Wouldn't one of the first things we have to do to improve education be admit

[RB TexLa]

that some children are not smart. I don't know exactly what the solution is but we should provide an education fitting the students. I've seen many on here bad mouth standardized testing, perhaps standardized diplomas are the problem.

[Hello_Kitty]

1. Why am I not surprised that you are posting this? eom

[Midlodemocrat]

2. Good luck with that.

And, I agree with you in part. There are parents who absolutely are blind to a child's inabilities. But, where do we draw the line? Do we tell the parent of a child with Down Syndrome that the child has 'peaked' at age 7 when the parents envision a child who is capable of living on his own?

Do we tell the parents of a severely autistic child that this child will need to be institutionalized because he is so out of control that his elderly adoptive parents can't handle him?

I don't know. I know of one heartbreaking scenario. A severely autistic child who took a shine to me and who I brought home to be around my kids. His mother was so incredibly taken aback, she asked us to be his guardians.

It really does take a village.

[Traveling_Home]

3. Help me out here ......

If White and Asian kids stand very favorably when compared to other nations and African American and Hispanic kids score so low as to impact the Country's overall standing, your statement "that some children are not smart" - well I'm sure you can see the problem.

[Hello_Kitty]

4. Oh he does.

The brown kids can grow up and do the "jobs that Americans won't do".

[RB TexLa]

7. I didn't say that or think that, why would you make up such a lie?

[Rage for Order]

32. That response does sound like something...

that would come from a closet racist with a guilty conscience, doesn't it? You made no mention of race, yet that's the first thing that popped into that person's head - that some races of people aren't as smart as others.

I agree with you, by the way, but good luck convincing any parent that their kid isn't the next Albert Einstein. Some children have learning disorders that need to be addressed, some are better at working with their hands, and some just aren't very smart.

[Midlodemocrat]

44. The OP is not a racist. Not at all.

[RB TexLa]

5. No, I'm just saying that all children and people are not smart.

[Traveling_Home]

11. No, you said ......

"Wouldn't one of the first things we have to do to improve education be admit that some children are not smart."

NO

As my statement demonstrated.

IMO

[RB TexLa]

12. So you believe all children are smart? That they are all of high intelligence?

You think there are no people with lower intelligence?

[Solon]

27. Define intelligence. n/t

[Traveling_Home]

57. The comparison that is getting the attention these days is ....

between American kids test scores and the test scores of kids in other countries.

I made the statement
"If White and Asian kids stand very favorably when compared to other nations and African American and Hispanic kids score so low as to impact the Country's overall standing, your statement "that some children are not smart" - well I'm sure you can see the problem."

African American and Hispanic kids have the lower scores dragging down the perception of how the American Education system compares to other countries. By your statement these "children are not smart".

I reject that analysis.

[anigbrowl]

38. Um, fail.

How you get racism from that I have no idea. The OP never said it was the only factor. But you would have to be...well, not smart to believe that there is not a distribution of intellectual ability (just as there is of athletic and artistic ability, to name but two others).

[KittyWampus]

46. Well, you just lead into the point I'd make. There are different KINDS of smart. Different abilities

Different fields to excel in.

Some kids really are good with their hands but not strong with numbers.
Some kids exel with human inter-relations but not books.
Some kids can perform outstandingly in sports or music but not shine in school.

That said, just because you may be very good in a non-academic area doesn't mean you should stop trying and work to get your diploma.

[RB TexLa]

6. dupe

[Nevernose]

47. Yet another NCLB screw-up

White and black have very little to do with it, other than the fact that black kids are three times as likely to be poor than white kids. There's a direct correlation between SES of the student and success in school. It's not about race, it's about money. NCLB, though, measures subgroups largely by race, rather then income.

Looking at income inequality, though, would require us as a nation to begin moving beyond racial justice and into the realm of economic justice, and that's "class warfare" and "communism."

[ulysses]

8. define "smart".

[Juche]

9. I thought we had a 3 tiered education system

Remedial schools and courses
Regular schools and courses
Gifted schools and courses

[RB TexLa]

10. It's been a while since I was in school, everyone was in the same classes.

[Juche]

22. In Indiana there are programs for gifted kids

Kids who do well academically are given the option of doing things like taking college courses at local colleges/universities or going to the Indiana Academy for Science, which is a high school for gifted kids.

[ddeclue]

18. Some places do... a lot of places don't..nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. At many schools that's a complete joke.

Both the remedial and gifted programs at my high school were totally useless.

[Midlodemocrat]

45. That's what we have.

But, in all honesty, the gifted program is a joke. I had one in the program and currently have one in the program. I would prefer that they abandoned any pretense of a gifted program and turned the money over to SpED. It would serve the community a lot better.

Try telling that to someone whose only child is in the gifted program, however.

[MadMaddie]

13. Perhaps saying not smart is not the correct terminology

I would restate it as every child has potential and ability if they show apptitude in certain fields of study.

I think all children should attend pre-school, elementry, and junior high and receive a rounded education. Included in that education classes that capture a childs passion such as simple mechanics, simple science, farming, IT should be included in the curriculum.

9th grade and highschool those different aptitudes can be tought in different ways. If it's farming a teen can focus on that through highschool along with mathmatics, measurements, soil study etc that farmers would need to be successful. They could go on to Universities to study those fields if they wanted to.

The same for mechnics, IT and other fields.

Not every child will grow up to be a scientist, lawyer or doctor but there are many other important fields that make this country a success.

[Burma Jones]

14. I think we have so devalued Blue Collar work, that unless you go to College

and get a degree, you're a failure.....and that's just plain fucked up.


I'd rather be a good plumber than a good marketing analyst any day.


I think RB TexLa might be suggesting a High School model where you do get different types of diplomas, I think Germany has/had that sort of thing. And, in the words of Vince the Shamwow Guy, you know the Germans make good stuff....

[RB TexLa]

16. Yes, differing education programs is a good idea, like I said I don't have a solution

but it seems one education fits all can't work well.

[Lyric]

33. Things like that already exist here, at least in some places.

For example, at my rural Virginia high school, you could get one of three different types of diplomas--a 19 credit, a 25 credit, or a 31 credit diploma. Everybody knew that the 19-credit one was for the farm kids, the 25-credit one was for the kids destined for trade schools and truck driving, and the 31-credit diploma was for future college students.

[Hello_Kitty]

40. But he wants those blue collar tracked students to compete with cheap foreign labor

If you are not "smart" you can fight over scraps. Seriously, do a search on his posts.

[Burma Jones]

43. If that's the case, then education won't matter anyway

Unless you want to be a big fish in a third world country.

[Solon]

15. My cousin had dyslexia, undiagnosed, for the first 5 years of school...

would he have been one of those kids you label as "not so smart"? Your attitude disgusts me. :puke:

[RB TexLa]

17. I'm not talking about people with learning or physical disabilities.

[Solon]

20. Well then who the hell are you talking about?

Many smart kids are unmotivated in class, others simply have problems with short attention spans, and yet others simply aren't curious about the world so don't want to learn. They aren't dumb, some are ignorant, but not dumb.

[RB TexLa]

25. Maybe if education were more tailored to them instead of the one education fits all they

might be more motivated.

We can include the ignorant with those who just are not smart. I'm not saying someone is a waste because they are not smart or trying to degrade them. They would be better served by the educational system recognizing their needs, what they can and can't do and what will serve them best.

[Solon]

26. Well, all I know is that I seem to be talking to one of those "who is just not smart" right now...

just saying.

[RB TexLa]

28. Well maybe someone will five high you for your little insult.

[Solon]

29. So you admit that it is an insult that is degrading...

Perhaps that will be a lesson for you to stop using such terminology, especially considering that it isn't accurate in the first place.

[RB TexLa]

31. Of course everyone is a genius.

:crazy:

We should never do anything to provide an education that would actually help someone who can't grasp calculus.

[Solon]

34. And how do you tell whether someone can't grasp calculus, or simply can't concentrate on it...

because of an unstable home life? The problem with your whole premise is that you make it out to be as if intelligence is easily defined and measured, when that is NOT the case at all. Cognitive sciences are only beginning to grasp the nuances of mental development and learning in the brain, with the exception of those who suffer some type of traumatic brain injury or suffer from an inherited disability, at this point, we can't say that some kids are simply smarter than others, things are much more complicated than that.

[RB TexLa]

35. I do not think it is easy to determine.

[Solon]

36. then don't make statements like "some kids just aren't so smart" as if they were fact...

when the correct answer is that YOU don't know.

[RB TexLa]

37. We do know that some people are smarter than others.

You really don't believe that some people are smarter than other people?

[anigbrowl]

39. Your interlocutor is never, ever going to admit that

I'd cut my losses if I were you.

[Solon]

53. Well, I know what your intelligence level is, but thats only because you grossly simplify things...

You like things to be simple, like yourself, don't you?

[stillcool]

21. Who determines what 'smart' is?

if you fail reading, and are getting the shit kicked out of you every night does that mean your stupid?

[Solon]

24. Exactly, even scientists aren't exactly sure how to quantify intelligence...

not precisely, and early childhood development seems to be key. People aren't born with cognitive deficiencies most of the time, no, usually its something they develop due to their home lives, something that society CAN intervene in, and should, in addition to fully funding Head Start and other programs of that type.

[stillcool]

30. yup...Hillary was right..

it takes a village. Jobs that can sustain a family, healthcare that won't bankrupt you, an affordable home, time to parent...and a safe environment where kids can learn, and hopefully be exposed to anything and everything that will bring out their talents. Everything affects everything.

[EFerrari]

23. Because the first thing we have to do is replace the light bulbs.

No one can function very well if they are under the constant stress our schools have been under for the last thirty years. We need to start with the basics.

[RedCappedBandit]

41. Smart? What's that mean? nt

[roody]

42. I teach primary. Many students cannot reason well and do not even

recognize that a "sentence" they wrote makes no sense. They have grown up in front of screens: tv and video game. Their parents do not read to them. Their brains have not developed like children who play physically, read, and converse with their parents.

[AB_Positive]

48. Whoa now - don't blame entertainment, blame the parents.

I grew up in front of computer and tv screens, playing video games and generally being an introvert. Did that hurt me growing up? No, because I had good parenting which showed me that if I was so interested in such things I should learn how they work. Now I fix computers and program. (... and play video games)

TV and video games did not harm my education. However I did have good parenting. Don't blame the TV for being a babysitter - blame the parent that made the TV a babysitter.

I too work at a school and too often I hear this bullshit argument. It's shifting blame away from the real problem - the parents.

[roody]

52. How many hours per day did you spend in front of a screen?

Start from birth. Were there books in your life? Did your parents engage you in conversation? Did you get any physical exercise? These are all factors in brain development. Of course it is the parents' fault. Unfortunately many do not know any better.

[MadHound]

49. Ooops double post

[MadHound]

50. This is another example of why people who haven't taught, who don't know how to teach

Who don't know the pedagogy shouldn't be in charge of making policy. Nothing personal here, I'm not going off on you personally. However your statement is a great example of why we shouldn't have lay folks making education decisions. Sadly though, this happens all the time.

First off, define smart? Howard Gardner, a psychologist, came out with his theory of multiple intelligences about twenty odd years ago. This theory states that people have more than one type of intelligence, eight as a matter of fact. The traditional terms of "smart" and "dumb" simply don't apply, because people are "smart" in one or more of these intelligences and "dumb" in one or more of them also. What people generally consider "smart" are people who have good verbal and mathematical/logical intelligences. However just because people aren't "smart" in those two traditional intelligences doesn't mean that they're not smart in other intelligences. In fact they probably are. This theory of multiple intelligences has been, for the most part, accepted by experts in the field and across disciplines.

This comes into play in teaching because we have to teach to our students' strengths. Thus we tailor our lessons not only to reach those who function primarily in verbal and mathematical/logical, but also those who function primarily with spatial/visual, kinesthetic, intra and inter-personal, musical and naturalistic intelligences. In addition, teachers also make contingencies to teach those in need of remedial help, those who are advanced, and those who have various disabilities.

Granted, this is the ideal, this is what teachers strive for. However given the increasing limitations on teachers' time, due to things like NCLB, this sort of teaching is decreasing. What is needed is two fold. First, do away with NCLB and allow teachers to have the time to teach as they should and as they want to. Second, fund education in the manner that truly says that education is one of the most important priorities in our society. We pay the lip service to that ideal, but we certainly don't fund to that ideal. If we did, if we paid teachers like we pay doctors and lawyers, then we would attract more of the best and the brightest to the teaching field. If we funded education like we meant it, then we wouldn't have substandard schools that are falling apart, where entire schools are using decades old textbooks and are having to scrimp on materials. Instead, education has been the popular punching bag for government bodies from the local to the state to the national level. Tough economic times? Well hey, we'll just cut a few million from the local education budget. Looking to demonstrate you chops as a bipartisan player? Hey, we'll just ax 16 billion from a national school construction and repair program.

Sorry, but it really all does boil down to money. We have forcing schools to do more and more with less and less for decades now, and that is why they aren't functioning well. It isn't due to the students we educate, teachers have all sorts of tricks to teach all sorts of students. It isn't due to callous teachers, or lazy teachers, or however else some people want to scapegoat teachers. It isn't due to an uncaring educational bureaucracy. It is due to this one simple fact, we have failed to properly fund our education system for the past fifty years, and the cumulative effect of those decades of neglect are now crashing down on our heads. Start properly funding our education system, start paying teachers like we actually mean what we say, start rebuilding, repairing and expanding our education infrastructure and I guarantee you that the vast majority of these problems we have with education will go away.

I can also guarantee you that throwing more standardized testing, throwing merit pay, throwing anything else except money at our educational problems won't solve them, but rather, much like the case of NCLB, all it will do is make those problems worse.

It really is that simple, but sadly people would rather throw programs at the problem, scapegoat teachers, scapegoat school systems, do anything except what is needed, fund our school systems properly. Look at other education systems around the world. Teachers are well paid, well respected, and schools are well funded in places like Japan, which is ahead of us in quality of education. Hmm, perhaps we should take a lesson from that.

[spinbaby]

51. All kids deserve a fine education

Without judging them on how "smart" they are. I shudder to think what would have happened if my first-grade teacher--who thought I was retarded because I didn't speak English well--had been able to make the decision to place me in "fitting" education.

[sutz12]

54. I guess, that means No Child Left Behind.....except....... nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Okay - your kids first

:)

[raccoon]

56. No--in the US, ALL children are above average. If they're not it's the school's or the

teacher's fault.

:sarcasm: