

18. You Must Be Joking

"One person says something on DU, and that means all. One person says "all gun owners", and you extend to "everyone thinks that way."

How on earth have you drawn such a conclusion?

"You don't think that sort of syllogism is evidence of two dimensional thought?"

I'm not the one suggesting X=Y, perhaps you should re-read this thread. I am arguing AGAINST the two dimensional quality of the "the shooter was once law-abiding just as all gun owners are law-abiding" concept. It seems you have failed to notice this is illogical, agenda-driven, argument

"Your knee-jerk reaction to concerns over a gun crime is not convincing me that you've thought about this with any depth."

Ah, and here's the crux. My "reaction" doesn't coincide with your own, therefore I haven't thought on this subject with any depth.
I wasn't aware your view was the standard by which others should be judged.

[ProfessorGAC]

56. Irreitrievalby Shallow

You're not worth of further comment. Try to understand your limitations. They are numerous and manifest.
GAC

[DrCory]

59. Sometimes...

The truth floats at the surface, easily spotted. As for my limitations, perhaps you can point them out to me. How else might I learn?

[TWiley]

35. You are absolutely correct GAC.

When it comes to the 2nd ammendment, the absolute worst logic is always used by the strongest supporters of the ammendment.

They twist words, insert meanings that do not apply, divert, and insert straw man arguments. I had an unbelievable discussion with a NRA half-wit who was arguing with dictionary definations of the very words HE was using.

Rare to see an ounce of sympathy for any victim from these folks, it is always about their "gun" and never about people.

I clearly see your point Professor, don't let them drag you into 6 directions at the same time.

[DrCory]

60. For Someone Who...

complains of strawmen, you seem eager to resort to such:

"Rare to see an ounce of sympathy for any victim from these folks, it is always about their "gun" and never about people."

Care to cite an example or provide a link?

[TWiley]

65. You ask me to prove a negative.

I did not realize that could be done.

[DrCory]

72. I See...

So you're a mentalist, eh?

[TWiley]

73. Point to a positive then

Point to a gun enthusiast right here and now on this thread who has said a kind word about the victims, a word of condemnation about the killer, and was not obsessed with "defending his gun"

[DrCory]

79. Are You Suggesting...

That the lack of the expression of horror toward these events is somehow proof that "gun enthusiasts" are not horrified or are deficient in empathy?

Expessions of "kind words about the victims" are neither required nor necessary to participate in this debate, and you haven't the means to judge mindset.

[TWiley]

74. by the way doctah, the shooter was trained as a cop, and had NO prior criminal record

oh, and he used two assault weapons, a shotgun, and a pistol.

[DrCory]

80. Your Point Being? N/T

[TWiley]

34. well doc, you are reading a bit to liberally into things.

From your post:

"I do not believe than anyone anywhere on this board has ever even implied that "all owners of firearms exist in a state of pre-crime".

Actually, yes, it has. In a thread of your own creation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"15. actually, all PEOPLE could be considered to be existing in a state of pre-crime as any person is capable of any heinous act, given the right circumstances. all criminals started out as law abiding, didn't they?

A statement with which you heartily agreed:

"22. Thank you ..... that was my point More than one person in this world has never committed an act of gun violence before their first murder.

Now, please don't go fire-medic-dave, but if you read what was written, then it is true. It is a play-on-words. Charles Manson even had his first crime somewhere along the way didn't he? That was the simple point that was being made in that other thread.

You are reading something into it that was not intended by either person having the discussion.

[tangent90]

43. The term "pre-crime" has no meaning unless there actually IS a crime at some point.

It is not the same as "pre-dead" because everyone exists in that state until the inevitable.

[TWiley]

47. Well, the sub-thread was about a discussion from a different post

It was a half-hearted play on words. Kind of like the religious idea of "everyone is born a sinner". Every criminal is a law abiding citizen until his first crime ... etc.

Doc took it beyond its intent to mean "All gun owners" exclusively. The pun was about everybody, gun owner or not. Everyone is one act from a hienous crime, and under the right conditions, many would probably do it.

The point was that the lack of a prior criminal record is not strongly predictive. Ted Bundy did not have much of a criminal record until he got popped.

[tangent90]

49. Okay, it's a little confusing though...isn't everyone born innocent?

(I mean from a legal perspective...I have absolutely no belief in the existence of "sin" which concept is completely subjective)

I just think that, per capita, there are no more gun owners who commit crimes with guns than car owners commit crimes with cars.

[TWiley]

54. Well, probably more if you consider drunk drivers.

The discussion at hand started (in a different topic thread) when I said something like "I wonder how many law abiding citizens became criminals after squeezing the trigger at the wrong time?", and it kind of took off from there. To use your example, it would be like saying I wonder how many drivers were law abiding citizens until they stopped at the bar. That was the spirit it was written in.

We are supposed to be presumed innocent in the eyes of the law. I dont believe the religious thing either.

[TWiley]

71. The Alabama mass murder had no prior criminal record BTW

In fact, he was trained as a cop. Evidently, he was living in a state of pre-crime

[tangent90]

41. I've noticed that defending the Constitution doesn't work with people who believe the Bill of

Rights ends after Amendment One.
:shrug:

[geckosfeet]

9. Why are people trying to defend this guy. He killed 10 people and himself.

If that doesn't concern you, then you may want to see someone about your indifference to human tragedy in the world around you. That others are concerned for their and their families safety after hearing about these kinds of things is to be expected.

When someone with a gun becomes so disconnected with the world that they think shooting at is OK, it is not pre-crime. Gun owners refuse to admit that if this guy did not have his guns 11 people may still be alive. It is a crime and a tragedy for all concerned that someone becomes so disconnected with their own life that randomly killing people is an option.

[DrCory]

12. You Are Equating...

Defense of the RKBA as indifference to human tragedy?

"If that doesn't concern you, then you may want to see someone about your indifference to human tragedy in the world around you"

And your qualifications to diagnose states of mind via the internet are what? Are you suggesting that because I have a different opinion from you I must be mentally ill?

[geckosfeet]

63. Just that you care about having a cool looking bang bang more than people lives.

Beyond that, you are just fine.

[DrCory]

75. Another Mentalist!

DU is rife with them!

"Just that you care about having a cool looking bang bang more than people lives."

Care to back that up with a quote or some other form of proof that I believe as you have stated?

[TWiley]

78. One busted doctah

Evidently, more than just I have noticed the inclination of the gun crowd to minimize the victims losses while insanely defending their gun.

Since you are a doctah, may I ask you a professional question? Is there any truth to the claim that men with small dicks like big guns? I read something once that claimed a correlation between male impotence and rapid fire weapons.

[DrCory]

81. I Was Wondering...

When you might throw out the the "compensation" absurdity.

"Is there any truth to the claim that men with small dicks like big guns?"

Why don't you ask women who own "big guns", or do you claim there aren't any?

"I read something once that claimed a correlation between male impotence and rapid fire weapons"

Well, by all means provide a link! I for one would find such a study fascinating.

If it actually exits.

[DrCory]

91. By The Way...

Why This?

"doctah"

[TWiley]

102. Dr Cory

I probably got it wrong but I guessed that you were a doctor based on your name.

Having gotten a good nights sleep, I realized right off that I have not been very nice to you and would like to apologize for being so rude. My rudeness had little to do with your behavior so far, it had more to do with prior experiences with some of your collegues. I was seeing their behaviors in your text.

I will try to read more sincerity into your posts than I have come to expect from other gun people.

[DrCory]

112. Accepted and Understood

The topic of this thread inflames passion, and in this heated environment it can be difficult to maintain one's composure. I'm not a medical doctor, nor wish to be as I have no interest in the field.

[geckosfeet]

94. No. Thanks for the offer though.

[DrCory]

97. Whyever Not?

Maybe 'cause you can't back this up with proof?

"Just that you care about having a cool looking bang bang more than people lives.
Beyond that, you are just fine."

If not, perhaps you should consider a retraction.

[geckosfeet]

100. No. No retratction. I stand by my statement. Thanks for the goading htough.

[DrCory]

106. So, You Are...

Claiming the talent of mind-reading? How else could you know I possess beliefs not explicitly stated?

"Just that you care about having a cool looking bang bang more than people lives."

I'll ask you again how you have reached such a conclusion, and I will continue to ask until you answer.

"I stand by my statement"

Well then, you should be more than willing and able to explain why.

[geckosfeet]

114. Odd as it might sound,, I'm not going to engage in this silliness anymore.

Have yourself a nice one.

[DrCory]

117. Why Does It Not Surprise Me...

That you would fold. The next time you cry "strawman", I'll remind you of this.

[TWiley]

76. .

.

[TornadoTN]

25. I don't disagree with your point, but there is a far more disturbing issue that you bring up

Why did this person (or any person) get to that point to begin with? Society might have failed him in many ways and our social obligation to provide everyone equal opportunity the pursuit of happiness. Mental issues that go untreated or misdiagnosed, lost in the system, or just can't afford to seek psychiatric help or medications.

Access to guns is just one factor - not the underlying cause of the tragedy.

Don't get me wrong - gun reform is needed and necessary. But we can't get lost in our furor over the fact that the crime was committed with a gun and forget about the bigger picture. Only then can we prevent such tragedies in the future.

[geckosfeet]

67. You're right. Th guy was clearly unstable and seemed to have an obsession with guns.

The two are not necessarily dependent upon each other and I suppose we will never know. But his obsession and his "bad day issues" certainly combined in a tragic way.

Just a thought - universal health care with FULL mental health benefits.

Yes - some kind of regulation but I have no idea what that would look like. We have a second amendment - lets start there. Does it apply to everyone? mentally ill or not? Most courts have ruled no. But trying to apply some kind of standard is very very difficult. What is normal in one locality my be deviant or dangerous in another.

Bottom line - you own the gun, you own the behavior and responsibility. We really have no choice but to trust the gun owner. As this incident demonstrates, that trust comes with risks.

on edit: sp.

[tangent90]

40. It's amazing how you can peer into the psyches of people by remote control.

Are you Bill Frist?

[geckosfeet]

68. No. But I am amazing.

[tanngrisnir3]

44. I'm sorry, but who is defending the shooter here? Could you point them out?

[geckosfeet]

62. Yes - you are sorry.

[DrCory]

83. Why Not Answer The Question? N/T

[tanngrisnir3]

90. Ah, so you don't actually have an answer. Sadly predictable.

[geckosfeet]

93. Yes. Sad. Like the people who survived the a$$wipes little shooting spree.

[tanngrisnir3]

96. Have you ever considered having a cogent point? Just a suggestion.

[geckosfeet]

99. Thanks for the advice.

[TWiley]

66. As I said .... It is ALWAYS about the gun, no sympathy for the victim

It sure seems that way to me doctah

[DrCory]

86. If I Were To...

Express sympathy for the victims, would that not nullify your argument?

"It is ALWAYS about the gun, no sympathy for the victim"

[DrCory]

89. I Hereby...

Express my sympathy for the victims, rendering this statement null and void:

"It is ALWAYS about the gun, no sympathy for the victim"

Always? I have just provided one example to the contrary, which is all that's needed to toss that argument into the ashcan.

Well, that was easy.

[TWiley]

103. Thank you

[lucretia54]

113. I'm so glad there's someone who remembers that there's a tragedy...

which has occurred here- and it happens all too often in this country. We should start asking ourselves why we have so many homicides. We can't even have a discussion about it, because gun lovers rush to defend their guns so vehemently.

I don't know what it's going to take- but the incidence of gun violence in America is ridiculous when compared to the rest of the world. I just grabbed out of my files a figure for 1992 (one can assume the numbers have only gone up) that in that year, handguns killed 33 people in Great Britain, 36 in Sweden, 97 in Switzerland, 60 in Japan, 13 in Australia, 128 in Canada, and....13,200 in the United States!

???

[ggould1]

111. Only the ones who stockpile lots of ammo and make revenge lists

[Raksha]

122. Obviously, some *DO* exist in a state of pre-crime.

Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing who they are until after the fact. Or as Elie Wiesel once said: "Nobody is a killer until he kills."

[TornadoTN]

23. I agree with you but hold a major exception with your inclusion of "fishing" in your framing

I'm a gun owner. I value the second amendment.

However, I am also a realist that understand that gun laws need to be strengthened. Another issue and perhaps the most important one, is that we need to address the underlying reasons and cause that drive these people to make the decisions that they make. While I'm unsure if stricter gun laws would have prevented the tragedy in Alabama, identifying mental illness and addressing social issues that can be a major contributing factor needs to be a priority.

Now - why in the hell would you put fishing into this argument? I don't hunt, but I fish and enjoy the outdoors a great deal - its why I value environmental protection. I dont know any fisherman in my circle that has killed anyone due to fishing or gone on homicidal rages because of it. You can't kill someone with a fishing pole (that I know of). If you are referring to the fish, then you need to look into fishing a little more. Most people (myself included) practice safe catch and release and make sure to do minimal or, ideally, no harm to the fish. I take only what I am going to use and no more - mainly trout and other game fish and that's a rare occasion when I do.

Hunting might be characterized the same way in some respects. In my area of the country, deer are considered a beautiful "pest" because they damage crops and are the cause of many serious accidents on the road. The firearms used in hunting are generally much different than the pistols and assault rifles that are used in these high profile cases that we hear about. I don't know many hunters that would want to take a Bushmaster out on a deer hunt instead of their .30-06.

[Jamastiene]

82. Oh, I don't know. Fishing poles might not kill people, but

there is always that case where someone isn't paying attention to their casting technique. My step dad was casting his fly fishing rod and caught the hook on my shirt. I imagine if I had tried really hard, I could have bumped my head on the boat and fell in the water and got eaten by a huge channel catfish. :P

I'm actually joking here, but just wanted to tell a funny fishing story. The part about the fly fishing lure getting caught on my shirt was true, but the head bumping part wasn't in case anyone can't tell. :)

[TWiley]

6. ahhh, another gun enthusiast. The one in Germany who killed 15 was also

[DrCory]

14. How about clarifying...

Your definition of enthusiast?

[TWiley]

51. enthusiast is not the best word, but I cannot think of a different one.

The O.P. said he was "facinated" with guns. I heard a news story that claimed that he was heavily armed. Evidently he had an M16, an AK47, a shotgun, and various other weapons.

I was (and still am) trying to find a descriptive word that is between the ordinary duck hunter, and someone who is a full-on collector with a fully automatic weapons lisence, NRA / Militia membershp, and a virtual armory of more than 20 guns.

I think Rasko was closest when he said "homicidal maniac" Maybe there is not a word for what I am thinking.

[benEzra]

57. No M16 and no AK-47, and certainly no Form 4 paperwork or we'd have heard about it.

The O.P. said he was "facinated" with guns. I heard a news story that claimed that he was heavily armed. Evidently he had an M16, an AK47, a shotgun, and various other weapons.

No M16 and no AK-47, and certainly no Form 4 paperwork or we'd have heard about it.

The Alabama Department of Public Safety said he had an SKS, a Bushmaster AR-15, a 12-gauge shotgun, and a .38 revolver. Considering those are, respectively, the most common centerfire rifle in U.S. homes, the fastest selling centerfire rifle in America, the most common caliber of shotgun in America, and the most common revolver in America, I'd hardly say this was out of the ordinary. If any of the long guns were illegally converted to full auto, that would be another thing entirely, but gun enthusiasts would be unlikely to do that, either, because that's a good way to lose your right to own a gun for life.

I was (and still am) trying to find a descriptive word that is between the ordinary duck hunter, and someone who is a full-on collector with a fully automatic weapons lisence, NRA / Militia membershp, and a virtual armory of more than 20 guns.

The word for someone who legally owns Title 2 automatic weapons is "wealthy collector." Priced a civilian transferable M16 lately? $17,000 to $75,000, depending on make and model, and shooting them costs about $4 per second. Even cheaply made stamped metal 9mm subguns will set you back $5,000 or more, and consume expensive ammo at similarly prodigious rates.

Your "ordinary duck hunter" represents less than 5% of U.S. gun owners. Fewer than 20% of gun owners hunt, and of those, only around a quarter hunt birds. Meaning, only ~1 in 20 U.S. gun owners hunts birds, and owning a tool to hunt birds with doesn't mean that guns interest you at all.

I'd say that the best term for the person who owns several guns and enjoys shooting them recreationally or competitively, and wishes to preserve the right to choose to own them, would indeed be "gun enthusiast."

[TWiley]

69. Here is a link

A man who killed at least 10 people, including the wife and daughter of a sheriff's deputy who was chasing him, had trained as a police officer and recently quit a job at a meat products distributor.

As the grieving towns in rural southern Alabama devastated by his violence sought to put their communities back together, it was revealed that the gunman, named as 28-year-old Michael McLendon, had kept a list of those "who done him wrong".

After nearly a full day of investigation by police from 20 separate agencies, officials had pieced together an account of the violence. The killing began just before 3.30pm when McLendon shot his mother, killed her four dogs and set her house on fire in rural Kinston, local officials said.

He travelled about 10 miles to Samson, where he opened fire on relatives gathered on his uncle's porch, killing the uncle, two cousins, the wife and 18-month-old daughter of a sheriff's deputy and his grandmother at a house next door, police said. The deputy's other daughter, a four-month-old, was injured and in a stable condition yesterday.

McLendon drove off in his Mitsubishi car, killed at least three others seemingly at random and injured three police officers who tried to intervene.

The bloodshed ended when McLendon retreated into a metal products plant in Geneva, about 12 miles from Samson. After exchanging gunfire with two police officers, he killed himself.

McLendon was armed with two high-powered assault rifles, a handgun and a shotgun, and police say he fired more than 200 rounds. He had no criminal record.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/12/alabama-killer-mclendon-geneva

[benEzra]

85. That's a British newspaper, and they don't say what kind of guns.

I'm citing the police report via the Alabama Department of Public Safety, and while the report is not perfect, it at least identifies the firearms by type, and doesn't make the mistake of calling them "high powered".

http://dps.alabama.gov/appDocuments/Documents/News%20Release/ContinuingHomicideInvestigation.pdf

McLendon was armed with two assault rifles, an SKS and a Bushmaster, using high capacity magazines taped together; a shotgun; and a .38-caliber handgun.

This murderer wasn't an antihero, wasn't superman, and doesn't seem to have been trained much with carbines (taping magazines together is a bit Hollywood-esque, as it is slower to reload that way and risks disabling the second magazine); he was a deranged, egotistical loser who thought that his own personal problems gave him the right to harm others.

The Alabama DPS report gives no indication that any of the guns had been illegally converted to full auto, although it doesn't rule it out either. That part remains to be seen.

But as I said, those are extremely common firearms. My own wife owns an SKS (collectible 1952 Tula), and the AR-15 platform is the #1 selling centerfire rifle in the United States by a wide margin.

[DrCory]

107. A factory configuration SKS....

Does not have most of the features commonly associated with "assault rifles". A fixed, charger-fed 10 round magazine, no pistol grip, fixed butt stock. Many do have a permanently affixed bayonet, but other than being semi-auto in configuration, they are not in the same category as the AK for example. Even if fitted with any of the numerous magazine capacity extenders (most of dubious effectiveness)and/or an after-market pistol grip stock, it's a rather poor substitute. However, some Chinese SKS rifles modified to accept 30 round AK magazines were imported into the U.S., but they are much less common and can command a much higher price than the standard configuration. So far, I haven't encountered any detailed description of the SKS he used.

[Raskolnik]

22. Actually, I think a more apt label is "homicidal maniac," but if you think the "gun enthusiast" tag

is more important, then by all means use it.

[TWiley]

31. I tend to agree Rasko, Homicidal Maniac is more fitting

I cannot defend the word "enthusiast", I was only thinking of someone who was really attached to his weaponry. Maniac is, by far, more appropriate.

I saw something on the news that said he had a virtual arsenal with him. M16, AK47, Shotgun etc. The ordinary gun owner does not have such a collection, hence I was searching for a word a notch above the ordinary user.

[spoony]

52. How about "homicide enthusiast"

Seems more on point.

[TWiley]

105. How about "Self Defense Homicide Enthusiast"

[benEzra]

127. OK, which of these murders do you think was self-defense?

I'll spell out the criteria for you:

Justified Self-Defense

A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another if and only if:

(a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(c) The citizen using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, AND

(d) Force used was not excessive -- greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor."

Note that ALL FOUR conditions must generally be met in order for a shooting to be ruled justifiable (although there is an exception for someone kicking your door in or, in some states, carjacking you).

Care to explain why you think this murderer's actions fit these criteria? Cite case law if you need to.

[TornadoTN]

24. Big difference between an enthusiast and a responsible firearms owner

The broad brushed strokes that I've seen around here are reminiscent of what we see coming from the GOP side.

We seem to take the stand around here that anyone that owns a gun is exactly like the NRA nuts that we see on TV screaming "they are going to take my guns!" or the popular "from my cold, dead hands". We need to realize that there are far more people that own firearms and rarely fire them and perhaps outdoorsmen and women that hunt for sport - and for food.

Just because someone owns a gun doesn't give anyone the right to be so judgmental as some of the people here are being.

[aikoaiko]

26. Can't trust introverts with guns, I guess.

:sarcasm:

[raccoon]

27. I bet he had been drinking or drugging before going postal. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

29. He also lived with his mother.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[dustbunnie]

84. Unless if she was like Carrie's mom.

[MadHound]

30. I wonder if this guy had a concealed carry permit?

My bet is that he did, since “Everywhere that he went that he could tote a gun," It would be interesting to find out, but sadly Alabama doesn't keep a list of those with CCW permits, either on the county or state level.

[TWiley]

39. I wonder if he ever took a "gun self-defense" or "Gun Safety Class"

My bet is that he did.

[benEzra]

42. If he had one, it will come out...

the state does indeed keep carry license records, with periodic renewal required, and unless they've changed things since I lived next door, Alabama's CHL licensure process is somewhat discretionary and their non-CHL carry limitations are on the strict side with regard to handguns. I looked into it because at that time, AL did not have a reciprocity agreement with FL, though they do now.

I'm not aware of any mass shooter that has ever bothered to obtain a carry license, but there is always a first.

[liberal1973]

58. Was this dirt bag a nra member?

[TWiley]

77. I would bet so. With two assault weapons, a shotgun, and pistols.

I would bet that he was an NRA member

[benEzra]

88. There are at least five times as many legal "assault weapon" owners

as there are NRA members (the NRA is only 4 million people out of 80 million gun owners).

Still, he may have been an NRA member. Or not. You could also speculate about his religion, political affiliation, left or right handed, favorite video games/TV shows/movies, favorite foods, sexual orientation, education, upbringing, teetotaler or not, hunter or not, and use those imaginary associations to disparage other DU'ers who you wish to associate with him. Or, you could wait and see what facts about this loser come out.

All we know at this point is that he was a former police officer who inexplicably quit, worked a number of other jobs he also quit, was white and in his late 20's, owned four very common civilian guns (assuming no illegal conversions), and committed an unspeakably evil and selfish act. More information will come out in time.

BTW, I don't see "pistols" in the Alabama DPS report; I see one .38 revolver.

[WeDidIt]

92. Every Freeper has this guy inside them

and it's just witing to get out.

[TWiley]

121. You might be on to someting there.

It does seem that extremely conservative politics and religious beliefs are common among the really violent criminals.

[Rider Haggard]

95. I'm afraid that this will go right over the head of many.

And that's a damned shame.

Personally, I would judge a fixation with instruments of death a mental illness. I'll go run and hide now before those with the same fixation come calling me out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. Depending on the level of that fixation you might be right.

[anneboleyn]

101. I agree with you. This is often a characteristic of sociopaths.

[TWiley]

104. I agree, maybe a NRA membership is a stronger predictor than a prior criminal record.

[Paladin]

119. You Just Insulted A Majority Of DU's Gun Dungeon Participants.

Congratulations. And my personal thanks to you.

[zomgidiftl]

123. I cannot fathom the fascination with going out to a shooting range

and putting bullets in a target shaped like a human outline!:scared:

Guns are destructive and IMO bad karma. There are so many more positive outlets than to play with weapons.

[benEzra]

125. How about fencing? Boxing? Other martial arts?

I shoot both recreationally and competitively. Shooting is zen, not Rambo; for an instant, the front sight or reticle is the world, and "slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

FWIW, I'm 38 and have so far avoided so much as a fistfight outside of martial arts classes. I hope to continue this trend.

[AnnieBW]

124. I wonder what his FR handle was?

Him and the guy in Maine that was building the dirty bomb.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

126. I find it fascinating that this post is still in General Discussion.

Why is it that defensive use of gun posts are quickly moved to the gungeon and mass murder gun policy posts are left in General Discussion? Maybe someone will have an answer.

David

[lib2DaBone]

128. What a surprise... he couldn't cope with Republican Values.....

Tried to be a cop, tried to join the military.

How about trying to be a human? But, we do not reward people for being "human".