I haven't read every single Merit Pay for Teachers post...

[FlyingSquirrel]

but in my opinion people are making an extremely simple issue much more complicated than it really is.

There are good teachers and there are bad teachers and there are average teachers - just like there is good and bad and average in any profession.

If you were somehow able to create the perfect merit system that would be able to objectively grade each teacher and reward them based on their ability and on how well they teach their unique group of kids, vs. how well someone else might (impossible): While this system would be great for the great teachers and it would be nice to see them get the pay that they deserve, it would only serve to make the "bad" and "average" teachers more bitter about their low pay. It's human nature. They're in a comfort zone and that's where they're likely to stay. Some of them might improve a bit, but overall you would not see a dramatic improvement in the teaching profession.

The way you get MORE good teachers than bad or average is very simple. You pay them ALL better -- much better -- and improve the training they must undergo. This will attract and retain more qualified people to the profession, as it does in any high-paying profession.

But gosh, we just don't have the money for that, do we? It's always something that we just can't afford. I'm sorry to disagree with President Obama on this one, but I must. It's just so obvious to me.

[BuyingThyme]

1. They should just give the merit pay to the students who get the best grades.

Yep. I'm goin' with that.

[ColbertWatcher]

14. I'll go one further: students' grades should be based on their parents.

If a teacher says a student was messing around in class and the parent/s come in denying that junior could be a problem to anyone, that student automatically fails the class.

[Diane R]

29. I'll go one step further. If an entire group of parents says a teacher harms their children...

...a true investigation should take place. If the allegations prove true, that teacher loses her/his job....not just kept on until they retire.

[ColbertWatcher]

33. Another step: if the investigation shows that the teacher did not harm the precious snowflake ...

... the parents and lawyers are fined, lose any professional licenses they may have and go to jail. In addition, if a church or other "religious institution" is found to be behind the "claim of harm" in any way or fashion, that church loses its tax-exempt status.

[sandnsea]

2. Training is part of the merit

If they get more training, they get more pay, just for getting the training.

[FlyingSquirrel]

7. This is unnecessary.

Why leave it up to the teacher to decide whether they'll undergo extra training and then pay them accordingly? Instead, require the training that you want of ALL teachers, pay them for that training, then pay them a higher wage upon completion of the training. Then they'll all be at the same level and be getting paid the same depending on their longevity (something you will not see the unions cave on, believe me. Merit pay goes against everything unions believe in.)

[sandnsea]

9. Uh, same difference

And no, not all teachers get the same training now. Some have masters and PhD's. Some take more courses during the summer than others. Humans are different. You're not talking about unions, treating everybody exactly the same - you're talking about socialism. Unions have career ladders built in. This is just another career ladder, that's all.

[BlooInBloo]

3. That's why I'm not particularly hyper about merit pay....

Quadruple all teacher pay, halve class sizes, do other things about their work environment along those lines.

Remove all barriers to entry into the profession for people with real degrees (i.e., not education degrees).

Make professional advancement contingent on, among other things, advanced degrees in real subjects (i.e., not education).

Let nature take its course.


Then deal with the HARD problem: the parents.


EDIT: In any case, the teachers just use the "there's no perfect measuring stick!" whine as an excuse to never have their work judged. Nobody - but NOBODY has a perfect measuring stick for anything. That fact doesn't prevent measuring from being useful. They're just lying.

[sense]

20. I agree

With the first part of your post..... heartily.

Then you blame all parents!..... how about just the absentee parents... the ones who may be there physically, but are not parenting in any productive way.

Our system is a mess.

[Eryemil]

4. The most sensible thing I've read in this whole idiotic debate. n|t

[FrenchieCat]

5. Obama is going to give merit pay to teachers based on subject classes they themselves take to add

to their reservoir of knowledge,
also they will be rewarded for teaching in underprivileged schools, etc...

He clearly stated he wasn't going to deal with merit pay based on standardized test scores taken by students.

[FlyingSquirrel]

10. Good to know.

See my post above however - If you want these classes taken, then REQUIRE them of ALL the teachers; pay them for the training; and then pay ALL of them this additional money upon completion of the training.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Some teachers don't want to take additional classes.

Some would rather spend the time with their families.

Why mandate something that is technically extra credit?
Let teachers who want the extra pay, and are willing go for it.
Some teachers may not feel like it.

Why not give them the option....but provide incentives?

[FlyingSquirrel]

13. Here's the thing

I don't know if you've been in a union before, but labor agreements don't really provide that kind of flexibility for paying union members. Also, each labor agreement is unique and is negotiated locally, not nationally. I don't really see how ANY idea related to teacher pay could be implemented nationally without making all teachers Federal Employees. Maybe that's actually the way to go, I don't know (it would of course raise all kinds of additional issues).

[ColbertWatcher]

16. I hope whatever law is passed to make this happen is specific ...

... about what he means by "merit" pay.

[Fresh_Start]

6. I don't have a problem with merit pay

that's not to say that I believe that teachers are paid appropriately. Teachers are underpaid.

My son has had great teachers most of the time (and one really horrendous one to make me really appreciate the good ones).

Living in an environment where merit pay exists, some people get more merit pay, some get less merit pay, and some get no merit pay. It doesn't decrease the base salary, it's above the base salary. Sometimes I've gotten the high end of the merit bonus and other times I've been middle of the road. While I honestly believe that I might have deserved more than I got from time to time, I didn't begrudge other people their merit pay. It doesn't make the environment less professional. It doesn't mean that people are uncooperative because of grudges over merit pay. It means that sometimes (not all the time) you are rewarded for work above and beyond.

[Diane R]

8. No. It's time that teachers are held to the same standards as other workers.

[readmoreoften]

12. Oh give me a fucking break.

Go back to the Republican party where you belong.

:eyes:

[ContinentalOp]

18. You're absolutely right.

We should treat teachers like all other workers. i.e. crush their union and get some people in India and China to teach our kids over the speakerphone. Sounds good to me.

[JCMach1]

22. We'll talk when all you get is 15min to eat your lunch if you are lucky

and no other breaks during the day. Oh yeah, and then if you work extra say coaching your kid in a sport... I used to get a whole extra 500 per year to do that. Woohoo. During the season I left home at 5:30AM and would get back (on game days) between 11-12 in the evening. Practice days 8-9pm.

Not to mention the constant stress and responsibility...

So, when your private sector job has some of those aspects we'll talk.

[Diane R]

26. Been there, done that. And I had a classroom of 33 1st graders, with 8 who didn't speak English.

I taught for ten years. I worked with crappy teachers who had no business in a classroom, but stayed for the pension, benefits, and summers. My own children had their share of crappy teachers, and they deserved better.

Don't tell me that I thought my 'little angels' were too good. One became a Dr. by age 26, one is in the Peace Corps, one is going off to Law School. Yet they had some teachers who really weren't very intelligent at all.

When teachers start hating their jobs, thinking they shouldn't be held to basic standards and living for the summers, it's time to push them out.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. So... you're not a teacher any more?

Then it sounds like the problem with bad teachers works itself out.

[Diane R]

30. Nasty comment. I had to stay home with a chronically ill child.

I then volunteered in my own children's classrooms, and now that they are (very successful) adults, I still volunteer in a Kindergarten.

Your nasty comment says much about this issue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Your nasty attitude says much about your credibility on the issue.

It says you have none.

[wickerwoman]

32. Right because the solution to teacher burn-out

is to fire all the burned out teachers, not to address the aspects of the system that lead to burn-out. There's the added bonus that you can replace them with kids fresh out of college who don't know shit about teaching and pay them a lot less. And then replace them when they burn out. Sounds like a recipe for academic success. Thank god we're now running our schools like our businesses.

[Greyhound]

24. And you should be forced to subject your own kids to the system you advocate. n/t

[Diane R]

27. What? A system with qualified, motivated teachers? I would have loved it.

[aikoaiko]

15. On the other hand, paying the best and worst performer the same leads to low morale

Of course teachers are generally a self or intrinsically motivated bunch, but paying everyone the same regardless of performance does make for healthy organizations.

[greenkal]

17. But it's wrong to pay someone more than someone else!

You claim it may hurt morale by paying everyone fairly, but paying people unfairly will definitely be worse for morale.

[aikoaiko]

25. I suppose it depends on one's definition of fairness.

I think paying everyone the same regardless of performance and achievements is unfair.

[EFerrari]

19. It makes no sense to me to focus on teachers in this weird divisive way.

Build the team. Build the school. Have district goals that are real to people. Teaching doesn't happen one kid at a time or even one teacher at a time. To focus so much on the individual ignores the way teaching (and learning) really happens.

[mwooldri]

21. I feel good teachers should be rewarded and bad teachers penalized, reassigned or fired.

Question is how do you do it effectively?

What happens to all the good teachers? My guesses are that either a) they get "higher up" in the ranks of teachers at the local school, b) post for other teaching jobs that are perceived to be "better", c) become school administrators.

Likewise you have the "bad teachers". You have teachers in NYC who get sent to "Rubber Rooms" for months, sometimes YEARS - to do absolutely nothing. Then they either get reassigned or fired. If you're in the corporate world or in private education, you get terminated a whole lot quicker than that. It's a waste of money, bad for teacher morale, and stupid.

Of course you have issues with school funding too. Right now it seems that the most successful schools receive more $ per student than failing schools. One way to equalize this is to mandate that each school student is assigned a dollar amount, and each school should receive a MINIMUM amount of funding based upon this. You have special needs students too so students assessed as having a special need should be priced higher accordingly (i.e. school should get more money). Extremely small schools though would need to be protected: e.g. Ocracoke School is a K through 12 school with 92 students; the smallest school in NC - there may be smaller schools still. Teachers are right; schools aren't businesses but businesses recognize that when something is failing you have two choices: replace it or invest in improving it and fixing it. It's extremely difficult to replace a failing school so the alternative is simple: invest money in the failing schools so they improve. A lot of that is due to underinvestment and poor management of the resources allocated to it. I'll also dare say that some of it is also to unmotivated teachers who are underperforming. They're good teachers, just not motivated and stuck in a downward spiral because they can't improve their students and get frustrated.

One way to reward and recognize good teachers without "merit pay" is with "position & responsibility pay". Create various tiers within the school and ranks. If a teacher takes on an after school program, pay that teacher more. If a teacher is a department head, pay them more. If a teacher is a year/grade head, pay them more. If a teacher has a PhD or a higher qualification, pay them more. If a teacher routinely demonstrates that they spend X hours a week preparing lessons, pay them accordingly. But overall, definitely pay teachers more. I have seen some teachers working in McDonalds to supplement their pay. Now there may be other reasons but IMO teachers should not need to take out a job at McDonalds just to make ends meet because they're not paid enough. It's bad enough that high school students have to work and go to school (weekend job: OK. near enough full time job: Not OK) but the teachers too? Eeks :(

It's good to have the debate. I think something must be done, some kind of merit system. Just the "how" is the problem for me. Rewards on test scores alone: no good.

[Greyhound]

23. Ignoring the fact that the entire system is an abomination, teachers pay should be doubled

to start with. Administration salaries should be cut bigger cuts the higher you go until administration and teaching reach parity, and a bottom-up budget should be required, IMNSHO.